Is ww playable as a strong hate deck

[bebe]

Let's look at what we can bring into the deck as hate first ...

FCG: Aggro:  Javelineer, Angel, STP, BeB, Maze of Ith  
TPS: Mage, Believer, CoV  
Dragon : Samurai, Kami, Abolish, STP, Aura of Silence
Oath of Druids : Kami, Abolish, STP, Mage, Maze of Ith, Aura of Silence
Workshop Aggro :  Abolish, Samurai, Maze of Ith, Aura of Silence  
Stax : Abolish, Meddling Mage, Javelineer, Samurai, Maze of Ith, Aura of Silence
Drain Slaver : Meddling Mage, Javelineers, Samurais, Believer
Combo: Believer, Mage, CoV
Control: Aether Vial, Mage

4 icatian javeliners
4 meddling mage
4 samurai of the pale curtain
3 kami of the ancient law
3 true believer
2 exalted angel

4 swords to plowshares
3 abolish

4 aether vial
4 standstill
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk

6 plains
2 tundra
2 island
4 flooded strand
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 mox pearl/ plains for budget
1 mox sapphire/ island for budget

sb:
3 chalice of the void
3 aura of silence
3 maze of ith
2 devout witness  
2 beb
1 kami of the ancient law
1 true believer

So what we have we got?
A strong draw engine ...
Standstill is excellent in the deck with the Vial. Ancestral is a great  supplement  
Strong spells ...
Both StP and Abolish are svery good in the current meta.
Decent finisher ...
The Angel is white's best finisher and a difficult creature to deal with
Speed and consistency ...
Even budgetized this deck has very fast answers  to allow it to keep the tempo up and stall the opponent long enough to take board control

Considerations ...
Library of Alexandria
Whipcorder
Brainstorm
Enlightened Tutor
Null Rod
Argivian Find

Why would you play this over FCG, R/g beatz, Fish or U/g Madness?
This build is consistent and unexpected with a plethora of usable hate.  The sheer number of playable hate cards makes this deck viable. It is also flexible enough to be tweaked for particular metas. Its draw engine is excellent and the Vial in this deck is just too good to dismiss lightly.

Test results ...
These have been mixed. We tweaked the creature base and spells a number of times looking for the right mix to be consistent against the meta as a whole. It was not transparent in the least. Obviously you can maindeck the appropriate spells to hose Oath or Slaver but then you weaken the deck against other match ups. Aggro is problematic. Bazaar Madness and Stax can just overun you before you get going. Combo can go off turn one before you get a Believer or Mage down. The deck has no true byes. It has winnable match ups if you mulligan appropriately and correctly assess your opponents threats. Last but not least it was designed to played on a budget - you can ramp it up with power but it was designed to take advantage of it and as such suffers from some of budget builds' drawbacks.

[GreatCthulhu]

You're already running blue and a large amount of basics, why not try Back to Basics for a little mana denial?  It seems like it could make Workshop match-ups better as well as a few others.

[jpmeyer]

While it's ass slow, I saw an Italian list that was pretty cool.  It was something like this:

13 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Aether Vial
4 Skullclamp
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal

4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Soltari Priest
4 Silver Knight

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abolish

[bebe]

The Italian list is slow as is ours to a point but Standstill > Skullclamp in this build. Vial/Standstill just makes sense and refilling your hand without saccing your creatures is a solid approach. You can play out threats and responses from turn one with both these decks and by turn three should have a measure of board control. Certainly blue is a factor in our build that the Italians have passed over. Mage is also a card that is central to the deck. Though the deck have similarities they have some key differences. Is Silver Knight better than Exalted Angel against aggro given that you can chump and StP away early threats. Which card says I win?

Back to Basics is good and is a possible sideboard card but decks today are prepared for B2B. Yes it is good against workshop and 4cc. Is it better than Aura of Silence, Witness, Null Rod, Serenity or Energy Flux? We chose Witness and Auras for the side but could have easily chosen a number of other answers.

[virtual]

"I haven't tested this at all, so just throwing out some ideas.  

