My new T4 Stack

[doomhed]

Well, as I have never Built one before I am looking for some input on my T4 stack. I tried to make use of as many playable T4 cards as I could think of. I am not quite sure how many creatures I should have in here, but I have a feeling I am going to need a few dozen more.


GB= Gold bordered/Champ deck Version
(  )= Not in deck yet, going in when I get more sleeves

Land-

Volrath’s Stronghold GB

Artifact-

Pentavus
Bosh, Iron Golem
Talon of Pain
Barbed Wire-- might get cut soon
Skull Catapult
Aether Vial
Heliophial
Whispersilk Cloak
Aladdin’s Ring
Lightning Greaves
Tower of Fortunes
Tower of Champions
Baton of Courage
Reito Lantern
Spawning Pit
Sun Droplet
Darksteel Gargoyle
Death-Mask Duplicant
Scroll Rack GB
Grindstone GB
Powder Keg GB
Wand of Ith
Rocket Launcher
Book of Rass- might be cut soon
Nevinyrral’s Disk GB
Cursed Scroll GB
Phyrexian Processor GB
Masticore GB
(Pit Trap)
(Leonin Bola)
(Mask of Memory)

Gold/Split Cards-

Fire/Ice GB
Life/Death (for Death)
Illusion/Reality
Spite/Malice
Night/Day
Order/Chaos
Stand/Deliver

Fires of Yavimaya GB
Psychatog GB
Spiritmonger GB
Sivitri Scarzam
Nebuchadnezzar
Johan
Lady Orca
Pavel Maliki
Ebony Treefolk
Minotaur Illusionist
Cinder Shade
Kjeldoran Frostbeast
Hunting Kavu
Giant Trap-Door Spider
Malicious Advice
Rith’s Charm
Hymn of Rebirth
Cauldron Dance
Consume Strength
(Captain’s Manuever)
(Terminate)
(Recoil)

Black-

Hatred GB
Rapid Decay GB
Chainer’s Edict GB
Diabloc Edict GB
Persecute GB
Recurring Nightmare GB
Corpse Dance GB
Spirit of the Night GB
Crypt Angel GB (this card is sooo sick)
Phyrexian Plaguelord GB
Nekrataal GB
Duh
The Fallen
Cursed Ronin
Nezumi Graverobber
Wall of Shadows
Havok Demon
Bane of the Living
Phyrexian Reclamation
Rend Spirit---Prob getting cut
Rend Flesh
Hideous Laughter
Soulless Revival
Ragged Veins
Pull Under
Echoing Decay
Scrounge
Bottomless Vault
Dark Banishing
Smother
Dance of Shadows
Nights Whisper
Terror
Murderous Spoils
(Swat)
(Misery Charm)
(Reckless Spite)
(Gravedigger)
(Syphon Soul)
(Phyrexian Gargantua)
(Norritt)
(Ghastly Demise)
(Agonising Demise)
(Urborg Uprising)
(Annihilate)
(Zombie Boa)

Blue-

Tradewind Rider GB
Submerge GB
Mystical Tutor GB
Upheaval GB
Seal of Removal GB
Counterspell GB
Man-o’-War GB
Double Header
Number Crunch
Spell Counter
Looming Hoverguard
Plasma Elemental
Magus of the Unseen
Deep Spawn
Quicksilver Dragon
Mistblade Shinobi
Toils of Night and Day
Fact of Fiction
Regress
Consuming vortex
Mystic Restraints
Abduction
Thoughtbind
Juxtapose
Remove Soul
Compulsion
Squelch
Boomerang
Minamo’s Meddling
Jushi Apprentice
Dematerialise
Repel
Flash of Insight
Clone
Assert Authority
Soothsaying

Green

Verdant Force GB
Tangle GB
Blastoderm GB
Uktabi Orangutan GB
Thornscape Battelmage GB
Kavu Chameleon GB
Saproling Burst GB
Survival of the Fittest GB
Name Dropping
Phantom Centaur
Creeping mold
Revalation
Ferocious Charge
Stand Together
Elvish Farmer
Orochi Eggwatche /Shidako, Broodmistress
Viridian Shamen
Kashi-Tribe Reaver
Matsu-Tribe Decoy
Thallid Devourer
Vine Kami
Tangle Spider
Bloodscent
(Nemata, Grove Guardian-Foil)
(Caller of the Claw-Foil)
(Planeswalker’s Fury-Foil)
(Hunting Pack- Foil)
(Gargantuan Gorilla)
(Recycle)

