[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[[supa_t(im)]]

@xrobx
Is 29 mana sources too much?  I mean the deck funtions on 2 land, I would think that 25-26 would be enough.

@Revvik
You kinda covered what I was going for.  There probably isn't a "standard" build of the deck, but there must be things that just work, no matter what and shouldn't be changed.

Is there a standard manabase for a this metagame full of wastelands and non-basic hate?
I'm using
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
3 Mountain
3 Forest
4 ESG

although it seems as though people have used a wide range of manabase mixes.  Thats just an example.

Also, you say that troll is a huge drain target because of his mana cost, but then you list CotH and Heretic, which both have the same mana cost.  Is there a reason?

Am I the only one who thinks that 8 slots for burn is very useful?

EDIT:  Why does everyone keep saying troll is too mana intensive, but then plays cards with the same mana cost?  I've NEVER had trouble coming up with 2 green, even facing wastelands.  And I don't see your point about drain either, especially if CotH is drained if flashed back, its the same effect.

I didn't play dryad in this deck, it was a completely different deck, but it made me really think that more burn is more necessary.

I agree about sentinel, but think of it as a green jackal pup with no drawback.  It cost virtually 1 mana, and can be played first turn with power/ESG to the same effect.  Even with that, I think elite serves as a better beater in most cases.

[xrobx]

Tim, first off, you run the exact same mana sources I do With the exact numbers...

The treetops are there as creatures, not mana producers.  Maindecking 4 rootmazes seems to have good synergy with 3/3 trample lands that only have a drawback of coming into play tapped

I'm not certain on the ideal manabase yet, I'm playtesting with the one I mentioned above.

So far ankh of mishra is proving to do quite well in my open spots.  I switched my sideboard to include 3x Elvish Lyrist (for the oath matchup), and found a spot for a 4 artifact mutation, and dropped the 4x REB.

I'm thinking about testing with a few more mountains also, and trying out fireblast.  I can throw crap into play tapped and still be able to cast a spell that does 4 damage; not bad - especially as a finisher/removal tool for the big creatures.

[MCS]

As said prior, my deck is a result of a theory put into praxis. I made major deckchanges since I was willing to listen to the good ideas that some of the members of this discussion had. Check back my first decklist (if I posted it, not sure) and the last post. The main changes are:

1. root maze - I simply don't have words how good this card is in the current metagame polluted with tendril based decks or decks that abuses workshop. This card is also a good staple against control that uses fetchlands. I haven't lost a single game (not that I've played 100s of them, but I played enough) when I managed to resolve root maze round 1. For example, you goth 1 more round to swing after they tinker out a colossus, and they have major

2. land grant - I agree on the thesis that this card is worse than wooded foothills. If I wouldn't play root maze, I would never even think about playing land grant over foothils. On the other hand, since I do play 4 root mazes, having fetchlands in this deck is realy, realy bad.

3. treetop village - my first version used mishra factory. My point was that mishra costs 1 less to activate, and for that reason that it is a much faster beat clock. I also never liked the fact that treetop enters the deck tapped. With root maze that fact is irelevant, having aditional green mana instead of colorless is good, and by the time I get finaly to swing with it, I have casted more or less my entire hand and I do have the necessary 1g to activate treetop.

4. rancor - 2 good, 2 fast. nuff said. I was stupid for not playing it before.

Troll, by my opinion, is 2 slow. You have to kill him ASAP, not giving him space to abuse mana drain. The additional change to wich I will comite is replacing incinerate with magma jet. Altought incinerate can take out jugernaut, it can't take anything else.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Heretic is a sideboard option. It should not be played maindeck. Call of the Herd is sufficient beats, but as I said, it is THE FIRST thing sided out 9/10 times. Call of the Herd is also a much better option than Troll Ascetic. On one hand, the Ascetic can't be targeted by opponents and can be regenerated. Alrighty, but you require 5 mana to cast and regenerate. If an opposing Juggernaut is bringing pressure, I would much rather topdeck Call than Ascetic. Each has it's own strong points, but the fact that you have the ability to bring back the Call for double the fun, while still only requiring a single G/2 colorless gives it the edge. You can say that it won't be hard to get double green, but trust me... I'm much happier knowing I really don't need to.

Crucible can be fun and resourceful, but honestly it doesn't have a place in this deck. I tried it out for fun, but most of the time I'd of much rather drawn a creature/ utility than it.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Crucible can be fun and resourceful, but honestly it doesn't have a place in this deck. I tried it out for fun, but most of the time I'd of much rather drawn a creature/ utility than it.

