[Deck] Kobolds

[Imsomniac101]

Your forgetting that crop rotation is a restricted card and that Limbo's list does not run Phyrexian Tower.

[twault]

What do you guys think about Earthcraft in the builds?

I just picked up 4 of em, and I thought about this deck. Not real familiar with how they work...Am I assuming correctly that you can tap Kobolds with Earthcraft even if they just came into play? Or would the creatures still have summoning sickness?

[Limbo]

What do you guys think about Earthcraft in the builds?

I just picked up 4 of em, and I thought about this deck. Not real familiar with how they work...Am I assuming correctly that you can tap Kobolds with Earthcraft even if they just came into play? Or would the creatures still have summoning sickness?

You can use kobolds with summoning sickness to untap basic land. And there lies the problem, it needs to be basic land

Today I played Kobolds in the Eindhoven tourny. Knowing the metagame would be packed with FoW's I put 3 xantid swarms main and 3 kobolds in the board for non-control opponents. Although I don't want to write a full report, I did type out a short match-by-match report.

Round 1: Menno playing UB Scepter Tog
Having played vs Menno twice before in tourny's and losing both matches 2-1 doesn't bode well. Him winning the last 2 tourny's makes it even better. I do know he packs either FoW or 3sphere, as he is known to run a full complement of one or the other. At least a worthy adversary.

Game 1: I start off with a swarm to fish for FoW. It doesn't come, so I ancestral into some mana acceleration, play it, and pass the turn with a hurkyll's recall and frantic search in my hand. During his turn he plays 2 scepters, using a lotus. He imprints a counterspell and an AK. During my turn I swarm him, cast frantic search, draw twister, play hurkylls on him wrecking his board, twisting into a new hand containing ritual, necro and time walk. He dies a horrible death turn 2.

Game 2: He FoW's a turn 1 clamp, I drop a seal of cleansing, and watch him gather a handful of counters with me drawing no threats. When he drops his tog I know his win condition, concede, and we go off to game 3.

Game 3: I draw some early disruption in the form of some duresses, we both seem not to find any drawspells however. I gather some resources, and start casting threats while he is low on mana from a cast scepter on his previous turn. He drains the first two. His hand is empty except for 1 or 2 cards, so I cast yawgmoths will. He casts AK for 4, tops a FoW and stops it. Three turns later I try again wih necro followed by twister, but again he topped a drain. He resolves tog and beats me. We both know it was close, but he had luck on his side...

Games 1-2, Match 0-1

Round 2 : Mathi with TPS
Game 1: He starts with an underground sea. This time I start with a turn 1 swarm again, followed by ritual -> necro. I draw 12, set up for a turn 2 kill, and pass. He plays crypt, ritual and a topdecked lotus to cast a bargain, and rides it to victory. Had I won the coin flip, I would have won the game

Game 2: We both keep the duress disruption hand. We both draw go for several turns, but a clamp turns some kobolds into a nice draw engine, and I ride it to victory.

Game 3: He starts off with a sea, I start (with a mulligan) for a turn 1 necropotence, depleting my hand. He has the force, and I die his turn 2, to once again a topped bargain that he cast of of double ritual and a crypt.

Games 2-4, Match 0-2

Round 3: ??? with goblins
After a mulligan I get the 4 artifacts, land wheel hand. His discard reveiled goblins, so I turn a couple of rituals into bargain. I kill him T1.

After boarding my SB tech reveils itself, showing him a T2 DC out of a tinker. He has no solution and dies turn 4.

Games 4-4, Match 1-2

Round 4: Joren with Ankh Sligh
Game 1: I have a hand with fast mana (including ritual) totalling 5 mana and a bargain. Knowing he plays goblins and he is playing first, I keep. I lure a wasteland from him onto my land, turning it into another gemstone mine with my crop rotation, stunting his development. My 3rd turn I get the mana source I need, cast bargain and win.

Game 2: A T2 necro turns into a turn 3 win

Games 6-4, Match 2-2

Round 4: ??? with Control Slaver
Game 1: Mana acceleration + vampiric + duress turns into a turn 2 bargain with no worries. I ride it to victory.

Game 2: I bait a FoW with clamp, going for the twister after that. The new clamp resolves, and he dies with never being near to winning a game.

Games 8-4, Match 3-2

After 5 rounds (only 23 players this time) I miss top 8 by tiebrakers. I turn out to be 9th... Seeing I played against good opponents I am happy with my deck, but less so with my luck. If in the first two rounds lady luck had favoured me instead of the opponent, I could have won a match more. If anyone is interested in my decklist, PM me. I made some minor alterations, that turned out quite well.

