Optimizing TPS

[Negator13]

As I've made a point of repeatedly stating in alot of the [Results] threads from Europe, TPS is doing extemely well over there. It's been getting 2 T8's per tourney on average. What's more is each build differs by only 5-6 cards. This leads me to believe that we are very close to finding the Promised Land of deck construction, "The Optimal Build". *cue forboding music*

Judging from the commonalities between the vast majority of successful builds, as well as my own (limited) experience with TPS, I think it is safe to say that there are a whopping 53 core cards that are almost uncuttable. They are:

2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

(Note that in some winning decklists, small discrepencies were sometimes shown, such as 3 Island/1 Swamp, or no Time Spiral. However, all of these cards and quantities were present in 90% of recent T8'ing TPS buids.)

However, the last 7 cards are a completely different story from the other 53.

Here are the configurations some T8 lists with the above core cards used to flesh out their decks:

Rasmus Nielsen, 3-4 place:

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Frantic Search
1 Tendrils of Agony


Andrea Giorgini, first place:

1 Flooded Strand
1 Cunning Wish
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Deep Analysis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild

Luca Lo Bianco, seventh place: (Didn't run Mana Vault or Windfall)

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Flooded Strand
1 Cunning Wish
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Rebuild
1 Time Walk
1 Echoing Truth
1 Skeletal Scrying

Kenny Öberg, First place:

1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Rebuild
1 Cunning Wish
1 Time Walk

Hero 't Mannetje, Second Place: (Ran only 1 Swamp)

1 Volcanic Island
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Rebuild
1 Time Walk
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Frantic Search
1 Lim Dul's Vault

Kurt vd Meeren, 4th Place:

1 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Time Walk
1 Cunning Wish
1 Darksteel Colossus



As you can see, there are definite trends in what cards these people used to fill out their decks. Most of the decks used, in addition to the 23 mana sources and 30 non-mana cards in the core list:

1-2 Land
2 Bounce spells
1-2 Supplemental Draw
1 Cunning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

The emboldened, specific cards, Cunning Wish and the 2nd Tendrils, were present in almost every build. Let's start a 2nd list of additional cards to add to our core list:

1 Cunning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

First, lets take a look at the additional lands used. Every single build ran at least 1 additional land. Among those used are:

Flooded Strand
Library of Alexandria
Island
Volcanic Island (When running Wheel of Fortune)

Its important to note that the builds running LoA ran it as their 25th mana source, and that most of the builds ran a Flooded Strand as their 24th card. Therefore, let's add 1 Flooded strand to our list of core cards, and keep LoA in mind as a possible 25th.

1 Flooded Strand
1 Cunning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

Next, the bounce spells. This is always a touchy subject among TPS players and is usually passed off as a metagame call or personal preference. However, 1 Rebuild was present in nearly every list. The other bounce spell was pretty much split between Chain of Vapor, Hurkyll's Recall, and Rebuild. This really is a personal preference and doesn't have too much impact on performance, so we'll leave it at that.

1 Flooded Strand
1 Cunning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rebuild
1 [Bounce Spell]


Now, on to the last category, the Supplemental draw. This is where we get huge discrepencies. Note that if 24 land (and artifact mana) was used, 2 draw spells were included, and with 25 land, 1 draw spell used. The list of these draw spells includes:

Wheel of Fortune
Gifts Ungiven
Frantic Search
Lim Dul's Vault
Deep Analysis
Fact or Fiction
Time Walk
Skeletal Scrying

This category of cards is the hardest to decide, and that's where I'm asking for your opinions and advice. Using my new set of 57 "core" cards, I want to know what you personally would use as the last Bounce spell, Draw Spell, and Land/Draw Spell. As of now I am using a second Rebuild, 1 Fact or Fiction, and 1 Gifts Ungiven. I like having 2 Rebuilds and Gifts is testing out OK, but FoF is a very shaky slot for me.

For reference, here is my list of core slots:

2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Rebuild
1 Cunning Wish
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bounce Spell
1 Land/Draw Spell
1 Draw Spell

[Fominian]

In my experience with the deck and our meta:

Its not the deck, its the person...

I have regularly taken my TPS to the T8 time and time again where I live, and its not because I have augmented my deck overly to counter the meta, its just that I have months upon months of experience of play time with this deck (it currently being my favorite, I average at least half an hour a day just playing around with this deck).

Mind you this is not saying that I haven't made augmentations to it - for I have, but its nothing in the form of meta hate, its more of a.... I need this now and its a last ditch sort of effort deal...