I agree.

I'm not sure this deck really needs any 3cc spells, MD or SB.  I always thought that rancor solved the juggernaut problem, well that and bolt.  If you are still worried about artifacts use Artifact Mutation (which I'm sure everyone does) not heretic.  I wasn't necessarily saying troll should be used, just asking for clarification on why suggest some 3cc spells over others.

Another thing is that I think fetchlands are still usable even with root maze.  The deck only runs 4 fetchlands, there isn't that much of a chance that you are gonna see more than 2 the entire game.  You should have 2 lands in your starting hand anyway, if one of those is a fetch, use it first, then play root maze.  Power and ESG keep things moving even if you get a fetch under maze.  Have you tried fetches with maze?  I've never had a problem, especially since most other decks use more fetches than this one.

[Revvik]

Heretic isn't really meant for bringing down Juggernauts... most of the rest of this deck currently handles that itself.

Heretic is there for one thing and one thing only - Darksteel Colossus.  And with decks like my "Iron Giant" running around, and CAB's "Gifted" just released, he may start seeing more action.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I always find that artifact mutation works fine on colossus.  Its basically the same effect since you get 11 1/1s, and you probably already have a couple beats out already.  That coupled with burn doesn't make colossus too scary anymore.

If he comes out turn 1, well not even heretic can really help there.

Also, if you are worried about colossus Fractured Loyalty has worked in the past, might be worth testing.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Revvik is right. Heretic was put in because I really hate an early Colossus. I put them in SPECIFICALLY against his "Iron Giant" deck. Artifact Mutation is nice, but since I already ran them to no avail, I wanted extra beats... Like most slots in this deck, it was a metagame hate choice. I've thought about abolishing everything over cc2... Maybe. Right now, for me, that's only 2 cards, so it's not terribly important.

[waSP]

Heretic is a card you should run maindeck if you expect to see a lot of artifact decks; maybe somewhere around 25-30% of the field.  It's very strong for those cases.  I don't think there are many cases where it should be sideboarded.  You can play cards that will be more utilitarian in your board.

The problem with Artifact Mutation on Colossus is that it won't always work.  They might have the counter that will stall you long enough for them to win.  Heretic is a proactive answer (that can be rancor'd).  Again it's for very specific known metagames.

Fetchlands and Root Maze are not mutually exclusive.  You can run both and it should RARELY be problematic.  Revealing your complete game plan to your opponent is a much worse option.

You guys can drop another Taiga.  It won't effect your games.  I don't see why we are stubbornly clinging to the idea of running so many Taiga's.  You want to lose to Burninator?

Troll Ascetic is about the only chance this has against an aggressive madness deck (maybe Cursed Scroll, but that seems to have been cut for the most part).  Something to keep in mind.

I tried adding more hate than I had thought was the limit in the past and found something useful.  You have to be careful how much hate you run.  The deck loses its potency after about 11-13 hate cards main (I had 4 Null Rod, 3 Root Maze, 2 Heretic, 3 Naturalize, 1 Artifact Mutation).  This would have been nice if I'd faced Oath and Workshops all day, but alas, I drew the budget aggro and ended up out of contention early.

I want to make a case for having least 8 burn spells.  They tend to never just sit in your hand in the losing games (unless you're playing very reactively).  They make all your creatures better.

[Revvik]

If you consider the odds of a first turn Tinker -> Colossus, then you just shouldn't worry and admit that that kind of thing happens.  Like a first turn Yawgmoth's Bargain.  But an early Viashino Heretic means the Tinkering deck has to find another route to victory, or be burned out.  

Iron Giant's alternate Morphling route is sometimes too slow, and CAB's "Gifted" can't always answer the Heretic quickly enough, buying time for R/G to smash through a win.  Keep in mind, a lot of the time disruption like the kind R/G has isn't meant to permanently answer a threat, it's to open a window.

Heheh Hell, the only thing that can really stop a first turn Tinker is Red Elemental Blast, if you went first and left the mana open for it.  And they don't have Force of Will.  Don't think I'm discouraging the deck or anything, Tinker/Colossus doesn't always spell GG.

[Revvik]

Apologies for the double-post, but waSP brought up a couple points that at the very least deserve reiteration:

Heretic is a card you should run maindeck if you expect to see a lot of artifact decks; maybe somewhere around 25-30% of the field.  It's very strong for those cases.  I don't think there are many cases where it should be sideboarded.  You can play cards that will be more utilitarian in your board.

