Should the Star City Game series be ten proxy?

[Cross]

I, like many other people, was very happy to see that Star City Games will be holding a series of tournaments. Having just returned from Waterbury, and even though I went 2-3 drop, I was very excited about playing more magic, and attending large-scale tournaments. I also appreciate the work of star city games in their dedication to the game by improving it via their vintage series.

However, I was very dismayed to see that the star city games’ series is only five proxy. I found this to be a very strange choice, for it’s generally accepted that tournaments nowadays are ten proxy. There are multiple reasons as to why ten proxy makes so much more sense than five proxy. I own a piece of power, and a large amount of the type 1 staple cards, and I still cannot five proxy ninety percent of the viable decks in the format. I would like to see the proxy count raised to ten, rather than dusting of fish.

With the acceptance of the ten proxy rule the vintage community seems to have flourished over the past year, as many of the big names in magic have stated in numerous articles on the topic. I am worried that with tournaments like these, it really becomes a tournament for the haves; while the have-nots are set to fight it out after the first few rounds at the bottom tables.

If anything Star City Games has more to gain by offering up ten proxies, as more people will be able to play viable decks, and consider attending the tournament. For this reason, financially ten proxy makes way more sense than five proxy. Also, the results of a five proxy series may not be a correct assessment of the current vintage meta-game, because it is affected by a much smaller amount of players.

I believe that that the Series should be changed to ten proxy, and the drain community should push for this change.

I would like to add that I am not trying to dictate what SCG decides, but I think that ten proxy is just a more reasonable format.

[Jacob Orlove]

Except five proxies is faaaar more reasonable when you consider that they're also in the business of selling cards.

[Kasuras]

Except five proxies is faaaar more reasonable when you consider that they're also in the business of selling cards.

Yeah, but do you think that they make that much money out of selling power cards to not make it proxy10? Since, let's be honest, the power cards are proxied the most of all.

Pople who own 4 power parts usually have the money to get all 9, and thus the contrast is still too great in my opinion.

[FORCE-OF-WILL]

Except five proxies is faaaar more reasonable when you consider that they're also in the business of selling cards.

Yeah, but do you think that they make that much money out of selling power cards to not make it proxy10? Since, let's be honest, the power cards are proxied the most of all.

Pople who own 4 power parts usually have the money to get all 9, and thus the contrast is still too great in my opinion.

Yes, I'm fairly sure they do make more money running 5-proxy and selling some power than running 10-proxy and selling none.
Star City is in this business for two reasons; to make money, and to promote a hobby that makes them money. Dont get me wrong, I love SCG. They have done a LOT for this game and will (I'm willing to bet) continue to do more in the future. I repeat, I like SCG. But Pete has a business to run, and if I were him I'd like to think I'd be able to run it as well as they are.

The fact that they host events where the basic prize cost by EBAY standards is $3400 PLUS other stuff (juge pay, event site, etc), they allow you to play with 5 proxies and charge less than $30 is a good deal.

At least it seems like a good one to me.

[Kasuras]

Yes, I'm fairly sure they do make more money running 5-proxy and selling some power than running 10-proxy and selling none.

But do you think that the difference between selling the amounts of power if you do 10proxy isn't really big enough to justify not doing it, could be wrong though but I don't think t1 is SCG's major income.

And even if there is a big difference in selling their power if they change to 10proxy, the 10proxy would probably attract more people and they would make more money that way. Right?

Of course, I respect their shop too but 10proxy versus 5proxy is a huge difference that is worth discussing.

[FORCE-OF-WILL]

Im not sure how much power they sell at one of these events...but even a piece or two would negate a good portion of the cost to run the event.
Its nothing against any of you, but I dont think MOST players are aware of how MUCH its costs to run large events...

I agree tht 10 proxy would be a much better enviroment to play in. There is no dobt about it.

[Moxlotus]

I'm actually surprised as to why they don't give 5 proxies + more at $1/piece.  Maybe put a maximum of 10 also.  Seems like they would make some $ that way too.  I mean people aren't going to proxy cheap cards when they cost $1 extra-that's why I think they would do this over 10 free.

I don't think that it would infringe on selling cards either.  I mean how many people that need 6 pieces of power for a deck and get 5 free are going to buy that last piece?  I think SCG could at least make a dollar and let the person proxy the last piece.

[Mixing Mike]

Hell, you should be happy they're holding them in the first place!

