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Author Topic: [Deck] Underworld Dreams  (Read 7164 times)
KDenz81
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« on: January 27, 2005, 04:24:57 pm »

This is a deck I named "Sweet Dreams".  I've been working on this deck since Stronghold came out and I brought the Mindwarper pre-con. :shock:
Here's the decklist for it.

Black

4X Underworld Dreams
4X Dark Ritual
1X Deumonic Tutor
1X Vampiric Tutor
1X Yawgmoth's Will

Blue

4X Force of Will
4X Counterspell
4X Brainstorm
2X Mana Drain (Proxied)
1X Ancestral Recall (Proxied)
1X Time Walk (Proxied)
1X Timetwister (Proxied)
1X Mystical Tutor
1X Tinker

Red

4X Winds of Change
1X Wheel of Fortune

Multi

2X Recoil

Artifact

1X Mox Saphire (Proxied)
1X Mox Jet (Proxied)
1X Mox Ruby (Proxied)
1X Black Lotus (Proxied)
1X Lotus Petal
1X Memory Jar
1X Sol Ring
1X Black Vise

Land

4X Underground Sea
4X Volcanic Island
4X Polluted Delta
3X Badlands
1X Bloodstained Mire

SB

4X Terminate
2X Planar Void
2X Stifle
2X Annul
2X Rack and Ruin
2X Pyroblast
1X Slice and Dice


If you have any suggestions, questions, or comments, feel free to give them. The deck still needs a little work in tweaking out small problems like getting color screwed and comboing out and parts of the sideboard.

Denz
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Green Knight
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2005, 06:11:19 pm »

I have found Underworld Dream to be a good fun deck. Unfortunately it just is not consistent enough to be competitive in Type One.
I would highly suggest adding a Windfall and Time Spiral.
You have a ton of counter magic, which I'll admit is nice; however I would cut the counter spells for Duress'.
Next using Underworld Dreams demands black mana and I wouldn't run any non-black sources, to optimize your chances of a first turn Duress or Ritual -> Underworld. This also helps to keep you from stalling out due to color screw. I suggest City of Brass over the Volcanic Islands.
I also used Demonic Consultation to for more tutor power but found this to remove too many of your Draw Seven's leaving you unable to win, so stay away from that. One card I did like for this was Lim-Dul's Vault.
Often times I found myself with Tinker in hand and Memory Jar in the grave, or in play I really wanted a second target for the Tinker and Platinum Angel has to be answered, and serves as an alternant win condition.

Here is the list I ran for awhile:
Kill-
4 Underworld Dreams
1 Platinum Angel
Tutors-
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
4 Impulse/Lim-Dul’s Vault
Broken-
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Time Walk
Control-
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
Draw-
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Twister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wind Fall
1 Time Spiral
1 Memory Jar
4 Brainstorm
-33
Mana-
4 Polluted Delta
4 CoB
4 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
5 Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Pedal
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Swamp/Lion’s Eye Diamond
-27

I hope this helps you some. Good luck with the deck and have fun,

Zach
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KDenz81
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2005, 12:20:03 pm »

I used to run Windfall and Time Spiral in this deck, I still have a Windfall kicking around but I'd have to pick up a Time Spiral.  

I also used to run two Duress over the Mana Drains.  I could instead run two Counterspells and cut the Mana Drains to run 4 Duress.  

As far as City of Brass is concerned, it hurts more than helps.  I only need maximum of 1 red source.  Thus I would rather run Underground Rivers, they tap for the two main colors of the deck and collorless.

This deck has gone so many revisions.  It used to run Anvil of Bogardan, Phyrexian Tyrany, Urza's Guilt, Trade Secrets, Wheel and Deal, and Lim Dul's Vault.  The only reason I took out Lim Dul's is I ran into a Slaver deck and he used it to kill me.  

I could also probably cut the Vise, it serves no real purpose in the deck.

So these will be the revisions that I will make next to the deck.

