Is ww playable as a strong hate deck

[Alfred]

Bebe:
While I like the deck a lot, I think that WW needs to be more disruptive in the current environment in order to stand a chance. I think that the list I provide is better at accomplishing this:

4x Icatian Javeleneers
3x Preacher
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abolish
1x Seal of Cleansing
4x Null Rod
2x Savannah Lions
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3x Blood Moon
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Land Tax
4x Flooded Strand
4x Plateau
9x Plains
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Icatian Javeleneers: This card is very good. This card can take out the most potent creature in the format (Goblin Welder) along with fish creatures, and other 1 toughness doods.

Preacher: As explained earlier, in a format with few creatures, the ones being played are quite powerful, and as a result, preacher is a powerful card.

Swords to Plowshares: A very powerful card.

Abolish/Seal of Cleansing: I think that it's important to have 4 maindecked disenchant effects, and abolish's ACC can hurt, especially when there is no land tax around, thus the appearance of Seal.

Null Rod: I am simply purplexed by the absence of Null Rod in a lot of the lists. In a format with moxen, Null Rod is a powerful card.

Savannah Lions/Isamaru: Isamarus are better than lions, but the 2/2 setup is necissary because due to Isamaru's legendary status. First turn 2 power creatures put the pressure on early, slipping down under non-FoW countermagic.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain: I can see it's uses in some matchups, but this is one of the iffy spots in the deck. Though it is a creature that hoses dragon, and is pretty good against other aggro decks, it's a vanilla 2/2 for WW a lot of the time. I'm currently going back and forth between this and True Beleiver. Suggestions needed.

Blood Moon: This card can provide a powerful effect against workshop and control decks, nullifying fetchlands and the like.

Mogg Fanatic: Another important one-drop that hates against welder-based workshop decks.

Land Tax: Comes down first turn, thins land, color fixes, fuels abolish etc. Good card.

I think the proper way to play WW is to make it a hate deck that beats. Take a look at your metagame, what are the dominant decks? Are a lot of them artifact aggro? You might want to consider something like this setup.

[Diego C]

Hi everybody,

it's a bit of time I am reading this 3d, and I would like to share with you my italian Weenie experience.
I noticed very interesting ideas in this topic, first of all the VialStill engine, so I decided to test it.

First of all, I know and admit that there are *better* decks, even in budget field [fish u/x, or Oath itself, rid out of Drains],  but I do like my critters, and I want to keep the weenie spirit alive in my playstyle.

Let's go thru the decklist.

    Mana base [22]
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Tundra
    5 Plains
    1 Island
    1 Karakas
    2 Mishra's Factory
    3 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Chrome Mox
    1 Lotus Petal

-Quite solid basic-lands base [even mono island], many fetchlands [to get the best from Brainstorm and Wayfarer], and only two duals, so we aren't target of opponent's wastelands that often;
-Four strip-effects to get a decent denial action; I do not play 5 cause I search them with the Wayfarer, and I need as much colored mana as it is possible;
-Two Mishras, best manland ever. Under Standstill, possibly the best drop. I think playing more is redundant, we have got many critters, and it is a colorless source;
-Karakas: not necessary, only a tool against Oath/Karn. Could be a Plains;
-Two boosts to have a nice start. They help to keep that GodHand not provided with coloured lands =).

    Critters [23]
    4 Icatian Javelineers
    3 Weathered Wayfarer
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
    4 Soltari Priest
    2 Devout Witness
    2 Gilded Drake

-I do love javelineers. They kill welder, lavamancer, fish creatures, and they are still a 2/1 blocker actually. And, last but not least, it solves many sideboard problems [1st card I side out usually];
-Wayfarer is the engine: it searches many tools, and it fits one-counter charged Vial. I think playing 4 is too much, cause one in play is more than enough, and it isn't that effective when it's time to beat;
-Meddling Mage: strong. A 2/2 drop for 2, with a cool ability. Effective against combo [dropped thru vial], and many other decks: try to name Cunning wish, Mana drain, Dark Ritual, Smokestack..possibly the best creature in the deck. Beware of reb!;
-Samurai of the pale curtain: quite effective in combat phase, it has a very nice effect in the game however: no crucible recursion, no worldgorger combo, no fuel to lavamancer, no Skullclamp draw. Still a 2/2 able to kill mishra without being harmed;
-Soltari Priest: the kill condition, it beats strong without fear of being blocked, and protection gives extra quality;

Then, 4 variable slots:
-Devout Witness has got a nice ability against many decks [anyone said Chalice of the Void?]. The problem is that it's a slow drop, and it could be very late when we can actually use it, as it is so easy to get rid of it; anyway, it is so interesting that I cannot let it out of the build at least for now;
-Gilded Drake is another tool against Oath and some hard-to-remove fattie out there if I lack of StP [Colossus, Sundering Titan, even a DoJ angel token, who knows], or even a Goblin Welder!
Could be easily changed with Silver Knight if we think we are gonna face many red based aggro deck, or even Isamaru, to drop it thru 1-counter vial.