Excluding that one change, the list is all and all pretty standard.  It is fast enough to keep up with prison decks, and a well-timed Rebuild/HRecall is all you require to win the match generally. As for Workshop Aggro, its generally just the speed of pumping out nasties that is the problem, but again similar strategy is required.  Oath, it comes down to a control war sometimes, but with the right SB this is no again should be no problem for you games 2 & 3.

Basically what I am saying is that TPS is just one of those decks, that in the right hands, will always do well,  and it will forever be around….

[Mixing Mike]

I would say at least 1 Rebuild and 1 Hurkyl's are uncuttable.  Stax is still played, and those are your only answers outside of palying around their lock parts, which is obviously not a simple task by far.

From what I've seen, Wheel and Frantic Search are fairly good, the latter being amazing more often than not.  Needless to say it's a OMG OOOPS card with Academy out, but it still holds very well on it's own.

[Negator13]

Personally I like to just run 2 Rebuilds instead of 1 Recall 1 Rebuild, because bouncing my own artifacts is always beneficial, and the extra CC doesn't matter under 3sphere.

This my current build, if anyone wants to know:



2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Timetwister
2 Rebuild
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Frantic Search
1 Cunning Wish
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Time Spiral
1 Mind's Desire
4 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Memory Jar

Sideboard:

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
2 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Misdirection
2 Skeletal Scrying

I'm kind of uncomfortable with the Gifts Ungiven and the Frantic Search MD, and having Skeletal Scrying and FoF SB. I wanted multiple Scryings in the board to be able to bring in against control, but I didnt' feel comfortable not having FoF SB if I excluded it from the maindeck.

[LSD]

Personally I don´t like Rebuild and 1 Hurkyl's Recall because you don´t need them for your stormcount and you Cunning Wish does  the same job against WS.TPS wants to be the Control against other Combo decks so the option to cunning wish for stifle or BEB would fit into that theme.You can also cast a tricky meditate against a smokestack or Tangle Wire.


Also with that many Bombs Gifts of Ungiven would be really good.During my testing when I resolved Gifts it was like:"Next Turn I will win because I get 2 Bombs I have FoW and Duress so I will resolve at least 1 of the bombs and win".


And finally Skeltal Scrying seems to be a lot more powerfull than Deep Analyses because DA just says "drain me".Even if you flashback it you already spent 6 Mana on it so you probably won´t win that turn and next turn your oppenent will try to get a Huge Card Advantage with all the Mana he has from the drained DA.

[mongrel12]

Another rather significant option that hasnt been discussed here is Cranial Extraction--the card says 'oops i win' in so many matchups that i am currently testing 1 maindeck, as well as in the sideboard for a Cunning Wish target.

Its also very probable that there is no 'optimal' configuration for TPS, as the deck is extremely customizable depending on the metagame.

[Mixing Mike]

Personally I don´t like Rebuild and 1 Hurkyl's Recall because you don´t need them for your stormcount and you Cunning Wish does  the same job against WS.

You'd be suprised.  Rebuild cycles, which is very handy, espically with Vamp and Mystical.  Also, by not running Wish, you have room for Colossus maindeck, which will steal more than enough games on it's own to make it worth running.

I don't really like gifts Ungiven.  I'd rather just draw all 4 cards I'd take with it then only tutor for 2 of them.

[Marton]

Another rather significant option that hasnt been discussed here is Cranial Extraction--the card says 'oops i win' in so many matchups that i am currently testing 1 maindeck, as well as in the sideboard for a Cunning Wish target.

You cannot cunning wish for a cranial extraction as it is not an instant. If cunning wish would do that, everyone and their mom would put yawgmoth's will in their sidebord and long death would rise again, resulting in cunning wish following burning wish' route, to the restricted list.

[Sean Ryan]

Good discussion.  I've been trying to optimize TPS and I have made similiar observations. When playing TPS I try and let the deck build to critical mass around turns 3-5 with duress or FOW backup.  It's a paradoxical mix of letting the deck play itself and making some very crucial decisions that will either win or lose you the game.    

I'm currently testing the Wheel and loving it!  The Wheel is the final bomb that TPS needs, not the other semi-powerful choices like Frantic Search, Fact or Fiction, ect.  However, I think it is a mistake to run more than 14 lands with 28-29 manasources total.  

2 swamps
2 Islands
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 LOA???

I'm debating whether to run the LOA or the 4th Sea.  LOA is great in the control match but blows elsewhere.  Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond was cut some time ago b/c. they only helped when going off but seldom before.  