Black

4X Underworld Dreams
4X Dark Ritual
4X Duress
1X Megrim
1X Demonic Tutor
1X Vampiric Tutor
1X Yawgmoth's Will

Blue

4X Force of Will
4X Brainstorm
2X Counterspell
1X Windfall
1X Time Spiral
1X Ancestral Recall (Proxied)
1X Time Walk (Proxied)
1X Timetwister (Proxied)
1X Mystical Tutor
1X Tinker

Red

4X Winds of Change
1X Wheel of Fortune

Multi

2X Recoil

Artifact

1X Mox Saphire (Proxied)
1X Mox Jet (Proxied)
1X Mox Ruby (Proxied)
1X Black Lotus (Proxied)
1X Lotus Petal
1X Memory Jar
1X Sol Ring

Land

4X Underground Sea
4X Underground River
4X Polluted Delta
3X Badlands
1X Bloodstained Mire

SB

4X Terminate
2X Planar Void
2X Stifle
2X Annul
2X Rack and Ruin
2X Pyroblast
1X Slice and Dice
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Avangel
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2005, 12:50:06 pm »

I was thinking about UD this morning.  Almost everyone uses a ton of draw in Type 1.  A 1st turn UD might mean game if your playing a quick beats deck but the fact is there are just too many other far more broken 3 drops.  I don't think it's good enough to build a deck around anymore.  Maybe as a sideboard card I probably wouldn't even go that far.
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KDenz81
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2005, 08:10:50 pm »

It's true that UD isn't a great 3 drop, however it's very unexpected.  Opponents are more likely to expect Doomsday, now that it's been Unrestricted.  Sure, Underworld Dreams is past it's prime and is no longer even in the top 10 deck builds.  But hey, the deck is fun to play and makes your opponents squirm especially if they do lots of card drawing.
That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Denz
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LotusHead
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2005, 11:49:58 pm »

I ran into a mostly powered Underworld Dreams deck in a tourney a few months ago (and lost to it...).

It was BRU like yours, but simply used Lightning Bolts and Psionic Blast and maybe even Incinerate to put extra pressure on (and to deal with pesky Welders or some such threats).

I simply ASSUMED that I would win against his resolved Underworld Dreams, as I was running Combo (Salvagers), but I was shocked to see him play Timetwister after I played MY Timetwister.

Anyways, the direct damage put me over the threshhold.  Plus, Lightning Bolts are cool and cost effective.
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Kountkidd
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fawkenclownshoes
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2005, 12:01:21 pm »

i won a cool game against a slaver deck....
the guy was at 10 he played a wheel of fortune....put himself down to 3
then he played a recall
and lost said he wasnt thinking....
thats okay it was my first big tournament playing unpowered mbc
and he stomped me the next two matches......
it was fun time though.

learned a hard lesson that day....mono black doiesnt work.....i was sad
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Razor
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2005, 12:41:20 pm »

Worthwhile discussion.

My quick 2 cents...

It's all about the Draw-7's, the good ones, not so much the Winds of Change, Tolarian Winds ones.  Diminishing returns is probably worth a look in addition to the usual: Tinker/Jar, Wheel, Windfall, Twister.  I've collected a pair of foil Trade Secrets just on the off-chance they might be good in my next UD build.

Black has a bunch of 'new' tutors (Spoils, Tainted, etc.) since I posted John Sexton's UD Primer a few years back.  Lemme know if you can't find it and I'll dust it off and repost it.  

Intuition/Replenish *might* be cute, too.

I think Unmask and Duress might be musts to get the Draw-7's out.  It will probably lose to Tendrils-speed decks unless it runs something like Pyrostatic Pillar.
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KDenz81
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2005, 11:13:33 am »

Current Deck List

Black

4X Underworld Dreams
4X Dark Ritual
2X Chains of Mephistopheles
2X Megrim
1X Demonic Tutor
1X Vampiric Tutor
1X Yawgmoth's Will

Blue

4X Force of Will
4X Brainstorm
4X Wheel and Deal
2X Counterspell
2X Stifle
1X Ancestral Recall (Proxied)
1X Time Walk (Proxied)
1X Mystical Tutor