    Draw, Tools, Removals [15]
    4 AEther Vial
    3 Standstill
    3 Brainstorm
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Swords to Plowshares

-Aether Vial is so strong that forced me to get Null rod out of the deck; it is as effective against aggro decks [think about the tricks you can make in combat phase, dropping a samurai or a drake] as it is against control strategy. It is quite fragile, but I do play well even without. Remember that it's useful only if played in the very first turns;
-Standstill: we do easily get board advantage, so standstill is what best fits; it works wonderful with vial, mandlands, strips and creatures abilities;
-Brainstorm: many shuffle effects make it a strong tool, helping us to get the best card in every moment, playing 4 copies of each;
-Enlightened Tutor: helps finding many stuff, mostly from sided-in cards. Not that necessary however;
-Swords to Plowshares: best white card ever after Balance [that I don't play for obvious reasons :)]. Effective against any kind of creatures, no matter if indestructible or not :P. Side them out against tps only [my worst matchup indeed, but u know..].

Some sideboard ideas:
-Chalice of the void is necessary against spoilers, and could be a desperate resource [set at 1] against some decks;
-Serenity, Seal of Cleansing in some number. A massive artifact removal, and a necessary tool [we don't play artifact hate md :/]. Not less than 3 & 3;
-Dust to dust: it's not the white Rack and ruin actually. Even if it does very well against welder, try to cast it under Tangle wire action :/ Too slow imo;
-Annul: a first-turn answer to Trinisphere, it is effective against oath too [as a must-counter, so we have more chances to resolve a StP or a meddling mage];
-Bounce effects [Chain of Vapor, Rushing river, Echoing truth]: always helpful, against oath or worldgorger, they still help to make the last attack with our critters, leaving the board free from blockers; they do work well with mage too [naming what you just bounced =)];
-In the eye of chaos: *strong*, but difficult to cast. It does not deal with our cards [paying 1W for StP is still cheap imo :)], but don't think a control will ever let you resolve this threat, even if this would mean leaving their hand empty. Finding a wishable answer to this [cunning+disenchant/naturalize/bounce] could cost up to 10 mana, not bad =);
-Blue elemental blast: an anti-aggro card. I think I would not play this build against a mostly sligh and zoo metagame, but it still takes out lavamancer, welder and Dragon^^;
-Maze of Ith: a nonmana-producing land, hope to see it only thru wayfarer. Strong against oath, colossus, tog, curiosity..beware of wastelands and Ice;
-Crucible of Worlds: we play strips and manlands, and it works so good with standstill. Would make a Sol ring MD interesting, but remember of Samurai too!;
-Parallax Wave: there is always some aggro deck out there, and a temporary Wrath of God is always helpful. Tutorable too.

Cards that did not fit:
-Savannah lions, Isamaru: vanilla drops, we need creatures that are strong mostly out of combat phase;
-Whipcorder: love them, but they need some Ramosian friends. No slots :/
-Land Tax engine: I do play TaxWeenie too, but if we want to play blue, we need it FAST, not after tax triggers and all;
-Empyrial armor: the card I miss more from Tax build, the biggest tool we have to kill fast. Obviosly it does not have much sense in this version;
-Abolish: strong against chalice of the void, we haven't got plains enough to feed it :/;
-Null rod: we play vial, so no slots for it. Could be tried in SB, but I think vial is strong [and funnier, but that's not strategy :P];
-Cursed totem: effective against tog and welder [and many sligh critters], it does freeze our game too;
-Rule of Law: SLOW. And tps feels not like saying "my dear, do as u want";
-Vengeful Dreams: with tax, much *better* than WoG. No tax, no redundant plains to discard, no dreams. Easy.
-Exalted angel: would love to play a couple, but they are difficult to cast, and to defend, even if one single attack could be enough imho :)
-Kami of ancient law, Monk realist: I don't see any enchantment threat, out of Oath, that would recomend me to play them MD [and I dont like to play creatures SB];
-True Believer: tps bounces it fast, and I don't fear duress [still have brainstorm, and I dont feel like losing a noncreature card is that bad in this deck :)];
-Army of Allah, Crusade: no slots, even if I miss a decent finisher that much. Walk in spoilered version is great, but u know..^^
-Orim's Chant, Abeyance: we are a bit more control than usual, but I think that these cards aren't in the spirit of the deck. Slow, and not quite effective. Go play Parfait if you want :)

Doing bad against tps, or ws-trinisphere fast starts? That's life! Remember you are still playing a 2/2-based deck, and u gotta know that creature based decks have got many limits :/ Try to leave your opponent breathless dropping that mage naming dark ritual in response to y-will, or naming one of the cards he has just revealed with metalworker! [yep, he does still reach to drop some cause it's a mana abilty, u know :)].