Thank you!  Heretic makes for strong games against Workshop decks, both aggro and prison, in today's generic metagames (especially ours).

The problem with Artifact Mutation on Colossus is that it won't always work.  They might have the counter that will stall you long enough for them to win.  Heretic is a proactive answer (that can be rancor'd).  Again it's for very specific known metagames.

Not to mention that Viashino Heretic repeats itself.  And if it's played when the Tinker player doesn't have the counterspell, but saves his Tinker for when he does...

Fetchlands and Root Maze are not mutually exclusive.  You can run both and it should RARELY be problematic.  Revealing your complete game plan to your opponent is a much worse option.

It's problematic for the other player.  I did some testing against Nick recently: Root Maze did its job and then some, stalling my Pernicious Deed for a good three turns.  If Root Maze wasn't out, then I could've played the Deed and nuked everything including his Boa, and won from there.

Troll Ascetic is about the only chance this has against an aggressive madness deck (maybe Cursed Scroll, but that seems to have been cut for the most part).  Something to keep in mind.

I think this statement has some merit - more than 4 regenerating creatures can hold off the hordes of Madness long enough for a chance at winning (6/6 Wurm token?  Does it trample?   ).  However, I'm not sure there's enough Madness running around to justify this.  Like was mentioned before, in metagaming, this is a choice that has to be considered.  And if there is some incredibly strong Madness deck that is viable, someone - PM it to me.  I LOVE madness!  

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Yeah, maindeck Root Maze isn't bad at all... I may keep it around.

Heretic is now stuck in my mind. I might run 2 MD but that messes up my mana curve a bit... My metagame just doesn't justify it. Workshop is everywhere, but to be honest, I'd rather run something that could be decent against Workshop, but still good against other decks... I hate dead draws. Heretic could have that problem... Could being quite an understatment. As for Tinker/ Colossus.... Bah. Tis bullshit anyways. Unless theres a douche devoting an entire deck to that one play, I don't worry about it too much.... Although he really gets lucky with his draws  

[waSP]

I was.. um.. sort of half implying you probably shouldn't run Troll Ascetic.  Yeah.

Now I'd like to bring up the major weakness of the deck.  It's good at being really good against a certain portion of a metagame (and this is entirely dependant on how you build it), but you will never be able to cover the entire thing unless it is a) very bad, b) very incestuous.  The best you can hope is to get really good matchups all day long (if you make the right calls, statistics may come to work for you).  Don't try to hit home runs with the deck, it just doesn't work.  Aim for top 8, but not the prize.

Maybe we should discuss each matchup type individually.  That way people will know that Tormod's Crypt is pretty good against Dragon and comes in useful against a number of other decks, but shouldn't be played unless you expect Madness.

[MCS]

If you play root maze, you already have a great tool against dragon. Basicaly, if he tries to go off under root maze, it's a draw. If you fear the matchup, just mulligan down to maze and you have a sure draw except for the situation where he has a fow in first hand.

Regarding fetches I disagree. I tested and played for real with fetches and with land grant. Land grant is better if you play with root maze. The idea behind this deck is to kill your opponent as soon as possible, installing a possible drawback that can possibly slow you down for an aditional turn isn't a good idea. And playing ankh of mishra + fetches like somebody sugested is definetly not the right way to go.

Regarding the part of revealing him the plan to kill him with small creature and burn. Guess what, that's no revelation for him.

Scenario 1: OK, I have bolt, kird and grim in hand
Scenario 2: OK, I have river boa, elite, magma jet and rancor in hand
Scenario 3: ...

I mean, com'n, he knows you're playing with little mans that will kill him, and kill him fast if he doesn't combo/lock you/deed you in no time. I first would play fetches over LG, but under root maze fetches are just weaker.

You should always play 4 taigas. If he goes wasteland on taiga round 1, it is ok for you. You have casted your creature for the turn anyway, and you had a free LD from your opponent. And you always need the versatility that no basic land can offer you (you can have a kird, a boa, a bolt or an elite, you need both red and green mana).

[Gothmog]

I love Land Grant, but one heavily played card makes it unplayable right now: Trinisphere.  To play Land Grant you take out 4 lands (or you're losing spell slots), making you much more vulnerable to Trinisphere locks.  I know we have ESG, but I get uncomfortable playing so few lands with Trinisphere unrestricted.