Is it viable to turn the deck a bit closer to fish since you went the route of standstill?  Spiketails might be good tempo boost, and some dazes/forces could shore up your matchup versus combo.  

The maindeck hate seems good, but counters are md hate versus everything that hasn't resolved. I guess without cloud of faeries spiketails aren't quite as hot, but they have always seemed to me like the best creature of fish, certainly when playing against them they are a pain in the...

my 2 cents.
-Virtual

[andrewpate]

Without really doing any testing, Daze/Force of Will and the like seems bad to me on theoretical grounds due to the fact that it skews the manabase toward blue.  One of the big strengths of this deck is the large number of basics, and something like 3 Plains, 3 Islands, 4 Tundras, and 4 Flooded Strands sounds like a train wreck in the making.  The point of this over Fish is the bit about not scooping to Back to Basics, not to mention the smooth mana draws (we've all seen the hapless Fish players fetching up basic Islands only to get stuck on 1 red mana when it comes double-Lavamancer time).  Potent reactive answers like Abolish and Swords to Plowshares are like the one thing white really has going for it, so permission is not as essential as for other colors.

I guess what I'm really asking would be, "If Fish is bad, how is removing direct damage in favor of removal going to make it good?"

[bebe]

Fish flat out loses against Titans, Collossi and Oaths. This deck doesn't. We have a control aggro build built along lines that seem to be similar to Fish but actually are quite different. Why do I need counters against anything but combo? This build has its own set of solutions to combo. A resolved Mage will hose a number of decks with a minimum investment in cards. Almost all the hate serves the deck well as you will seldom draw a useless card as Abolish in Vintage can always be used and only a few combo decks render StPs useless. All the other hate provides beats.
Direct burn is just superflous to the deck. There is little that red offers that white cannot deal with more efficiently in Vintage.
It is no surprise that white is being ignored. There are no tournament results to support it so it becomes a theoretical exercise  for most. I am not going to make the mistake of saying " go test the deck and then comment", as I would never test a deck that I did not find interesting. I'm hoping to just spark a little interest in what has become a dead arch type for good reasons. The cards needed to revive white just did not exist four months ago. It is the Vial, Kami and Samurai that make this deck playable. With the advent of a new block we now have weapons for white that have never been examined fully. Maybe its time to start the dialogue.

[BlkXplsn]

This deck is really fun to play. Props to Bebe and\or his team.  

I've played about 20 games with it, and I like serenity in the board over aura of silence. I think if the intent of the aura is to hurt artifacts, I would rather play something that killed all of them in play rather than hindering them or killing one. If the intent of aura is to hurt oath, I would use seal of clensing \ disenchant or kami (which has good synergy with the vials). The difference between casting it turn 1\2 vs. the aura's turn 2\3 is not a small matter. You can easily make the comparison of playing a serenity t2 and waiting until t3 for it to work and playing the aura t3 and popping it to kill something.

To clarify; IMO, serenity is better vs. an artifact field, and seal \ disenchant \ kami is better vs. oath. I think the deck has enough hate cards maindecked that you can choose a specific matchup you want to help with the sideboard cards, and thus should choose the ones that are better for that matchup even if they are worse in the other.

This deck is much easier to play when you know what your opponent is playing; if a person were to take this to a tourney, they would be best served scouting well or enlisting the help of teammates.

I hope this was coherent.

EDIT: Kami isn't Monk Realist. D'oh.

[jpmeyer]

The Serenity vs. Aura of Silence issue is awfully thorny.  You can't reliably cast Aura turn 2, making it a tad too expensive.  However, Serenity kills your Aether Vial, which is one of the best cards in your deck against Workshop decks.

[M]

Just some thoughts of mine on WW hate (in the Samurai age), and the cards that go in.
Maybe you can use it, maybe you can't.
It's mostly based on the Scandinavian metagame.
None of this is set in stone anyway.

True Believer + Samurai of the Pale Curtain is what makes the deck playable. Before the Samurai you had to either splash blue for the less effective Meddling Mage or play with some 2/2 evasion and/or protection from some color, which is just useless. Vanilla creatures like Savannah Lions are also crap, and we need to let them go. (1-2 Isamaru is OK.)