If you want to have fun without spending all your money in that set of bazaars, that's the deck to play imo. Creatures, removals, nice draw engine..and u can still say "hey, I do play weenie!".

[bebe]

We did actually rework the deck. Despite four Standstills, it seemed that Brainstorms were too good to pass up. Any deck running fetches and blue almost requires their insertion ... note we have more draw then your deck as we play it as a pure aggro control that really needs its draw ( as a bonus it feeds the Witnesses ).  

We also concluded that the Priests were overall as useful as the Angels as life gain was not an issue.

Now decks are meta dependent. We have a ton of MWS and Slaver played around here so Seals were brought into the main deck and they are rarely without use. We also looked at the Witness and found it was overall a better bet than the kamis as mentioned by a few people.

We still find that manlands are not an issue ... there are plenty of bears in the deck to take an opponent down.

Wayfarer was tested and really I don't find it strong enough to make the list. I know the Italians love him and I'm aware of his usefulness but I would rather have Seals or Brainstorms in his spot main deck.

I cannot agree on the Rules in the side though. It flat out beats combo when combined with Chalice/Mage and combo is the bane of aggro. You have put combo on a very fast clock where it needs to go off turn one or two. They were a welcome addition to the side.

4 icatian javeliners
4 meddling mage
4 samurai of the pale curtain
4 soltari priest
2 devout witness / kami

4 swords to plowshares
3 seal of cleansing

4 aether vial
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk

5 plains
2 tundra
2 island
4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire

sb:
3 chalice of the void
3 beb
3 rule of law
3 maze of ith
3 aura of silence

So we ended with this after a bit more testing. The moxen can be diamond and chrome and the time walk/ancestral can be removed for cards if converting to budget ( probably an extra Witness and a E. tutor ).

[Diego C]

i am happy to see that the decks are quite close - it means that I am not that fool =)

brainstorm usefulness is so clear...living for topdeck no more!

i think seals/disenchant MD are always helpful, so I think i am gonna search some slot for them.

i know the point is all in metagamizing, so i dont pretend to say "my-list-beats-all-other" ehehehehe =D

the only thing I am not agree with is the number of creatures: i never go off 20, even if in a spoilered version I played exactly 18 [walk is the best card u can ask from you deck imo].

Rule of law is slow for unsp deck [it's a miracle i own tundras!] IMO, and even gettin a turn or 2 isnt that good [even if it works so good with vial], so i try to get into other MU deeper. anyway, there is plenty of time to test

hope to get nice results from uWW

[Freelancer]

Oh the lovely WW once again viable...(never expected to post again in a WW thread EVER)

First off my list (it's different enough from the other list to warrant inclusion, and it has a lot of testing behind it):

Mana base:
11x plains
2x tundra
1x island
4x flooded strand
4x wasteland
1x strip mine

Creatures:
4x true believer
4x samurai of the pale curtain
4x kami of the ancient law
4x icatian javelineers
4x meddling mage
2x exalted angel

Spells:
3x aether vial
4x memory mask
4x swords to plowshares
2x seal of cleansing
2x orim's chant

the strange card choices:
memory mask Vs. standstill
Memory mask basicly says draw NOW and often waiting doesn't favor you if the player goes broken and you sit there looking like a moron with a nice 2/2 critter no good...while on the other hand mask let's you discard dead  cards (you have plenty) digs for land more critters/pressure, and as a upside if unanswered is very hard for control to well control while facing the numerous hate cards...^^
Orim's chant and seal
These are basicly open metagame slots with chant for combo and seal for oath/prison/it's raining men...
No moxen: (this built is unpowered)
I rather run a couple of chants in place off them because generally I don't really need the speed/card disadvantage against anything but combo, at wich chants do a excelend job to contain (they also occasionally help to buy another turn)...(if only there was a seal with the chant ability )

The rest is quite basic although i'm thinking about cutting a kami of ancient law and a true believer for another seal and another vial...although vial sucks big time in multiples it's so good to have one in your opening hand...

The things I tried: tombs/citys (you need lots of W where scrapt real fast), preachers generally to slow might warrant inclusion if you have moxen, more angels/more seals/landstill/man lands/several sideboard cards...(4 seals=to many most of the time, also mess with your other 2-drops, more angels=you see them to much, man-lands=to many wastes)



As a side note: role is very important in this deck...since in some matchups this deck is aggro (so much hate) but against 5/3 it's control....something to keep in mind...

[zergwrong]

http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=541

Read Match 5 vs. Leo Ping (white weenie) (it's Ding btw)

Well, that's my deck (my build, my cards, not my basic lands ), but my cousin played it.

Any one want a deck list?

BTW, it's bugdet...

Mmmm... ps, isn't bebe in ontario too?

PPs, WW have no, 0, chance against TPS. (lose to them everytime.)

