TheManaDrain.com
October 24, 2025, 04:02:03 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: [Deck's Discussion] - Chalice-Keeper - January's 2005 Update  (Read 3811 times)
MaxxMatt
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 482


King Of Metaphors


View Profile WWW Email
« on: January 17, 2005, 09:17:09 pm »

Hi all,
I'm here to show a little piece of work of myself, done with the goal of revamping a multicoloured control deck that can abuse of Chalices of the Void.

The deck has a lot of issues that I'm sure that would be discussed here.

Why Would You Play this Decks

Almost any control deck used now that is performing better than the others are strongly dependent and connected to one or two single cards.
While all those cards usually produce huge effects when connected with other cards, they cannot somehow and sometimes be "unpleasantly" capitalized as "a stand alone".


***Oath.dec abuse of Orchard and Oath and of course both of them would result as strong as anyone would paint them to you, but they aren't stellar at if considered not coupled to each other.

***C-Slavery always abuses of Welders, TFKs and all the artifacts in their grave, but the entire deck without one of the two elements would result really vulnerable especially if you carefully weight what to do in order to stop him from winning.
 
***Sadly, Atog itself has an extremely more solid nature if compared to the first two decks because it has inherently powerful tools to abuse of that are perfectly synergic and good-by-themselves. On the other hand the race through his wictory could be filled of mirror matches. Anyone know well how draw-dependent are they, especially if both the players are top level players.

While assembling this deck another time, after an entire year of non-use, the goals that I would like to achieve have been abusing of  cards:

- Non Luck related
- Skill Intensive
- Universally usable
- Pure Control Elements
- Not connected to "1x1-Actions" towards the opponent's ones

Also, I would like to rearrange the deck to be able to stop the usual fast opponent's rush  and stretch the entire game as much as I want, in order to be able to win in the mid-game without abusing of Intuitions, AKs, Oaths, Tendrils, Welders or Bazaars. I'm not hating them for some stupid reasons. I would agree on using them ANYTIME I would be pleased to play any deck that is currently involving them. On the other hand, not too much can be done in those directions, because the decks that are abusing of them are far stronger and well established than any other version merely thinkable and playable at now.

So I decided to go into another direction.



What I Have Done To Accomplish Those Goals

The project seemed interesting to me as soon as I restarted working on it.
Simple too, at least on chart.

The difficulties started coming out as soon as I thought a bit about which cards should be played AT NOW.
I extensively played Chalice-Keeper ( similar to the Zherbus' Version ) during the "Long.dec's Era" with extremely good results. I almost won any game a single Chalice resolve because I usually know when/how/why play it at the right casting cost. Born to compete with Combo, the deck performed well against Artifact.decs and Control.decs too. In the past, knowing the winning plan of the opponent would have been crucial to defeat him with the deck. Without those knowledge the deck usually would be able to win nothing.
When skills and far-sighted plays were needed in order to win, I usually feel excited and thrilled about playing MtG. I felt that I was going to abuse of my Foil Chalices again.


I started from my well know  structure of a typical 4C-C build with Chalices, but with the proposal of minimizing the bad synergies that in the past cost me some game loss.

I can summarize them into some large categories.


***Unstable Manabase.

I played  Fetchlands but no basic lands. In the past I have only to fear locks' components as Smokestacks, LittleSpheres, opponent's Chalices and Wires, but at now, I have to fear Trinispheres and Crucibles too. The need of playing with as much basics as I can, forced me to work to the deck with the predisposition of cutting redundant off colour spells and powering-up the number and the efficiency of the blue-based ones.


***Frequent inability of dealing with my own Chalices, forcing me to waste too much resources to get rid of them

I can usually put CotVs in play at any cost lower than 2 without too much difficulties, but there are some gaming situations during which you need to munch at your own chalices to use the cards you drew until now. In the past, a single CotV for 1 without the almighty Gorilla in play, usually was going to block some of your Removals, Drawers and Restricted from being played. Relying on Cunning Wishes to get rid of them via Disenchants or Rack and Ruin couldn't always be considered a safe path to follow.


***Different colours were responsible of equally important aspect of my game plan.

"Black" for tutoring things and drawing cards,
"Red" for being able to remove things and counter things
"White" almost for being able to remove things and produce winners
Those "aspects" of my deck's colours composition would not reward the entire decks consistency and sometimes I felt lacking too  much of  "Being Blue-Based".

***I found the use of many cards in the deck to be too much situational and related on the well or bad timing on drawing them.