[xrobx]

First off...

And playing ankh of mishra + fetches like somebody sugested is definetly not the right way to go.

This was never a suggestion, it was an idea I had for playtesting with for my empty 2 spots in the deck in case you didn't read, and besides that, you can easily play around ankh with a fetchland; especially in this deck.

Regarding the part of revealing him the plan to kill him with small creature and burn. Guess what, that's no revelation for him.

There's something called game 2 and 3.  Who cares about game 1, it is basically a toss up.  Against many decks, them going first means you lose.  Unfortunatly, unless you have the right hate maindecked, you cannot hate out every deck and therefore you have to be weak against some deck out there.  The idea of land grant being bad is true for 2 reasons; first, the trinisphere reason, second, the reveal reason.  3sphere is very obvious, so I'm not going to explain.  The reason you don't want to reveal your hand seems to me to be quite obvious, as often times you'll sb in your tech against your opponent and not want him to know you have a backup REB for his fow to your artifact mutation, or whatever the case may be.

You should always play 4 taigas. If he goes wasteland on taiga round 1, it is ok for you. You have casted your creature for the turn anyway, and you had a free LD from your opponent. And you always need the versatility that no basic land can offer you (you can have a kird, a boa, a bolt or an elite, you need both red and green mana).

I didn't really make any sense of this statement, but from what I gathered you're trying to say 4 taigas are required, because you don't care if they destroy your land, because you need to draw into red and green and you can't do that without 4 taigas.  This is simply not true, and another reason fetchland is much better than land grant.  If you NEED a certain color, why not fetch it out specifically?  Most of the time, you'll either have forest+fetch, or mountain+fetch, or some combination therein.  It is a very unintelligent play to fetch a taiga in most cases, unless it is needed.  Why would you rather be 4x more susceptable to nonbasic hate when you don't have to be?  There is only 1 stripmine (always), and 4 wastes in most nonbasic-landhating t1 decks.  Not only that, but the chances of incurring an opponent with a first turn crucible soon after followed by wasteland is quite possible.

As suggested from an earlier post, I do believe a deck vs deck analysis is a good idea.  Some matches are quite hard to win, and sb'ing should be made appropriately to deal with these decks; of course respective to each individuals meta.  Everyone on this post, I believe, should really pair up testing against oath, as it is popular and is one of the hardest matchups for this deck.  Burn should not be ignored, as often times I feel the need for the extra 1-4 damage close to the end of the game, and it isn't always there (if they manage to take control of the board by say, I don't know, chalice for 1? and you have no shaman down, or they keg/EE for 1).

[[supa_t(im)]]

What if he counters the land grant?  So now he knows your hand AND you don't get your land.  Kinda sucks.

So do people think Magma Jet is good now?  Click on the link I posted on the first page, in that thread almost everybody hated it.  You guys sure are fickel.

Against Oath I find that turn 1 root maze is awesome, especially if you are able to drop a wasteland and play the maze with ESG or mox.  Having 8 burn cards and 4 grim lavamancer helps here as well, since you can then take out SotN with bolt + jet/lavamancer.  I also found that MDing 4 Naturalize is very helpful.  At most it takes out Oath of Druids, at the very least it takes out a mox.  It can also be used to take out pesky artifacts game 1 like 3sphere, or even juggernaut.

Those are some observations on an afternoon playing against Oath.

I have been using 4 Tiaga in my most recent build, but it can easily go down to 3 or even 2 with fetchlands.  I'm thinking about going down to 2, although it really does help to have taigas for kird apes and river boas.

[the boogie man]

I think that 3-4 maindeck rootmazes are tech, just because fetchlands are so common and a lot of decks woul be crippled by them.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I think that 3-4 maindeck rootmazes are tech, just because fetchlands are so common and a lot of decks woul be crippled by them.

Yes, MD root maze seems to be the MD hate card of choice.  It not only makes fetchlands a pain, but it hurts storm combo and all but kills dragon.  Since combo is a horrible matchup for an aggro deck (even aggro control) its good to have versatile combo hate MD.

I can't do matchup analysis, but what I can say from experience is that the more hate you have against combo the better.  I run 4 pillar and 3 null rod SB with 4 root maze MD for this reason.  Each other card also serves against other decks, rod goes in incase slavery, pillar goes in against control-ish matchups.  Burn usually comes out for pillar and null rod.

