[Deck] Kobolds

[Tristal]

I'm sold on Seal.  My only question is, do you have problems casting it games two and three?

[epeeguy]

Maybe everyone is too focused on having a BG build. I am trying a more "traditional" combo build, and piloted it to a T8 finish in a 61 player tourny look here).

I guess my thought was that keeping it strictly Black-Green (with a splash of Red, since we have the Tinder Walls) kept it more streamlined.  I'm still leaning that way, but it is hard to refute the results of your build.  Would you have a problem if it was cut-n-paste into this thread, for reference purposes?

The Seal of Cleansing seems like a really nice idea as well, since it can be banked for future use.  I do like the idea of Deconstruct though, since you do get the {G}{G} back, which can be used for other spells that you play during that turn; but it is a much narrower use than Seal.  What about running both in the Sideboard, to give you more options?

[Limbo]

Maybe everyone is too focused on having a BG build. I am trying a more "traditional" combo build, and piloted it to a T8 finish in a 61 player tourny look here).

I guess my thought was that keeping it strictly Black-Green (with a splash of Red, since we have the Tinder Walls) kept it more streamlined.  I'm still leaning that way, but it is hard to refute the results of your build.  Would you have a problem if it was cut-n-paste into this thread, for reference purposes?

The Seal of Cleansing seems like a really nice idea as well, since it can be banked for future use.  I do like the idea of Deconstruct though, since you do get the {G}{G} back, which can be used for other spells that you play during that turn; but it is a much narrower use than Seal.  What about running both in the sideboard, to give you more options?

Paste ahead

I feel the advantage of a more colorful build is the ability to diversify threats (and SB solutions), while in addition drawing more cards if you force one through. Glimpse may draw mad cards, but it may not, as it is dead if you have no critters in hand. Twister and friends always draw7 if resolved.

Also, baiting for FoW with a clamp with no creatures in hand is tech, if that opens the road for a draw 7. The other way around works too, if you have a kobold/steelshaper hand with one draw 7 and a clamp. Draw out a force with your draw 7, win the game with clamp...

I am still not entirely sure about what to play in the board. A full complement of seals (for just about all anoying hate) and a full complement of swarms is probably mandatory, as swarming the opponents AND drawing cards for a mere G + 1 = awesome. Deconstruct may work, and it may not. Maybe I will try a few in an upcoming tourny, but I think I'd rather hurkylls recall / rebuild my opponent eot instead of destroying one artifact...

[epeeguy]

I feel the advantage of a more colorful build is the ability to diversify threats (and SB solutions), while in addition drawing more cards if you force one through. Glimpse may draw mad cards, but it may not, as it is dead if you have no critters in hand. Twister and friends always draw7 if resolved.

Good point.  I suppose that's a question of whether you want to streamline things as much as possible to "super charge" the engine, or to make it as robust as possible, to survive in a variety of situations.  I've always preferred to streamline combo decks as much as possible.  

I am still not entirely sure about what to play in the board. A full complement of seals (for just about all anoying hate) and a full complement of swarms is probably mandatory, as swarming the opponents AND drawing cards for a mere G + 1 = awesome. Deconstruct may work, and it may not. Maybe I will try a few in an upcoming tourny, but I think I'd rather hurkylls recall / rebuild my opponent eot instead of destroying one artifact...

Yeah, I was still thinking keeping the build towards Black-Green-Red, as opposed to running all 5 colors.  Especially since Deconstruct then let's you go Glimpse, Swarm, Scavenger Folk (and get 2 cards in the process) and drop some Kobolds (to get more cards), or just pass the turn with the ability to set up your kill the following turn.  Against most decks, that should be strong enough to work (unless they go for the Triskelion).  It's been passable when I've used it... but it may be that Rebuild/Herkyl's Recall is the better choice.

Anyhow, thanks for letting me repost your build:

Leon Kusters, KoboldClamp (60 Cards)

Main Deck
3 Auriok Steelshaper
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep

4 Skullclamp
2 Tendrils of Agony

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Crop Rotation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Frantic Search
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
 
1 Black Lotus
1 Chromatic Sphere
2 City of Brass
4 Dark Ritual
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy


Sideboard
4 Duress
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Xantid Swarm

While I like the interaction of Skullclamp and Auriok Steelshaper (certainly worth some thought), I'm not sure I like the lack of Glimpse of Nature.  I think that's probably the biggest sticking point I have with your deck.  Of course, giving you are drawing 2 cards for each Kobold still, then it still gives you a lot of return (especially when Clamping is free).

