[Article] Meandeck Tendrils Primer, Part One

[Zherbus]

I don't know about Stephens other games, but mine went by much faster. In fact, JP and my mirror match was the shortest feature match of the day.

[jpmeyer]

I also think that I finished round 1 faster before anyone else did.

[dicemanx]

As a judge I almost certainly would have given a caution and, barring improvement, subsequent warning, for the length of time taken between spells and so forth.

OK, this is a very interesting issue.

Should there be provisions made for the type of deck(s) involved in a match as far as the amount of time allotted for each turn? Obviously there is a huge difference between the time required to think when playing Meandeck SX well compared to, say, Food Chain Goblins, but should such things be taken into consideration? Can a judge justify having a player spending 5-10 minutes on a very complex play, even if it can be demonstrated that the play will essentially decide the game?

On a related issue, how much time can you allot for the resolution of a single spell? The one card that I specifically have in mind is arguably the single most complex spell to resolve "properly" in the game - Lim Dul's Vault. While quite often Vaulting is relatively straightforward, and we usually use short-cut, assumption-filled approaches in its resolution, the proper way to play the card actually involves doing numerous calculations and stacking cards in a precise order. In fact, it would be possible to write an entire primer on that card alone. Now if you were to whip out a sheet of paper and start doing some calculations during a match I'm sure that many would find that objectionable, much the same way that people are finding it objectionable that Smmenen spends 10 minutes calculating probabilites while resolving a Brainstorm.  His reasons are entirely justified, but the question is if it can be deemed acceptable to spend so much time on a play if decisions are mathematically determined rather than based on intuition. Any thoughts?

[Toad]

His first turn is not acceptable. The complexity of the situation is NOT relevant there.

There is NO difference between thinking 10mn about a game winning Brainstorm and thinking 10mn about if you should fetch your Unglued basic Island or your APAC one.

[JACO]

His first turn is not acceptable. The complexity of the situation is NOT relevant there.

There is NO difference between thinking 10mn about a game winning Brainstorm and thinking 10mn about if you should fetch your Unglued basic Island or your APAC one.

In regards to the infamous 10-20 minute Brainstorms and the like, here are the relevant rules straight from the DCI Universal Tournament Rules:

43. Slow Play
Players must take their turns in a timely fashion regardless of the complexity of the play situation. Playing too slowly or stalling for time is not acceptable. If a judge determines that a player is playing excessively slowly at any point during the tournament, the responsible player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

24. Midgame Shuffling Time Limit
A reasonable time limit will be allowed for all shuffling and deck-searching that occurs during a game. Player should be allowed  thirty seconds to conduct simple searches; more complicated searches may be allowed more time at the judge’s discretion. If a judge determines that a player’s shuffling time is excessive, that player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines. Shuffling requirements specified in Section 21 apply.

21. Shuffling
Shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen. Regardless of the method used to shuffle, players’ decks must be sufficiently randomized. Each time players shuffle their deck, they must present their deck to their opponent for additional shuffling and/or cutting. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than pass that duty to their opponent, this request will be honored at a judge’s discretion. By presenting their decks to their opponents, players are stating that their decks are correct, legal, and sufficiently randomized...
Once players shuffle and/or cut their opponents’ decks, the cards are returned to their original owners. If the opponent has shuffled the player’s deck, that player may make one final cut.

23. Pregame Time Limit
Before each game, competitors have three minutes to shuffle their decks and present them to their opponents for additional shuffling and/or cutting. This three-minute period includes sideboarding, if applicable, but does not include shuffling an opponent’s deck or resolving any mulligans—if the DCI Floor Rules for the game in question specifically allow mulligans. Any mulligans or shuffling of opponents’ decks must be done in a timely manner before games begin. Shuffling requirements specified in section 21 apply during these steps.

Judging by DCI UTR rules 43 and 24 specifically, a 10 minute Brainstorm would be illegal, unless a judge determines that you need to use 20% of the total match time allotted to put back 2 cards on top of your library. You are expected to use up to 30 seconds for searches, so even using more than 1 minute for a Brainstorm is outrageous. If you're going to be playing a deck like TPS or MeanDeath SX where every decision is important, than you'd better know what you're doing with the deck going into the tournament. Tournaments are not your testing grounds, and should not afford you the time to dick around contemplating somewhat complex decisions. In other words, get used to calculating odds on the fly, just like Poker pros do.

[Saucemaster]

You are expected to use up to 30 seconds for searches, so even using more than 1 minute for a Brainstorm is outrageous. If you're going to be playing a deck like TPS or MeanDeath SX where every decision is important, than you'd better know what you're doing with the deck going into the tournament. Tournaments are not your testing grounds, and should not afford you the time to dick around contemplating somewhat complex decisions. In other words, get used to calculating odds on the fly, just like Poker pros do.