As for Oath, I find that they really don't like rootmaze either, since their orchards come into play tapped.  Which can be a good thing because I can have my wasteland waiting for it.  4 MD naturalize improves the matchup b/c I don't want the oath to trigger, and if it triggers, I don't want it to trigger again.  4 REB SB I have found effective for forcing through the maze or naturalize, so I think that they still deserve a slot.

With 8 MD burn the deck really pwns any variation of Fish and random aggro.  It also gives you game against FCG, if it ever sees play again.  I've already mentioned in an earlier post why its good against Oath.

My SB consists of these cards:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Null Rod

I think thats effective for a well rounded metagame.  Probably needs some work though.

[the boogie man]

I would run
3 pyrostatic pillar
2 null rod
3 red elemental blast
4 artifact mutation
3 naturalize.

And I think that the land grants should be maindecked as to avoid the plethora of rootmazes in the main. Not only that, you're slowing them down while you still have things like treetop village. If you ran goblin bombardment in the side, you coud realistsically never be oathed against, you could ping with the spirit and activate the land. but don't run goblin bombment.

[maxxx]

 I'm all confused. Could you post the updated decklist please ?

[[supa_t(im)]]

@maxxx
There isn't an updated decklist per se.  We are kinda still working that one out.  Its such a metagamable deck that there might not be a standard decklist.  For most updated I guess you could look on the previous page for some decklists.

@Willow_Whisperer
Fetchlands aren't that problematic with root maze for this deck.  It only runs 4 and has no draw engine so the likelyhood of drawing more than 2 a game is relatively low.  With that the deck can function fine with 2 land, and even decently with 1 with power and ESG.  Sine running more basics seems to be more favored, I think fetchlands even with maze are the way to go.

As for the Oath matchup, the best thing you can do is to try to race them.  Treetop village and goblin bombardment isn't going to cut it since they have a huge amount of countermagic and wastelands.  The MVPs in this matchup are river boa and rancor.  River boa almost always gets though, and rancor can make even their orchard tokens into formidable fighters.  Once again, MD naturalize really helps here.

[Revvik]

 I'm all confused. Could you post the updated decklist please ?

Think of it as customizing your own from what was previously suggested - using the cards mentioned that best suit you (this creature base, this group of hate cards, this manabase).  and if you come across any that work well and haven't been mentioned before, feel free to post them.

Land Grant

We're better than this...

Magma Jet

...and this...

[NicolaeAlmighty]

My sideboard is kind of odd right now... I just can't find a one card slot to fill without going over what I consider a balanced 14 cards.

2 Artifact Mutation (for my meta, I run two main)
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Ground Seal
3 Null Rod
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Right now I've filled the empty slot with something mediocre... I think it's a Tormod's Crypt. I played REB for the longest time until I realized I was near never siding them in... I thought I'd experiment without them. I don't have anything against Oath, though, but as I've said before... I firmly believe that is a match I can win on my own.

[xrobx]

@nicolae,

2 Artifact Mutation (for my meta, I run two main)
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Ground Seal
3 Null Rod
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

This sideboard seems a little janky due to the low number of occuring cards.  Don't get me wrong, you made some very nice choices and of course to each his own (regarding your metagame).  I've been finding that R&R just doesn't deserve a spot anymore, instead Artifact Mutation is a great helper to your game plan.  If they go 3sphere, crucible (in a few turns), yes it is nice to take both down, but running mainboard rootmaze means 3sphere doesn't hurt nearly as much, neither does crucible+wasteland.  Hence, why not shell out 3 1/1s that can only speed the game up in your favor?

As for groundseal, I don't find this card useful whatsoever in my build.  Against combo, pillar and mainboard rootmaze is often enough, and depending on the type of combo, null rod can also make it very tough for them to get a win condition down.  I'd drop all ground seals and bulk up on null rod and pillar.  

As for oath, it is a hard matchup and if you have room, you SHOULD try to deal with it.  Elvish lyrist is a contender here, as is naturalize.  Many people are running mainboard naturalize nowadays due to the heavy presence of artifacts/oath.

My sb is something like this:

4x Artifact Mutation
3x Null Rod
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Naturalize
2x Elvish Lyrist

There is more oath here than MWS decks, that is why I chose lyrist.  In the case that oath #s < MWS decks #s, run more naturalize and rod.

Furthermore, Viashino Heretic seems like a very good choice in a field of artifact based decks, and I've not yet tested him.  If someone could try this guy out at their next local tourny and report, it would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know if he'd be more effective than the already present naturalizes (they seem more playable and less of a dead card), but throw a rancor on heretics back and it can inflict damage atleast.

