parfait, now competetive?

[scott2]

first here's the deck

\card advantage stuff
4 land tax
3 scroll rack

\disruption
3 humility
3 aura of silence
1 story circle
2 wrath of god
4 swords to plowshares
1 balance
3 orim's chant

\stuff
1 soldevi digger
4 argivian find
1 enlightened tutor
2 zuran orb
1 ivory tower
1 planar birth

\kill
1 decree of justice
2 goblin charbelcher

\reason magic is better that yu gi oh
20 plains
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox pearl

sideboard: not a clue

the question is, is this competetive? It can beat all the big decks pretty consistently. mono blue, oath, workshop, slaver, tog and can pull off the wins vs tendrils and food chain. combo is hard, but just add some crazy sideboard for it aka ivory mask abeyance ect...

note: not playtested i'm a netdecker by trade i just threw this together from old knowledge

i'll group this stuff by the little names after "\"

card advatage stuff
my favorite combo that is boring as hell. getting a fresh new hand of 10 cards every upkeep seems pretty good to me (but that's just me)

disruption
white has some stuff that is being completely overlooked aka humility aura of silence and... swords to plowshares stp owns oath and so does humility speaking of humility it owns jsut about every deck out there food chain oath slaver workshop ect... and aura of silence is redick vs. so many things workshop and every deck that likes to play solomoxen lol oh and orim's chant is good vs so many things

stuff
just some random cards thrown into the mix. digger and find are the reasons this deck can beat counter magic so well. control has to counter everything 12 times or so lol
zuran orb is good to get land tax up and running and some good life as well. ivory tower is just a life house after you get the land tax/ scroll rack combo going

kill
decree is there to get out of impossible situations i think it is most useful, however, to kill some attackers after humility drops aka instant wrath of god that lets you draw a card mmmmmmm good. (also can be fun after a well placed planar birth)
charbelcher is the main kill. i really don't see another good winning condition

so please help me out and give me some oppinions

[Kowal]

now competetive?

No, not really.  But feel free to discuss the optimal build in the newbie forum.

[Valdner]

Would it really hurt the deck to run four Plateau? It would help the Charbelcher on occasion and wouldn't hurt casting spells. I've never played Pafait, so I wouldn't know.

[Joblin Velder]

Adding at least 2 plateaus is a good idea. As said, it helps charbelcher out. In addition, it lets your run the awesome REB  and Pyrostatic Pillar in the side.

[Nazdakka]

Would it really hurt the deck to run four Plateau? It would help the Charbelcher on occasion and wouldn't hurt casting spells. I've never played Pafait, so I wouldn't know.

Yes, it would ^^. To win, Parfait aims to get all the land out of the deck for one huge belch as opposed to lots of small ones (!), and Land Tax only gets basics. If he had Tithe in there, it might be workable, as it gets duals.

the question is, is this competetive? It can beat all the big decks pretty consistently. mono blue, oath, workshop, slaver, tog and can pull off the wins vs tendrils and food chain. combo is hard, but just add some crazy sideboard for it aka ivory mask abeyance ect...

note: not playtested i'm a netdecker by trade i just threw this together from old knowledge

These two statements are a little odd . You know 'it can beat all the big decks pretty consistently', but you haven't tested to find this out. How did you determine that? Psychic powers?

Anyway, before you start trying to collect the bits, you should know one thing: Parfait sucks. It's hard to play well, and even if you learn all the deck's ins and outs, you will probably still lose to someone who netdecked a bad Hulk deck the night before and then went out and got pissed. It's a joke deck nowadays.