[jpmeyer]

I'm actually surprised as to why they don't give 5 proxies + more at $1/piece.  Maybe put a maximum of 10 also.  Seems like they would make some $ that way too.  I mean people aren't going to proxy cheap cards when they cost $1 extra-that's why I think they would do this over 10 free.

I don't think that it would infringe on selling cards either.  I mean how many people that need 6 pieces of power for a deck and get 5 free are going to buy that last piece?  I think SCG could at least make a dollar and let the person proxy the last piece.

It's a huge amount of effort.  You would need to deckcheck everybody beforehand.

[Godder]

If SCG had difficulty having power or neo-power on hand, I could see them allowing 10 proxies, but since they have a great inventory, it's in their interests to make people buy as much as possible, naturally. It's not just power, either, it's also the expensive staples like Mana Drains, MWS and so forth. Any sales of that sort of card that 5 proxies makes happen, that 10 would not, is an excellent justification for 5 over 10.


For player-organised tournaments (e.g. Waterbury), participation is the only source of revenue, so 10 or even 15 proxies makes a lot of sense, but for SCG, it's also about maximising card sales.

[nataz]

I honestly don’t see the extra 5 proxies making a huge dent in SCG profit margin. I'm also pretty sure they are not running these events expecting to get rich off them. In truth, if I were they, I would be happy breaking even (including time/effort spent) with just the possibility of doing better with the help of "hidden" income beyond entry fee (i.e., food, drink, draft packs, Type 2, limited, and other format events going on simultaneously, sleeves, dice, etc. etc. etc).  

I suspect the SCG tourneys are a kind of experiment that they hope will lead to the following two events.

1) Promote Vintage
2) Which will then promote the sale of vintage cards

The price of all vintage staples, be they 5 dollars or 500 dollars, have skyrocketed in the past 3 years compared to what they were doing before that. And this is with only player-based support. If SCG can truly help create a "pro-tour" feel to vintage, card prices will go up, and they will sell more cards.

However SCG, while it may enjoy selling power, will never make "most" or even a lot (relatively speaking) of money selling power. They are a card shop, albeit a huge one, and must work on the law of bulk. Selling 5 moxen a month, even at a 200 dollar mark-up, has nothing on selling 100's of ravagers, glimmervoids, wastelands, whatever, at a 2 dollar mark-up in the same time period. If vintage ever becomes as popular as extended and type two, it would be a goldmine as far as singles (even "cheap" singles) for SCG.  

If I was SCG, I would focus far more on the advertising effect this could have, then worry about the possibility of selling a few pieces of power. Honestly, if selling a few pieces of power is going to make or break these tourneys for SCG, they are in trouble, and probably should not have done this in the first place. How many people bought power at Waterbury? How many people buy power from dealers in general? How many of your would pay the 200 dollar mark-up SCG has?

Furthermore, I suspect that the increase in proxies would certainly increase the attendance, with out significantly hurting their sale of singles at the event. Even with 10 proxies, people are still going to need that last tinker, welder, or whatever.

Ten proxies put people in the range to play decks like control slaver, Stax, 5/3, dragon, etc.

5 proxies force people into the realm of fish and doomsday, or worse yet, make people like me just not want to go (I'll still try and go of course, but its less likely).

If you were a dealer, which decks would you rather see your customers short a few cards on, fish or slaver? 4x cloud of fairies, or 4x welders?

Sure, Waterbury isn’t a card store, but the majority of other tourneys are. And don't forget, dealers DO continue to show up at Waterbury, and I'm pretty sure its not just for fun.

Its taken a while, but most places (even most stores) have realized, that if vintage gets popular, they will make far more money selling those vintage singles, then they would have made if they kept the player base low, and the product sitting unused on the shelf.  

There is no doubt in my mind that SCG is one of the largest players in the singles market. They can stand to make a lot of money by moving a lot of product if Vintage keeps growing. More profit, I would argue, then they would "lose" by not helping to push those prices up.  

I would like to make it clear that I am not advocating the use of Unlimited Proxy. I would like to make it clear that I do think there is a balance (as far as a business is concerned) with how many proxies they should allow, and I do not believe 5 proxies is it.

=-carter

P.S.
I also agree that the +1 dollar idea would be too much of a hassle

[Smmenen]

If people want more proxies, post it in the SCG forums and explain why.  If enough people bitch they might do something about it.

[Moxlotus]

I did my bitching, but then a bunch of people who are against ANY proxies started posting and basically crapped up the forum.

[Revvik]

<3 Star City forums.