[SneakAttack]

First off I am new to the Forums, But i have been reading though the forums for months now. I just never got around to becomming a member.
But onto the Topic of W.W.

In my opinion U/W is probly the most well rounded color base you can have. Meddling Mage is a must, That card is the main reason i would splash blue. That and the drawing.

When going through the previous pages, there was only 1 or 2 mentions of "Mother of Runes" I feel she is needed, this is just me, Especially against combo. Since Combo really only has 1 maybe 2 anwsers at most to like a played "True Believer" or Depending on the type of Combo "Samurai of the Pale Curtain" Having a "Mother of Runes" will possibly stop them in there tracks.

I have to say that the card "Preacher" is awesome. With the large ammount of giant bruisers running around it is a awesome tech card. I dont feel it is maindeck material though.

Most of these designs are very similar though and i wouldnt change much to any of them really. I do like the vial/standstill design. More then skullclamp.

Also i think a great card against combo, Like TPS,Belcher,
any real massive card drawing deck. "Mystic Remora" from iceage, them comboing out can give you the change to just draw up your library also and find a cure to your problem. And they can wait for you to not pay the upkeep but that gives you much more time to set up a lock.

But I really cant say anything else that other people havnt already said.
Maindecking at least 4 swords/4 seals i think is needed. That is my opinion and you dont need to take it.

[bebe]

PPs, WW have no, 0, chance against TPS. (lose to them everytime.)

A deck that does that does not sport FoW ccan lose to combo and often will. That is dependent though on which type of combo you are up against. Traditional TPS does not go off turn one but rather turn three or four.
You have ther opportunity to get a number of spells in place prior to it going off - Chalice, Mage and Rule of Law. Generally combo can bounce only one of these. So you have a chance albeit not the best of chances. You could specifically meta game the deck for this match up but then it would be quite weak in other ones.

I saw the deck you are referring to. It is more a ww scepter deck. Not that   I think it inferior but I'm not sure the choivces are best for today's meta. BTW,I went 2-2 at that tournament. I dropped out as I had a call from home.  

Bear in mind how screwy our meta is. Like the Italians, you just do not know what to expect. Slaver has won the last few tournaments here because it is an all-round good deck with very few bad match ups. If someone takes this deck to Ontario Vintage Championships, i think the results might be surprising as it is unexpected and Dragon is more common here than TPS. This has game against Dragon.















Lets be frank. An aggro control deck of this nature will never be tier one. It has surprised as number of metas though and it is quite conceivable that it could make the top eight in a heavy MWS/Slaver environment.

[zergwrong]

The Ontario Vintage Championships you say?   I will be there, look for me and let's see whose deck does better.  

I will work on my version and hopefully can fit 4 FoWs in there, but mine is quite different than yours, mine is more controlish (chant&stick).

And how come I can never find Dr4gons at those 401 tournies?  

We shall see...

[bebe]

I personally will not be playing ww at the Vintage Championships. This will be my third outing and so far I've done well enough coming in 6th last outing after ranking first after Swiss. So lets not compete but rather wish each other well. You can be sure I will play a rogue deck - so far I've  played Belcher ( prior to its notoriety ) and Mask. This time around I'm tempted to play my highlannder deck but I'm sure that Leon and friends will push me to play one of our new decks instead once again.  One thing I do know - my deck will have Burning Wish and Recoup main deck.

[Norm4eva]

Why should this deck poop out against TPS?  Granted the match should be bloody tough.... but you should not lose 100% of the time.

Meddling Mage - derr.
True Believer - see also derr.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - YawgWill?!  WTF?!!

Look, forget about your Isamaru/Savannah Lions.  They mean about as much to WW as Hyppies mean to Sui Black.  The competitive nature of decks that use the graveyard as a win - ANY deck using Welder, YawgWill, Dragon, Mindslaver etc - warrant the use of these cards in the maindeck.

[Diego C]

Lets be frank. An aggro control deck of this nature will never be tier one. It has surprised as number of metas though and it is quite conceivable that it could make the top eight in a heavy MWS/Slaver environment.

That's the point imo. Totally agree with bebe's thoughts, it's hard to pretend this deck to be *that* strong, it's only critters and some tools actually. I would not bring this one if I think I'm gonna face only tps, cause I know it's an hard matter, and building up a strong-hate sb is not a right choice imo: it would mean being weak against other MUs, without leaving you definitely sure to have nice results against combo.

This is not a deck that develops its own gameplan, it works around opponent's decisions, so the point it's all about metagamizing; think u gonna see only Dragons? Be happy, you've got all the chances to beat them, cause if they're not able to set up the combo by turn 2 or so, you will probably have dropped some strong lock [samurai dropped thru vial in resp to some animate effect is quite funny ehehe]. Remember that not everyone will imagine that you are bringing Weenie, and possibly nobody will think about the tech choices you've made

@Norm4eva: Samurai is strong, but it's not Planar Void exactly =) It does stop only Lotus and some fetch recursions thru Will, but tps does not play any other permanent threat. Believer is better [stops GiftsUngiven too], but I think samurai fits best in the deck.