[Bibi]

What do you guys think about Earthcraft in the builds?

I just picked up 4 of em, and I thought about this deck. Not real familiar with how they work...Am I assuming correctly that you can tap Kobolds with Earthcraft even if they just came into play? Or would the creatures still have summoning sickness?

You can use kobolds with summoning sickness to untap basic land. And there lies the problem, it needs to be basic land

Today I played Kobolds in the Eindhoven tourny. Knowing the metagame would be packed with FoW's I put 3 xantid swarms main and 3 kobolds in the board for non-control opponents. Although I don't want to write a full report, I did type out a short match-by-match report.

Round 1: Menno playing UB Scepter Tog
Having played vs Menno twice before in tourny's and losing both matches 2-1 doesn't bode well. Him winning the last 2 tourny's makes it even better. I do know he packs either FoW or 3sphere, as he is known to run a full complement of one or the other. At least a worthy adversary.

Game 1: I start off with a swarm to fish for FoW. It doesn't come, so I ancestral into some mana acceleration, play it, and pass the turn with a hurkyll's recall and frantic search in my hand. During his turn he plays 2 scepters, using a lotus. He imprints a counterspell and an AK. During my turn I swarm him, cast frantic search, draw twister, play hurkylls on him wrecking his board, twisting into a new hand containing ritual, necro and time walk. He dies a horrible death turn 2.

Game 2: He FoW's a turn 1 clamp, I drop a seal of cleansing, and watch him gather a handful of counters with me drawing no threats. When he drops his tog I know his win condition, concede, and we go off to game 3.

Game 3: I draw some early disruption in the form of some duresses, we both seem not to find any drawspells however. I gather some resources, and start casting threats while he is low on mana from a cast scepter on his previous turn. He drains the first two. His hand is empty except for 1 or 2 cards, so I cast yawgmoths will. He casts AK for 4, tops a FoW and stops it. Three turns later I try again wih necro followed by twister, but again he topped a drain. He resolves tog and beats me. We both know it was close, but he had luck on his side...

Games 1-2, Match 0-1

Round 2 : Mathi with TPS
Game 1: He starts with an underground sea. This time I start with a turn 1 swarm again, followed by ritual -> necro. I draw 12, set up for a turn 2 kill, and pass. He plays crypt, ritual and a topdecked lotus to cast a bargain, and rides it to victory. Had I won the coin flip, I would have won the game

Game 2: We both keep the duress disruption hand. We both draw go for several turns, but a clamp turns some kobolds into a nice draw engine, and I ride it to victory.

Game 3: He starts off with a sea, I start (with a mulligan) for a turn 1 necropotence, depleting my hand. He has the force, and I die his turn 2, to once again a topped bargain that he cast of of double ritual and a crypt.

Games 2-4, Match 0-2

Round 3: ??? with goblins
After a mulligan I get the 4 artifacts, land wheel hand. His discard reveiled goblins, so I turn a couple of rituals into bargain. I kill him T1.

After boarding my SB tech reveils itself, showing him a T2 DC out of a tinker. He has no solution and dies turn 4.

Games 4-4, Match 1-2

Round 4: Joren with Ankh Sligh
Game 1: I have a hand with fast mana (including ritual) totalling 5 mana and a bargain. Knowing he plays goblins and he is playing first, I keep. I lure a wasteland from him onto my land, turning it into another gemstone mine with my crop rotation, stunting his development. My 3rd turn I get the mana source I need, cast bargain and win.

Game 2: A T2 necro turns into a turn 3 win

Games 6-4, Match 2-2

Round 4: ??? with Control Slaver
Game 1: Mana acceleration + vampiric + duress turns into a turn 2 bargain with no worries. I ride it to victory.

Game 2: I bait a FoW with clamp, going for the twister after that. The new clamp resolves, and he dies with never being near to winning a game.

Games 8-4, Match 3-2

After 5 rounds (only 23 players this time) I miss top 8 by tiebrakers. I turn out to be 9th... Seeing I played against good opponents I am happy with my deck, but less so with my luck. If in the first two rounds lady luck had favoured me instead of the opponent, I could have won a match more. If anyone is interested in my decklist, PM me. I made some minor alterations, that turned out quite well.

Can you post the deck you was playing ?

[Limbo]

LimboClamp v1.4

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Tendrills of Agony
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoths Bargain

4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Crookshank Kobolds
1 Crimson Kobolds
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Burning Wish

1 Frantic Search
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl's Recall

2 Auriok Steelshaper

3 Xantid Swarm
1 crop rotation

4 Skullclamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Chromatic Sphere

2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:
3 Crimson Kobolds
4 Seal of Cleansing
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tendrills of Agony

Feelings about "new" card choices:

MD swarms : Awesome if expecting loads of control. Kobolds in the side for non-control matches, where they add some more speed.