I agree that 2 Rebuild are neccessary in this meta but I also think that you want something to bounce Oath's fatties in game one - hence the Cunning Wish for Chain of Vapor.

How has running only 1 Tendrils been for some of you?  I'm running 2 Tendrils main with a Colossus in the side.  With both Welder and Oath dominating having the Colossus main seems unwise but...it does win games all by itself.  

What has everyone been using to combat Oath games 2 & 3?  My SB looks like this:
2 Misdirection
1 Stiffle
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Coffin Purge
2 Hydroblast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Colossus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gilded Drake
1 Engineered Explosives

LMK what you think.
Thanks
Sean

[Whatever Works]

I hate Wheel in the maindeck... it just goes directly against the entire theory of TPS by adding a 3rd color, and tends to be hard to cast and clunky...

Gift's Ungiven is an incredible bomb and the fact that its an instant just wins games... it can be soooo badly abused after you learn all the little tricks that are possible with the card.

2 Rebuild is the right number in my mind for the maindeck... i find that rebuild is just stronger then hurkyl's because you can use it to get back a tapped vault etc... the fact that it cycles alone makes it better then Hurkyl's recall game 1 if your not playing against stax etc...

In testing LoA is just awful... i rarely have a full hand or would want to have a full hand... i want to spend my first turn casting duress etc... I also often use my FoW turn 1, and then it becomes just another usless mana source... TPS isnt normal combo but that doesnt mean you can make a control card good in it.

Cranial Extraction is a usful sideboard card, and it should be left at that... its a terrible card in the maindeck, because against a deck that your unsure of you dont want to spend 4 mana guessing on what deck/strat there deck focus's around...

Windfall... I hated this card in testing because i like to drop my hand out fast... and the decks that BEAT ME  ---> Drop there entire hands out fast too... so this makes this cards advantage turn into a disadvange including the fact that you spent 3 mana, and are likely going to play a mox and then just pass the turn while they got a new (though most likely small hand)...

Frantic Search... This card is suprisingly strong... even without an academy on the board. If you stall with TPS your probably holding a hand full of lands because you ran out of threats because the deck runs more disruption then most combo decks... this card can help draw an I WIN card and let you pitch the lands... and your still untapped to cast these bombs late game... This card was restricted for a good reason.

Currently my build is almost identical to negator13 accept i dropped windfall for deep analysis which is incredibly as long as it doesnt get mana drained (which is a big if)... i would run 2 if i could find room...

Im curious if the deck really needs so much land... Personally I always like to run the absolute min. and i probably will drop the 5th fetch land or drop an underground sea and a basic land and then add a 6th fetch and another draw spell...

Learning to muligan properly with this deck is 100x more important than the last 1-2 card choices of this deck overall IMHO.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

Whatever Woks wrote:

Windfall... I hated this card in testing because i like to drop my hand out fast... and the decks that BEAT ME ---> Drop there entire hands out fast too... so this makes this cards advantage turn into a disadvange including the fact that you spent 3 mana, and are likely going to play a mox and then just pass the turn while they got a new (though most likely small hand)...

So you dont like wheel, which I think is insane in TPS and is well worth putting in 1 Volc, and you dont like windfall.  How do you plan to explode early without wither a first turn necro/bargain?  Frantic search is far far inferior to windfall and Deep Analysis is little more than a joke.  you would rather pay 4 for 2 cards and then 2 and 3 life for 2 more cards?  even if windfall is only for 3 its still infinately better then deep analysis will ever be.  If your not playing the draw 7's besides twister and spiral your playing bad control with tendrils.  

In my testing with TPS i find that cunning wish is a waste of space and there is almost nothing that I would so desprately need from my board.  If you are grabbing fact or something you can just as easily mb it.  

Part of the reason that TPS performs so poorly in the states is because people throw together a European list from a European meta and go to play in our American worksop/trinisphere/wasteland/crucible dominated tournaments.  I realize that TPS is supposed to be combo-control but it needs to be alot more on the aggressive combo side of the coin.  This is why cards like Library and Misdirection and deep analysis dont work in the deck.  They are control elements that the deck dosent need.  The deck works on draw 7's most of the time.  This does not mean play like your playing draw7 or deathlong but you can't expect to win by playing more control than combo in a combo deck.

[Whatever Works]

Whatever Woks wrote:

Windfall... I hated this card in testing because i like to drop my hand out fast... and the decks that BEAT ME ---> Drop there entire hands out fast too... so this makes this cards advantage turn into a disadvange including the fact that you spent 3 mana, and are likely going to play a mox and then just pass the turn while they got a new (though most likely small hand)...