Red

Hammer of Bogerdan GB
Thunderscape Battlemage GB
Flametongue Kavu GB
Obliterate GB
Urza’s Rage GB
Firestorm GB
Convulsing Licid
Goblin Taskmaster
Goblin Lore
Form of the Dragon
Crushing Pain
Wildfire Emissary
Eron the Relentless
Avarax
Firestorm Pheonix
Hanabi Blast
Rain of Rust
Bind With Anger
Fling
Grab the Reins
Threatren
Incite War
Searing Touch
(Slice and Dice)
(Ryusei, the Falling Star)

White

Cloudchaser Eagle GB
Worship GB
Parallax Wave GB
Abeyance GB
Wrath of God GB
Cataclysm GB
Staunch Defenders GB
Taj-Nar Swordsmith
Cage of Hands
Otherworldly Journey
Vanquish
Blinding Beam
Reciprocate
Blessed Breath
Ethereal Haze
Purge
Candles’ Glow
Arrest
Test of Faith
Disenchant
Swords to Plowshares
Abu Ja’Far
Nagao, Bound by Honor
Empyrial Armor
Call to Glory
Loxodon Mystic
Silverstorm Samurai
Illumination
Soul Nova
(Humility)
(Sacred Mesa)
(Karmic Justice)
(Testament or Faith)

EDIT:::
Found some stuff in another box
Ancestral Recall (Proxy, duh, look at all the GB shit)
Savage Twister
Darigaaz's Charm
Dromar's Charm
Reviving Vapors
Essence Vortex
Brawn
Snarling Undorak
Tempting Licid
Shrink
Beast Attack
Fanatical Fever
Krosan Reclamation

[Nefarias]

Well, I don't have time to comment on everything, but I'll start from the top and maybe I'll get back to the rest later. My first question would be whether or not you've played with this and weeded out what isn't working yet. Every stack can work so much differently, that something situational like Pyroclasm or something could be awesome in one and terrible in another. So, I'll try to look at this objectively, but it's hard to judge cards, and especially removal, by just looking at the list. Anyway:

Land: That's fine. If you can find them, other good ones are Kor Haven, Maze of Ith, Winding Canyons, Yavimaya Hollow, and Boseiju.

Artifacts: Talon of Pain seems worse than even Rod of Ruin. Subversion is better than Barbed Wire. Wand of Ith is actually pretty cool. Rocket Launcher is probably too good, especially since the power level of the stack overall seems to be average at best. Try Door to Nothingness. Book of Rass looks really bad. Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't even that great. Greed is slightly better as it is harder to remove. Leonin Bola looks really weak. Why not Icy Manipulator or something (or Crowd Favorites in white)?

Gold/Split: I'm not a fan of the Vanilla Legends, even if they are cool. Cinder Shade is awesome. Rith's Charm is the crappiest of the Charms, and the only one I don't use. Hero's Reunion is "meh."

That's all the time I have right now. One thing I need to say about the other colors though--Nemata, Grove Guardian is sickly. Much better than Fireball, in my opinion, and probably the best token generator. I love that people aren't afraid of firebreathers and other infinites, but that may be a bit much.

[doomhed]

See, rocket launcher has to wait a turn before you can activate it, so it makes it balanced, especially with all the ways my stack has to kill it.
Also, I did not happen to see an icy floating around in my box, and bola can be used many more times a turn. all the "fireball" creatures are the reason there is such a high concentration of creature removal and bounce in my deck. I like random insanity, and kinda liked having the stupid vanilla legends in there just because they will never see any play otherwise.

[Pern]

Ancestral proxy?
If you're going to proxy, Ancestral's kinda weak.
Opportunity's strictly better.
Arcanis does it every turn.
Whispers Of The Muse can draw as many cards as there are players,
every time around.