MD Duress : Golden all day. Although therapys are awesome too, I did love just picking one good card instead of guessing what hate they sided in.

MD Burning Wish : In there to not die because of Cranial Extraction. Didn't see it all day, didn't need it either. Did see some people side out CE after matches though. I just outraced their hate

SB Tinker + Mystical + DC : Boarded twice. Golden vs fish, sligh and such. Didn't see stax, but they hate it too

SB Therapy : They need to go, free up some slots for wish targets maybe.

SB Seals : Awesome all day.

SB Hurkylls : Didnt use, but didn't see stax either.

[Imsomniac101]

You seem to have cut one Auriok Steelshapers from your old list and in your tournament report you never mentioned them at all. Do you think that the deck still needs them?

[Limbo]

You seem to have cut one Auriok Steelshapers from your old list and in your tournament report you never mentioned them at all. Do you think that the deck still needs them?

I cut one steelshaper for a vampiric tutor, which I felt was better (and I did like it all day). However, the steelshapers where good all day, and I even applied some beats with it in a few games, after a small tendrills for 10 or 12. The T2 kill in R2, G1 would have involved steelshaper tricks as well, but as mentioned, I didnt get the chance there...

[epeeguy]

Yeah, I think 2 is more than enough Steelshapers in the deck; you should be able to get 1 either on the initial draw, or very quickly with your Draw 7s or Clamps (in my case, I usually get one when I Glimpse and play about 3 Kobolds).  The second one is then very redundent, as it adds nothing when one is already in play.  But, since you do want to draw one, having 2 in the deck ensures that you should get one early enough; a third would simply be overkill (and a guarentee of having 2 dead cards once you get the first Steelshaper into play).

[Tristal]

Another case for Glimpses; they're not as redundant as Steelshapers can be.

I cut Vampiric Tutor a long time ago for being too slow and inefficient in the face of hate.

I was glancing over my decklist the other day and noticed a glaring omission: Channel.  Why aren't we running this - is it the colored mana requirement?  Is it the lack of usefulness?  In my deck it's a lot more poweful than yours - I don't have Steelshapers to eliminate my need for colorless mana, and I run Memory Jar and post-SB DSC.  Also seems mildly useful to cast the 6cc bombs in mine.  Comments?

When I finish the most recent change testing in my deck, I'll post it.

[Imsomniac101]

Do you find that you often get hands where you can't cast the steelshapers. If you don't, do you find that when you start clamping that you get too many lands?

[epeeguy]

I cut Vampiric Tutor a long time ago for being too slow and inefficient in the face of hate.

I still like it; using it in response to the Skullclamp triggering from Clamping a Kobold means you'll get the card you need when you draw from that ability.  So, it still serves some purpose.  Plus, it leaves you a Kobold to Clamp, as opposed to use for a Diabolic Intent.

I was glancing over my decklist the other day and noticed a glaring omission: Channel.  Why aren't we running this - is it the colored mana requirement?  Is it the lack of usefulness?  In my deck it's a lot more poweful than yours - I don't have Steelshapers to eliminate my need for colorless mana, and I run Memory Jar and post-SB DSC.  Also seems mildly useful to cast the 6cc bombs in mine.  Comments?

I think Channel might have a place in the deck, if anything to preserve your colored mana for use on Yawgmoth's Bargain/Will/Necropotence/etc.  That way it gives you mana that you can use for playing and using Skullclamp.  As well as other artifacts.  If you are using DSC or Memory Jar (which is another thought to run as well), then I would agree it's a very valid inclusion.  But, for the other builds... I don't know.

[Beta-Male]

While I can see some use for Steelshaper over Glimpse in the deck, once you start going off, having already cast a glimpse will often just win the game.  especially if you're running 12+ 0cc creatures.

Also, in testing its come to my attention that No Rest for the Wicked is really, really good in this deck.

[Nehptis]

I was glancing over my decklist the other day and noticed a glaring omission: Channel.  Why aren't we running this - is it the colored mana requirement?  Is it the lack of usefulness?

Finally!  You've come 1 piece closer to discovering what we believe to be the optimal build.  Channel is this combo deck's equivalent to Bargain in a TPS or traditional TOA combo build.  Paying life for mana fuels this deck just as paying life for cards does for the other TOA decks.

[Tristal]

I don't think Jar is a 'thought', I don't believe I've ever lost a game in which I activated one.