So you dont like wheel, which I think is insane in TPS and is well worth putting in 1 Volc, and you dont like windfall.  How do you plan to explode early without wither a first turn necro/bargain?  Frantic search is far far inferior to windfall and Deep Analysis is little more than a joke.  you would rather pay 4 for 2 cards and then 2 and 3 life for 2 more cards?  even if windfall is only for 3 its still infinately better then deep analysis will ever be.  If your not playing the draw 7's besides twister and spiral your playing bad control with tendrils.

Its actually very simple... First off most decks dont run Wheel so they have to be doing something right... and secondly windfall can be made up for with cards like Gifts Ungiven which says I WIN, and unlike windfall that can give your opponents an extra turn with a brand new hand to hurt you... you can do Gifts at the end of a turn... I also run fewer mana sources and mulligan agressively that easily makes up for the lesser threat density, and works well with the higher # of buisness cards.

I also never compared Windfall to Deep Analysis because the cards are completely different, and I am not exactly running deep analysis to help me go crazy combo out tricks, but rather help the late game... Deep Analysis I have found to be a rather strong card, and you can say mana drain all you want, but truth be told Mana Drain is seeing less play then ever in New England... The current metagame has more artifact decks then ever, and the Oath is seeing less play... Also factor In that the decks that abuse Mana Drain the most havent performed well as of late. From the people I have talked to many of the usual Hulk/4cc/Control Slaver players have been playing other decks such as the tinker deck etc. Thus I am less woried about control then ever. If the metagame did not have this shift in power I dont think anybody would even be posting about this deck... If Stax wasnt so highly played I would quickly dump this deck for belcher but then you realize Stax is played and that belcher cant handle trinisphere while this deck can.

[Cross]

What do you usually gifts ungiven for? That has been my only problem with the card. I just sit there trying to think of a good combination of cards and I can usually only think of like two that they definitely wouldn't chose.
As far as cranial extraction goes I agree that it shouldn't be mainboard, but it's definitely a bomb in the sideboard.
Also Hero 't Mannetje's list is missing a card. It's not gifts ungiven as theyve decided in the discussion in the tourney forum, my guess is it's cunning wish. It seems like the two lists with wheel of fortune have put up the numbers; however, the addition of red seems to make the list not TPS. The strength of the mana base allows protection from wasteland, and a little padding against sundering titan.

EDIT: I found some other lists on theabyss.biz
Luca Simone, 1st ALESSANDRIA 12/12, 48 players

4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Windfall
1 Time Spiral
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire
1 Rebuild
1 Cunning Wish
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta


SIDEBOARD

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Darksteel Colossus

Basically a red splash, but uses badlands instead of volcanic island which is a really bizarre choice; basically red gets him wheel of fortune and some REBs. He also puts gifts ungiven in his sideboard, maybe for a wish traget? seems clunky though. He uses chain of vapor for his maindeck bounce. Brainfreeze is in the sideboard obviously as cranial extraction protection, I think this is something everyone is soon going to have to switch over to.

Then there's Davide Savini, 1st at Torino on 11/14, 142 players (impressive)


4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Windfall
1 Time Spiral
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Frantic Search
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire
1 Rebuild
1 Cunning Wish
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta


SIDEBOARD

1 Meditate
3 Hydroblast
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Stifle
2 Misdirection
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Brainfreeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ebony Charm

This is obviously a very standard list, except that he also runs chain of vapor in the mainboard. This is most likey run as oath protection. He also runs brainfreeze in the sideboard, for the same reasons. Interesting sideboard choices are his Ebony Charm, which seems like a nice wish target and good against Dragon and Welder, and even Yawg's. Also he runs Meditate which is a very strange choice, but in a metagame where stax is very common maybe not as insane as it looks.

[Gabethebabe]

What has everyone been using to combat Oath games 2 & 3?  My SB looks like this:
2 Misdirection
1 Stiffle
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Coffin Purge
2 Hydroblast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Colossus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gilded Drake
1 Engineered Explosives

Gilded Drake is a BAD card vs Oath. BADBADBAD.
Explanation:
When you want to play Gilded Drake, means they have Oath out and they have untapped, put a Legend into play, bashed you for 6 and are waiting with their counters. That is not a situation where you want to be in.

SUPPOSE it works out, you resolve Gilded Drake. Lucky bastard. Now you will probably win the game if they have oathed up Akroma first, because Akroma owns SotN. If they have oathed up SotN and you take it, then Akroma will come down next turn and beat your face.