Still, if you still want to make the deck, IMO to even survive in a scrubby meta Parfait has to splash. It's easy and painless with Land Tax/Tithe, and you get Ancestral and Time Walk if you go with the Blue splash, or loadsa burn to put on your Isochrons if you go red. The biggest thing to remember though is to play to Parfait's strength - the Tax-Rack engine. You know how Brainstorm lets you play random 1-ofs? You can use that philosophy and take it a whole lot further with Parfait, because anything you don't like gets ditched to Scroll Rack and then shuffled away. So run 1-of silver bullets. LOTS of them. Back to Basics. Energy flux. Extraplanar lens. MD RoP:Red and Black. You get the idea

I personally favour a fairly radical blue/black spash combo build with minimal creature kill if I'm trying to embarass good decks, but the red splash burn version is more reliable in casual games.

PS: No decklist to hand. I have no idea where it is.

[scott2]

i have played it a little vs the big decks, it does beat oath and slaver it can beat tendrils and it can beat food chain

btw it is not hard to figure out if a deck can beat another deck
aura of silence +wrath + stp +humility = very good against workshop beatdown
orim's chant + ivory mask= can win vs. food chain tendrils
humility+stp+argivian find+wrath+story circle+orim's chant= beats oath

sometimes common sence can take place of testing lol

new decklist

\card advantage
4 land tax
3 scroll rack

\disruption
3 aura of silence
2 wrath of god
3 humility
1 story circle
1 ivory mask
4 swords to plowshares
4 orim's chant
1 balance

\stuff
2 zuran orb
4 argivian find
1 enlightened tutor
1 ivory tower

\win
1 decree of justice
2 goblin charbelcher

\reason magic is better than yu gi oh
1 sol ring
1 grim monolith
1 mana vault
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 mox pearl
1 black lotus
16 plains

\side
3 rule of law (combo especially tendrils)
4 abeyance (combo expecially tendrils)
3 seal of cleansing (workshop stuff)
2 ivory mask (combo especially tendrils)

3 sphere of law (food chain)
or
3 other good cards that take care of a deck in your meta

btw i hate sceptor in the deck it is way too clunky and very crappy vs. counter magic

[Tristal]

You are right about one thing, Scepter is bad in this deck.

[Mog]

I don't think that Parfait can be completely white.  Adding red gives some goods to the Charbelcher if you have to do it fast or you can't tax all the lands out.  Also, gives you some board options to improve matches post-board that are needed.  And of course the reason to include red, Blood Moon.  

I disagree with the idea that "OMG Parfait suckzorz!!!!"  I realize that my inexperience of vintage debunks this claim, but I feel that while it can't just bust out really broken stuff like Stax and the like, it has it's time.  I haven't tested many matches, mainly Oath.  But it does against Oath.  I think that it has the ability to hold it's own, primarily for the rogue reason when you take it to a tournament.  

I think that the decklists that have been posted have way too much creature hate in them.  Probably cuz they're mono-white and there's a limited reach with them.  Keep in mind that you can't afford play slow cards like DoJ, and WoG just doesn't merit a spot.  This deck survives on low amounts of land and needs to be taxing as much as possible.  I have even, under some circumstances, opted not to play a land so that I would be able to tax the next turn.  Also, you don't want to play your lands b/c they will be mostly scrolled for the ancestral per turn.  I also think that humility is a must and is much better than WoG or any other creature hate.  Also, Slice and Dice is another option that I saw some ppl using and works very well.  The 2R uncounterable WoG that draws you a card and has spell flexibility is pretty good.

[Covetous]

sometimes common sence can take place of testing lol

This is the worst thing I have ever heard.  I assume the lol means that you were kidding, but I'm not sure based on what you said before the quoted line.  Saying that 4cc spells can beat decks with a fundamental turn of 1 is terrible and simply wrong.  I therefore doubt that you even know what these other decks have in them, and/or how to play them.  This deck has like 3-4 actual threats--scroll rack.  Saying that you can punch them through 16 counters to beat mono-blue (or even 12 to beat Oath) seems unlikely.  How will this deck beat Tog through 4x duress 4x mana drain 4x force of will and one of the best draw engines ever?  Same with control slaver except that control slaver has an even BETTER draw engine and can slave you before trying to win.

