SCG writers-who will be premium?

[Mr. Fantazy]

I don't think anyone is protesting that the writers are getting compensated, hell you guys deserve compensation! I also don't think that SCG going pay to read is an overly large concern in and of itself.

The most glaring issue is the contrast between SCG and TMD, now that SCG has gone premium. I personally don't think I've ever posted on the SCG boards. If there is an article I want to comment about I, do it here. I also notice that most relevant discussion of SCG articles occurs here. Now how will this work? Those that can justify and afford to pay will have access to any information in the articles, while those who can't, won't. Again in and of itself this is not a bad thing, until you consider the relationship between the two sites.

When prominent members of TMD are writing articles for SCG premium how do the non premium members benefit from this supposed increase in information? They don't. Increasing the volume of information, then limiting access, does not result in a net increase to the community. How many times will premium writers hold back posts because what they would normally say is related to a past, current, or future article? In a roundabout way, will SCG determine much of what gets discussed here?

Right now there is a thread about a SCG premium article, over half the responses have nothing to do with the articles content, but instead deal with the question "what’s in the article?" It seems a faltering logic, to me. to suggest any increase in community knowledge.

Teams have their own boards to discuss "secret tech" and that’s fine. However, they don't post links on TMD to their forums and say "lets discuss this." nor should they.

Maybe that’s the solution. Keep links from SCG premium articles off TMD and let SCG use the bandwidth to promote discussing such things. Of course Zherbus will make any decisions regarding such things, and I am in no way saying such things must happen. There is a definite appearance of conflict of interest between the sites and I hope it all blows over soon.

@Hi-Val
Truthfully, I would rather see less articles and more posts from most of you guys, but that's just me.

[Cross]

Will Dr. Sylvan’s stats be premium? I feel if anything that would be the biggest loss to the format. If the statistics are limited to the point where only few people have access to what’s actually being played in the format, I feel that that would give an unfair advantage to the premium members.

If this question has been answered somewhere, my apologies, I tried to read both threads but they’re being updated constantly.

[Hi-Val]

If you're concerned that there will be problems disseminating information, I'll gladly post every one of my articles on TMD instead if you pay me what SCG would pay me for articles. I'm sure a lot of other writers would if someone wants to charitably subsidize writers for TMD.

don't flatter yourself, if I won't pay 8 cents a day for Steve, you certainly aren't worth the time.

quick question, would you want Mike Long posting adds for his eBay auctions?

-Like Steve, he makes money off it
-and it could contain good info (i.e., his SV deck, or something random) that at the very least could give some interesting insight into the format

And sure, anyone who bought the auction, and therefore got the tec, could discuss it. But anyone who didn't buy the auction, couldn't discuss the tec.

What Steve and other premium writers are doing is very similar to just that, and quite frankly it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I don't care if they do it, I just wish they wouldn't do it here.

I certainly can't, nor would I, demand that Steve's article/link be taken down even though it seems to violate TMD policy. Half the moderators here are Meandeck/friends, at least a few will be premium writers, not to mention the owner. I can understand if you all see this in a differnt light. But I don't think I'm out of line voiceing what I'm sure others are feeling.

Hi-Val, If you want to be childish and trite, meh, whatev.

I wasn't asking you for your damn money.

What's your solution, besides having cake and eating it too? Do you want these things discussed or not? Aren't you big on helping the format? I want to hear what you'd do. Something that allows writers to get paid, SCG to keep paying them and allows people to discuss these things where they'd like.

An interesting point of clarification too: Steve makes the same amount of money, no matter how many people read his articles. Mike Long makes more money when more people bid on his ebay auctions. Think of Steve posting a thread here like an author going to a bookstore for a signing, but in this case he makes no more money for every copy he sells. Does an author going to a bookstore anger you?

@Mr. Fantazy: I'd like to as well, but the allure of money and wide exposure is pretty strong. That, and when my team posts things here, we're usually flamed for some stupid reason or another. Being insulted by the people you want to help is pretty crappy, but that's the subject of another thread.