The blue splash for Vial + Standstill looks interesting. Like I said, I don't think Meddling Mage is necessary now that we have Samurai, but maybe the splash is worth it for Standstill alone. Although in my experience 4 Standstill without any manlands is never optimal, unless your environment is 100% control. There is also negative synergy between Ancestral and True Believer, but at least you don't use Skullclamp + Samurai which is just sad.

In a Stax infected environment you can also use a mono-white build with 4 Land Tax.
This will let you play 4 Remote Farm, which in turn will let you play with 4 Aura of Silence.
Aura of Silence is the correct maindeck choice for WW because it hurts prison AND combo. Abolish is useless against TPS-like decks, and is not that easy to cast with the alternative cost anyway, unless you have Land Tax in play.
Abolish is a sideboard card against prison and Oath.

You don't need 4 StP AND 4 Javelineers maindeck. The Javelineers are only marginally useful. You can take out Welders with StP if you have to, and you can just overrun other little weenies. 4 StP have worked well for me as the only maindeck creature kill.
Auriok Transfixer taps Trinisphere and Colossus. It's not bad.
Army of Allah is an excellent finisher in a deck with 20+ creatures.

Mother of Runes is strong against aggro and can make a turn two 'hard lock' against combo with True Believer.
Cho-Arrim Alchemist is an overlooked creature. Threats in T1 are often HUGE, and this little spellshaper deals with them all. Anything from Akroma+SotN to Charbelcher and Psychatog. Nice synergy with Land Tax too.

[bebe]

You have some interesting ideas. However, Mage is golden. I've raped decks   in testing with it including Oath, Tog and Workshop. Javeliners are an optional card though. I agree. You do not need Army of Allah. It is win more in this build as Exalteds are IMHO better overall.  Mother was considered in the the Javelineers spot but our meta is rife with Welders and Fish seems the only remaining aggro deck. Now Auriok Transfixers is interesting as a one drop. Might warrant testing.
Interesting that you mention Believers and Samurai but do not see the relevancy of Kami. This card is very strong today and Vial is actually quite key to the deck's potency as well as making Standstill viable.

[Chaos Blade]

Army Of Allah is savage. Lovin that Middle Eastern heritage. I also see this deck going in two directions. A Skullclamp and Standstill version. I could see the Skullclamp version faster as you want to keep sacrificing creatures and the Standstill more laid back and controlling laying men on with Vial. Then another debate I have is keeping it mono blue or mono white.

[M]

Kami of Ancient Law is obviously strong against Oath, as is Meddling Mage. The reason I don't like maindeck Kami is that he is just a Grizzly Bear against the two decks I consider strongest right here and right now: TPS and Stax. Against Oath, Fish and FCG, Kami is the way to go. I think I'll reserve the right to change my mind on Kami...

Army of Allah is not win more, it's relevant as a finisher. Because without it (or with something controllish like Exalted in its place) the deck soon becomes predictable as a bus schedule. Especially combo can just wait until the very last moment before doing anything. As long as they don't die next turn, they can keep setting up. A finisher like Army of Allah prevents this and makes the deck upredictable. +2/+0 is also surprisingly much damage, even by T1 standards. In an environment with little to no creature removal it effectively speeds up the kill by one turn.

I can see the synergy between Vial and Standstill. You still can't drop a Standstill with nothing on the table however, like you could if you had six manlands. But if it works, it works :)

[Cavius The Great]

What about using Land Tax and Empyrial Plate or Armor? That's always an option. And if you're gonna run Mox Diamond you should atleast play Tithe.

[bebe]

Well Army and Exalted both cost three mana ( well initially anyway). Either can be countered. By turn four I would rather have an Exalted, a creature, Vial and Standstill on the table on the table over Army in my hand. But that is my preference. At this point Vial/Standstill becomes deadly.

If  TPS and Stax are your meta you really want Mage and Believer for TPS and Chalice and Auras from the side. I would bring in relevant hate for Stax in Auras, Witnesses and Mazes. Here, BTW, I would rather have Exalteds.