Better to avoid Oath triggers from resolving. The card I recommend and play is Claws of Gix.

[ill_Dawg]

I'd run engineered plague over claws of gix, but thqat's jus a pesonal preferance thing.  he plague costs more to put on the able, but it also owns goblins, especially the welder kind, elves (you never know), fishies, etc., and works when you have nothing open. Claws, on the other hand, is easier to get onto the table and can sac jewelry before a will to up storm count.

my board right now looks something like:

1 rebuild
1 hurkyl's
2 chain of vapor
1 gush
2 scrying
2 hydroblast
1 brain freeze
1 colossus
2 engineered plague
2 cranial extraction

Just for reference, I run 1/1 hurkl's/rebuild and no CoV in the main, cunning wish, no wheel.

Also, gifts ungiven is a house.  if you need will, you go in for demonic, vamp, mystical and lotus EOT.  If you hav will, you can make them give you duress and FoW and put gas into the yard.  if you need gas, you can grab any 4 bombs. At worst, you take a counter EoT before you win on your turn.

-=ADAM=-

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

Just quickly back to the deep analysis thing, you say its great late game, well your playing combo, late game is third turn.  

As for gifts, my testing shows that I would much rather rely on a series of draw 7's then rely on 1 bomb to grab stuff.  Look at deathlong.  It was piloted to second place at the last waterbury and it only runs 4 duress for disruption so refilling your opponents hand obviously wasnt a big deal there, and we have 4 duress AND 4 force for disruption.  

just for reference, here is my list:
2-island
2-swamp
3-underground sea
1-volcanic island
4-polluted delta
1-tolarian academy
5-moxen
1-chrome mox
1-lotus petal
1-mana vault
1-mana crypt
1-sol ring
1-black lotus
4-dark ritual
1-LED

1-demonic tutor
1-vampiric tutor
1-mystical tutor
1-tinker

1-wheel of fortune
1-windfall
1-timetwister
1-timespiral
1-mind's desire
1- memory jar
1-yawgmoth's will
1-necropotence
1-yawgmoth's bargain

4-duress
4-force of will

1-rebuild
1-hurkyls
1-chain of vapor

4-brainstorm
1-ancestral recall

2-tendrils of agony

Board
3-defense grid (could possibly be back to basics)
3-energy flux
3-echoung truth
2-engineered plague (a BOMB agains workshop and welder decks as well as crushes random goblin and aggro decks)
2-rebuild
1-tormod's crypt
1-DSC

As for some of my choices, I feel that wheel is broken and just as eaily cast as any other card on the dek and I have never beem stuck in a stiuation when i cant cast it.  As you probably noticed, I do not run cunning wish because cunning wish is not that good in this deck.  I realize that all the Europeans are running it, that dosent make it good.  Brainfreeze is a joke, and if you need to cunning wish or fact or gifts then you are probably losing.  I have also done some testing with cranial and even though it is a bomb against some decks, it needs to resolve first.  The only decks that you might want cranial against are oath, which has a full compliment of counters, control slaver to grab their welders, and they also have counters, and engineered plague is better against a workshop deck then cranial extraction will ever be.  the bounce spells are a meta call most of the time, but Chain of vapor is nasty against most decks and really needs to be in there.  As for rebuild vs hurkyl's, the number of each or which one to run over the other is a personal preference and meta call.

[Whatever Works]

has platinum angel been considered at all??? I recently added it to my board and it is absolutely amazing vs. Oath... they never see it coming and rarely have any real answer for it... The card can also just win games vs. so many decks that just dont prepare for it... or sideboard out cards that can deal with it (kind of like how people sideboard out STP vs. Belcher then cry when belcher go's first turn Xantid Sworm)...

[Negator13]

I've seen discussions about it. What I'm thinking is, maybe it could actually be a replacement for DSC. It's pretty much just as good vs. random aggro and fish, and much better vs. Oath and combo. It's easier to hardcast too. The only real drawback I can see is that it's not as useful vs. Tog, where DSC is usally a huge beating.

[Sean Ryan]

Thanks for the replys.

If you actually tested the Wheel you would know that it isn't "clunky" and replacing an Underground Sea with the Volcanic does nothing to reduce your basic count which is very important.  LOA is another matter, sometimes it is useless, sometimes it shines against control, and sometimes it grabs you that extra card you need to win after casting a draw 7.  If not LOA then I would add a 6th fetchland b/c. one of my biggest complaints about the deck is the high land count which can screw you after a draw 7 or Desire.