[nataz]

What's your solution, besides having cake and eating it too? Do you want these things discussed or not? Aren't you big on helping the format? I want to hear what you'd do. Something that allows writers to get paid, SCG to keep paying them and allows people to discuss these things where they'd like.

Sure, do it up, at SCG.

I'm frustrated with the fact that never before have I not been able to participate on TMD because I haven't paid. The moment Z asks for money for the information on TMD is the moment that I pay for it.

I always thought we were a community that worked together on ideas and concepts. We all have our teams, secrets and what not, but once on TMD it’s public.

An interesting point of clarification too: Steve makes the same amount of money, no matter how many people read his articles. Mike Long makes more money when more people bid on his ebay auctions. Think of Steve posting a thread here like an author going to a bookstore for a signing, but in this case he makes no more money for every copy he sells. Does an author going to a bookstore anger you?

No, I have a problem with advertising on TMD. In your example, the bookstore is SCG, not TMD. If you really can't see the difference between this and your example, then that, unfortunately, is your problem.

Anyways, once lots ‘o’ quotes start popping up in replies, you know it’s getting flamey. The only reason why I’m still typing honestly is because I am putting off a PHY test that I have to study for. I’m available for PM if you still don’t understand what I am trying to say. I’ll also be at evolution, and wouldn’t mind talking face to face either.

If you just disagree, then feel free to post or, or PM me, which ever.

[Smmenen]

What Steve and other premium writers are doing is very similar to just that, and quite frankly it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
.

Dude, this kills me.  I'm not doing anything different than I did before or what Oscar Tan has done for years.  I'm not charging - SCG is.

[SimpleHiker]

My question is how will premium tech be handled on TMD?

When a deck list gets posted premium on SSG does that mean we have to make all these efforts to beat around the bush and not repost the list here? What if the community wants to make comments on the deck or make some card changes then can the deck be posted? How much information from a SSG premium can be reprinted before it becomes taboo on TMD?

When someone picked up Long's SSvirus deck it was quickly copied and pasted on the manadrain forums, is this the precedence for SSG premium tech?

I have no problems paying for good articles, money makes the wheels go round. I am just dismayed on how this is going to affect threads on TMD.

[sorry for the topic switch, maybe this should be addresses in it's own thread before this questions become an issue]

sh

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Problem is Natz, SCG and TMD now have a symbiotic relationship.

TMDr's write VERY GOOD articles for SCG, and in return SCG uses the published articles to attract more attention to vintage scene. Obviously one of their motives is to make more money selling vintage singles, but a by product of that is them having to keep vintage in the spotlight.

They get users from TMD crossing over there reading articles, browsing deck archives, heh even buy a magic card or two =) and VICE VERSA

We benefit by having them post articels by vintage's finest which increase popularity of our format, spawns a greater interest by other businesses on a whole to have tournies... (local, SCG P9, other P9 tournies)

Like we depend on each other to mantain/improve the status of vintage as a whole.

Buying a premium account would only maintain/strengthen this relationship.

Another small point is that SCG isn't trying to make money of the situation, but they are trying to KEEP THEIR ARTICLES COMING!

You say that you would pay if Zherbus asked you to pay for TMD. In essence, buying a SCG premium acct. is like your supporting TMD, because we recieve said benefits here.

It might be hard to see the advantages instantly, but when you take a 2nd even 3rd look at the situation, you will understand what im trying to say.

[nataz]

@ The M.E.T.H.O.D

That was by far the best response I have heard.

[Machinus]

@ The M.E.T.H.O.D

That was by far the best response I have heard.

I agree. A few years ago, SCG didn't make a lot of mention of Type I. Now, they sponsor huge, regular tournaments for it, and TMD attends. The relationship between the two entities is undeniable at this point.

Think about it like this: Where would Type I be without those first two SCG tournaments? Where would this site be?