Really, we are looking two different approaches . You seem to favor a more aggressive approach where I feel that the hate will buy me more than enough time to win. Fish does not use any finisher yet still manages to win. Until Stax and Oath became prominent Fish was a very strong deck. White has answers for both.  

Having said that I CAN SEE the deck being taken in different directions. I have tried to avoid the White Lightning mentality for this build but without tournament results, I cannot be sure which approach in the end is the better. I would encourage others to design an alternative build without Standstill and Vials but the Italian build in testing was not as consistent.

Just a word on Standstill - we played an Electric Eel/Slith/Standstill deck in Toronto with excellent results without relying on manlands. Any deck that can drop  alot of creatures quickly and has a method of bypassing the 'Still can utilize it as one of the best draw mechanisms in the game.

[That0neguy]

Here in MN a couple weeks ago WW was doing pretty good even against workshop and Oath, but all I know about the deck lists is that they had maindeck 4 STP 4 Disenchant and 4 of some other white removal (I don't remeber what though)  It was more traditional WW with lions and shadow guys too.  They also had aditional things like serenity in SB.  I think it also had land tax/Empyrial Plate which gave the deck get some pretty quick kills if unanswered.

The field that it was playing in was pretty small but there were some good decks including Oath and Stacker (then food chain and landstill and maby Bazzar Madness but it was a while ago so im not sure).

Also the Abolish doesn't seem that good since its free but its card disadvantage and has a pretty specific alternate cc with only 6 plains MD.  I would cut the tundras for more basic lands since you only need a couple islands for standstills and mages but the islands/ fetch lands should be fine you might want to test that since it makes you even less vulnerable to wastelands(you could also just cut the number down to like 1/2 if you really need to have access to both colors).

[Cavius The Great]

Also the Abolish doesn't seem that good since its free but its card disadvantage and has a pretty specific alternate cc with only 6 plains MD.

That's why Land Tax would be good in the deck. It makes Abolish extra efficient with the alternate casting cost.

[TheDeadMan]

For sometime now I have been tinkering with a mono white weenie deck and have been having some sucess. In my testing I have been finding a utility mix of creatures that were not commonly regarded: spurnmage advocate, deftblade elite, true believer, and a card I am testing eight and a half tails. Each of these creatures have unique uses which I will get into:

spurnmage advocate: He is the heart and soul of the deck vs decks like oath, 5/3, 7/10. In the oath matchup you end up bouncing their lands from grave allmost every time, giving you time to get out other utility creatures such as whipcorders. Against welder decks you have the ability to steal away welder targets or bounce cards that are rendered useless by null rod.

deftblade elite: He is more of an answer to artifact fattys and random decks than anything, but he is very usefull when your opponent make the slip and drops a non active welder

true believer: He is allmost the only chance you have to beating a combo deck like tps, a nice side effect is he stops mindslaver.

eight and a half tails: this is more of a fun card I have been testing, it has been showing some sucess but having only one limits itas usage. I am thinking to make the deck more consistant I am going to switch it for whipcorder #4.

 Like older ww decks I prefer the 4/4/4 hate method 4 swords 4 null rod 4 disenchant effects. The null rods and swords are self explinatory so I wont get into them, atm though I am not to sure about the 4 disenchant effect slot. Currently I am using 2 abolish 2 aura of silence. They bpth serve diffrent purposes, the abolish compliment the 4 land tax that I prefer in ww. Having 4 of them though is abit to many so I turned to aura of silence it is a 3cc so it can be very slow against artifact decks, but it can be the deciding factor if ot comes down right after a null rod. After explaning my card odd selections and my feelings on accepted cards I present my decklist:

1CC: 12
1 isamaru hound of konda
2 savannah lions
3 icatian javelineers
3 spurnmage advocate
3 deftblade elite  

2CC: 12
1 eight and a half tails
3 whipcorder
4 true believer
4 samurai of the pale curtain

Removal: 12
2 abolish
2 aura of silence
4 swords to plowshares
4 null rod

Deck Thinning: 4
4 land tax

Mana:20
1 mox pearl
3 open land slots
16 plains

Those open land slots are more personal preference and metagame spefic, For the most part the choices are maze of ith or stripmine effects. In my version I run kjeldoran outpost mostly due because everyone plays casual till we have our monthly power tourney. When I play in an unknown metagame I prefer the mix of 1 stripmine 2 maze. I hope this post have helped anyone thinking of playing ww and have brought new ideas forward.