Red

4X Lightning Bolt

Artifact

2X Anvil of Bogardan
1X Mox Saphire (Proxied)
1X Mox Jet (Proxied)
1X Mox Ruby (Proxied)
1X Black Lotus (Proxied)
1X Lotus Petal
1X Sol Ring

Land

4X Underground Sea
4X Polluted Delta
3X Volcanic Island
3X Badlands
2X Underground River
1X Bloodstained Mire

SB

4X Terminate
2X Planar Void
2X Annul
2X Rack and Ruin  
1X Memory Jar
1X Tinker
1X Timetwister
1X Time Spiral
1X Wheel of Fortune

Other possible side board options: Pyroblast and Words of War.
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yankeedave
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2005, 10:36:30 pm »

Anybody thought of the new desperate ritual for this deck to help speed the draw7s and the bolts? Just a suggestion.
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2005, 06:22:34 am »

Your lists look counter heavy.

Necropotence?

Like Razor said, Draw 7s are where it's at.  I'd add windfall for sure.
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Killertree
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2005, 10:10:23 pm »

You should add prosperity since it deals them damage and it lets you draw cards and its cheap.
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DaVincent168
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2005, 02:41:08 am »

I think prosperity is not that great in this deck, why not add in 1 stroke in main deck?
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Green Knight
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2005, 11:00:10 am »

Stroke and Prosperity are really to slow for this type of deck, you want spells with more of an impact.
Looking at Stroke the base casting cost is three before you even draw a card, compare that to Windfall, Tinker (for Jar), Wheel or Twister. I think I would prefer Wheel and Deal over this. Also you really don’t want Draw that target’s only one player (Ancestral excepted).
Now Prosperity does seem to have great synergy, however I really feel there are better options and this is not the right card for the deck. If only Prosperity were an Instant, that may change things. But for Sorcery type cards I feel it is best to stick with the Draw 7’s and bigger type effects, essentially more bang for your buck. The draw 7’s will give you more gas and win you the game.
Now I know you are not saying to replace the Draw 7‘s w/ Prosperity, but I really think it does not supplement the draw and main goal of the deck, it really just waters it down.
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KDenz81
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2005, 06:19:16 pm »

I have considered making some nasty revisions to this deck and nearly changing the entire idea of the deck.  After I ran up against Chains of Mephestophilies I decided to add that to my main deck along with Megrim, Anvil of Bogardan, and Wheel and Deal.

Why Chains?  
A: I hurts my opponent's draw spells. ie. Brainstorm, AK's, Ancestral, etc.
B: It has great Synergy with Dreams, Megrim, and Anvil

What does Chains do exactly for this deck?  
If you don't know what Chains does, how it works, or the method of my madness click here.

Sideboard options
I'd boards out most of my draw 7's for all players, Wheel of Fortune, Tinker, Jar, Timetwister, Spiral.  

So in game 1, my opponent would face my first combo, then in game 2 I'd board it out and side in all my draw 7's.  I might add Words of War to my Sideboard, so when I play a draw 7 with Chains on the table, I skip drawing and deal massive damage.

Let me know what you think as usual.
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Killertree
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2005, 10:24:11 pm »

Quote from: Green Knight
Stroke and Prosperity are really to slow for this type of deck, you want spells with more of an impact.
Looking at Stroke the base casting cost is three before you even draw a card, compare that to Windfall, Tinker (for Jar), Wheel or Twister. I think I would prefer Wheel and Deal over this. Also you really don’t want Draw that target’s only one player (Ancestral excepted).
Now Prosperity does seem to have great synergy, however I really feel there are better options and this is not the right card for the deck. If only Prosperity were an Instant, that may change things. But for Sorcery type cards I feel it is best to stick with the Draw 7’s and bigger type effects, essentially more bang for your buck. The draw 7’s will give you more gas and win you the game.
Now I know you are not saying to replace the Draw 7‘s w/ Prosperity, but I really think it does not supplement the draw and main goal of the deck, it really just waters it down.