In case anyone cares, I haven't bought an account yet, and I am not positive that I will, but playing Vintage is something I take seriously, and this might be what I have to do to keep it alive.

The void in our format, where the attention and support of WotC is for every other format, requires us to do more than other magic players do. Anyone who has played Vintage for more than two years knows how different things are now. I don't think anyone wants to see this progress decay back into the archaic and random format it used to be.

[Avangel]

As a SCG premium member I can see the premium articles but would posting just the decklist  not the intesive "how to play" breakdown violate any agreements with TMG and SCG?

TMD user could see the list but not Smmenen's long and brain numbingly good guide on how to use it.

SCG should have premium sections of the messageboard for premium users to discuss premium articles uncoded too.

[Kasuras]

In my opinion:

-Lists are available for copying. Not only for the sake of the survival of vintage, because if just a certain number of people is able to get their hands on a list.. well you get it. But also because people just should not be able to own lists of cards.
-The articles themselves, with the reasoning and stuff, should be owned by SCG. Just like books, you can't just copy all that is said in a book.

However; this premium stuff will most definitely cause a strange kind of forum conversation..

Of course, I have no idea whether I'm right and perhaps SCG can own lists. There are a lot of law people on this site, so correct me if I'm wrong, and please add something if that is important.

I'm probably not going to buy such a premium status. I've read about every single article already and I think the next step towards my improval of magic is not reading or reasoning stuff but just playing tournaments, since that is what was lacking the past time. Oh, and I don't have money for it either.

[ump]

I am really tempted to start a poll (probably on SCG) of whether or not actually bought the premium service and why.  The reason is because it would be interesting to find out why people do or not buy this thing.  I have been narrowing down the options to the following.  I believe there is a limit of 10 choices to a poll, but I may be mistaken.  Let me know if I should do it or not (I created a forum account there this morning with the intentions of starting this poll).  Here is a preliminary choice of options, but I am still trying to refine the choices.

1) Yes.  I wanted to support the site because they support the community.
2) Yes.  I wanted to read the articles (even if I want the quality and/or quantity of articles to improve).
3) Yes.  Other reasons.  Please specify.
4) No.  There is not enough quantity of articles in the format(s) that I care about to justify the cost.
5) No.  There is not enough quality of articles to justify the cost.
6) No.  However, I would consider paying less for a subset of the articles that I actually do read (ie categories).
7) No.  I would like to buy it, but I cannot afford it.
8) No.  I would never pay to read any articles.
9) No. Other reasons.  Please specify.

[Smmenen]

I'm not going to continue to try to persuade people to get SCG premium or not unless they privately ask me to .

The decision is up to you so I am going to bow out of this conversation.  If you don't want it, fine; if you do, that's great.  My hope is that the quality of the articles is what will persuade people to subscribe as others have taken the time to read them in the first place.  

I will continue to link my articles to the mana drain as I always have and you are free to reply or not to reply.  For those of you who are worried that there won't be a place to talk about the articles - don't worry about that.  Plenty of people have already subscribed and I will talk about them as well.  

Stephen

[Methuselahn]

I just want to say that SCG going premium is all fine and dandy.  They gotta do what they gotta do.  The only thing I would ask is that TMD avoids posts that are created to provide a link to them.   First, Premium members are not going to need a link.  They know the articles are there, they pay the money to get them.  Second, we can't quote things from those articles or copy/paste.  Debates about those articles' issues should stay confined to SCG.

that's it,  had to get that out.

[Smmenen]

Sorry, but I'm most definately going to link the articles here.  People should be aware of the articles i'm writing and there should also be a space here for people to talk about the issues raised in them (at least for the people who paid to read the article).  Part of the reason for such posts to make sure that people are aware of hte articles out there.  It would be totally assinine not to create a link to a cool t1 article, even if not everyone can read it.

[Hi-Val]

I think that we're going to see an Announcement From On High about SCG, posting links, quoting articles, cutting/pasting, etc. in the near future.