[§Ertai§]

hi guys!
i'm a italian boy, excuse my english....
but
i'm playing WW this days
That's my deckslist:

13 Plains
1 Island

4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
3 Abolish
3 Empyrial Armor
3 Land Tax
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill

Sideboard

3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Orim's Chant
3 Serenity
3 Vengeful Dreams
2 Seal of Clanising

This list isn't mine, I've make some modifies;
Manabase in the greatest for this moment, with 1 island, for to use the standstill, a great lock card, in combo with aether vial
I'm not play true believer...it's too slow for tps ub, the deck vs that's strong...
bye
ertai

[Mouth for War]

Wow...    Just spent a half an hour typing a reply, only to have it lost in log in/ log out...  I'll try again...

4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest

3 Empyrial Armor

     Question for Bebe (and others that agree with him) on one or both of the following :



     Pro-color Creatures - I am absolutely in agreement with you guys on Savannah Lions being a waste due to being a "vanilla drop," but I can't agree on pro-critters...  With red's comeback (various Goblin builds, burn, including Fire/Ice and Slice and Dice), how can having pro-red critters be seen as a waste of a slot?  

     Empyrial Armor / Plate - You say this is a waste in today's game.....WHY?  A turn 3 Armor or equippage means a turn 5 kill, which, according to most of the threads I've read thus far is about the staple for Type I these days...Use it on a Soltari, and the only way they can stop you is to get rid of the Plate / Armor or to bounce / StoP it.

     Land Tax - Wow...  There's nothing I hate worse than drawing land past the first couple of turns.  This 1-drop thins your deck out fast, provides you with Hymn-bait vs. Sui, Super-sizes your Empyrial,  limits the effectiveness of Strip Mines and Sinkholes against you, and helps to make sure you don't get color-hosed for blue.  How can it be a poor choice?



     On other matters / theories :

     Icatian Javelineers - I love you guys...  I bought WAY too much Fallen Empires when it came out, and it's about time I get some use out of those dusty cards.  Goodbye, Goblin Welder, Goblin Lackey, etc....


     Samurai of the Pale Curtain - Thank you Wizards of the Coast for the Samurai !!!  I hate Dragon decks (view them as today's Channel-ball, only cheesier), and this card annihilates them, not to mention hosing Welder-based decks, and eliminating Yawgmoth's Wins...


     Abolish vs. Seal of Cleansing vs. Disenchant vs. Aura of Silence - Difficult decisions, probably based entirely on respective metagames...  
 - I have difficulty seeing running Abolishes without Land Tax (but have never tried).  Have you ever regretted the additional 1 CC to Abolish, or are you virtually always assured a Plains in hand?
 - I've been a proponent of Disenchant over Seal for quite some time, but realize that a Seal on the table can scare the heck out of some decks.
 - Aura...  With WW's lack of mana acceleration, do you find that you're able to cast this soon enough to make a difference?



     no Null Rod - Wow...  I realize that this deck's draw/play engine is Standstill / Vial, but don't Triskelion, Powder Keg, Masticore, and Mindslaver wreck this deck without the Rod?  Is it even possible to maindeck + side in enough artifact hate to make up for the loss of Null Rod?



     True Believer - Tired of Duress?  Tired of Diabolic Edict?  Tired of Mindslaver?  Tired of Tendrils of Agony?  Tired of Dragon effects?  I've loved this card ever since Onslaught first came out, and grabbed as many as I could get my greedy little hands on.  This is one of the cards that makes WW actually playable, and I can't imagine not having it in the build.


     Preacher - I fully recognize that the Preacher is fun to play with, but not being able to use him until 4th turn, his 3CC, and his vulnerability (1/1 without protection) make me leave him completely out of this deck.  By my 4th turn, i want to be laying the beat down with this deck, not waiting to see if my opponent actually has creatures...



     Kami of Ancient Law vs. Devout Witness vs. Whipcorder vs. a "new" idea? - The fact that Kami is a 2/2 with a 2CC is nice, as is its ability, but I wish it included artifact removal.  On the other side of the debate is the Witness, who can handle both artifacts and enchantments (repeatedly), but, due to its 3CC and it's activation cost, can't be reliably hoped for until 4th turn (quite possibly too late - almost assuredly so against Welder decks).  

     Others have brought up the Whipcorder, at least as an answer to fatties.  If you're more worried about creatures (including artifact creatures) as opposed to noncreature artifacts and enchantments, I'd suggest a different alternative from all of the above three choices...

     Has anybody considered / tried Avenger en-Dal?  He's from the Nemesis set, is a 1/1 for 1W, and his spellshaper ability is "T, 2W, discard a card from your hand : Remove target attacking creature from the game.  That creature's controller gains life equal to that creature's toughness."  I'd much rather StoP a creature (Avenger) than tap him (Whipcorder).