Although I would also love to see you dust off "anything but Fish," ten-proxy does kind of kill a lot of profit.  Which is hard to explain, since a lot of this stuff isn't all that expensive.  Even Drains, reaching $100 apiece, just take a little patience to achieve good deals on - I didn't get a play set all at once, that would've just been stupid.

@ ten-proxy: with the success they've had at 5-proxy?  I honestly think something is wrong here.  People are given a little bit of a good thing, and want more.  This is echoed in attempts at revitalizing Suicide, Stompy, and Parfait variants - people are attempting true budget decks in the hopes that they can still be viable, when the truth is that this format in no way resembles what it did when it was essentially Keeper and five mono-colored decks designed to beat The Deck (though none ever could).  
My suggestion?  Find some people in your testing group / local area who are upgrading to Beta power, and talk to them about buying their old Unlimiteds over time.  I got an Ancestral and an English Drain doing this, and soon possibly a Lotus.  Cash is almost as important a factor as time and practice, unfortunately.

@ 5-proxy, with additional cost per additional proxies: If they can get the man-power to do the massive deck-check before hand, then this would be a good idea.  But I doubt they'll be able to do this very effectively.  Last Star City Chicago, I got called on an illegal sideboard for having written 4 Seal of Cleansing in the board and one in the main.  Not sure how that happened, since I was playing UBg 'Tog, not Stax or 5/3.  It settled out, but you can be sure mistakes are going to be made.

I can understand the desire to not want to play budget decks.  Trust me, I played U/R Fish in attempts to win power/high-cost cards to upgrade to higher-class decks.  I eventually gave up and started sacrificing some finer things in life (nicer restaurants, repairs to my car, hookers) to save up some money to pick up the stuff I need.  I'm now at a Library, three English Mana Drains, Time Walk (UL), Ancestral (UL), and a LOT of really nifty foils.  In about a half year.  And it didn't have to take nearly that long.

[nataz]

...

@ ten-proxy: with the success they've had at 5-proxy?  I honestly think something is wrong here.  People are given a little bit of a good thing, and want more.  This is echoed in attempts at revitalizing Suicide, Stompy, and Parfait variants - people are attempting true budget decks in the hopes that they can still be viable, when the truth is that this format in no way resembles what it did when it was essentially Keeper and five mono-colored decks designed to beat The Deck (though none ever could).  
My suggestion?  Find some people in your testing group / local area who are upgrading to Beta power, and talk to them about buying their old Unlimiteds over time.  I got an Ancestral and an English Drain doing this, and soon possibly a Lotus.  Cash is almost as important a factor as time and practice, unfortunately.

...

thank you for your lecture on the meta-game, I'm glad you cleared a few things up for me

I learned from your post that:

a) the meta-game no longer consists of mono colored decks and keeper
b) your great tradeing/buying/random acquireing of power tips.

And as for success at 5 proxy? I suppose it was moderate, numbers wise, but it was far from record setting. I do honestly think they would do better with ten proxy, and figured I would post my opinion here to see what the rest of the Type I community thinks.

I did it here because we can act like adults, unlike the SCG forum. If I have anything to do with the SCG website, it will be a PM to knut or someone else of that nature. I can't stand most of the posters there.

[Revvik]

nataz: most of the comments about the "metagame" were directed at attempts to go truly budget with nothing costing more than $20.  Thanks for jumping on my sarcasm and attacks on cheapskates as if they were an accurate assessment of today's field  

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic at the "tips" or not.  Either way, I think the best way to achieve a competitive level in today's environments isn't to lower the qualifications of competition (i.e.: decreasing the amount of "real" cards you need to compete), but to raise your standards.  For instance, one of the problems I have with a ten-proxy environment is the feel of a lesser skill level environment.  

I'm not saying that people who play in ten-proxy environments suck: I am saying that I run into more people who have had less practice with the decks they are piloting, because ten-proxy allows for someone to put together a new release, devote little time to testing it, and enter it in a tournament; whereas with five-proxy, you run into people who have had more experience with their decks, and have put more effort into completing and playtesting of said deck.  An unfortunate by-product of this is there are people who could be incredible with Control Slaver, but have zero hope of entering it in a five-proxy environment.

-------

You are right about them not being record-setting, though.  I don't recall the number of people in attendance at SCG III, but if they broke even I'd be surprised.  Would that change under ten-proxy?  My honest opinion (take it for what you will) is that they won't.  But I could be proven wrong.  There are probably a lot of people out there who wouldn't bother with attending a major five-proxy tournament, but would jump on a ten-proxy in a heartbeat.