[wraith985]

I like the Steelshaper/Skullclamp interaction as well; drawing 2 free cards is nice . However, (unless I'm missing something) lack of Glimpse means that the only way to reliably draw cards in the early game (barring draw7s and necro/Bargain, of course) is with a Skullclamp. Now, I don't claim to have done a whole lot of testing, but theoretically I'd imagine that a no-Skullclamp hand means insta-mulligan with this build. Steelshaper helps the 4 Skullclamps only, whereas Glimpse can function off any number of the 12 Kobolds and whatever other cheap creatures are being run. Earlier it was stated that a non-Glimpse and non-Clamp opening 7 is probably going to be shipped back (as an argument to run four of each); with just Clamps in the deck, I'd imagine that the no-engine draw would come up a lot more often.

That being said, I'm being purely theoretical here; I'm gonna go test a little bit more with MWS before I make any set-in-stone conclusions.

[Tristal]

A lot of times you just get the "Mana and Draw 7s/Tutors" hand that doesn't need Kobolds or Clamps to win.

[Discozombie]

here is a version with a back up plan

Groboclamp

Beef (4)
4 Forgotten Ancient

Snackysmores (16)
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Tinderwall

Cheese (13)
4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fast Bond

Bread (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

[Tristal]

Wouldn't Quirion Dryad just be better than Forgotten Ancient?  (Kobolds are red, remember? :) )

[ElyasMachera]

I think I would go with the 5 color mana base.  This way you get acess to the draw 7's which are obv. good in this deck and you also get annul in the board to deal with workshops game 2/3.  If a 3phere hits i dont see getting to 3 mana before the game is already over, unless you get lucky and lay like 3 moxes 1st turn.  Annul solves that problem, just delays going off a turn.

[Limbo]

A lot of times you just get the "Mana and Draw 7s/Tutors" hand that doesn't need Kobolds or Clamps to win.

I second that. If I can choose between a hand that is all mana + draw7 or all mana + glimpse, I think it isn't a hard choice to choose which way to go.

Steelshaper can be a backup plan as well btw, as it can hit for 3 if single equipped.

Btw, if I should play in a tourney now, I think my MD might undergo the following changes:
-1 steelshaper
-1 city of brass
+2 chromatic sphere

Not completely sure though.

[andrewpate]

I agree that the Draw7s are good (although I think Annul is a terrible choice for sb against Workshop).  The 5-color base is certainly something I'm going to try.

At first glance, I don't like that this version relies on having so many different permanents in play to win.  In certain games, a well-placed Swords to Plowshares or Oxidize could send you into topdeck mode--a vulnerability that makes me start to say, "If I'm running this much power and card drawing while trying to kill with Tendrils of Agony, why am I not running TPS, which couldn't care less about what it has in play unless it's Yawgmoth's Bargain (in which case it still doesn't care, because it has won)?"

On the other hand, I acknowledge that an opponent with an opening grip like "Force of Will, Tropical Island, Island, Mana Drain, Brainstorm, Mox Emerald, Intuition" or anything resembling it is an absolute nightmare for the deck as I run it--I can almost always muster 2 Glimpse of Natures in the first 3 turns, but if they both get countered it is an uphill battle.  I am not as scared of a hand with a Mishra's Workshop and a Trinisphere nearly so much as a hand with double-Force.  The greater density of "must-counters" in the Limbo build seems better to me, and I've been wishing I didn't have to rely on Glimpse so much.

After additional testing, I've revised my B/G build slightly to include a 4th Skullclamp and to reincorporate Yawgmoth's Will.  I'm still debating between Cabal Therapy and Duress in the maindeck, although I'm pretty sure that I'll settle on Therapy at this point.  Of course, all that may be moot because I might be switching to 5-color Kobolds anyway.

One thing I'll go ahead and say I'm going to try is Genesis Chamber.  The Japanese Auriok Steelshaper deck from Standard just before the banning functioned very similarly to this deck (just much slower), and it had Genesis Chambers in it.  A Steelshaper, a Chamber, a Skullclamp, and a couple of Kobolds would draw your deck with no difficulty and no mana.  Have any of you tried this out?  I know I recall some Vintage Ravager lists tossing in Clamps and Chambers for the ability to "combo out," although Null Rod killed those.  Come to think of it... this deck isn't too happy to see a Rod come down either.  Tutor for Hurkyl's Recall, I guess.

I'll post again when I have some numbers.