By comparing mana, it does down to this


Each player drays 3 cards-which may be increased/

Target player draws a card.
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2005, 11:44:15 pm »

Orim's Chant and Abeyance are better than duress because of the lack of synergy with windfall.  Abeyance isn't that good against workshop though, but against other decks it's a time walk that allows you to get to three mana to cast your timetwister, wheel, or tinker.  I also think you should play a lot of lands to help protect the mana base assault.
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Malhavoc
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2005, 03:13:09 am »

A friend of mine worked in the past on a deck similar to this. He put in also some of these:

Shocker
1R (2), Creature - Insect 1/1
Whenever Shocker deals damage to a player, that player discards his or her hand, then draws that many cards.

It's quite nice, since it can do a winds of change against the opponent every turn. Plus, the cards aren't shuffled back in the deck, but discarded. This could be a problem for some combo decks, which could lose some important cards and have difficults setting up their hands. On the other hand, making the opponent discard cards could not be a good idea against some archetypes. BTW, It would also be nice together with megrim. Think about using megrim, it is nice powerful with cards like this, wheel of fortune, windfall and jar.
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2005, 01:18:43 pm »

Chains has always been my favorite deck to play.  Here's the build of it I have, although it could use a little help.
3 chain of mephistopholese
4 Megrim
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Memory jar
1 Time Twister
1 Time walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Underworld dreams
1 Balance
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Arcane Denial
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Intuition
2 Wrath of God
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Bloodstained MIre
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scrubland
4 Badlands
2 Plateau
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2005, 05:15:28 pm »

I used to play this deck type back when Dreams first became unrestricted, back in the Keeper and unrestricted FoF days of BBS.  Anyways, like some earlier people had posted, it's ALL about the draw 7's and getting them played ASAP.  Here was the Decklist I played back in the day, which honestly I do not think has had anything printed to help it out.  

Turbo Dreams version older than 1.

Draw (13)
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Timetwister
1 x Wheel of Fortune
1 x Windfall
1 x Tinker
1 x Memory Jar
3 x Diminishing Returns
4 x Impulse (better than brainstorm in lack of fetch lands)

Search (4)
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Crop Rotation

Disruption (4)
4 x Force of Will

Utility (5)
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Time Walk
3 x Helm of Awakening (pray you don't play Long LOL)

Kill (4)
4 x Underworld Dreams

Mana (19)
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Saphire
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Lotus Petal
1 x Chrome Mox (new addition, probably worth it)
3 x City of Brass
3 x Gemstone Mine
1 x Tolarian Academy
4 x Dark Ritual


I never liked Winds of Change, as you weren't actually drawing new cards, or getting a full hand of 7 9/10 times.  Even if your opponent was, it wasn't a "good" card compared to the D7's.  The only changes I might make is dropping one Diminishing Returns for one Tendrils of Agony.  Why play Bolts/Psionic Blast when one Dreams, a Draw 7 and a Tendrils does the same  Wink
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KDenz81
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2005, 02:17:03 am »

I've done a lot of thinking and considering of cards for this deck.  I talked my delema out with a long time friend and we disected my deck card by card and he asked why it was in there and if it really needed to be there.  Then made some suggestions as to replacements.

First off, what I'm going to cut from the deck and sideboard and why.

Cuts:

-2X Megrim: Why? Megrim is not a great secondary kill and is definately not a primary kill.  Megrim only deals damage when my opponent discards.  Thus, my opponent is only affected by Wheel of Fortune, Wheel and Deal, and Anvil of Bogardan.

-1X Vampiric Tutor: Why?  A: Vampiric Tutor costs me 2 life.  The only time I've really ever needed Vamp was for a draw 7 to save myself.  Mystical can dig up any draw 7 I run.  Demonic can dig up a Dreams or any other Utility card if I really need it at the time.

-1X Time Spiral: Why? Well Time Spiral is too expensive and if I can get it to go off it's incredible.  But if I get stuck with it in hand it's chewing up card space.

From Sideboard: -2X Terminate: Why? I only really need these for certain creatures, Plats or Welders mainly.  