[Nantuko Rice]

Just a note that no one pointed out...

[card]Skullclamp[/card] + [card]Samurai of Pale Curtain[/card] = No

[erchamion]

Just a note that no one pointed out...

Skullclamp + Samurai of Pale Curtain = No

uhmmm interesting, and why?

i mean what's the advantage in having creatures in graveyard instead of removed from game since you have no way to bring them back to hand/table anyway...

[Kasuras]

i mean what's the advantage in having creatures in graveyard instead of removed from game since you have no way to bring them back to hand/table anyway...

Please read Skullclamp again:



And note the "whenever equipped is put into a graveyard".

[TheDeadMan]

So far the biggest question that needs to be answered is: are tricks like vial and skull clamp superior to null rod? I believe the meta answer to this question will govern wether or not  you splash a color.

[bebe]

So far the biggest question that needs to be answered is: are tricks like vial and skull clamp superior to null rod? I believe the meta answer to this question will govern wether or not you splash a color.

This is simplistic. Blue is not splashed for Vial tricks only. Meddling Mage, Time Walk, Ancestral and Standstill bring alot to the table. Vial was added as insurance and indeed could be used in a monowhite build.
Skullclamp/Null rod is an issue only if Skullclamp becomes your draw engine. I am not at all convinced of Skullclamp's efficiency in Type 1 outside of Affinity as we have attempted to utilise it in Sligh and other decks with little success.  

Also the Abolish doesn't seem that good since its free but its card disadvantage and has a pretty specific alternate cc with only 6 plains MD. I would cut the tundras for more basic lands

On Abolish note that it says discard a 'plains' from your hand. As far as I know Tundras count as Plains. That said there is a valid argument to use Auras main in their stead. We went back and forth.

That's why Land Tax would be good in the deck. It makes Abolish extra efficient with the alternate casting cost.

There is some sense to adding Tithe and Land Tax but overall the deck functions better without. The old Empyrial/Tax configuration does doesn't cut it  in todays meta.
Note the amount of enchantment/artifact hate that this deck can bring. Sometimes a 3cc spell can be advantageous under a Chalice. Not that there are not enough alternatives. We had considered Seals of Cleansing as an alternative and even considered Seal of Removal in the side for Oath. The beauty of white splash is the improved draw and access to solutions.  could use Waterfront Bouncers main deck in an Oath heavy environment.
I'm glad to see that the arch type has sparked comments. I would not for a minute be arrogant enough to boast that our test deck is definitive. I think it is one of many directions the deck can take. We began without Moxenand P9 in initil testing looking for a build that outperforms Fish, U/g and FCG without power. Ancestral/walk could be Impulses, Brainstorms, etc. Moxen can be plains. The deck is only marginally slower as it never played out that quickly anyway. It is reactive rather than proactive and feels more like control than aggro often. A more aggro oriented deck is possible but in todays meta it does not seem to fly as well.

[TheDeadMan]

On the issue of vial I wish I could say I have tested it extensively I would like further opinions on the issue. Do you think it has merit in a mono colored deck such as the one I have listed? So far in my rather limited testing the semi temo boost and other tricks have merits, but I am still not convinced they are better than null rods.

[erchamion]

And note the "whenever equipped is put into a graveyard".

  my bad i apologize  

[Discozombie]

Here is a modified version of a deck I ran when 4 gush tog and maskanought were running about.  Preacher is a hugely overlooked creature.  This is the budget version.

WhiteTrash

4 Preacher
4 Icatian Javlineers
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 True Believer
4 8 and 1/2 Tails
4 Whipcorder

4 STP
4 Null Rod
4 Sacred Mesa
4 Land Tax

4 Remote Farm
16 Plains

quick brief

Preacher- this guy is just freaking nuts.  Grab one of their critters to chump one of their attackers then grab another one next turn.  Tog, oath, anything.  Its often looked over because it does not target.