Having different "2of" and "1of" bring the deck to be more versatile but extremely more defocused on achieving his winning plan.
Drawing removals when I was under the sphere of influence and protection of my own CotV was usually useless.
Drawing spells that I was not able to use because I was not able to get rid of CotV WHEN NEEDED was useless.
Drawing Impulses instead of Brainstorm ( or otherwise of course ) was usually deadly.






I started looking at the things that I would like to see into the deck and that I could not considered eliminable from my list.

I need the un-official-keeper counterbase to at least try to survive to my opponent

(8)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

I need Chalices because it was my proposal to abuse of them and Crucibles of the Worlds because they are game breaking as none else in a multicoloured deck. I choose Crucibles because they are both a mana stabilizer and a grave-recurring-engine. I have to do both of them as soon as I can in the early game so I rise a bit the number of those spells.

(5)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of the Worlds

I usually play with some restricted spells and I feel of needing at least of those ones.

(9)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth?s Will
1 Time Walk
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
1 Darskteel Colossus

I added the last one because of  Tinker and because of Chalices and because of his inherent capability of winning games faster than any other creatures. It is able to partially protect himself from being killed so it is good.

At now the project involved choosing two things. Drawers and Removals that could be as much synergic as they can with the rest of the deck. I need another way ( excluding Tinker ) to get rid of my own Chalices when needed and without any impediments. I soon thought about Engineered Explosives because of their capability of killing things at various casting costs while being able to be resolved as long as I had colorless mana. Keeper has usually a lot of coluorless mana thanks to the high number of Wastelands and colourless artifact mana, so they seemed to me the proper insertion. I need a way to abuse of my own sideboards? cards even during game 1 and to be able to check for anything I need into my "tool-box-sideboard". Cunning Wishes were the cards of choices.

(4)
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish

At now the deck had at least 12-14 artifact onto it and an hungry need of drawing cards as soon as they can.

I tried to swap out Skeletals for a moment in order to focalize my real needs. I need blue drawers that draw me cards fast and that can be abused with all those artifacts. I opted to play Thirst for Knowledge because I knew that they would have been good in conjunction with so much artifacts and especially with Deep Analysis. I was in trouble when I was going to choose which "mana fixer" should have been used. Brainstorm were risky because of the high rate on me playing with a CotV for 1 in play but on the other hand, they would have been perfect in conjunction with Fetchlands and I was not going to play CotVs ANY matches. The decision were made.

(9)
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
2 Deep Analysis

The mana base should have been both solid and extremely accelerated. I should have been able to play with at leat three or four mana during my first two turns to be sure of playing almost any spell in my deck. I need a lesser amount of coloured mana sources and this let me to dispose of more basic lands. The use of a couple of CoWs ( and a Tinker able to fetch it as if it was the third ) assured me a good recursion of my own Wastelands,  my own Fetchlands and my own Duals.

I rearranged the mana base in this way:

(25)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt



They completed the skeleton of my maindeck; I was proud of the whole work and the new global equilibrium of the deck.
I ended playing a deck that had:
- an higher amount of blue cards,
- a lesser need of cunning wishing into answers,
- a more focused use of his resources
- no need of specific cards to build his advantage
- an overall generic and global synergy
- a slow path to victory that had strong control elements till the early game
- a good winning condition and Y. Will ad backup plan
- a draw control plan that let you stretch the game as much as it could and that can subsequently let you abuse of your draw engine in a better way and it is using a new path on dealing with opponent?s permanents.

It let you dispose of a lot of  crucial things to do during turn 1 or 2 without obliging you to follow a precise path through the eventual victory.
I need all my skills on playing this deck and I literally feel "my balls cupped and stretched" by my own decisions any turns more than before. It is as much thrilling as much interesting understanding "how far" you can go while teasing your opponent's deck with your own powerful tools.



Here is the entire list with the sideboard that I?m using now for my metagame consisting of Togs, TPSs, Welder.dec, Dragons and Fishes.


(25) - Mana Producing Things
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

(8) - Tinker Targets
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of the World
3 Chalice of the Void

(5) - Search & Browse Through Your Whole Deck
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

(3) - Broken Things Happens
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance
1 Time Walk

(8) - A little of Counterspells
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

(11) - My Official Drawers
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
2 Deep Analysis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

(15) - Attempt of Sideboard
(10) - Wishable Targets
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Fire/Ice
2 Rack & Ruin
1 Echoing Truth
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Diabolic Edict
(5) - Non Wishable Targets
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spawning Pit/ Seal of Cleansil
1 Chalice of the Void





Enjoy!
MaxxMatt
Logged

Team Unglued - Crazy Cows of Magic since '97
--------------------
Se io do una moneta a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha una moneta
Se io do un'idea a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha due idee
The M.E.T.H.O.D
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 474



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2005, 03:53:11 pm »

im not sure if chalice works or not, because I haven't really tried it.  But I do remember chalice making isochron scepter pretty good in some decks.  Because chalice for 0 can actually give you an oppurtunity to cast isochron scepter without the huge tempo penalty, and still reap the benifits.
Logged

Team Meandeck: classy old folks that meet up at the VFW on leap year
Dozer
Shipmaster
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 610


Am I back?