Cunning Wish or Chain of Vapor maindeck?  I think thats a metagame call myself but the Rebuild definitely gets the nudge over Hurkyl'd Recall.

@ Ill Dawg - good pointers on Gifts Ungiven I may even need to find a foily one now:)  

Frantic Search - the cards it could replace are: Cunning Wish, Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, 2nd Tendrils - The Wish or the 2nd Tendrils are the only cards I would even consider swopping and Gifts Ungiven seems like a more likley canidate than Frantic Search.  I can see how one can compare Winfall with Frantic Search but I disagree  that Frantic Search is more useful/powerful - except with an Academy of course lol.

Platz vs. Colossus: this is definatley worth testing especially if you see lots of Oath or other combo.  The problem I have with Platz is that she doesn't win the game like Colossus does.  Game 2 it could be a great suprise but then game 3 you probally should side it back as b/c. of ll the artifact remaoval out there.  Oh yeah - I beat a very good Tog player after mulling to 4 with tinker Colossus so I'm a little biased.

Side Board:

No more Drake! Engineered Explosives and Claws of Gix sound good enough for the Oath hate.  

Here is my board after taking into consideration everyones coments:

1 Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 chain of Vapor
1 Misdirection
2 Hydroblast
1 BrainFreeze
1 Crainial Extraction
1 Engineered Plauge
1 Colossus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Claws of Gix
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Mikey]

One question: Why no Time Walk in your build? Thought TW was a must in most combo decks  

[ill_Dawg]

Just one thing I'd like to add about chain of vapor MD, the reason I've always liked it is not just the fact that it makes you not roll over game 1 to any 1 MD hate card that happens to hit the other side of the table.  Also, it's not just the fact that it's your only way of dealing with some threat that's not a creature.  I love it because you can bounce two of your things to up storm, or one of yours and one of theirs if needed, and then sac academy and replay it after will.  It's one of those cards that keeps bouncing between the main and he side, but I really believe that it belongs in the main.

-=ADAM=-

BTW, on time walk; Time walk is cute, but I'd rather win this turn.  Frantic search is usually as good as or better than the walk.  It untaps your junk, draws you cards, and doesn't kill your storm count.  Time walk is really only good in control and aggro; control for the untap and yawg will turn and aggro for the extra attack phase.  I've cut the walk from almost every aggro and combo deck I've ever played, and I've only ever missed it as a card that's easy to pitch to FoW.

[Whatever Works]

Time Walk is a real crutch for me in the deck... I consider myself an above average combo player... but That doesnt mean by any means im perfect, and i find that personally time walk is often the safe sure fire card that lets me untap and guarantees that I can combo out the next turn... It also has been a good tempo card because it lets u untap and play an extra land that can very helpful at times.

Wheel is clunky from my testing and makes the deck play more like draw7, and last time i checked that deck was trashed.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

PLatnum angel is a card that I tested with for a long time over the summer and early ino the fall and it worked sometimes and made me cry others.  What it came down to was that it is the worst opening hand card you can get and id rather grab mem jar with tinker 95% of the time.  If you play in a meta with alot of oath then it is the answer for you, otherwise DSC is far superior as it is something that your opponent absolutely must get rid of if they even want a chance to win.

As for time walk, i agree with ill_dawg in that its nothing more than cute.  If your not gonna win this turn then the last thing you want to do is cast a time walk, wasting all your storm and possibly burning for a substantial ammount.  It's much better to main a chain of vapor b/c for one mana you can increase your storm count and sax those useless tapped lands.

On library, do not use it.  unless its right off a draw 7, your never gonna be able to use it because you will almost never have 7 cards in your hand.  Part of the greatness of TPS is the basic lands and library screams WASTE ME at the top of its lungs.

[Rasmus_Nielsen]

Hi. Just a few arguments and thoughts about the deck I played in Copenhagen. I'ved played the deck for quite a while know, but it still needs to be tweaked before every turnament.

The number of artifact bounce:

sryan0079: Rebuild definitely gets the nudge over Hurkyl'd Recall.

True - if you live in a world without any "modern" stax builds. When I decided to play 2 Hurkyls + 1 Rebuild maindeck, it was because I knew that at least 5 of the 21 decks would be Stax. Not 5/3, but Stax with 3-4 Challice of the Void maindeck along with 2-3 Sphere of Resistance. The last mentioned is the reason to play Hurkyl's over Rebuild. The Spheres and Chalices are probably a "Scandinavian problem", but over here they are huge.