A few points.

1) TPS is not at all similar to Meandeck Tendrils in terms of complexity.  They're in nothing like the same league.  This is not a disparaging comment on TPS--far from it, in fact.  All other things being equal, simpler is better.  This is irrelevant to the point being made, of course, but I was so dumbfounded at seeing the two grouped together that I just had to say something.

2) Even assuming that your "deck searching" reference is relevant to the argument at hand, it's not just a matter of calculating odds.  It's a matter of combining odds calculations with three or four lines of play out to about 7 plays, and keeping them all in your head at once in order to weigh them against each other.  It's like combining Poker and Chess.  And it *will* take more than a minute.  Familiarity has nothing to do with it.  You can do it faster, but you will often--possibly even a majority of the time--be making suboptimal plays if you do.

This isn't meant as a defense of slow play.  This is actually a huge part of what I take Smmenen to mean when he says that the deck is too complex to realistically play in a tournament.  So I think dicemanx's question is an interesting one.  Obviously a player can't take an indefinitely large amount of time deciding a play, but where should the limit be?  And should we be willing to bend a little for decks that are sometimes ridiculously complex?

I think that we should be willing to bend a little bit; if my deck is likely only going to take five or six turns total, in a match, then obviously I'm going to need more time per turn than someone whose deck is predicated on winning some time around turn 6 or 7 in each game.  On the other hand, yes, fifteen minute Brainstorms are absurd.

3) In Poker, you can call for time when making a tough decision, and take quite a while to make it.  If you did it constantly, you'd probably get in trouble, but five minutes, while annoying, is not that strange.

[the Luke]

Obviously a player can't take an indefinitely large amount of time deciding a play, but where should the limit be?  And should we be willing to bend a little for decks that are sometimes ridiculously complex?

I think that we should be willing to bend a little bit; if my deck is likely only going to take five or six turns total, in a match, then obviously I'm going to need more time per turn than someone whose deck is predicated on winning some time around turn 6 or 7 in each game.  On the other hand, yes, fifteen minute Brainstorms are absurd.

I asked one of these questions in #mtgjudge yesterday.  I asked how long is a reasonable time before calling a judge, and while they couldn't answer hard and fast, they all thought that five minutes was too long.

And I'm absolutely against bending the rules to allow more time because one player is playing a "harder deck".  For a start, there's not really any evidence a priori that you're going to win earlier.  What you're really saying is: "I play such and such deck, so I deserve more time to think".  Why is that fair?  It'd only be fair if we used chess clocks, and those are just not suitable to 99% of M:tG games.

Anyway, there is no excuse for holding priority for five minutes without putting a spell on the stack.  If your deck is too hard for you to play in a timely manner, then don't play it.

Finally, whether you're playing Smmenen or Zherbus or Kowal or some kid, just call a judge if you think they're playing too slowly.  Otherwise they have no incentive at all to speed up their play, and you'll be the one who looks foolish if you get angry with them.

-Luke

[Saucemaster]

For a start, there's not really any evidence a priori that you're going to win earlier.

There's no evidence a priori that you're going to win at all.    But without getting into a debate about transcendental idealism and how Kant relates to Magic: The Gathering, can we admit here that, in the vast majority of cases, people playing decks like Meandeck Tendrils or Belcher are going to have won or lost the game in vastly fewer turns than the people playing the Control Slaver mirror?  I mean obviously there will be exceptions to this, but we all know it's true.  You're not asking for more time to think than your opponent, you're asking for the same amount of time to think.  It's just that you're borrowing against your future time to think, since you have to do all your thinking in one turn (whereas most of your opponents get to spread it out over anywhere between three to ten).

As for fairness, I don't think it's fair to tell someone taking their make-or-break turn, one of the four or five they'll play all match, that their five minute Brainstorm is just the same as a Tog player's five minute first-turn Brainstorm.  However I also recognize that fairness has fuck all to do with it, and until there actually *are* chess clocks in Magic (that would be so cool if it was feasible), neither option is going to be entirely fair.  I'm just saying, cut the combo players a little bit of slack.  They're working harder for their wins than we are (I say "we" because Lord knows I'm never playing a deck as difficult as Meandeck Tendrils in a tournament again).

It is interesting, though, that a number of judges all agreed that five minutes was too much.  If judges can come to some form of consensus, then at least there appears to be some sort of general sense of what's appropriate.

[JACO]

You are expected to use up to 30 seconds for searches, so even using more than 1 minute for a Brainstorm is outrageous. If you're going to be playing a deck like TPS or MeanDeath SX where every decision is important, than you'd better know what you're doing with the deck going into the tournament. Tournaments are not your testing grounds, and should not afford you the time to dick around contemplating somewhat complex decisions. In other words, get used to calculating odds on the fly, just like Poker pros do.