     Exalted Angel - I never gave serious consideration to including her in a WW build, for two reasons...

1)  Her CC is a bit higher than the norm for WW (3, then 4), and I'd rather play a turn three Empyrial Armor and swing for 8 or 9 than to cast a morphed creature (that everybody knows is the Exalted).
2)  She's a bit fragile compared to the other fatties in today's game (Akroma, Colossus, etc.).

     That said, I'm giving her a whirl...



     Orim's Chant - Is it just me, or is this card basically worthless in this type of deck without my next card to back it up...?


     Isochron Scepter - In a deck that is so worried about combo and/or enchantments/artifacts...  in a deck that doesn't run Null Rod...  in a deck that has so many potential low casting cost instants to abuse...  Why not?  You've got disenchant, you've got StoP, you've got Orim's Chant...  It's a low-CC virtually instant threat to any deck it comes across...  Why not (seriously...anybody test these that absolutely hated them)?



     Weathered Wayfarer - In the immortal words of Chet from Weird Science...  "GACK !!!   PHLBT!!!"

       What a total waste of a 1CC slot!!!   This card is JANK compared to Land Tax.  You get ONE land card as opposed to THREE with Tax, you have to spend mana (and tap the creature) to activate it, and it suffers the same "you have to have fewer lands than your opponent" requirement as Tax.  Sure, you can drop it to the Vial, but by the time you can use it (3rd turn if dropped via Vial), I'd rather be swinging away with an Armored / Plated fatty and thinning my deck out three times as fast.  Wayfarer is an exceptionally weak Man Tax.



     Chalice of the Void - Again...WOW.  I'd NEVER have thought to include Chalice in a WW build, for a couple of reasons...  

1)  White is typically the slowest color in Magic, and Chalice's double-CC seems completely out-of-place in a budget deck without SoLoMoxen/Crypt...
2)  It seems to me that you'd hose yourself, since most of your spells are 1CC and 2CC (yes, I know...AEther Vial).    What would you set it at?  There's no way you could get enough mana to attempt to stop Tendrils or Slaver, and Welder has alternate methods of "casting" things, too...

     Have you guys seriously liked this card in your builds?



     Karakas vs. Maze of Ith - Karakas has the added bonus of bouncing the creature, while Maze doesn't suffer from the Legendary rule.  If you were sure you'd be facing a lot of aggro (Oath/Stax), it might be worth it to at least have these in your board.  I have a hard time accepting not putting 5 in, due to most decks playing with 5 Strip effects.  There's not much sense including something (say, Karakas) if your opponent has that choice outgunned 5 to 1.



     Gilded Drake - Hmmm...  I suppose I can see it...marginally.  My favorite pasttime is NOT handing my opponents a 3/3 flying beatstick, though.  Sure, you can steal a Platinum Angel, but it'll almost assuredly be returned to the Stax player using the Welder...     I can see Akroma...a Colossus...   I guess it's a metagame choice, really...but when most of my creatures don't have flying...



     Any comments?  Thoughts on the Avenger?  Please let me know, as I've been wanting to guide WW back into Type I (still can't get used to calling it Vintage) for some time now...

[Bastian]

Any comments? Thoughts on the Avenger? Please let me know, as I've been wanting to guide WW back into Type I (still can't get used to calling it Vintage) for some time now...

Been there, done that. Don't mean to spoil your fantasy, but WW in type 1 is quite dead. It already was some years ago (hey guys, remember White_Knight from Beyond Dominia...? hint hint: IT WAS ME!!) So I've been pretty much over it.

You could however surprise one or another opponent and win a match... but the deck seems hardly viable.

I'd use Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Javalineers vs Goblin Welder, Devout Witness, Dust to Dust, Wastelands, Strip and DEFINITLY look out to abuse Skullclamp. It's banned in every format for some reason...

[Diego C]

@mfw: I played the TaxWeenie for a while, and I moved to the list I posted before.

I will answer u on every point

Pro-color Creatures
I do play Soltari [the finisher, and protection is exta bonus]. I loved Knights in aggro environment, but it's that vanilla against combo. Meddling mage fits better, and we cannot play 30 critters, u know.

Empyrial Armor / Plate
there are many ways to get rid of it. the first is to win before [and believe me, combo has got many chances, and so does tog, cause it has not to win counterwars against weenie]. Remember that you've got to cast a cc3 spell under ws.dec prison [wire, smokestack, chalice..]. I've never felt that "easy" against that "mud".
Being fast is cool, but we aren't that fast actually, so imo the point is to get some lock on the board, and not to beat with a fattie on turn 3 [cool against goblin ]. It's the thing I miss more from Tax build anyway.