If you are talking about playing in a non-powered super-scrub metagame, then maybe mono-white parfait is a decent choice.  Unpowered Oath would probably be much better.  However, saying that Parfait will beat Oath because you have Humility in your deck is completely ridiculous.  

It is very true that parfait should at least splash Red for SB options (you don't even need palteaus because you can search out a lone mountain using Tax).  REB, Rack & Ruin, etc. help to answer the problems that mono-white parfait has, namely, sucking.  I have considered playing WB Parfait using Duress/Cabal Therapy with Rector to allow running more 1-of bomb enchantments, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be as good as WR using some of the best SB cards ever.  The problem is space--it takes too much space to add in the cards that will make this deck good.  The parfait strategy is fundamentally flawed because it is inherently slow, avoiding artifact acceleration and relying on NOT playing lands for a few turns to activate Tax.  A control deck should run blue--any control deck lacking blue is inherently not as good as one which does.

[Mog]

While I agree that mono-blue and things like Tog could be difficult matchups, and they probably are, I will concede that I haven't tested those matchups.  However, you do have many ways to punch through the counters.  With the recursion effects it makes the deck a bit more playable.  

Parfait doesn't beat Oath just b/c it has humility.  It beats oath b/c it has so much hate against that deck and they need to counter loads of stuff.  Parfait isn't even scared of Oath, especially preboard.  Look, we've got tons of bombs against them like: Blood Moon, Seal of Cleansing, Humility, and StP; all of which are great if they come out when playing Oath.  I agree that post-board it gets a lot harder, since we basically board nothing in and Oath puts in their pro creatures.  

The parfait strategy is fundamentally flawed because it is inherently slow, avoiding artifact acceleration and relying on NOT playing lands for a few turns to activate Tax.

My point about Land Tax was only a desperate situation.  Zuran Orb is used to make it so that you are always taxing, which is key.  Parfait is a deck that doesn't rely on land very much.  Lack of artifact acceleration?  Parfait plays (or at least it should) with a good deal of it.  I don't think it merits all the moxen, but at least some the on-color ones, crypt, lotus, and petal.  

Also, I don't think that every control deck needs blue.  I think that this deck functions better without it b/c red does more and has more synergy than blue in Parfait.

Edit: I think there is a lot of confusion b/w versions and stuff, so I think I should post the version that I have been playing.  It is netdecked from someone who T8'd:

Cherry Parfait

// Lands
    3  Mountain
    11  Plains

// Spells
    4  Land Tax
    4  Scroll Rack
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Balance
    1  Replenish
    1  Lotus Petal
    4  Argivian Find
    2  Zuran Orb
    1  Enlightened Tutor
    2  Slice and Dice
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Goblin Charbelcher
    1  Mox Diamond
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Blood Moon
    4  Seal of Cleansing
    4  Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Slice and Dice
SB: 4  Rack and Ruin
SB: 4  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2  Ivory Mask

Note: the sideboard is still in testing, my friend said he changed it but I haven't contacted him yet...

[bonblaireau]

I don't agree with this list : a trinisphere on the first turn will beat you b/c you are just playing 14 lands.
I think Parfait would play more lands, and kill with goblin tranches (add waste/strip and crucible).

[Aykay]

is Land tax really great in a format where most tier  decks rely heavily on moxen, lotus, etc?

[Apprentice]

First off, If you are running belcher you shouldn't argue against adding red. IMHO the deck has grown around red and likes to use it over any color. No counters? You have the 8 blasts. No disruption? You have chant/abeyance. Both black and blue are weak in splash, they merit a serious deck rerout.

Secondly, Parfait can be played mono-white, and it is. I play this way. I use red in my SB, but playing with the mono white pre-sidebaord build teaches me how to win many many matchups in first game.

Next, Plateau is a weak card choice, it can't be taxed for and it is non basic. Why not run mountains? You can search for them! They arent affected by Back to Basics, too.

