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Author Topic: Can U/G madness Adapt to beat Oath?  (Read 7053 times)
BreathWeapon
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« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2004, 09:10:26 pm »

What about replacing the Fetch Lands with Land Grants, and removing the Null Rods for Root Mazes? I'm finding that everything Null Rod did, Root Maze just does better. The only serious problem I have with the card is its additionl Tempo concerns with Daze. But, if your using Annul instead of Daze then that argument is irrelevant.

Root Maze + Annul vs Stax sounds huge.

I'm trying it out in U/g Grow ATM, and for a budget deck it manages to hold its own.

Also worth consideration is ESG, it allows you to activate Circular Logic a turn earliear after Land, Tap, ESG, Mongrel or Aquamoeba
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E Face
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2004, 10:58:13 pm »

one of the things that has come up in several posts is the card drawing issue in doomhed's build. one card that i have played around with is standstill, and it has some promising plays when you have board advantage with creatures, which is fairly easy to obtain with madness. and while brainstorm is a good card, i generally tend to believe that it is more suitable for combo decks, where digging three deeper or protecting your key card from a duress/unmask is far more important, which is why i would rather run careful study, which creates another madness/flashback enabler, and makes it easier to support deep analysis, which is in my opinion very strong for the blue green madness deck.

the whole daze vs. CL debate is a good one, and with the current onslaught of combo with doomsday, TPS, and even some dragon being played alot in many metagames, i think daze has more upside with its alternate casting cost, because more often than not one mana is more than the combo player can afford when comboing out. it also has the added bonus of being stronger against a turn one trinisphere assuming the workshop player only has MWS for mana on turn one.
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NicolaeAlmighty
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« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2004, 02:36:12 am »

I agree that Daze is a pretty good idea. That doesn't hinder the accel that Madness sometimes requires does it?
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doomhed
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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2004, 09:48:55 pm »

Quote from: E Face
one of the things that has come up in several posts is the card drawing issue in doomhed's build. one card that i have played around with is standstill, and it has some promising plays when you have board advantage with creatures, which is fairly easy to obtain with madness.

well, this is huge, so I have to split this up. Standstill was good in fish. it had manlands and it had Faeries. this is not something that will fit into madness. the cost does not fit into the curve well and it would have to take the place of cards you dont want to remove.
Quote from: E Face
while brainstorm is a good card, i generally tend to believe that it is more suitable for combo decks, where digging three deeper or protecting your key card from a duress/unmask is far more important, which is why i would rather run careful study, which creates another madness/flashback enabler, and makes it easier to support deep analysis, which is in my opinion very strong for the blue green madness deck.

Careful Study is CRAP. it is card disadvantage, it only digs down by 2, and it has no synergy with fetches. when you use this you pretty much force yerself into running slower cards like Deep anal and Roar of the Wurm. this is not Type 2. Brainstorm is only played in almost every deck with blue, so of course it is not useful outside of combo. Please. you need the instant speed card drawing and hand filtering. this cannot be done with careful study. I also Have 11 madness outlets. I dont think not having the studies will hurt me.
Quote from: E Face
the whole daze vs. CL debate is a good one, and with the current onslaught of combo with doomsday, TPS, and even some dragon being played alot in many metagames, i think daze has more upside with its alternate casting cost, because more often than not one mana is more than the combo player can afford when comboing out. it also has the added bonus of being stronger against a turn one trinisphere assuming the workshop player only has MWS for mana on turn one.

This is obsurd. you cannot afford the tempo loss of the Island.  the Idea of a combo played being a mana short of going off is also laughable. most current combos go off with alot of mana sources in play and/or mana in pool. Circular logic is godly against any deck when it comes online. I may have reduced it to 3, but I would never cut it entirely. Also, most times there will be a mox in play when they drop a 3Sphere. ALSO daze is useless when drawn under a trinisphere, as opposed to circular logic, which will still stem the bleeding at 3 mana.
Quote from: Breath Weopon
What about replacing the Fetch Lands with Land Grants, and removing the Null Rods for Root Mazes? I'm finding that everything Null Rod did, Root Maze just does better. The only serious problem I have with the card is its additionl Tempo concerns with Daze. But, if your using Annul instead of Daze then that argument is irrelevant.
Root Maze + Annul vs Stax sounds huge.

the Root maze is actually a card we are testing right now. there is no way in hell I would ever drop fetches for land grants. I lose my bluffing abilities, my blue fetching ability, and I gain 4 life and 4 counterable lands? where is there any improvement in that? its also harder to counter a fetchland then it is to counter a land grant. I think ESG is not good in any powered Build. if you are not using power, I would run a lotus petal and 2 ESG or 3 ESG.
Quote from: NicolaeAlmighty
agree that Daze is a pretty good idea. That doesn't hinder the accel that Madness sometimes requires does it?
Yes, yes it does.
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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2004, 11:35:17 pm »

Quote from: doomhed

Quote from: Breath Weopon
What about replacing the Fetch Lands with Land Grants, and removing the Null Rods for Root Mazes? I'm finding that everything Null Rod did, Root Maze just does better.

the Root maze is actually a card we are testing right now. there is no way in hell I would ever drop fetches for land grants. I lose my bluffing abilities, my blue fetching ability, and I gain 4 life and 4 counterable lands? where is there any improvement in that? its also harder to counter a fetchland then it is to counter a land grant.


The reason he suggested cutting fetchlands is because in the same post he advocated running Root Maze. Are you saying you're testing Root Maze with fetches? That's pretty sub-par for a deck that cares about tempo more than most other decks in the format.
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doomhed
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« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2004, 11:56:19 am »

if I require using land grants to use root maze effectively, it will not be something I will be using. land grant is too risky for me. I have seen it ne the card that kills both belcher decks and that kills oshowa stompy.  one countered land grant is pretty much game over alot of the time.

We had 2 testing builds going, and the build without root maze did better against 4/5 color stax, whereas the other fared better against monored and U/Red varieties. considereing that the 4/5 color versions will be alot more popular due to sheer brokenness, we wont be maindecking the mazes or the land grants.
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Team Batman- Molesting Buffets Since 1982
Quote from: J0bril
I've NEVER seen so many dumbasses gravitate to a single point in space more than this place...it's a scientific marvel
Placed 2 Members Top 16 Waterbury IV- Fish/UG Madness (1 Me)
Placed 1 Member Top 8 Waterbury V Day 2- U/G Madness (Me)
Placed 1 Member Top 8 Waterbury VI-U/G Madness
Placed 1 Member Top 8 Waterbury VII- Guano
Placed 1 Member Top 16 Waterbury VIII- Guano (Me)
Can you say Pattern?
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