I am also considering cutting the two Underground Rivers for two Gemstone Mines.  I don't use the Rivers often, mostly for colorless and only for colored mana if I really need it.  But I can only use the Mines 3 times and they're gone.

Cards to add to the deck and sideboard and why.

Add:

+2 Prosperity: Why? I weighed Prosperity against Brain Guyser and decided finally that Prosperity is clearly better.  Prosperity makes ME draw cards.  I don't have much of a draw engine in this deck.  Also, I've had Brain Guyser get Misdirected to my opponent.  This makes my opponent have to counter the Prosperity.  Also, I don't have to pay X until the spell resovles, thus I don't end up tapping out if it ends up getting countered.

+2 Cunning Wish: Why? More like why haven't I been running these?  Cunning Wish is a superior Utility card that can dig up any of 13 cards in my sideboard.

+2 Dragon Mage: Why? 1: Even though it's expensive it's a good secondary win condition.  2: It's a 5/5 Flying beat stick and blocker. 3: It has a built in Wheel of Fortune.

To Sideboard +2 Cranial Extraction: Why? Why not?  This is an excelent game two sideboard option.  Once I know what my opponent is running, I can put these in and target his key spells.

 
Current Deck List

Kill
(6)
4X Underworld Dreams
2X Dragon Mage (Secondary)

Combo Lock
(5)
2X Chains of Mephistopheles
2X Anvil of Bogardan
1X Wheel and Deal (1X Sideboard)

Search
(4)
2X Cunning Wish
1X Demonic Tutor
1X Mystical Tutor

Utility
(2)
1X Yawgmoth's Will
1X Time Walk (Proxied)

Draw
(7)
2X Prosperity
2X Winds of Change
1X Wheel of Fortune
1X Timetwister
1X Ancestral Recall (Proxied)

Disruption
(8)
4X Force of Will
4X Counterspell

Damage
(4)
4X Lightning Bolt

Mana
(28)
4X Underground Sea
4X Polluted Delta
3X Volcanic Island
3X Badlands
2X Underground River
1X Bloodstained Mire
1X Mox Saphire (Proxied)
1X Mox Jet (Proxied)
1X Mox Ruby (Proxied)
1X Black Lotus (Proxied)
1X Lotus Petal
1X Mana Crypt
1X Sol Ring
4X Dark Ritual

Total Cards: (64)

Sideboard
(15)
2X Terminate
2X Planar Void
2X Cranial Extraction
2X Stifle
2X Annul
2X Rack and Ruin
2X Pyroblast
1X Wheel and Deal
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Green Knight
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2005, 11:50:42 am »

No offence but listen I'm not gonna lie I don't like the direction the deck has taken.
Dragon Mage is a good fun card but the cc is huge we are talking 7 mana (5RR) here and two of it is red!

Also just for clarification on Prosperity  the casting cost of XU does require you to pay the X as part of the casting cast, this is not like Decree of Justice where you cycle then chose to pay for soldiers.

Lighting Bolt is one of my favorite cards but I really feel that you would be better suited w/ Duress so you can proactively stop them from countering your bombs.

Regarding the Anvil/Chains aspect of the deck, this is a nice little combo but it really distracts from the overall goal of the deck in my eyes. Above and beyond this you have devoted only 2 slots to each making it some what hard to get the combo rolling.
The deck is 64 cards, you need to drop 4 cards.

Also as you mentioned you are sorely lacking a draw engine I highly recommend cutting 2 dragon mages and 2 prosperities for 4 brainstorm’s. I’m not a fan of Winds of Change either, at the very leased I would make these 1 Tinker and 1 Memory Jar.

As far as the mana base having non-black mana as the only source really hurts. I strongly suggest you reconsider the Volcanic Islands. I really like the City of Brass here.

Hey if you just want to play casually and have fun that’s totally cool, but if you want to make this thing competitive please consider some of the suggestions I have made. You really do need more draw 7’s if you are going straight Underworld Combo.