1) TPS is not at all similar to Meandeck Tendrils in terms of complexity.  They're in nothing like the same league.  This is not a disparaging comment on TPS--far from it, in fact.  All other things being equal, simpler is better.  This is irrelevant to the point being made, of course, but I was so dumbfounded at seeing the two grouped together that I just had to say something.

2) Even assuming that your "deck searching" reference is relevant to the argument at hand, it's not just a matter of calculating odds.  It's a matter of combining odds calculations with three or four lines of play out to about 7 plays, and keeping them all in your head at once in order to weigh them against each other.  It's like combining Poker and Chess.  And it *will* take more than a minute.  Familiarity has nothing to do with it.  You can do it faster, but you will often--possibly even a majority of the time--be making suboptimal plays if you do.

If you are playing TPS correctly and efficiently, some games that would seem unwinnable can be won with the correct or perfect play, and these situations are just as complex as MeanDeck SX resolving a Brainstorm. Resolving a Brainstorm, Chain of Vapor, or Gifts Ungiven in TPS is often a very complex play, and this is what I was comparing about the two decks. To ignore this demonstrates a lack of playtesting or truly understanding all of the tricks that are possible with TPS. This is probably one of the reasons it goes largely ignored in America. What turn a complex play, or series of possible plays occurs is irrelevant to the argument.

I would argue that just because a player or team argues that a certain deck requires 'complex decisions' throughout the turn or match, this does not warrant an extension of time to resolve a spell. Any team XYZ will always tout a deck as hard or complex to play, and think they should have some special rules apply to them or their playing of a given deck, but this thinking is flawed. In a tournament setting, the rules stipulate how much time you are given, and this can only be extended with prior consent from a judge. I'm not going to cut anyone any slack in a tournament, just because they decide to pilot whatever combo deck is 'hot' at the moment, rather than just beating with Juggernauts or Welding in a Mindslaver. Your deck choice does not afford you special treatment.

3) In Poker, you can call for time when making a tough decision, and take quite a while to make it.  If you did it constantly, you'd probably get in trouble, but five minutes, while annoying, is not that strange.

Actually, in tournament Poker (which is what I was referring to, as that draws the closest comparison to tournament Magic) you are not given all the time you want. You are expected to take your turn and announce your actions in a quick manner. Most tournaments have a time limit for each player's turn, and that is why you are allowed to call 'time' in certain instances. You are not allowed to do it for every hand. In online tournaments your time limit is much more strict and regimented, and every player can see it on their screen. Not to get too off topic, but the best players (Howard Lederer or Gus Hansen, for example) seamlessly calculate the odds very quickly in their head during play, and this is one of the major reasons why they consistently do well.

[Sauron]

Interesting to see I sparked off some discussion on this one.

In regards to what people have raised:

Yes the floor rules are quite explicit about 'regardless of the complexity of the play situation', however some flexibility should be applied. This isn't drawing extra cards, misrepresenting a spell, or some other infringement thats largely black and white. Some regard to the game state and complexity should be allowed,  and I'd agree with 5 minutes being a reasonably absolute maximum.

Generally though I'd be more stringent than that. A friend I judge with went to last years worlds, the head judge there instructed them that decisions about land drops, phases of play, declaration of attackers, resolving spells and so forth should generally take no longer than a minute.

EDIT: As a judge and player I'd second the advice given above - if you think your opponent is playing slow call a judge. More than that, call one early in the round.

I've been called to make a ruling about slow play several times when the round clock is about to run down, at that point I can almost never back the complainant since without time to observe the match in progress it all boils down to "I said - he said". Don't risk drawing/losing a round because your opponent ran you out of time.

[Into The Silence]

I just figured I'd chime in to let everyone hear some first-hand experience opposed to watching Steve take his turn on video.

I played against Steve in round 5 of SCG III.  He was playing Doomsday and on his first turn he Brainstormed.  Fifteen minutes later he passed turn.  Of course, naturally, I went on to lose this game.  The second game went quickly with me winning.  During game three I am in position to swing for lethal damage next turn but Steve Tendrils me for just enough to stay alive resulting in a match draw.

At the time of the Brainstorm, I did not think twice about how much time Steve was consuming until after the match.  I did not think to call a judge over.  But when I made top 8 and saw that Steve was in the same bracket as me I talked to a judge and told him about how long the Brainstorm took.  So when we played out our top 4 match Steve was thinking for a while and then the judge told him to speed it up.  Immediately after that Steve makes his play and then messed up which caused him that game.

So I do not know if Steve's mind was clouded with too many insane plays or if he judge telling him to hurry up actually caused him to miscalculate.

But anyways, that is how I handled the situation.  Fortunately I was able to still make top 8 after the draw and exact my revenge.  

[Zherbus]

*Sigh* Another thread ruined. I'll clean it later.