[Kasuras]

Revvik:

You gave 2 options to us which were either make more money and sacrifice other things, trade better or test our decks more and with that get higher.

Now, I'm a 16 year old boy from Holland with no one whatsoever to trade good cards with. Not only that, but the number of t1 players in my area is about 3. So just trading the cards is plain impossible for me. Yes, I know of that site called "ebay". And yes, I also know people my age with just 1 hobby extra, gaming, and being at high school hoping to pass the year just don't have enough money for power cards. Now, this is just my personal situation and I don't mean to get sympathy, but really: some people don't even get enough money to buy power. Even if they do sacrifice some things. It's just not that simple.

The best thing I can probably get at the moment is Food Chain Goblins. And I'm not going to win a tourney with it.

If I would live in the US however, these tourneys were the exact thing I would want: every X time, there is a tournament I'm able to go to and thus play some magic. And I could even win some power cards.. IF it were 10 proxy. Because let's be honest: the difference in having some power and owning none are just still too great in such a system.

PS: your argument of people just not testing their decks is not one I think is a very good one. I know this is probably from own experience, but even with 10 proxy: you need to tweak your deck a lot if you want to win that power piece. And, if you're at the top tables: why would you care about the lesser players who didn't tweak their decks well?

[Revvik]

Tight spot, what with being in high-school and all.  I'm 19, and I didn't start acquiring major Type 1 stuff until I was done with basic education.  And I would almost never suggest eBay for buying power cards or staples.  Ebay prices can get pretty bad, and you have to spend a lot of time monitoring in order to spot the deals, and then pray you don't get screwed.
Food Chain Goblins is pretty damn good, by the way.  I've run into people who I have pretty much no chance of beating when they're piloting it.  If that's really all you have, stick with it and get damn good with it.
As for the people who don't spend a lot of time "tweaking" - quality of competition overall is lowered, and the top tables sometimes don't always feel that way  

[Royal Ass.]

With only 58 players showing up to the first tournament in their series, they might want to up the proxy limit to 10 in order to attract more people.  Otherwise they are going to lose a lot of money on entery fees while giving away all that power.  

I don't know why waterbury had 200 people, but I'm sure a lot of people who otherwise wouldnt have come, showed up because they could play the deck they  wanted to play with the increased number of proxies allowed.  It seems to me like it would be in SCG's  best intererst to get a highter attendace than worry about selling on or two pieces of power because of their low proxy rule.

Just some thoughts.  It is in fact in everyones best interset in the type one community to have high attendance for these things, even for people who dont attend like me because i live in the midwest.  Another thing that would increase attendance would be to post the top 8 deck lists before the next tournament so that people have something to get excited about.  I though that it was a really stupid idea to keep the Waterbury lists closed until after the SCG tournament.  Thats putting 16 people before the wellbeing of the entire type one community.  Not a very utilitarian principle

(Some of the low attendance could have to do with the weather- I dont know how bad it is out east, but lets hope that that is more the case than anything else.)

[Mixing Mike]

I think it's because Waterbury is in New England, aka the premiere T1 area in the US.  The number of proxies and the reputation of Waterbury may also have something to do with it.  The same goes for having a two day event.

Don't forget having two very large events only a week apart is very difficult to finance.  Large Magic tournaments are not cheap.  Airfare, gas, entry fee, food, hotel room, etc....

[Revvik]

The Waterbury results were withheld for different reasons, not just to "protect" an elite few, and even then, they weren't completely locked away - the Vintage Tournament Forum has 15 of the top 16, and if you read enough of the tournament results, you could probably know enough about SX to be able to handle it.

Waterbury is an extremely hyped event.  Extremely.  Moreso than Star City.  Like, advertising for it was almost "Waterbury WILL GET YOU LAID!"
Had I the time, I would've been there.

Part of the problem with the ten-proxy thing is that people can start to abuse it in ways that the game was never supposed to be abused.  When I see proxied Undiscovered Paradises in a five proxy event, then that is about as abusive as a Standard player proxying a Disciple of the Vault.  This isn't "making the top decks available," this is abuse.

58 people, huh?  If attendence is that abysmal, then hey, they gotta do what they gotta do.

[BigChuck]

You also have to take into account the large amounts of snow/bad weather expected on the east cost today. Most people aren't going to want to have to drive much further than an hour or two back home in lousy weather, as opposed to Waterbury last weekend where weather wasn't really an issue.

[jpmeyer]

You also have to take into account the large amounts of snow/bad weather expected on the east cost today. Most people aren't going to want to have to drive much further than an hour or two back home in lousy weather, as opposed to Waterbury last weekend where weather wasn't really an issue.