Edit: At the very leased test out some of these suggestions and see how much faster it is.
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2005, 12:12:25 pm »

Instead of running the dragon mages, you might try running two shockers.  They're smaller but can hit the board much sooner in the game.  
If you're going to stick with the chains/anvil engine, I would suggest running scroll rack over the brainstorms.  I have to agree with Green Knight on the rest of his points though.  If you do decide to run with the cities of brass he suggested, you might try replacing a couple of the lightning bolts with vindicates.
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2005, 12:15:20 pm »

You know what, I really like the idea of Psy blasts, Bolts and even Incinerates in dreams, thats so cool, and can potentially take out welders. Ok now Slaver for example, rungs 8 counters, 4 of which are usable turn 0. The deck needs its draw engine to win and the combination of Chains AND Dreams is really nifty in my opinion.

This deck can possible be made viable if it combined the Chains/Dreams/Burn idea but I would highly reccoment Negators, which add pressure on another level, here you would have 4 sources of pressure: Megrim, Dreams, Negators, and even Chains to shut down the brokenness of slaver..lets face it, Tier 1 decks dont play junk..they need every card they DRAW and your disruption of that, however slight can be fatal.

Also, an idea I had is maybe incorporating 2 Cabal Ritual to help pump out that turn 1 Dreams.

In final conclusion, Negators alongside with the burn supplioed by Psy Blast, Incinerate and Bolts could be very very troublesome for the decks int oday's meta.
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2005, 01:00:06 pm »

Oh, my friend, you have some sadness in your deck.

First of all, Duress is an obvious Must-Have in your deck.  Running black and acceleration, it's a great turn 1 play if you don't get the ritual.

Second, stop running silly spells that draw and start running win conditions.  My friend has a dreams deck and recently paid me for my Legends Underground Dreams to put it in his deck.  His deck's win is:
4x Teferi's Puzzle Box
4x Sculpting Steel
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker.

All except Tinker can be paid for with Black, while Tinker can run with your blue.

And finally, take this suggestion to heart because it's the only way you will be competitive with Dreams, you should transition your build to blue/black only, and cut all your redness including Wheel.  Wheel is the only card worthy of Type 1 play for this deck from red, and this is because turn 1 should be Duress or ritual+dreams only.  If winds was a turn 1 play it would be fine, but your deck isn't constructed with the correct acceleration for a turn 1 winds and it can't be constructed for that play either.  That being said, you need to cut red.  If you really want red, cut blue and go straight combo red/black relying heavily on Duress and Hymn to force through your early threats.  But don't try to do everything at once, it's not pretty and makes your deck look really ugly.
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2005, 01:25:56 pm »

For anybody who is playing Prosperity...

you could be playing Fireball and get the same effect.

Teferi's Puzzle Box is also sub-par.  I would much rather run redundant draw7 effects.  The first things on my list to play, aside from the restricted ones, are Wheel and Deal, Winds of Change, and Diminishing Returns.

Unfortunately, like it has been said, I don't see this deck performing that well because it needs BBB before it starts going off, whereas something like Tendrils just needs BB2 after it has finished going off.  Perhaps it's just me, but would it not be strictly inferior kill condition in a draw7 deck?  

That aside, please do not run Lightning Bolt, Psionic Blast, or even Incinerate in a combo deck.  The idea is to play Dreams, then cast several draw7s all in the same turn until the opponent is dead.  A card that cannot help this strategy is a card that you should not play.  I don't see what a simple Lightning Bolt is going to do after a first turn Dreams.  Big whoop, now they're at 16. :\
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2005, 01:46:15 pm »

Teferi's Puzzle Box is not subpar, and I'll tell you why.

It is a win condition, can be played at any time, and draws you a countless number of cards as well as disrupting your opponent's strategy ESPECIALLY if he is playing control.  It's a must-counter even without a dreams, and is a card that makes the deck better.  It's what makes the dreams deck(aside from power and draw7 which are in limited supply), don't knock it until you've tried it.