102481564 dozerphone@googlemail.com DozerTMD
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2005, 12:34:25 am »

This sure looks interesting, and given the metagame you describe should work just fine. However, I wonder how often you find yourself a mana or two short of actually casting the more expensive stuff, in particular Deep Analysis and how often you are in color trouble? 25 sourcen overall and 14 permanent Blue sources does not seem to be overly many.
With Chalice at times shutting out some of your draw spells, why is there no LoA maindeck? As far as card drawing goes, this works under a Chalice just fine and enables you to use cards you are stuck with for at least one purpose: Keeping at 7. If you lock some of your cards with Chalice, for whatever reason, LoA seems perfect to take at least some advantage of that.
Final question: How often do you do Chalice 0?

Dozer
Logged

a swashbuckling ninja

Member of Team CAB, dozercat on MTGO
MTG.com coverage reporter (Euro GPs) -- on hiatus, thanks to uni
Associate Editor of www.planetmtg
MaxxMatt
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 482


King Of Metaphors


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2005, 06:43:19 am »

@Dozer.

Relying on a "nearly MonoU" maindeck's configuration, I'm really loving the amount of mana available. 25 lands, with less ( Wastable ) duals, more fetchlands and some basic lands, are enough to let me play nearly anyone of the games in this way:

1) Play Basics and some Artifact mana accelerations and/or Chalices and/or cheap Brainstorms.
2) Play some better drawers during Opponent's EoT
3) Develop the mana base according on how many non blue spells you have in your hand.

The Pros of this configurations are
-the capability of fetching nearly undisturbed two or three islands to setup a solid mana base
-the need of non basic lands often ONLY during mid.game spells or end-game spells.


I revealed to my teammates a different list from the one proposed that had this configuration.

Maindeck
+1 LoA
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Mindtwist ( 61° Card )
-1 Mana Crypt
-1 Deep Analysis
Sideboard
+1 StP
-1 Skeletal Scrying

I made the changes that you read in my previous post because I found that you can get yourself clunked too often by the high number of 1cc spells and you need some other spells to feed your draw engine to let you continually "surf" through the deck. The sinergy between TFKs and Deeps is awesome and i choose to substitutes the LoA with the Crypt because of the need of another way to get rid of my own chalices when needed ( thanks to the colorless mana that the Crypt provides ) AND to let me hardcast Deeps, Tinkers and CoWs more often and faster than before.

I tried to leave the LoA in AND to cut the Wasteland #3, but I found that while I didn't have so often an high amount of cards, I would prefer destroying the opponent's mana base ( coupling this effect with the Chalices' one) rather than hoping to be able to draw one or two cards thanks to LoA.

A lot of decks ( especially MW.decs and some combo.dec ) have their own plan completely negated by a quick CotV for zero and a fast Wasteland on their own land ESPECIALLY if you can use a counter to stop their own first ( and maybe only ) playable threat.

Quote from: Dozer

...If you lock some of your cards with Chalice, for whatever reason, LoA seems perfect to take at least some advantage of that...


Even if in theory this argument seems true, playing this deck I realized that:
-Playing cotv for 1 and/or 0 stop few of your own cards BUT
-Your draw engine isn't stopped at all SO you continuosly deprive your hand of cards using TFKs.
-Opponent's Duresses or Mindtwist, if not stopped by your own chalice, are the best way to force you under 7 cards
-Chalices take care of future threats, while all the other cards in your hand would be used in order to survive to the ones resolved BEFORE the cotv hit the board. Usually isn't possible to both accumulate cards in hand AND take care of opponent's threats Sad


LoA is a great addition if only my metagame would have not been caractherized by so many Fishes and Wasteland.dec. They can work around your non basic lands even when you own CoW is in play. While you are trying to reach 7 cards in hand, they can force you to consistently remain clunked at 5 or 6 cards.


Of course, all these arguments stop to be of some utility if you would add LoA as the 61° card of the maindeck. Smile
I'm sure that it would be the better choice to do if you would insist on playing LoA, but my project on building this deck is based on minimizing the bad topdecks. Another card and  (ANOTHER non fetchable ) land isn't needed imho, especially because it is a non coloured one. So I opted to force me playing with 60 cards instead of my usual 60 ones. If seems to funtion really well especially because I dropped a mana fonts from the total of mana available.