LoA:
I'm getting pretty used to playing this card in the deck, because of its sometimes insane crazynes. Against control it shines - if they waste it early on they will not have double blue mana, and if they don't, you simply outdraw them. I cannot remember a single game where my mana didn't work out right, because of the colorless source it is. You play enough lands to just drop a fetch/Sea and fix it that way around.

Frantic Search:
This one helps out on the colorless mana problem too. Not only the mana from the LoA, but also from the offcolor moxen. Floating one blue and one black, and then playing Frantic Search with two mana from Emerald and Pearl is just so good, since it helps you getting double blue/tripple black that is sometimes needed. No need to mention anything about any broken academy here, just insane.

The 2'nd Tendrils:
Due to the heavy staxmeta in Denmark, many players chose to play TPS. If you're only playing a single Tendrils you ought to have a hard time in the mirror. If it gets duressed away, you have to resolve a draw-7 that reshuffles or play your Will. For the ones of you that are familiar with the mirror, you probably know that the draw-7's are critical in the mirror. If you don't actually kill your opponent the turn you use it, he will return the favour of giving him seven cards; by throwing a huge tendrils at you. Also when playing the mirror you often will find it nice to play a tendrils for ten or even less. It dosn't kill your opponent, but he now needs to get the storm-count even higher and you disable his necro and bargain - Two cards that often determine the mirror.

All that said, if I were to play TPS right now I would play the C.Wish too. Brainfreeze in the board along with Meditate. I've tested Gifts Ungiven maindeck and it's simply too slow. Sometimes it's even dead, 'cause you've already used some of the "big stuff" in your deck. It's not nice only having Will, Ancestal, Lotus and.... Brainstorm to "gift" for. I've tried it, and it happens too often IMO.

Rasmus

[Fominian]

For my build of TPS... (note its just UB - I do have others where I splashed color, but this one is the one that probably does the best, and is most stream line...)

LoA - This card is just one of those things that generally I would rather have.  I am rarely ever dipping below the 5 card count, so most often I am using it for the draw rather then the colorless mana.  I also appreciate the value of having an instant waste target (most often naught) and thus also adds a moderate level of protection to my other lands .  Out of all the decks I have ever run, TPS is probably one of the most consistent mana bases - I have never gone wanting with this deck (excluding the times where my opponent is going   with recurring strips or other such affect...).   So to clarify: If my opponent is leaving my lands alone, it is highly consistent.  If not, then it tries its best to save me .

Frantic Search - Cute card, that is absolutely great.  At first I hesitated to try this for the simple reason of 3cc for a 2/2.  But when I cast this, LoA and Academy are already sitting on the table ready to be abused - and frankly this abuses them like few can .  Add to that the coupled bonus of being able to generate a plausible amount of 6 UB combination off only 3 lands, that really has to account for something - no?

Arti Hate - All I have ever needed was a single HRecall, and the single Rebuild main decked.  If I ever needed more I would simply wish for it.  My meta currently only has a bout a 5% chance of running into a stax deck - nothing overly threatening.  However, many still do run the attempted first 3sphere so it is required.  CotV on the other hand has never really been a bother for me, whilst running this deck.

Tinker - I agree that in most builds it is often a dead card, as your only real options are to sacrifice a moxen for jar - generally not the best of options.  However, in my build to account in mirror matches, and a few other matchups, I have found being able to call up a DsC (or Platz after boarding - also random meta hating artifacts if I deem them necessary enough to run.  Example:  The first tournament after ChK was made legal I ran 2 Claws of Gix in board, since I knew at least 40% of the meta would be running Oath - I was right, where the number was closer to 60%) a piece of priceless utility.

Time Walk - Agreed its a cute card, that I would rather be using to 'set off'.  I however, can not tell you how many times I have play the skull, followed by this for the win.  Add that to the fact that I also run a MD DsC as a tinker target - being able to tinker, walk, swing, ywin, walk, swing, win is just an added bonus.  It also allows you the added flexibility of A) being able to bait - playing it safe with a Duress/Time Walk combination, and B) giving you an extra turn, when faced with rather dismal options...

Single Tendrils - This was a choice I made to accommodate other choices.  With the amount of shuffling and grave utility I run, only run one has never been a problem.  Add to that, the single Tendrils I have in the board, and a single DWish I have MD I feel I have all round protection for my win - that thus far really has not ever been an issue for me.

In closing - I feel that while my TPS is pretty standard (save the MD DWish and DsC), what has really optimized my build for 'my' meta is the tool box I have for a sideboard.