My issue with Channel is that it's pretty hard to cast without Gaea's Cradle.  Maybe Elvish Spirit Guides should make a small return to help out?

[epeeguy]

I don't think Jar is a 'thought', I don't believe I've ever lost a game in which I activated one.

And I haven't had a problem not running it... I was speaking more "What would I do" here, thinking out loud as it were.  Like I said earlier in the thread; even if the card works for you, it's still a question of "Will the card work for me".  I'm not a big fan of cookie cutter deck building, and always tweak and adjust.  So, while Memory Jar might work for you, I'm not quite as convinced that it will work for me.  YMMV.

My issue with Channel is that it's pretty hard to cast without Gaea's Cradle.  Maybe Elvish Spirit Guides should make a small return to help out?

Yeah, I don't think it would be in a problem in my deck (since I run a full compliment of ESGs).  It's just a question of how I would tweak things in what I'm currently testing.  Seeing as I didn't get any time this past weekend to do any testing (judging at the Prerelease)... Hopefully I'll get a chance to play around with it in the next few days.

[Imsomniac101]

Just a thought but what if we follow the Meandeck Tendrils template and put in stuff like spoils of the vault. With all the deck thinning effects it might be useful.

[Limbo]

Channel: Channel serves the same purpose as steelshaper : providing clamp mana. I'd rather spend 1W to clamp for free, then GG to pay life to clamp. Also, with channel, a bargain will cost you GGBB AND 4 life. If you plan on drawing massive cards, the life payment AND coloured manacost is pretty severe. I think channel has no place in the build, as it is just weak at what it does for you.

Spoils of the vault: Although a nice tutoring effect, it does remove cards from your deck. Meandeck plays 4 tendrills, so they can afford to loose a couple. In kobolds 2 is the number decided on (either 2 tendrils or 1 tendrils, 1 wish). The risk of either dying to the spoils or removing your winconditions is too great IMHO.

Tinker/Jar: Although a nice engine, I don't miss it at all. I always hate hardcasting a jar, but tinkering it in play is some good. However, the deck contains enough (cheap) draw as is, and I don't feel the need to include the two cards.

Somebody have any suggestions to improve the deck I played two days ago without adding glimpses?

[Imsomniac101]

Ok here's the thing. People still haven't answered the problem about casting the auriok steelshapers and also not drawing too many lands (its got 9 lands!!). So I was wondering whether Limbo could give me some answers (seeing as he created the deck).

[Tristal]

Ok here's the thing. People still haven't answered the problem about casting the auriok steelshapers and also not drawing too many lands (its got 9 lands!!). So I was wondering whether Limbo could give me some answers (seeing as he created the deck).

Chromatic Spheres, Frantic Search.  Are we done here?

[yankeedave]

Ouch!  

[Limbo]

Ok here's the thing. People still haven't answered the problem about casting the auriok steelshapers and also not drawing too many lands (its got 9 lands!!). So I was wondering whether Limbo could give me some answers (seeing as he created the deck).

Chromatic Spheres, Frantic Search.  Are we done here?

Don't forget crop rotation. I am actually considering dropping one cradle, but I don't know if I favour either a permanent mana source ala city of brass, or if I want to add a 2nd chromatic sphere.

I also may try to free up some room in the SB for a complement of FoW's. The therapys will surely be scrapped, but I don't know if I want to fill the slots with FoW's. They can be sided in if needed in combination with hurkyls VS stax - 5/3, to provide the blue cards to pitch, as well as being able to wreck their board. But on that topic I'll ponder for a while before deciding on a card to add.

[Tristal]

You plan on ditching Therapies?  That seems bad.

Cradle -> Rotation for Cradle is still a very strong play in this deck, I don't know if cutting one is a hot idea.  I do suggest finding room for more Spheres, though.

[epeeguy]

Ok here's the thing. People still haven't answered the problem about casting the auriok steelshapers and also not drawing too many lands (its got 9 lands!!). So I was wondering whether Limbo could give me some answers (seeing as he created the deck).

With 9 lands, it sometimes happens that you might (and I emphasis that "might") stall on land.  However, it usually isn't a problem as there is enough card drawing going on that you can overcome it.  My problem is that with 5 lands (in the build I run), occassionally you don't get one of your Gemstone Mines (which you need for White) or you start with a Gaea's Cradle (which is horrid).  So, I think the safe land count is somewhere around 6 or 7 (depending on what else you are running; as I've found ESGs can work fine here).