As to your other statement, TPS is perfected and beautiful, that is not a topic of discussion here.  Please stick to the topic, nobody cares about TPS on this thread.  My friend has a $8,000 foiled/BB/AlphaBeta version of TPS he's very proud of, if you want to discuss TPS with him go ahead, I am pretty sure he won't change a card in it no matter how much you plead with him.  I leave him to TPS, and I have my fun elsewhere.
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2005, 02:46:47 pm »

Wow, thanks for all the feed back guys.  There were a lot of good points you made.  Dragon Mage is definately way too expensive and Shocker is a good option, but Hypie is even better.  

Definate changes after advice:

+4X Brainstorm.  Why did I even take them out in the first place?

-4X Bolts.  I need to draw cards to deal more damage than 3 and cutting a lot of red speeds up the deck.

+4X Duress.  These ensure my combo can go off.

-2X Winds of Change.  A sub par draw 7 that would only draw me 6 at best.

-2X Dragon Mage.  Costs way too much to be effective.

+2X Cunning Wish.  Awesome utility card.

-2X Megrim.  They are a good tek against Bazzar though.

+2X Puzzle Box.  It's a permanant version of Winds of Change that disrupts my opponent's hand as much as possible.  This combined with Duress is effective.

-2X Anvil of Bogardan.  The only downside to the Anvil is that my opponents get to choose the card they discard.

+2X Hypnotic Specter.  Incredible, Flyer, random discard.

-2X Chains.  The Chains combo is cool, however it definately disrupted the main goal of the deck and I found I was side boarding it out after game 1 several times.

-3X Volcanic Island.  Cutting most of red, except for the one Wheel will speed the deck up ten fold.  I could even afford to maybe even cut Ruby, since Red isn't a main color anymore.  Seas are the most important, followed by Badlands, then Rivers.  Gemstones, Salt Marsh, and City of Brass are also probable.  All three have their drawbacks, but get the job done in the end.  Salt Marsh might slow me down a turn, but they don't end up killing me slowly.  Same with the Rivers, but I could at least use them for colorless.

-1X Wheel and Deal.  Wheel and Deal is alright, it's an instant, and it forces my opponent to draw 7, but it only nets me 1 card.

+1X Windfall.  This is more superior to Wheel and Deal becase it will draw more cards for me.

The Tinker / Jar combo is awesome.  But it takes up more slots than it's worth.

I'd still like to keep Megrim in the deck because of Duress, Hypies, and my Wheels.  But I've trimed the deck down to 61 cards and I don't want to add in anything else.  They also don't fit well into my sideboard.  Perhaps I can ditch Annul for Megrims.  But then that would be one less answer I could Wish for.

Once again thanks for your advice.  If you have any other suggestions on these new changes, please feel free to comment.
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2005, 04:11:34 pm »

Quote from: warble
Teferi's Puzzle Box is not subpar, and I'll tell you why.

It is a win condition, can be played at any time, and draws you a countless number of cards as well as disrupting your opponent's strategy ESPECIALLY if he is playing control.  It's a must-counter even without a dreams, and is a card that makes the deck better.  It's what makes the dreams deck(aside from power and draw7 which are in limited supply), don't knock it until you've tried it.


Teferi's Puzzle Box was subpar 3 years ago, when I tested it.  It does not make the Dreams deck in anyway.

It does not kill them this turn, and in fact with Dreams it is at best a 3 turn clock, and at worst it does no damage to them whatsoever.  It allows the opponent to fix a poor draw (turn 5 lands into Tinker, Walk, Ancestral, etc), it costs 4 mana, it is an artifact, offers no real card advantage, and I would not counter Puzzle Box as a control player because I'll probably just end up drawing more counters off Puzzle Box anyway, or simply kill you because Puzzle Box let me dig for Will or some nonsense.

Trust me, it is a poor card to use.
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2005, 04:11:38 pm »

I'd still recommend shocker over the hippies, as well as replacing the 2 prosperities with the 2 megrims you removed.  I think with only running the two creatures, you're going to get more out of the effect that shocker/megrim/underworld dreams is going to give you with hippie in that slot.  Megrim will also work well with windfall and wheel and deal.  It's even better if you can manage to fit in the tinker and memory jar.
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