Counter wall? I rarely have the problem. First off, I run 4 Chants, (which may or may not be accompanied by Abeyance), 4 Isochron Scepter (anyone who doesnt play this is making and error IMHO), 4 Argivian Find, and 2 Replenish. Put those in with 4 Scroll Rack and you have 18 threats that 16 must be countered. This defeats the most rigorous Mono Blue Control decks one for one.

Isochron Scepter is a bomb! Clunky? It costs 2 (!!!) mana. If anything, WoG is clunky, and one shot. Iso can be a swords/disenchant/chant/abeyance EVERY TURN. This effectively adds 4 more must counter spells and an additional win combo. Can you say effective Time Walk every turn? Isocron does this with Abeyance/Chant.

And Humility or Moat over Wrath of God anyday.

Also, addding CoP maindeck is a really bad cardchoice, especially when you have Story Circle to play. If you really really needed them (if you were in a heavy aggro area that ran stompy and sligh all day long) then at worst I would play maindeck Rune of Protection, it cycles when you draw it before you get your combo. Story Circle is almost never a dead draw, unless you are playing against Academy or Tendrils. Just because you can rack it away doesn't mean you should add dead draws to your deck. The point of the silver bullets is to hose one strategy completely and then effect the other strategies slightly. look at Humility. It kills all aggro decks and look what else it does! It hoses Morphling, too! And Welder, and Tog, damn, what doesnt it do??

My current Build:

Mana (20):

11 Plains
1 Mountian
1 Serra's Sanctum
R Strip Mine
R Lotus Petal
R Mox Pearl
R Mox R00b
R Mox Diamond
R Black Lotus
R Sol Ring

Combo (10):

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb
R Enlighteded Tutor

Bullets (11):

2 Humility
1 Moat
1 Ivory Mask
2 Story Circle
3 Aura of Silence
1 Disenchant
R Balance

Utility (17):

4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Argivian Find
4 Isochron Scepter
1 Replenish

Kill (2):

2 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard contains different things on different days, but usually include:

Blood Moon
ReB
Slice and Dice
Ivory Mask
Aegis of Honor
Cop Red
Cop Black
other assortment of things.

-Apprentice

[bonblaireau]

Why don't you play tithe? When I played this version of Parfait tithe was THE card to be counter. And I think serra's sanctum and strip mine are bad in this current build : you cannot tutor them. When you play charbelcher as kill, you have to play as a combo deck.
Scepter is good choice, but not fun for your opponent  

[maxxx]

why not splash black with red...

you gain access to good tutors ( demonic & vampiric)
vindicate( always good to kill a little thing)

pack a half set of wastes + crucible ( always good)

I tried the eternal dragon and it worked really well. It gives you land in game beggining and later you put it into play and kill with it.

[Apprentice]

I see your point about the Strip and Sanctum, usually it isnt a problem though. I only use my belcher when I have complete lockdown anyway...

I never saw the point of Tithe, it is a cardslot that a bullet could fill, and next to land tax it doesn't do much, you can Tax every turn, Tithe is one shot. It is a nice shuffle effect, which this deck never gets enough of though.

The addition of both black and red would be bad IMHO, sure you get two nice tutors, but you get fairly weaker manabase for it. It really depends on who you are. Vindicate is nice for more kill cards, but usually you can hate out anything that hits the board. If I were to go with black my card choices would include tutors and Duress, and probably not more.

-Apprentice

[Razor]

The list that Mog posted above is my Gencon August 2004 list. <sighs> Dr.Sylvan posted it without my consent and it has been floating around ever since.  It did T8 a couple of times.

Metagame

White Necro is a good engine.  Parfait builds a decent prison.  It utterly owned: Aggro, Fish, Dragon and Welder decks.  Unfortunately, it rolled over to Combo including TPS and 'Tog [Deeds = shudder].  Surprisingly, Ravager killed it, too.

I don't agree with this list : a trinisphere on the first turn will beat you b/c you are just playing 14 lands.

I can see why you'd think that.  However, I was one of the few players to actually beat the world champion's Control Slaver deck, despite his turn 1 Trinesphere.