[Whatever Works]

People can say what they like about relations with SCG, etc... But TMD had a relationship before with them, and it didnt cost money. Some people will be willing to hack up the cash for articles, and others wont... You can claim the fee is worth it but alot of players will not pay for information that should be free to a growing format... It doesnt make sense that people should have to hack up cash for the most expensive format to compete, but then on top of that throw in more money just so they can have a good understanding of the metagame so they can compete??? It will hold back the Vintage format as a whole no matter how you put it...restricting the distribution of knowledge to a format that is trying to grow is contradictory, and befuddling...

@SCG writers
I have no problems with you guys at all... I love your articles and you do deserve whatever ammount of money you get paid. (though CHA1N5 does put up terrible threads constantly about what is to broken etc.)

I am irritated with the charge that SCG put up, because it is making enough money on adds, and selling cards... This is pretty sad as well because with all the money that is coming in they have to make more... Last time I checked the TMD was free... Had no Advertisements... and was run almost entirely on donations!

[Mr. Fantazy]

Sorry, but I'm most definately going to link the articles here.

That's a pretty bold statement, considering the owners of the two sites haven't responded yet.

People should be aware of the articles i'm writing and there should also be a space here for people to talk about the issues raised in them (at least for the people who paid to read the article).

One would think SCG would notify their subscribers of premium articles. I have to hand it to them though, between saying they're losing money while moving into a new PTQ size store, and charging for articles while getting other sites to eat the bandwidth for discussions, since they are not providing forum space for these things on their site (at least to the best of my knowledge), they remain calm, cool, and collected.

I think that we're going to see an Announcement From On High about SCG, posting links, quoting articles, cutting/pasting, etc. in the near future.

This will be most welcome. Once the man speaks we can all either deal with it or .......

[Hi-Val]

This is the thing though, SCG WASN'T making enough money on cards and ads to support the writers. TMD is run largely on donations; if you feel charitable, give a little money to SCG, and they'll send you cards or articles for your donation! : )

[Smmenen]

Sorry, but I'm most definately going to link the articles here.

That's a pretty bold statement, considering the owners of the two sites haven't responded yet.

People should be aware of the articles i'm writing and there should also be a space here for people to talk about the issues raised in them (at least for the people who paid to read the article).

..

You are completely missing the point.  The question at issue about which they are to respond to is to what extent beyond the usual blurb should content from premiums articles be copied onto the mana drain.

There is not one good reason not to LINK articles - which is an ENTIRELY different point you somehow seemed to miss.

a) people here will be aware of them.  Even if they aren't premium members, they can see the title, click the link and see the blurb and decide whether they want to subscribe at that point.

b) this is the mana drain - I have always linked articles here as has everyone else.  It will focus any threads that might independently start about the articles (and they usually do).

It is one thing to bitch and moan about how you can't stand premium or won't spend the money.  It is an ENTIRELy different matter to say that I shouldn't link the articles because you don't want to have to see it.  Your desire not to see it does not justify censorship and the mere suggestion is out of bounds.

[Zherbus]

Smmenen and any other Premium writers may continue to open threads on their articles. Hell, you may just get most of the same information out of those threads.

[Mr. Fantazy]

Steve,
Stop the bullshit. I'm not the government so therefore, I can't censor anyone. I do not run this site so I have no say in what content is posted and what isn't. Don't flatter yourself, you are far from being important enough for me to bitch and moan about. I never said I can't stand premium or that I wouldn't spend the money. Actually, I said I was undecided, of course that wasn't dramatic enough for your argument.

As for sidestepping issues, you sir are a master. You cleverly deflect an issue, twist it around to another point, leaving just enough content of the original issue, to seem like you actually addressed said issue. You will make a fantastic lawyer!