Land Tax
If i play blue, i need it FAST. it means duals and fetchlands. So tax won't fit anymore [and believe me, fetching for land every turn is SO boring, I made it for months :/]. I do play wastelands and manlands, so when I draw land I am [quite] always happy.

no Null Rod?
i do play chalice against spoilers [even cheaper to cast ^^]. rod is the best denial card in type1 possibly, but we can't stop our vials. they are our chance under trinisphere, they make bounce effects on mages quite useless, they hose control and oath [the gilded trick does always work ].
I would play fish U/x if I was meant to attack opponent's mana base strongly. But I love weenies, so no way =)


True Believer - Tired of Duress? Tired of Diabolic Edict? Tired of Mindslaver? Tired of Tendrils of Agony? Tired of Dragon effects?
-duress: havent got that many spells [and could always hide them thru brainstorm, wow I feel that pro ];
-edict: haven't got to face many edicts here, anyway it's not a prob imo, there are plenty of removals I fear more [explosives, keg..];
-slaver: wouldn't it be funny to let someone else play our cool deck? lol, it's a problem, but I think we can face it with mages and sb hate. difficult matchup, haven't got much faith in my critters;
-dragons: no prob actually. samurai, witness, mage, stp, strip-effects, seal of cleansing..if he doesnt set up the combo by turn 2 or so we've got all the chances to win. anyway beliver would be an extra tool.
-tendrils: uhm..it doesn't lose from extract or stifle, neither it does from believer! it stops gifts ungiven, but the tendrils player has got all the time to search for a bounce, use it, and start the storm count. u can win a game out of 10 [personal experience], but believer doesnt solve our problem.

Kami of Ancient Law vs. Devout Witness vs. Whipcorder vs. a "new" idea?

if only the kami would have been a couple of words longer.."target enchantment or artifact" [well actually in the reverse order ]. I see it useful against oath only, and don't even that much. Whipcorder is better, but the bolas guys would like to let the ramosian fellas join..

Anyway keep in mind that there is always a cc2-drop free for metagamizing. it could be soltari, or knight, or corder, or believer

the spellshaper guy is cool, but a bit overcosted imo :/

Isochron Scepter
SLOW. haven't got all that mana, even if abeyance or disenchant on this tool would be awesome. imo, just a way to waste a card [or 2 actually] and a turn. if you've got 4 open mana sources to cast and use, you are not playing type1

Weathered Wayfarer
the point is: is it better to fetch 3 plains or to get a strip mine? think about using it under standstill, searching for a manland, or vs oath/fattie.dec, getting that maze of ith u run in monocopy =)
it's mana intensive I know..not everybody plays it, so i understand if you disagree with me Remember that I was a TaxGuy too [and I still am with friends eheheheh].

Chalice of the Void
ever thought to cast it for ZERO? it could be useful against storm.dec if played with 1 counter [bye rituals], but it's difficult to get.

Karakas vs. Maze of Ith
run one of each SB and fetch them thru wayfarer kidding, anyway they are interesting tools. they've both got the nasty ability to fill you opening hand, usually forcing u to take a mulligan :/

Gilded Drake
i love this critter =) obviously, i dont trade it for a jackal pup, i prefer akroma or welder better
it's a metachoice, it's not the base of the deck however.

That's all. Hope I haven't forgotten anything

Bye,

Diego

[Mouth for War]

Diego :

     Many thanks for a very thorough response.  Iowa sucks for top Type I tournament play (closest usually being Chicago (CrazyCon !!!)), so I don't get to see the intricacies of the decks like you guys do.  

-tendrils: uhm..it doesn't lose from extract or stifle, neither it does from believer! it stops gifts ungiven, but the tendrils player has got all the time to search for a bounce, use it, and start the storm count. u can win a game out of 10 [personal experience], but believer doesnt solve our problem.

     Speaking of which, there's an example...  Haven't seen a whole helluva lot of Tendrils decks around here, so wasn't fully aware of the bounce.  I've seen it played a couple of times in Chicago (and seen the opponent sit there and wait...and wait...and wait), but that's about it.

the spellshaper guy is cool, but a bit overcosted imo :/

     Yep, on second thought, I'm not really happy with his activation cost, he doesn't do anything vs. Dragon or Welder, and he's too prone to burn/removal...  There's gotta be more good weenies out there somewhere for this deck...

Weathered Wayfarer
the point is: is it better to fetch 3 plains or to get a strip mine? think about using it under standstill, searching for a manland, or vs oath/fattie.dec, getting that maze of ith u run in monocopy =)
it's mana intensive I know..not everybody plays it, so i understand if you disagree with me  Remember that I was a TaxGuy too [and I still am with friends eheheheh].

     True...  I've had pretty poor luck at the few tournies I've attended with non-basic lands (all of a sudden a guy is thrown into an arena where everybody is running 5 Strips...).  This one all boils down to the Empyrial junk...  If I could just wean myself away from it, I'm sure I'd see the light.