Mana

Parfait's mana-base is bomb-proof.  Defy temptation - I discourage use of any non-basics including Strip Mine or Library in 'Belcher versions.  The new card Cranial Extraction scares me.  Basic land really is tech [which is another reason it can survive Turn 1 Trinesphere].

Redundancy

I encourage all of you to play more 4-of's in your Parfait builds given white's lack of tutoring.  Silver-bullets need tutors and early-draw to dig them out on-demand so don't rely on 1-of's to save you in a slow white deck like this.

Disruption

Humility is the meta-bomb.  What deck isn't abusing creatures?  A couple of Combo decks which run into at least some trouble in: Orim's Chant, Tormod's Crypt, Ivory Mask, Zuran Orb and Rule of Law.

When blue says 'no' Argivian Find says 'yes'.  Find says make trouble over and over, or at least lots of Lotus-action - "white ritual".

Cherry Parfait was pioneered by Morphling and K-Run who liked the idea of splashing red for Blood Moon. Blood Moon made the deck great.  Rack and Ruin and Red El.Blast helped, too.  However, Blood Moon is once again, weak in the modern metagame which has been forced to adapt to Crucible of Worlds non-basic land destruction. Heck, even Food Chain Goblins and Control Slaver are running Blood Moon in their sideboards.  

Kill-Cards

I haven't been able to think of a card yet that serves as a better shuffler (for Scroll Rack), better kill card which offers better board-control than Goblin Charbelcher.  Too bad fetch-lands have no synergy with Tax and 'Belcher because they are as great with Scroll Rack as they are with Brainstorm.  

Eternal Dragon is ok if you don't play with any Humility; however, I think Parfait needs Humility.  Decree, like E.Dragon, seems rather mana-intensive (Planar Birth = meh) which is inherently at odds with the White Necro Tax/Rack engine.

Mobilization, Sacred Mesa, and Goblin Trenches look alright since they are cheap and at least dodge the artifact hate running rampant at the moment; however, unlike 'Belcher they don't kill Welders or Monkies do they?  These might justify the use of non-basics including the usual suspects and Serra's Sanctum.

It seems like Parfait should stick with 'Belcher for awhile.

Hunch

Parfait is admittedly slow and requires P9, skill and patience to play.  I doubt it is a strong choice for this metagame even though Dragon, Oath and Slaver are ok matchups.

[Carlos]

Hi Razor, how can you manage the drawback of the Mana Crypt in Parfait? That Parfait is a slow deck is well known and with a Mana Crypt in the firsts turns can mean a lot of points of damage.

[Razor]

I was resistive to even trying Mana Crypt for the same reasons as you.  However, K-Run insisted it was golden, saying: "It's your second Lotus..."  He was right.  The damage is negligible in the face of the added control it gives you.

What deck is giving you enough damage to make the Mana Crypt's average 1.5 damage per turn after it comes down scary?  Artifact mana is necessary to let you cast up to 4cc spells while keeping White Necro opperating.  Worst case I can usually waste a Seal on it though I hate myself a little more each time that I do.

[Tristal]

Razor, you mention that you feel Blood Moon has become weaker in the metagame.  What would you feel makes a good replacement?  Orim's Chant?  Abolish?

[bonblaireau]

Abolish isn't a good choice in a meta without Combo-dragon. An analyse of your local meta is the key.
But I currently testing this deck with blood moon in sideboard and chants main deck, the presence of TPS and over tendrill's decks in the format is determinant, and they are still good against control.

RAZOR: can you post your actual sideboard? Dust to dust could be a better choice than rack and ruin(ok it is a sorcery, but it is a REMOVING)?
I have a T1 event this week-end, and I'm thinking playing this version. Thanks for tour help.

[Razor]

Seal is already Sorcery speed, which means you probably won't get to cast it versus the decks you need to ie.Stax.  Sacred Ground SB is as slow as I'd go if you want to drop the Rack and Ruins and still have a chance versus Stax.

There is no replacement for Blood Moon; it was a short-lived meta-bomb.