And also remember that the previous P9 events all had well over 100 people at them.  Calling this a fluke because of the weather is probably correct.

[Komatteru]

Perhaps attendance was a bit down because Waterbury was last weekend.  It might be too much of a drain on people to play at big tournaments two weekends in a row.

The pre-release for Betrayers was also today.  Events such as that and states take away all the semi-random people who don't play T1 all that much, yet own the power and all the staple cards.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Maybe attendance won't be down that dramatically in numbers, but enough to be noticeable, and if thats the case, then it's a problem.  Every major tournament EXCEPT SCG has been ten proxies.  I mean ray listened to what people had to say and upped the proxy count from 5 to 10, I don't see why SCG can't consider to do something like this.  

Small example: They have a five proxy limit, me and my 3 other friends will not be able to attend SCG NY, 30 dollars per entry fee...120 dollars of money they could be making on our entry fee that they won't with 5 proxies.  will upping the count from five to ten proxies scare people away? no, but will allowing only five proxies? yes.  The point is, the numbers add up, and you cannot argue they don't lose business by having only five proxies....anyone who wants to try to see if they will make this CORRECT, please post it in here.



http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=270985&start=25





EDIT:

Part of the problem with the ten-proxy thing is that people can start to abuse it in ways that the game was never supposed to be abused.

Yea and the game isn't built for the type one, the tournament is, MTG is primarily a type 2 game, I don't see how this point is relivant to the topic at hand.  I don't see how you would consider it abusive to allow people to build a deck that they want to play by using the ten proxies.  It's a fair way to even out the playing field, regardless of how you wanna look at it, if someone is thinking in their head "control slavery is the best deck, and I think I could win with it" don't you think they have the right to try to win with it? not "so i'll just play FCG"  Your saying the game isn't meant to be abused, so how does that relate to FORCING people to rather

A. Not go, SCG loses 30 dollars minimum
B. Play a crappy deck they don't have a chance to win with.

By taking away someones option to play a deck, it takes away an individuals ability to play the game, it starts to turn into "he has more money then me, so he wins" rather then "he's a better player" and THAT my friend is not the way the game is meant to be played

Real classy, stay classy revvik also stay class san diego

[Cross]

Obviously weather had a big effect on SCG last weekend, no one can deny that.

I still think, however, that 5 proxy makes no sense. Even economically for SCG as a business ten proxy makes so much more sense. Consider my team and I. Currently none of us can go because as a team we can’t put together more than few five proxy decks that are viable. That’s at least $100 that SCG will not have, not taking into account other things we would buy, IE food, janky sideboard cards from dealers; and more so, money into the community at large such as food, gas and hotel money.

Considering some of the arguments brought up against this, mostly by Revvik. Who cares what the play-skill of players who use 10 proxy is? That is not what is at issue in this thread, neither economically, or even on the strength of the meta. How often people play test is not a factor of proxy limit. Additionally the meta would still be stronger because more and better decks would be represented. The deal with it reasoning you’ve continually posted on is not helping in the least, and most of it makes no sense.

Secondly, who cares what cards people proxy? If anything SCG would make more money on tournament registration than selling a Disciple of the vault or Undiscovered paradises or whatever. Most people use it to proxy power, and expensive staples. If SCG was really worried about this, would they allow trading at their events? If anything you could argue that they are losing more money to trading then they ever would to allowing people to proxy random cards.

EDIT:

Except five proxies is faaaar more reasonable when you consider that they're also in the business of selling cards.

So are the dealers at waterbury, and it was the biggest it's ever been this year. In addition to this, not to be redundant, but a large percentage of the profits comes from registration. Consider the post by Pete Hoefling, in the tournament forum: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21547

When I first announced the 2005 Star City "Power Nine" Tournament Series, I personally guaranteed that I would *always* give away the complete set of P9, regardless of attendance.

A tournaments success and profitability are based on attendance, not on cards sold at the event.

I think anyone who agrees with us should get an SCG forum's account, and post in their tournament sticky as many of us had. Your support is greatly appreciated.

[Methuselahn]

NO NO NO NO NO. I'm against anything that further derails the natural, general meta that sanctioned tournaments create.  

Why would you want 10 proxies?  To see more Workshop Trinisphere decks?  Maybe you like Coin Flip matches every single time.  More combo decks show up with more proxies.

10 proxies doesn't make a better meta, it just makes a different one.  One could argue that more proxies makes the environment more 'fair.'  Well, who cares about fair.  Life has never been fair, why should magic be the exception.  