[doomhed]

I cannot bring myself to proxy cards that cost under $100. I will just find copies somehwere in my collection. those are all great additions.

[Nefarias]

Okay, I'm back. Before I continue, I'd like to address some of your responses. I realize Rocket Launcher has "summoning sickness," but if it does indeed survive to your upkeep, everyone's dead. I can't think of a single way to stop it, not even Captain's Maneuver, Willbender, or Stifle affects. Door has a very similar effect, but only kills one person and is Stifle-able. If you're okay with that, than to each his own, but it seems a bit crazy. Leonin Bola is still really bad. It can only tap multiple creatures during your turn, so the only purpose that way would be an Alpha Strike. The problem is, you just tapped all your creatures to tap theirs. Maybe Icy wasn't the best solution, but how about Flood? Or Insurrection? Also, I'll try to keep in mind that you're working with a limited cardpool.

Black: If you're not afraid to play so many firebreathers, why not Enrage, Howl from Beyond, or Blazing Shoal over Hatred? The Fallen is cool, but weak, and Shivan Gorge is better. Echoing Decay can't possibly be that great. You have Night's Whisper in their before sooo many strictly better cards, the least of which is plain old Inspiration. Misery Charm is very limited.

Blue: The general concensus was that while the Gotcha! cards are very powerful, they make playing unfun because it encourages people not to talk. Your counterspell count looks low, and doesn't have the bomb ones (Decree of Silence, Spelljack, and Desertion, all of which are pretty much junk rares.)

Green: Cards whose activated abilities can be reused infinitely are cool, but how often will Kavu Chameleon's color change matter? There's no reason why anyone would counter it, so that's a moot point.

The more I read, the less critical I get because I realize more and more that this is probably a "first draft." Just a few general points: I like the fact that you aren't afraid to use firebreathers, and other than the aforementioned Nemata and Launcher, the other ones are cool. My problem, though, is that the threat level is so diverse. A key to T4 goodness is that most threats are on a similar level. Memnarch is obviously better than most, but it shouldn't be so much more that the others just aren't worth playing. While you have gamebreaking cards like the Firebreathers, you have terrible threats like Nagao and Tangle Spider. Which would you rather have on your side? There's just no balance there.

A general rule that my group tends to stick by is that no card is strictly better than another in practically every given situation, with the forgivable exception being removal and counterspells. So, while I'd pick Bosh over Bloodfire Colossus EVERY time, there are situations where I'd rather have the Colossus, and I'm never upset to get it. Along this vein I notice that there are many cards in your stack that have strictly better versions that you aren't using (Wrath of God--Kirtar's Wrath). I assume this is a card access thing, and that's cool, but then there are some that shouldn't really be a problem (Disenchant -- Dismantling Blow, Orim's Thunder.)

Just a couple more card specific things: Shrink: I'm not a fan of cards like this. Why not just kill it? Abu Jafar: There are so many better cards that do this, like all the Thicket Basilisk decendants.

Sorry if I'm overcritical. Just trying to help.

[Lost In Admiration]

We play with Rocket Launcher.  It's not even really good.

[Hi-Val]

I find that counterspells really aid any T4 stack. You should look for Voidmage Prodigy and Voidmage Apprentice, as well as Willbender. Stuff like Vex, Hinder and Squelch are still pretty good. As far as other blue goes, Blatant Thievery, Rewind, Riptide Shapeshifter, Ray of Command, etc.

Consider: Aladdin's Lamp, the Black Bringer, the non-stupid Beacons, Planar Portal, MEMNARCH, a neato Chaos Orb proxy...

Looks like your stack is alternately under- and over-powered though.

[doomhed]

That was just a basic starting pile working with what my playgroup suggested.  it s currently undergoing huge revamping. I could not find a D-Blow or a O-Thunder anywhere. the instant speed critters are in there for what they are-instant speed critters. I dont have the X pump spells other than hatred because hatred is somewhat balanced compared to the others. you'll also notice all my fireball critters dont have any kind of evasion. this makes them somewhat more balanced. I am printing up a copy of Menendian Stack from his article and adding my own cards to it.