[wraith985]

After testing Limbo's build, I take back what I said about the lack of Glimpse. The draw7s are excellent at giving me all the cards I need, and the deck seemed to goldfish more consistently as well. Steelshapers are much better than I thought they'd be. andrewpate's question is valid, though - with so much power, why not just play a better Tendrils deck?

Null Rod is horribly bad times for Skullclamp, but afaik only Fish runs it MD, and Fish isn't played much anymore. If I'm wrong, though, someone correct me.

[Tristal]

One thing I'll go ahead and say I'm going to try is Genesis Chamber.  The Japanese Auriok Steelshaper deck from Standard just before the banning functioned very similarly to this deck (just much slower), and it had Genesis Chambers in it.  A Steelshaper, a Chamber, a Skullclamp, and a couple of Kobolds would draw your deck with no difficulty and no mana.  

I believe your calculations are off, that would most certainly come to 4W, and a lot of difficulty actually getting that combination of cards.

Short Version: Glimpse only depends on Kobolds.  Steelshaper depends on Skullclamp, a White Source, and Kobolds.

Long Version: One reason I don't like Steelshaper is that your deck does suddenly get seriously disrupted by Swords/Fire.  (With Steelshaper, you end up spending 1W to their W.  Without it, you just spend 1 to their W.  I'd rather deal with Twiddle than Early Frost.  Does that make sense?)  The more dead cards in their hand they have, the better.  When I Cabal Therapy (and I know what deck they're playing), there is -nothing- they can do to stop me from going off if I'm capable.  If I have to worry about Force, Stifle AND Swords, then you start to have problems.  Going off is all about how many outs they have.  If they have none, you win.

I still like Glimpse over Steelshaper, because you often have the mana to cast Glimpse and another threat (especially a draw 7, which turns into a draw 10, etc) and they will usually only have one counterspell.  Look at a hand like the following:
Gemstone Mine
Mox Emerald
Kobold of Kher Keep
Kobold of Kher Keep
Glimpse of Nature/Steelshaper
Skullclamp
Dark Ritual

This is a very tricky, but powerful hand to play.  With Glimpse, it's obvious - lead with Emerald and Glimpse.  If they counter Glimpse, your Clamp is free to go, so Ritual - Clamp - Kobold - Clamp - Kobold - Clamp into four more cards and more debauchery.  If they don't, you'll still get two cards for your trouble, with possibilities of more.
With Steelshaper, you don't have as many options, because he costs two to play.  This time, your Ritual isn't as broken, because you need the Mine for White AND Black.  (Note to Limbo: This is a big reason to increase the Spheres)  Your best play is probably first turn Steelshaper, with second turn "go-off" potential, or first turn Ritual - Clamp (pray it resolves) - do stuff.
I will admit that changing Mox Emerald to Mox Pearl makes a world of difference in this example hand; however, you will still have many more Green sources in the deck than White sources, between Gaea's Cradle and Elvish Spirit Guide.

I don't believe room could be made for Glimpse, Steelshaper AND Skullclamp, but it would be an interesting idea...

[Limbo]

Andrewpate's question is valid, though - with so much power, why not just play a better Tendrils deck?

I never said that kobolds is superior to TPS. I do claim that to win while using kobolds is more fun (for me at least). It probably is faster too, but more fragile.

Null Rod is horribly bad times for Skullclamp, but afaik only Fish runs it MD, and Fish isn't played much anymore. If I'm wrong, though, someone correct me.

Null rod indeed isn't that big a deal, since you can still win going the ritual+draw7 way.

Short Version: Glimpse only depends on Kobolds. Steelshaper depends on Skullclamp, a White Source, and Kobolds.

I don't use the steelshaper as a carddrawer, I use it as a mana source (that can double as a drawer if needed).

The order in which I usually like to play stuff, assuming a decent opening hand, and vs some sort of FoW packing deck, as that involves some interaction:
Therapy naming Force leads the way.

If I dont have a therapy, I just spend 1 for a clamp to fish for it. If clamp resolves, I can cast a steelshaper easy, and go nuts with kobolds. If not, I can go for a draw 7 and go nuts from there.

The disadvantage of steelshaper is that you need to spend W. The advantage of steelshaper however, is that after it hits play, you don't need to spend valuable colored mana to clamp kobolds.

Gaea's Cradle + Glimpse is not a combo btw. You need a few critters for the cradle to produce decent mana, but at the same time, you want that green mana BEFORE you cast the critters. How often does this affect play in the BG build?