There is also no need to have lots of proxies to attract more people to Vintage.  This excuse is dated.  Vintage is growing and right now, has no indication of stopping.

5 proxies, not 10 because you gotta pay to play.

The more proxies you allow, the more people without power will show up and want to compete.  This effect snowballs into increased costs for moxen due to obvious supply and demand interaction.

[Bdrake5150]

I can see both sides to this arguement, and from the point of view from a player without a team to have to wory about building decks for it comes down to knowing what metagame to expect from a 5 and 10 proxy tournament.

Honestly I will go to a 5 or 10 proxy tournament as long as I can get there, and the number of proxies will almost never deter me from playing a certain deck. However I do feel that the overall metagame is vastly different. From what I have seen in a 5 proxy enviornment you see more DDay, FCG, and Oath as those decks dont need the complete power 9 +MWS to be effective. In a 10 proxy enviornment you have to figure that the entire field has the abiltiy to play almost whatever deck suits their fancy. Thus trying to predict the meta can be challenging. I saw this in Waterbury, as I and many others were expecting alot more MWS+ 3sphere on turn 1.

I feel that 10 proxie does allow for a wider variety of innovative decks because you are not as worried about actually having the cards. In a 5 proxt enviornment you have to have at least some power, or play a deck that does not require it all. Thus limiting your options somewhat.

Personally I prefer 5 proxy enviornment. However if T1 is going to continue to grow new players to t1 have to be able to play decks they deem "teir 1" and thus the 10 proxy enviornment suits them. this brings more $$$ and people to tournies and thus grows the community as a whole.

Jason

[Klep]

The more proxies you allow, the more people without power will show up and want to compete.  This effect snowballs into increased costs for moxen due to obvious supply and demand interaction.

And more people playing this format would just be terrible, wouldn't it.  

10 proxies does not necessarily create a "better" metagame or a "more fair" one, it just creates a more accurate one.  Quite frankly, I'd prefer a metagame that's an accurate representation of the capabilities of the card pool over a "good" metagame any day, as it allows us to see if there are really any problems that need to be taken care of.

The "natural" metagame you speak of is not really natural in the sense that it is not the metagame that the card pool creates.   It is instead a twisted version of the actual metagame caused by the unnatural restriction of the ability of players to actually use all of the cards in the card pool.  Tell me this.  If the "natural" metagame is so great, why is it that only with proxies has the format become so popular?

That said, though I would prefer a 10 proxy setting, I can completely understand and support it if StarCity feels that it is more fiscally responsible to stick to 5.  They are a business, after all.

[TrixR4Kidz]

10 proxies doesn't make a better meta, it just makes a different one. One could argue that more proxies makes the environment more 'fair.' Well, who cares about fair. Life has never been fair, why should magic be the exception.  

Ok first of all, plz don't compare magic the gathering to life, magic is a game, games are meant to be fair, so if your arguement is "life isn't fair" then it's a very bad one, and sounds like something a 12 year old would argue....

Why would you want 10 proxies? To see more Workshop Trinisphere decks? Maybe you like Coin Flip matches every single time. More combo decks show up with more proxies.

Secondly, Yes I would like to see more Workshop/Combo decks, it is what type one is all about, powerful decks, and besides, if someone can sucessfully run a workshop or combo deck with five proxies, they have the advantage over the rest of the compeitiion, it shouldn't be a game about who has more money, it should be about play ability, I can't understand how you don't agree on that.  Also have you looked at waterbury's recent top 16 standings, that happened to be a ten proxy tournament, by the way 202 people showed up, and how many decks were workshop/trini or combo decks in the top 16? not too many, another one of your points down the drain.

The more proxies you allow, the more people without power will show up and want to compete. This effect snowballs into increased costs for moxen due to obvious supply and demand interaction.

I'm not sure if you understand the topoic, the point is to GET more to show up, I have no idea why you would say something like this.

There is also no need to have lots of proxies to attract more people to Vintage. This excuse is dated. Vintage is growing and right now, has no indication of stopping.

Noone said this event was going to stop the popularity of type one, people aren't going to quit magic over, but alot more just won't show up to this particular event.  I'm not sure if you have noticed lately, but just about EVERY other type one tournament is having ten proxies, it's not about your personal preference on five proxies opposed to ten, it's about a business standpoint, I want to attend this event, which can only be possible with a ten proxy limit, I know YOU personally don't care if I go, but I would like to compete in this thing as well.