My maindeck disruption is 6 cards different now, and my sideboard has tried all kinds of ideas including Exalted Angel X4.  -4 Humility +4 Angel is fun.  But they weren't necessary really because the Aggro matchup is already very favourable.

Null Rods, Mox Monkies, Energy Flux are still annoying on occasion.  Good luck boys.

[bonblaireau]

I don't success with parfait ...
This deck have many problems due to its lack of draw engine : tax/rack is great but if you don't have it on table it's very difficult to win...
Blood moon disappointed me, the format can easily deal with it.
I think parfait needs a new card to be a better choice in current metagame, but I don't know wich card... Parfait needs to be stabilise, it's a plaisant deck and it can manage threats on table.
I have tested reb or chants maindeck : those cards are too much in passivity.

Yours feelings are welcome.

[maxxx]

The addition of both black and red would be bad IMHO, sure you get two nice tutors, but you get fairly weaker manabase for it. It really depends on who you are. Vindicate is nice for more kill cards, but usually you can hate out anything that hits the board. If I were to go with black my card choices would include tutors and Duress, and probably not more.

-Apprentice

i dont aggree with that point. you only have to put let's say 1-3 scrubland and a few swamps that you will be able to fetch with tax. With more tutors you get the bullets you need early and make you win more games.

[bonblaireau]

maxxx: do you think parfait must be Evil, or is possible in current meta to play red AND black?
I'm now thinking about an old version of Evil Parfait (I think the last posted for K-Run on TMD in january 2004) including duress, mind twist(?), tutors and chains maindeck. This last card is very interesting I think:Parfait is a very slow deck and over decks can draw more. Therefore a solution could be adding chains:the others decks will be more slowly.
In a deck like that I don't know what kill can be play. Mesa is TOO slow,and belcher isn't so strong with much land. Maybe I'll test tranchee, I like the combo with crucible/tranchee, tranchee/tax, crucible/waste & strip.

[bonblaireau]

what do you think about artifact blast in parfait with red? With workshop.deck could be maindecking, or its place is in sideboard?

[Raph Caron]

Just to give you an idea of what I’m playing right now...

K-Run’s Evil Parfait – February 2005

4 Duress
1 Orim’s Chant

1 Balance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sicken
1 Vindicate
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing

2 Humility
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod’s Crypt

2 Sacred Mesa

4 Scroll Rack
3 Land Tax
2 Zuran Orb

4 Argivian Find
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor

6 Plains
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

[giddygorgon]

I used to play parfait obbsesively, and I remember that my allstar card was always Isochron Scepter.  There was not too much artifact hate in my meta which is probably why, but I ran 4 of them, along with Tithe and a few other instants such as 4 Maindeck Orim's Chant.  There may be too much artifact hate for this to work, but I remember that scepter won me too many games to count.  (I won a couple of small local tournaments with it.)  I thought that Tithe really helped the deck because it allowed it to run 1-4 Plateau that could be fetched w/ Tithe, giving it a more stable mana-base against decks not packing non-basic land hate.  My list was much different from Razor's Gencon List, but it worked well.  Just throwing some ideas out there for you guys to work around with.

[oldbsturgeon]

i remember when scepter first came out i had it in mine as well, as a imprinted tithe, chant, or even disenchant was huge. the problem though is and i think youre right is that it is easily killable. take for instance if you are playing CS or anything with welders, they would probably if they can weld it out. not to mention things like rack and ruin ruining your day. i also found that when i imprinted something i needed the mana to utilize the draw engine and such, instead of spending it on the imprint target.
with regards to the last deck, im not a big fan of the sacred mesa kill. its so slow and can be disrupted easily. i personally like belcher more, but thats just me. i also believe that reducing the non basics is key for this deck. i always wanted the strip lands too, but found that basics were better for it.
blood moon is not necessary anymore, just stick with black

[bonblaireau]

trini is restricted, do you think parfait could be a decent deck right now, with wich build?