Chalice of the Void
ever thought to cast it for ZERO?  it could be useful against storm.dec if played with 1 counter [bye rituals], but it's difficult to get.

     Agreed, but that goes back to my original point about Chalice - with white being as slow as it is, you're only liable to be able to use it for 0 or 1, since anything else is out of white's reach mana-wise, or would hose your own deck (2CC) worse than almost any others'.     Would you try to mulligan until you got a Chalice?



     Thanks again for such a detailed response, Diego.  You guys'll probably have to set me straight for awhile yet, until I can actually get a few more tournies under my belt (hell, who am I kidding, probably even after that!!!). :lol:




Bastion :

Been there, done that. Don't mean to spoil your fantasy, but WW in type 1 is quite dead. It already was some years ago (hey guys, remember White_Knight from Beyond Dominia...? hint hint: IT WAS ME!!) So I've been pretty much over it.

     But that's the whole point of this thread, Bastion...  It's a re-evaluation of a deck archetype based on new cards put out since it was last "viable" in an attempt to see if it can hang.  As Bebe pointed out in the thread-opener, the deck has a lot of potential maindeck hate for the current environment, and the sideboard can encompass further matchup breakers.

     The point isn't necessarily to say, "Hey, look, White Weenie is the best deck to play now," but to say, "Can we bring the archetype back and give it an actual shot to place?"

[Mouth for War]

Hmmm...  Not really sure how I managed the double post...  my apologies...

[bonblaireau]

have you tested umezuma's jitte?

"Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage, put two charge counters on Umezawa's Jitte. Remove a charge counter from Umezawa's Jitte: Choose one - Equipped creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn; or target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn; or you gain 2 life. Equip 2 "

It's slow but have a very powerful effect.

[Diego C]

Let's write down something about weenie again

As trinisphere leaved us, there is more chance to actually play a game, without doing 3 "land-pass" every match.

My list now is:

4 flooded
1 windswept
5 plains
1 island
2 tundra
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
2 metaslots [kor haven, karakas, maze of ith, boseiju..]

Same stuff as usual. Kicked the 2 boost, never found them useful. A critter on turn 1 is good, but it could be easily FoWwed up leaving our hand empty :/

4 javelineers
3 wayfarer
4 mage
4 samurai
3 kami of ancient law
3 true believer
2 ninja of the deep hours

Some new stuff: no need to face red based decks here in italy [and sideboard help us with this matter], so our heroish soldiers and priest left da team. Believer is nice to be vialed instant against a Gift or a Duress, or even a storm spell ^^
Kami is good vs Oath and W-gorger; still a grizzly, still beating.
Gilded drake was like a win-more against Oath: never had problems. I am trying the ninjas atm, they are broken against control. Incounterable and quite impossible to get rid of with Enginereed Explosives [our worst threat :/].
Mages, Javelineers and Samurais are the soul of the deck. I do love wayfarer, but I understand it's a completely personal choice [on the other hand mage is not, if you want to be competitive ^^].

4 vial
4 CotV
3 StP
1 Rushing River
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill

Vial is the engine, starting the game with both it and chalice is insane. We dont play rod, so we need to stop artifact booster. Then we could fill the board with mages and believers, beating strong against combo/control. I know having more copies of this spells is redundant, but it's the price to pay for budget decks.
CotV: to be set blind at 0.

3 stp? u could take me for fool, but river is still a removal against oath/colossus/titan, and could help us against opponent's CotVs. Kickering it is synergical with wayfarer too =)

Brainstorm: the right critter at the right time. And the nicest way to throw away useless vials by fetching after.
Standstill: nice way to fill our hand. With Ninja, simply HUGE.

My SB at the moment:

2 phyrexian furnace [tog, dragon, welder, slavery - worst than tormod's but works with chalice]
2 absolute law [something against goblin, sligh..always useful]
2 sword of f/i [like above]
1 enlightened tutor [i am trying this configuration: siding in the 2 cards i need plus the tutor, so i've virtually got 3 copies of each card, saving some sb slots].
1 seal of cleansing [tutorable]
2 disenchant [we do play white right?]
3 rootwater thief [t1 is the format of restriced cards - nice way to take out tendril, colossus, atog, yagwin, titan, blessing..]
1 true believer [filling MD 4x set]
1 kami of ancient law [^^]

Why I do play creatures in SB? cause I dont want to be in creature-screw! And vial helps to make our threats BIG.

And now, waiting for Kataki to be legal in Vintage, so we can play another fantastic critter!

[Freelancer]

Dude if you want to get some info/feedback on a ww build don't post in a month's old thread but create your own.

Some things I noticed in your build:
1) No null rod -bad things happen without this on the table-
2) COTV is only good at 0 (you have to many 1-drops) and is often a dead card, same with vial
3) Lots of WW and U for 2 tundra's and vial to handle

[Jacob Orlove]

This thread is waaay too old to be relevant. Start a new one. Closed.