By the way, nobody ever plowed a steelshaper. It did get mogg-fanatic owned though, but I owned that FCG-player with my bargain

PS: I am thinking of putting a tutor+tinker+DSC in the board to circumvent a load of hate. I will ponder on this for a while though.

PPS: Unless writing a primer to give advice on how to play a deck, it is usually unneeded to try to prove a point by stating "lets assume I have a starting hand with...". I can give examples when steelshaper is superior to glimpse, but I'd rather adres a more general point instead of looking at specific cases.

[KoBoLd]

Auriok Steelshaper does not have is place in the deck .

1st its a dead card most of the time .
2nd i play a budget vesion and i never had problem clampin my kobold.
3rd glimpse of nature is much better and is another way of winning.

[Limbo]

Auriok Steelshaper does not have is place in the deck .

1st its a dead card most of the time .
2nd i play a budget vesion and i never had problem clampin my kobold.
3rd glimpse of nature is much better and is another way of winning.

If you feel that auriok steelshapers suck, then by all means play some other card in its place.

1st: It isnt dead "most" of the time. Early game (turn 1/first half of turn 2) it can provide virtual mana or save colored mana to clamp kobolds. Mid game (2nd half of turn 2) if you have double clamp it is a draw 4 for 1W. With all the mad drawing, double clamp isnt hard to come by.

2nd: We are not trying to find the best budget version, we try to find the best powered version. If unpowered BG most certainly is the way to go, maybe try to start a threat [Budget]KoboldClamp/Glimpse.

3rd: How is casting glimpse better then resolving draw7's/bargain? And how is glimpse another way to win you the game?

Can you tell me what turn you usually go off? For me turn 1 is quite possible, turn 2 is common.

[Imsomniac101]

I think that the problem with some of the arguments as to whether or not you would run stuff like draw 7's, is that people are trying to take the deck in different directions. My personal belief is that if you were to add stuff like draw7's in, you might as well be playing TPS (this has been mentioned before). In my opinion, the BG version is actually better because:

a)  it has a higher chance of going off turn 1/turn 2
b)  it is less susceptible to mana screw

the second reason is also very important because the deck already has problems attaining the double Black mana cost of the Tendrils.

[Tristal]

If you think generating BB for Tendrils is a problem in Limbo's deck, you've never played it.

[Limbo]

If you think generating BB for Tendrils is a problem in Limbo's deck, you've never played it.

Indeed. I don't need to spend multiple black mana to clamp, my clamping costs 1W for all my kobolds together  

b) it is less susceptible to mana screw

I don't know if you tested my build or not, but I seldomly have mana problems (except for the occasional screw everybody has sometimes). My manabase is way different from the BG build. Neither amount nor color is a problem.

a) it has a higher chance of going off turn 1/turn 2

Yet again, my deck goes off turn 2 just as well or even better as a BG build. If not interrupted, I win turn 2. If interrupted, my build is more resilient then the BG build.

And yes, TPS is better then my multicolored koboldbuild. But then again, belcher is better then the BG koboldbuild.

[epeeguy]

If you feel that auriok steelshapers suck, then by all means play some other card in its place.

I don't think the right question is "Do Steelshapers suck?", but rather "Which card are you trying to abuse?" or "How many cards can be abused?".  In this case, it could be said that the approach can be:

1.)  Abuse the heck out of Glimpse of Nature, or
2.)  Abuse the heck out of Skullclamp, or
3.)  Abuse the heck out of both.

The Kobolds are just the "fuel" to abuse these two cards; but both end up doing the same thing.  Drawing lots of cards off free creatures.  Fun times that.  :lol:

1st: It isnt dead "most" of the time. Early game (turn 1/first half of turn 2) it can provide virtual mana or save colored mana to clamp kobolds. Mid game (2nd half of turn 2) if you have double clamp it is a draw 4 for 1W. With all the mad drawing, double clamp isnt hard to come by.

True, it isn't.  From just playing around with your deck, it has very good results and certainly works very well.  However, my major problem with your deck is that it is 5 colors, and sometimes you just don't get the draws in order to do everything you need it to do.  There's been at least two times where I can't even get things set up to go off turn 2.  And it's damnably hard to fight out from under a Trinisphere or Chalice for 0.

Under builds using Glimpse, Trinisphere is really the only problem.  Chalice for 0... so what if I don't get to Clamp my Kobolds?  I still draw a card for each one I played, even if it gets countered.  So, that still helps my Storm count, and I can still play around the Trinisphere by Wishing for something from my Sideboard to nuke it.