Icatian Javlineers-They are just great utility with out having to waste an STP on a welder

Samurai of the Pale Curtain-allows the deck to survive and is the item that allows ww to even exist in todays meta

True Believer-another shut down that allows for survival

8 and 1/2 Tails-the white morphling

Whipcorder-he's just cool tech to have

STP-uh moving on

Null Rod-just too good not to use

Sacred Mesa-4 seems high but I have always liked total redundancy in decks that have little to no draw.  It ensures you have it when you want it, and that you can use it when you need to.  Great finisher that forgives ww's lack of later game draw.  Good against smokestack.

Land Tax-thins

Remote Farm-XL plus synergy with tax

Plains-16 is high I know but I do not like to rely on land tax either

The most notable exclusion in this build are the waste/strip effects.  I do not find them to be as effective in this build as they should be.  There are many double white casting costs and this deck needs all the W it can get.  I suppose that 4 plains could be subbed for a 3/1 waste strip package but I do not think it would be required.

[Toad]

Weathered Wayfarer is like Land Tax, except It can get Wasteland, Strip Mine and can randomly deal some points of damage.

I really really like 4 Icatian Javelineers there, It's a strong 1-drop, far better than Savannah Lions. Skullclamp is quite good since It allows most of your creatures to kill Juggernaut in Combat.

I would use Skullclamp over Standstill. Even if the synergy between Standstill and Aether Vial is OK, Standstill is still a rather weak card and you have no manlands in the deck. Skullclamps are overall better against Aggro (including Workshop Aggro), Oath of Druids and probably most of the Control decks.  Turn 1 Aether Vial for turn 2 Standstill is not really impressive.

[Roxas]

On the issue of vial I wish I could say I have tested it extensively I would like further opinions on the issue. Do you think it has merit in a mono colored deck such as the one I have listed? So far in my rather limited testing the semi temo boost and other tricks have merits, but I am still not convinced they are better than null rods.

Don't forget that Vial lets you play creatures under Trinisphere.  I'd say that alone makes it better than Null Rod, which doesn't stop very much anyway.

[j]

I'm happy for that Italian top8 and all and bebe and folks have apparently tested this more than I have tested anything ever but I have to disagree with a couple of things here.

It is great to see innovation in budjet deck building. However, I simply cannot find a reason for not using the "budjet staples" in attempts to beat the "decks to beat". Null Rod and and Force of Will happen to be huge in the two (probably) most important matchups: Tendrills and CS, not to mention Stax. As for the Force of Will question: not only are Mages the best thing white has to offer in the first place but I really wonder why Curiosity is not seeing play in these decks. Not that many blockers around. Complementing the 12 blue cards mentioned so far with cards like Brainstorm, Stifle, Spiketail etc. should be easy. Samurai, True Believer and Kami are hot but can't do everything by their selves. Building a manabase to support blue and double white consistently is doable.

Against CS:
bebes original build has lots of good stuff here. (Replacing javelineers with FoWs won't harm you though.) Null Believer is huge.

Against Tendrills:
True Believers shine as do Null Rod and FoW.

Against Stax:
Mages and Samurai are golden. Stifle buys some beautirul time. FoW.

Against Oath:
Not much you can do. bebes weenies might even be better here . StP might help game 1. They might also be useful in games 2 and 3. Or perhaps they will side in angels or just smash you with a Morphling.
Magi, Kamis, the usual.

[TheDeadMan]

Thanks you reb and bebe for bringing forward the tech of aether vial. I have been testing it alot recently, and have found it to be alot better than null rod providing combat tricks and making my creatures uncounterable. To off set the loss of null rods I have been trying various more effective artifact removal than the usual disenchant effects( seal, aura, abolish) In my testing I have found serenity to be an effective choice given it is mass removal. This does weaken some matches like CS, but does greatly improve the stax, 5/3, HHH, and 7/10 match. To go along with the addition of serenity and vial I have been running an enlightened tutor over the 4th land tax.