Truthfully, if I don't want to see a link I simply won't click it. It has nothing to do with what I want, and I would hope your intelligent enough to know that. Just because you seem unwilling to accept that several of the TMD community members, both basic and full, see this as an issue, doesn't make it nonexistant.

Oh well, this is getting very close to a ranting flame, or maybe it's already there. Either way Steve, I'm sure it will all work out, it usually does.

Shawn

[Cross]

Before the thread gets locked, does anyone know if Dr. S's results are going to be premium?

I think this is more of a legitimate topic to discuss rather than the current banter. If they are, it would deal directly with the dissemination of information to everyone, and very much create a system of have's and have not's.

[Mr. Fantazy]

As far as I know, no ones mentioned the good Dr.'s articles. They could still be in negotiations.

[dandan]

In the real world you often have to pay for things that are in demand. I can't see why anyone can reasonably object to a private web site offering you many Magic articles for free and the option of purchasing the right to access many more. I can see no reason to object to SCG paying the writers of the articles for their time. I have no objection to SCG making a commercial decision about how to fund their internet marketing of card sales.

Listen people. We have no right whatsoever to the information that other people gain by extensive playtesting, research, statistical analysis, etc. Appreciate what information you receive. Say thank you occasionally. Contribute yourself (note that often, especially in my case, the best contribution is knowing when not to post anything!)

If we have discussions here at TMD about Premium articles, I am sure that non-subscribers (like me) will accept the fact that it is harder to follow the topic well without reading the article but a decent discussion will go over most of the key points anyway. It might be more of a issue with subscribers getting annoyed at non-subscribers for asking questions that have already been answered in the article, although it is hardly uncommon for such questions at present with articles that are clearly visible.

[Matt]

There is not one good reason not to LINK articles - which is an ENTIRELY different point you somehow seemed to miss.

On the other hand, it would be nice if you could provide a little one- or two-sentence excerpt - a blurb - to go along with the link, like Rakso once did. In fact that would serve as a tagline, and may generate more interest (and thus more subscribers) - giving the public a glimpse at what they're missing is very enticing.

[Kasuras]

Listen people. We have no right whatsoever to the information that other people gain by extensive playtesting, research, statistical analysis, etc. Appreciate what information you receive. Say thank you occasionally. Contribute yourself (note that often, especially in my case, the best contribution is knowing when not to post anything!)

Although my reply will obviously spark the discussion about team secrecy and witholding decklists; I don't think the decklists in those articles should be witheld too.

Of course, in tournaments you may give the argument that only a couple of people know about it which is your team. (still, what are you going to do if someone gets to see your deck due to cranial extraction and writes down the cards, and posting the list afterwards?)

But this is something completely different; the premium members are not a team. I think at least the decklists in such articles should be known, if only the final list. If you don't agree with me on this, please state why you think people have the right to own lists of cards.

[Matt]

If you don't agree with me on this, please state why you think people have the right to own lists of cards.

Because they made them? Why should the author of a book "own" the list of words that comprise the book? C'mon, anyone could have put those words together.

[jpmeyer]

I don't think that there will be a problem with linking.  If you look at Star City's forums, anybody can go to the article feedback forum to see the talkback threads for Premium articles.  While I've seen a bunch of comments here like "Why would someone who can't read an article want to see these comments?" the very obvious reason is because it can let you make as more clear decision now that you've calmed down from your kneejerk reaction to the notion of having to pay for something that you didn't have to before.  You can use the threads to find out from people that do have the service whether or not they're satisfied with what they are paying for.

[Smmenen]

There is not one good reason not to LINK articles - which is an ENTIRELY different point you somehow seemed to miss.

On the other hand, it would be nice if you could provide a little one- or two-sentence excerpt - a blurb - to go along with the link, like Rakso once did. In fact that would serve as a tagline, and may generate more interest (and thus more subscribers) - giving the public a glimpse at what they're missing is very enticing.

I will do that - and I usually do.  I didn't for the Primer becuase I thought it was self-evident.  Thanks for the suggestion.