Going first, I usually play CotV for 0 against Ubr-Tog, Slavery, Oath and any other MW.dec, because I realized how good is gaining Tempo depriving them of their own acceleration. Going second, they usually were set at 1 but are usually a bit supar. My plan is to swap them out for other goodies from my sideboard.
While it may seems counter intuitive, ( if possible ) I usually don't play a CotV for 0 agaisnt any one of the common Storm.decs. Playing it for zero would let them play undisturbed all their own Dark Rituals and Duresses. They could play their own zero cc spells without any other porpouse than forcing them countered because of my own cotv but keep rising the Storm count as well. So I would prefer to set up a cotv for 1 maybe a turn later instead of playing a "blind" ( and stupid ) cotv for zero. I'll play it for zero ONLY if I have more than one chalices and I can be able to resolve both of them soon. I'm also conscious about their own good ability of bouncing my cotvs back, so the primarily porpouse of a cotv is to gain two or three turns in order to better setup my own defences.



On the other hand, I found CotV for 1 to be the perfect cc to setup a strong match against TPS and even against Tog isn't bad stealing their ReBs, Duresses, Brainstorms and Berserks. The Cons of this project is that usually they would work around your own chalices thanks to their own E.Es. and their wished higher cc artifacts' removals. IMHO, the tempo gained using a cotv is always golden against them, because it let you capitalize in a better way you draw engine and your ( few ) counterspells



I recently extensively tested in Solo Plays and againt real opponents to support my thesis, and I find that I usually have at least 3 or 4 mana on my second turn. Basic lands are usually untouched ( excluding Strip+CoW that is a lucky and unpredictable situation ) for long time and your own artifact mana is enough to let you play a fast TFK or a third turn opponent's Eot TFK AND Drain or FoW backup.

I would recommend you the use of Crypt and all the other artifact mana accelerations. They would provide you fast CoWs, Deeps, Tinkers, TFKs, Wishes and some good combinations of 2cc spells ( such as both Demonic and Walk during your own second turn letting you to untap and explode with another bomb in you Time Walk's turn Smile)

While relying on duals, less basics and more non-blu spells FORCED you ( and me of course ) to build up a janky, self damaging and less solid mana base ( because you NEED to topdeck lands after lands not to lose to stupid CoW+Waste recursion ), the presence of basics and more fetchlands let you keep the total amount of lands a bit lower and explode yourself with all the good accelerations that we have at our disposal, without being penalized by the opponen'ts denial strategy.


At now, I'm toying only about the insertion of my old Mindtwist into the maindeck or in the side in some place.
I don't know where or how I could be able to fit it in but it should be my only next change to the deck, because, while I found that CotVs can gain me the needed tempo to face better my own opponents, Mindtwist can seal you games with or without Cotvs in play.



@TheMethod
 
I tried to translate a bit your words and I don't know if I have understood well what you have said.

Basically you are suggesting me to play Scepters instead of some other drawers ( maybe some Deeps or some TFK ) and apply this game plan:

Turn 1: Drop all my acceleration available, play a Scepter imprinting something and play a cotv for zero to stop the opponent in his own mana development.
Turn 2: While your opponent is clunked at one land, you can get a "free" scepter's activation and then you can start palying "defending" you own scepter.
Turn 3: Opponent is forced to play at least one removal every turn to stop you from gaining the obvious advantage anyone of the scepters' activations.


IMHO, it seems a strong way to conduct the match but I don't know how well the interactions between the cards could be programmed. You should lose some 3cc and 4cc spells in order to maximize the Scepters and maybe you should add F/Is and Impulses and the full set of Brainstorms.

While these are the pros of playing with a Scepter-based configuration, I feel realyl bad when facing decks that had up to 6 artifact removals or too many ways to get rid of them. Even if I get some "free" activations, I felt bad "depriving me" of two cards because of 1 of his removals.

I thought about adding some Scepters could be used in my side to power-up the control mirror, when usually noone board in artifact's removals. Maindecking Scepters seemed as good as risky to me, especially because some of the most interesting cc I would setup the chalices were 1 and 2 ( if possible ) and the imprinted spells are always 1cc and 2cc spells Sad.
Logged

Team Unglued - Crazy Cows of Magic since '97
--------------------
Se io do una moneta a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha una moneta
Se io do un'idea a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha due idee
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.049 seconds with 19 queries.