Lastly, I've being fooling around with my deck and currently am running 3 mainboard ankh of mishras.  I suggested them before, and from testing, they've proved VERY helpful.  Often the opponent will try to force in lands and take damage, not realizing how fast RG is at delivering damage.  This accelerates your ability to kill the opponent, and the synergy level of this deck rises significantly with the inclusion of ankhs.  Not to mention, with your opponent running fetches, chances are your 5 damage vs. them will cripple them, and they'll run into even MORE mana denial than you already present.  Let's not forget, many decks use basics yes, but tons of decks run duals, and almost every deck that runs either duals or basics runs fetches!  Try it out for yourself.  Again, I know I run fetches WITH rootmaze and WITH ankhs.  Don't be retarded.  Play your fetch first, then grab a basic, then esg out a rootmaze, then drop your shaman/lavamancer/2nd maze/etc.  A common play error with this deck is that people will forget to drop their bait before their threat, which is not a good idea.  Often times I'll go mountain, shaman (countered), then ESG maze.  If they do manage to FOW again, you've reduced the likelyness of them having ANYTHING relevant in their hand.  If they don't counter the maze, you're probably set.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Good point on the Ground Seals. I kept them in because I had forgotten about putting the Root Mazes main... but what to sacrifice for the Ankh? Honestly I don't like the thought of sacrificin too much beats for utility... I would probably drop my Call of the Herds and... one other thing... Not sure. Or maybe I'd stick to two. Problem with that is the consistency. I'll need to re-evaluate my build and do some playtesting with my group tonight... Ankh does seem fun, though. I'll get back to you with the results.

[the boogie man]

I still don't believe that fetchland+root maze/ankh of mishra is good for this deck. Honestly, the land grant should be in the deck.  What are you going to hide in your hand that would change their plan that you wouldn't already have in play? and It does allows you to run basics. For example, you could run this as a mana base:

1 black lotus.
1 mox G
1 mox R

3 taiga
2 forest
1 mountain
4 treetop village
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 elvish spirit guide

just as an example. That would allow you to skimp on lands and use cards that thin your deck for free, and avoid your own ankh and root maze. plus, treerop village is really good with root maze, all but eliminating the disadvantage of coming into play tapped.

[Revvik]

@nicolae,

2 Artifact Mutation (for my meta, I run two main)
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Ground Seal
3 Null Rod
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Did you notice that in addition to the two sideboarded Mutations, he has two main?  Running that many of each is nice.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Land Grant is so horrible! "Ok, I see you have no other land in your hand, I'll Force of Will." "I'll Mana Drain." You damn near can't counter a fecthland. That is why I will not run Land Grant. It doesn't have to resolve for them to see your hand... But we all know that. Fetchlands have bad synergy with Maze it's true... but this deck can work around it. I like the thought of Ankh putting the opposing deck on an even more pressured timeline.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Generally I don't like to post in these kind of forums, especially after it's already been through ten pages of topics.  But after going to waterbury, I was thinking to myself "R/G Hate would be a really good deck to play for" Thinking there would be tons of slavery there.  Well I was right.  I did not decide to play R/G however, I played my typical 5/3 build with a few changes (mainboard chalices, platinum angel, and mindslaver).  I caught a few unlucky breaks with my matches and ended up dropping.

But my question is, now that CS is on even more of a rise then it once was, and is not the definitive "deck to beat", what do you guys think of this list, and tell me any changes you would make, I think it could be very solid in the current metagame.  Here is what we have goin on.

Hatechoface - A TST creation

Beatchoface: 15
4 Kird ape
4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

Hatechoface: 10
3 Nullrod
3 Naturalize
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Price of Progress

Manachoface: 21
4 Taiga
4 Fetchlands
4 wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 mountains
3 Forest
1 Mox emerald
1 Mox ruby

Hollaatchaboy:
1 Wheel of fortune
4 Rancor
2 Lava dart
1 Regrowth
2 Crucible of worlds
4 Lightning bolt


Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Piller
4 Chalice of the void
4 REB's
3 Ground seal



The sideboard is adjustable, The decks main weakness is obviously it's combo matchup, I think with the 4 pillars and the 4 chalices it gives it a chance to win.  I'm also skeptical on the creature base.  Anything better to play? This deck is brutal to alot of the major decks in the format, and maybe something to watch out for.