What excites me about Betrayers of Kamigawa is a really good land that they've published.  It's not quite as good as Gemstone Mine or the original Dual Lands, but it is a lot safer to use than City of Brass.  It's not quite as good as Forbidden Orchard (which might actually be a thought for this deck, to fight against Oath), but it's not bad.  The card is (and I'm slightly paraphrasing it, so don't treat this as Oracle):

Tendo Ice Bridge
Land

Tendo Ice Bridge comes into play with a charge counter on it.
, Remove a charge counter from ~this:  Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
:  Add to your mana pool.

Honestly, this might be a thought for land 6 or 7 (or use Forbidden Orchard to foil Oath decks by giving them creatures to start with).

@Limbo: I'm in agreement with Tristal, and I'm not inclined to think that running Force of Wills is the way for you to go.  A lot of your blue cards you need to draw up a new hand, and if you pitch one of those, then it really cuts down your chances on going off.  I think you have a solid deck to fight out from a Trinisphere, it's the Chalice for 0 that hurts you.  Is there another way you can get around that?

As for Gaea's Cradle... I'm fine with just one in the deck.  Honestly, I can get mine out pretty quickly, and there's been a number of times where I don't even need it to actually go off.  So, while it does help out the deck sometimes (to provide more mana), running two isn't such a hot idea I think.  Especially if you draw one in your opening hand (and two increases the odds of that happening).

[yankeedave]

@epeeguy

I am currently running just one Tendrils in the deck, and one Gaea's Cradle, with Burning and Living Wishes main deck and spares in the SB, just to stop the Jester's Cap / Cranial Extraction fun that can be had.    Plus, LW helps to get a quick Xantid Swarm against Mono-U or Con-Slaver.

@Imsomniac101

I have to agree with epeeguy on this one, 6-7 lands is more than enough land is this deck, as long as you are running ESG as well. But, then, I am running the B/G build, so different rules apply.

[epeeguy]

While I'm not done testing my current build (posted a few days ago), this is also a build I'm considering.

Main Deck
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
2 Auriok Steelshaper

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
2 Tendrils of Agony

1 Crop Rotation
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Duress
1 Living Wish
1 Necropotence
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
2 Chromatic Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Tendo Ice Bridge

Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Deconstruct
3 Elvish Scrapper
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm

The major changes of this build, in comparison to my prior build, is changing the Gemstone Mines to Forbidden Orchards (to foil Oath) and cutting the 3 Ornithopters.  In place of the 3 Ornithopters is a Tendo Ice Bridge (land number 6), a Living Wish and a second Chromatic Sphere.  Note: the Death Wish was already pulled for a Burning Wish per Tristal's suggestion.  And the Elvish Scrappers were originally Scavenger Folk, but for some odd reason my Scavengers have gone missing...  Tendo Ice Bridge is in some respects interchangeable with Gemstone Mine; but if you want access to colored mana multiple times, then the Mine is much better than the Bridge.

[the boogie man]

Have you ever thought about tinder wall as a replacement for something? IT can be clamped multiple times, and then it can be sacrificed , draw, and add mana at the same time. I dunno, if you need mana.

[yankeedave]

I am currently this in my build and it is UBER effective. I would be without at least two.

[epeeguy]

Have you ever thought about tinder wall as a replacement for something? IT can be clamped multiple times, and then it can be sacrificed , draw, and add mana at the same time. I dunno, if you need mana.

One build I was testing used them.  I noticed two problems with them:

1.)  They required more mana to intially play (thus competing with my Glimpses for ), and
2.)  I wasn't quite getting the results I'd hoped for by Clamping it then sacrificing it for {R}.  Especially when I didn't need more (or even for Clamping).

That being said, I think they can have a place in the deck depending on the build.  With what I'm running... I don't really think so.  What's in there is a tight fit right now, and I really can't see what would be best to cut to replace them.

However, I plan on doing more testing with both my current build, as well as the build I just posted, and I may go from there.  If I like the consistency of either of those builds, I probably will not add the Tinder Walls.

[yankeedave]

I run them to help power the Wheel of Fortune and the Burning Wish. I find that if I am playing the DCI non proxy version of my deck , these help me move things along.

[DiscipleOfTerra]

Hey, I'm new to Type 1, thought I would pick up this deck because I'm on a budget. (We play 10 proxies)

Have you arrived at an optimal build yet? Should you splash Red or Blue? Right now my list looks like this:

4 Bayou
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Tolarian Academy
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 ESG
1 Lotus Petal

12 Kobolds
4 Ornithopter

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Crop Rotation
1 Yawg. Will
3 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Dark Ritual
2 Reaping the Graves
3 Duress
2 Tendrils of Agony

I could use some help though, I'm new to T1. I tested this against Oath and a single Force of Will was enough to beat this deck...