IMO, I think it's easier to shut down the build you run.  While the interaction between Skullclamp and Auriok Steelshaper is good, I think that the Glimpse plan really helps out.  In all fairness, I think both is the way to go; it's simply a question of how it can be done.

2nd: We are not trying to find the best budget version, we try to find the best powered version. If unpowered BG most certainly is the way to go, maybe try to start a threat [Budget]KoboldClamp/Glimpse.

Well, I would disagree as to who is "we" here, as there are a lot of different views as to what the engine should be.  And certainly, the post that started this thread was about abusing Glimpse, Skullclamp and Kobolds... and not in any particular way.

I think that there's plenty of room for disagreement as to which "engine" should be abused, and plenty of room for discussion regarding what it could be.  And certainly no need for a second thread discussing the exact same thing, just with a slightly different approach or concept.

Anyhow, no one (at least not me) is suggesting "unpowered" builds.  I'm more than happy to explore the various possibilities of the builds, and to see which one makes the most sense.

3rd: How is casting glimpse better then resolving draw7's/bargain? And how is glimpse another way to win you the game?

Consider this for a moment: you play your Draw 7, ending up with a handful of Kobolds and you still haven't gotten your Steelshaper or Skullclamp on the board.  This hand, while you can empty it, doesn't really give you a lot to work with.  Does it?

On the other hand, if you played Glimpse before this, then this hand is a FREE Draw 7.  If you played 2 Glimpses before this, then it's a Draw 14.  And it doesn't cost you life or mana to do it.  If you draw into the Steelshaper/Skullclamp combo, then you can just go off... with a single Draw 7.  Suddenly your investment of became that much better when combined with something else.

Is playing Glimpse better than a Draw 7 or Yawgmoth's Bargain/Necropotence?  By itself, no.  But, with the amount of free creatures you have, and that Glimpse keeps drawing cards for each one... well, I think it can prove very valuable and make the deck more solid.

Anyhow, taking some ideas from your deck, and applying it to mine, here's what I'm testing now:

Main Deck
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
3 Ornithopter
2 Auriok Steelshaper

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
2 Tendrils of Agony

1 Crop Rotation
1 Death Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
1 Gaea’s Cradle
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby

Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Deconstruct
3 Scavenger Folk
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm

It takes advantage of both interactions between Glimpse and the Steelshaper, allowing you to play a Kobold and draw, then clamp a Kobold and draw 2 more.  That's 3 cards for the cost of .  I also think that this is a lot more reliable than my prior build, and I really like the additions of Seal of Cleansing and Steelshaper.

Thoughts?

[Tristal]

Burning Wish looks like it'd be a lot better than Death Wish with your sideboard.

[epeeguy]

I wasn't sure about that.  Burning Wish would let me grab either Deconstruct or Tendrils of Agony; and admitedly, grabbing either one of those is probably first on my list (Deconstruct in order to get rid of a Trinisphere, or Tendrils if I can't draw one of the two in my deck).

On the other hand, Death Wish gives me access to those two, as well as Seal of Cleansing, Xantid Swarm and/or Scavenger Folk (depending on circumstances).  All of which can be useful at times (Seal can be used to deal with a problem Enchantment or Artifact, Xantid Swarm allows me to use my second main phase to go off, etc.).

However, it occurs to me that running Living Wish and Burning Wish would allow me to get everything except for the Seal of Cleaning.  And really, that gives me access to just about anything I'd need to deal with problems on the board.  Plus, both of those are cheaper to cast than Death Wish (unless Trinisphere is on the table).

I'm still not certain on it, and am open to changing out the Death Wish for Burning Wish and/or Living Wish... though I'd need to cut something to run both.  In which case, I'd probably cut the 3rd Ornithopter (which is just there for more Glimpse fuel).  But it's an idea.  

[Limbo]

@epeeguy: Although I really like your deck as you posted it now (I wouldn't try the previous examined BG build at a tourny, but I could play this), there is one thing I dislike. This is probably more a personal thing, but I don't like the 7 additional "dead cards" (thopters + ESG).

The biggest difference between our list is that you use ESG's as a mana source, whereas I use more pemanent mana sources (a land or 3 more), and you run glimpses where I use addional direct draw.

As I said, it is just personal preference. I think both builds are fast, quite stable and fun.

One question though. Where are the hurkyls realls / rebuilds main/side? As you will usually wish for artifact hate, why not play a recall there? I play 3 (1 MD, 2 SB) and I really like 'm.

And once again, compliments on the build. It indeed incorporates most good ideas from this thread without getting unfocused.