[virtual]

Two things of note that I thought were worth putting in this thread:

#1  Chain of Vapor:  Ill_Dawg mentioned that you can bounce 2 things.  I've used it on multiple occasions to bump my storm by 3-5 by (after things are safe), play/bounce all the moxes (nuking all of your lands, so it can be dangerous).  Also, it can help you get double-black off your jet which can be crucial for the tendrils.  

#2  On the second Tendrils:  I think that it's a viable choice to run only 1, but my main problem with this is that it can make memory jar not quite as much of a bomb.  If your tendrils is sitting back in your other hand, there's not much you can do with that jar besides develop.  If it's one of your only cards, your development won't help because your storm count needs to be up high, so you can either wait to brainstorm it back before you pop the jar, or just deal with the fact that it sucks in that situation (narrow though it may sound, I've encountered it a few times)

[Freelancer]

About the time walk in combo:
I've heard many reasons to play walk in TPS (necro,colossus,land drop,extra mana etc.) but you all forgot the main reason to play it...
The main reason to play walk in almost any combo deck is that it's just like playing with a 59 card deck instead off a 60 card deck, although sometimes it will make mulling harder (ie. you don't know the card your going to get from walk) but playing with a 59 card deck instead off 60 is just good times in combo...


Ps. yes my english ain't that great...i'm from Holland so bear with me...

[Shaman]

The main reason to play walk in almost any combo deck is that it's just like playing with a 59 card deck instead off a 60 card deck, although sometimes it will make mulling harder (ie. you don't know the card your going to get from walk) but playing with a 59 card deck instead off 60 is just good times in combo...

I do completely agree. That's really why Rebuild > Hurkyl's, no matter how many chalices/spheres you are going. I understand the sphere of resistance issues, but Rebuild cycles itself when you do not need it providing you an extra card: in these cases it means you play a 59 cards deck (58 if you have walk).

About the second tendrils, I assume 2 is the best number for the following reasons:
- easier mirror match (see above what Rasmus Nielsen wrote)
- better chance to get your jar working good (I agrre with virtual)
- BETTER DRAWING ENGINE: your deck wins most of the matches with Yawgmoth's Will, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain: considering only the last two, tendrils of agony gives you the chance to resolve your game in two turns instead of one (two minor tendrils instead of a big one), and that is pretty common if you have not a lot of mana open and you don't want to take big risks in winning a game you HAVE to win.
- better chance to play Necropotence without big risks: you can set aside any number of cards without warring about "drawing" your single tendrils and then seeing it discarded out of the game by a resolved duress...

P.S: pardon my bad English too...

[MaxxMatt]

@About Time Walk.

I would like to underline a bit the Strategical weight that a cards such as Time Walk usually have in a deck as TPS.

It is not only and added cheap and powerful spell or a cantrip or a blue card to feed FoW.

I fproperly used, it can let you win against control decks.




Try to resolve Walk at some point.
Your opponent would usually let you do it.
Then you can play a bomb.
THEN untap and you can safely play one or two other bombs.

THAT IS the raw power of your Time Walk. It let you go around counters more easily and let you optimize all your crucial plays.

... And with a deck such as TPS, full of broken and asimmetrical spells, you need to resolve only a single threat to be able to win almost any match.

---------


@Bombs over Draw7s

The new versions of TPS that you all are referring about ( with Deeps and Gifts and the lack of almost any Draw7 ) gave us extremely good results at now.

The skills needed to master that version are also far more important than before, because there are a lot more interactions between Tutors and Players' choices rather than trying to chain Draw7 after Draw7 in a nearly mindless way.

Usually Gifts have written on it: "You can win now, if you are choosing well the cards to pile". Put a Lotus, Demonic and two bombs in the pile and you  could almost be sure of winning the match with them and the other cards in your hand.

IMHO, there are a lot of tremendous sinergies among a lot of cards.

I'm loving the interaction between Frantic Search and Deep Analysis, the Istant raw power of Fact or Fiction and Gift Unseeen and the addition of a second Cunning Wish in order to Tutor with ease the needed Winner or Drawer whenever I need.

Draw7 are usually more explosives but really more unstable then the other bombs used now. With a precise plan in mind, the deck usually can give you more satisfactions if compered to the old versions ( without using Windfall, Jar, Spiral ) simply because it doesn't give to a lucky opponent any chance to recover and win.

At now, Timetwister is the only one that is commonly used in our build, because it can recicle bombs in the grave after a couple of Gifts or after a long and unlucky game.



Maxx

[Lost In Admiration]

In the debated Wheel of Fortune slot we've been playing Meditate.  It's awful and a half if you crap out but I think we can all agree that crapping out owns this deck anyhow.