[epeeguy]

I thought about those; but honestly, I'm disinclined to run Blue, since that would make it a 5 color deck, and then start to be come... well, unfocused(?).  When I tried out your build, I just found that there were so many different things in there that... well, it just didn't work for me.  Not that it's weaker, just it wasn't my style of deck at that point.

So, I figured I'd stick with answers in the colors I was running (Green, Black and Red, then White based on your build).  While Rebuild allows a lot of different permutations, especially helping you go off next turn, really I can accomplish the same thing with the Glimpse/ESG approach.  Especially once I start really drawing into cards.

I agree, more permanent mana sources are "better"... but I like the quick acceleration that the ESGs provide.  They can be used to accomplish a lot of things, including powering out Skullclamps and early Glimpse.  So, I've found them to be quite workable.

Thanks for the compliment BTW.  I really liked your build, and thought you made some good choices.  While I don't like the Blue, I think the Auriok Steelshaper addition is the right choice.  

@Tristal: After alot of thought, I'm definitely in agreement with you on Burning Wish.  I think you were spot on there, as it satisfies my needs a lot better than Death Wish.  It leaves me plenty of fuel for Necropotence/Bargain (in terms of life) and gets exactly what I'm looking for, rather than give me unnecessary flexibility.  Good call with that.

[Imsomniac101]

Limbo. I started goldfishing your version of kobolds and let me just say that it is horribly inconsistent. I cannot see how people can claim that your list is much more consistent than andrewpate's BG version. While goldfishing, I noticed several things:

a) your deck can't cast auriok salvagers consistently on turn 1.
b) even if you can cast the salvagers you rarely have the white mana to use its ability.
c) cards like the Draw 7's and Necro/Bargain are all well and good in decks with manabases to support such cards but in such a deck you can hardly cast said cards and tendrils in the same turn.

[epeeguy]

a) your deck can't cast auriok salvagers consistently on turn 1.
b) even if you can cast the salvagers you rarely have the white mana to use its ability.
c) cards like the Draw 7's and Necro/Bargain are all well and good in decks with manabases to support such cards but in such a deck you can hardly cast said cards and tendrils in the same turn.

I can't speak for Limbo, but after having played his deck a few times, I can only believe that you are probably not playing it correctly.  If you are trying to go off the same turn that you are playing cards like Necropotence or Yawgmoth's Bargain, then you're not setting things up correctly.  In reality, those cards help you go off the next turn.  The Draw 7s are actually a different story, as those can help you go off in the turn you play them.

As for the Salvagers... I think you are confusing those with the Steelshapers that are actually in the deck.  They are very easy to play on turn 1, and don't require mana to use (they actually save you mana when you go to Skullclamp your Kobolds).  I agree, Auriok Salvagers won't work at all... but that's why they aren't in the deck.  If you've been playing with them in yours... then you've been playing the wrong deck.

[Tristal]

Limbo. I started goldfishing your version of kobolds and let me just say that it is horribly inconsistent. I cannot see how people can claim that your list is much more consistent than andrewpate's BG version. While goldfishing, I noticed several things:

a) your deck can't cast auriok salvagers consistently on turn 1.
b) even if you can cast the salvagers you rarely have the white mana to use its ability.
c) cards like the Draw 7's and Necro/Bargain are all well and good in decks with manabases to support such cards but in such a deck you can hardly cast said cards and tendrils in the same turn.

This is the funniest post I've ever read.

[JamesPr]

I think he needs to goldfish some more.

He got Auriok Salvagers mixed up with Auriok Steelshaper.  You can cast tendrils easily with all the draw sevens City/Gemstone/Jet/Petal/Lotus all can produce black mana.  You just float two black till you're ready to use it.

[Imsomniac101]

Yes, your right. I have the wrong card in the deck  

I have made the (ahem) appropriate changes. I goldfished a little bit more and getting white mana was a problem for me. You have 8 white sources in your deck (including chromatic sphere) and six of those are land. In the BG version 5 land seemed a little to many and in your version you hav 6!

I found it really annoying that I had to cast salvagers, then had to wait a turn to play a Draw 7 while still needing the mana to play the double Black mana cost of tendrils (and this is all assuming that you have skullclamp already on the board).

[yankeedave]

How about this: You have two off colour mana in mana pool, say two white, with ESG in hand and at least one creaure in play-> remove ESG for   -> crop rotation away tapped gaea's cradle or bayou -> Get Phyrexian Tower, tap tap and sac clamped creature for     and two cards, Tendrils for the win (assuming high enough storm count)

How's this grab ya?