[Discussion] Isn't it obvious?

[The Sovereign]

Let me start off by saying, yes, I know this is my first post.  I have been playing Type 1 for quite a while, and have lurked TMD for ages as well as participated in many tournaments playing rogue and established decks.


Anyway, Type 1 is a broken format.  Yes, that is very obvious, but not to what I am referring to in my topic.  I'll state it again; type 1 is a broken format.  But in order to be a successful environment, it also has to be a balanced format as well.  Normally when this balance is lost (and new cards don't reclaim the balance), the DCI steps in and restricts or unrestricts cards in order to stabilize the format.  Now, what do I mean by the loss of balance?  Simply that one or two established archetypes makes up 75% or more of the field.  Sure, people try to come up with new, rogue tech.  Others play other established archetypes that may not be as competitive as the trend decks.   However, when these one or two archetypes (or variations) begin to dominate the field, that's when there is a serious problem with the format.  I believe this has happened, more specifically with the Control Slaver archetype.

Take, for example, this last Waterbury (Day 1) Top 8:

1st:  Control Slaver
2nd: Control Slaver
3rd:  TPS
4th:  Meandeck TPS
5th:  Control Slaver
6th:  Control Slaver
7th:  Rector Trix
8th:  Workshop Combo

Let's analyze.  50% Control Slaver.  25% TPS.  25% other.  With the finals being a Control Slaver mirror match.

Waterbury was a tournament with over 200 participants, so for a single deck to represent half of the top 8, *many* people must be playing the deck, or the inherent power of the deck must be very high.  I believe it's a combination of the two.  However, both of these observations have caused the DCI to react in the past for much lesser offenses.


Another recent large type 1 event was the Vintage Evolution.  I was unable to find the T8 results; however, it was yet another Control Slaver mirror in the finals.  


Now, one big thing everyone does before going to any event is metagame.  Which decks will be there?   What do I do against it?   The first thing that *everyone* thinks of is Goblin Welder.  In fact, that's why people bother to rummage through common boxes hoping to find some spare Lava Darts.  Let's think of another popular creature, Exalted Angel.  Assuming Goblin Welder is #1 on the list of what to metagame against, what number is the angel?  

Stop thinking...there is no answer, because most people won't even think about it.  And that can be said about many popular creatures such as Gorilla Shaman, Madness creatures/outlets, Morphling, Mishra's Factory, etc.  The list goes on.

Most people worry about Trinisphere, Welder, and Tendrils.  Which makes sense, but also shows that something is very wrong when people are taking up all these precautions over a R to cast goblin who would've costed 2R had he been printed after Mirrodin.


Obviously, Control Slaver is metagame distorting.  Why aren't people upset?   Why aren't people yelling for restriction?  The answer is very simple.  No offenses, but normally the vocal people who speak on these forums tend to shoot down people who mention restrictions or who mention that a certain deck is too powerful (like my post).  Chances are, these people are the ones in fact playing the deck, and therefore don't want to see something that they know how to play, and that I can only assume they consider fun, disappear into the void that is the restriction list.  Let's face it, 95% of the people on these forums netdeck.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  It's just that when everybody is netdecking the same deck, not only is it unhealthy for the format (because the format will lack diversity), but it makes for one hell of a boring tournament.


So what's the solution?  Normally, when the DCI deals with an overpowered deck, they tend to remove the drawing engine.  An example would be Necro/donate.  The left the illusions/donate combo unrestricted, but shut down the drawing engine, the Necro.  Thirst for Knowledge being the drawing engine, and Welder to bypass casting costs of expensive artifacts.  Both of these cards need to be considered for restriction.


In closing, no, I am not bitter about my first 4 matches being Control Slaver at Waterbury.  No, I do not have a death wish for everyone netdecking the latest version of it.  No, I don't think the people who actually created the deck are evil people.  In fact, since Waterbury, I have put together and have been playtesting a netdecked version of Control Slaver, with slight modification for the next large tournament.



If you can't beat `em....

[Smmenen]

Oh I AM up in arms.  I think something needs to be done.  I think something will be done.

That said, take a look at your data sources.  If gencon were held tommorrow you wouldn't see barely any Control Slaver in the top 8.  The NE is infested at the moment.  The regional metagames are VERY VERY different right now.

[BigMac]

I have to say, i live in Holland and the last 4 top eights i made i cannot remember having seen 1 control slaver among those top 8. And to tell the truth, it is a good deck, but i dont think it is overbearing. Sure, in the hands of a good player that knows how to play it can be very good. But lets face some facts.

Some regions will be infested with control. Other regions are not.

Last year for a very long time Null rod made an appearance in many decks. Lately i cant seem to find any Null rods in decks any more. So with the result in Waterbury, Null rod probably will make a return.

Welder is key to control slaver. Kill the welder or its ability and control slaver has a very hard time to win. (dampingmatrix and Cursed Totem (long forgotten Mirage artifact) come to mind)

In the end there are two key elements in winning a game. First and foremost how to play your own deck. Second, know how your opponents deck works and then know how to make a strategy to actually beat that deck with your deck. If you know certain archetypes will be present at a tourny, be sure to put some tech in your deck devised to win against those decks.

Certain decks will always be better than certain other decks. But in the end it is still the player behind the deck making the difference. A bit of luck is a factor as well but mostly skill will prevail. Restrictions will not help the format as you will be killing not only slaver with the restrictions you suggest but also the 5/3 and TheTinker.dec. The latter i have played extensively and have lost only 1 game against slaver.

I also made a black and white deck that has never lost to slaver. That deck has a downside as well, namely aggro. But with aggro at an all time low this deck could actually become viable again. (it only lost to fish (dead), FCG (not that good to play anyway) and a black and white aggro deck (while mine is a controllish deck)

So yes there are solutions. People just have to have the guts to play them every once in a while. Restrictions are to my oppinion not yet warrented. And to be on the safe side, although i have the cards to build control slaver i have never played it. I may in the future but not now as i expect many of those in comming tournys and i will try and beat those.

In any case, good luck with your construction of slaver and hopefully you get to beat them decks soon enough, with or without control slaver on your side.

[Nantuko Rice]

control slaver isn't broken.

i wouldn't have let so many control slaver into the topdeck but the magic gods decided to mana-screw or spell-screw me HORRIBLY that day (at waterbury).

FCG > Control Slaver (unless it's one of the well experience players)

With so many people netdecking and playing control slaver, alot of those players are also horrible players.

[jpmeyer]

Well, the question that he's asking isn't "Is Control Slaver so strong that it needs to have something done about it?", but rather "Why are people OK with there being 4-5 Control Slaver decks in a top 8 but not when there are say, 2-3 Workshop decks?"

[MrZuccinniHead]

I think it mostly has to do with Workshops decks taking more top 8s overall in other areas, but Control Slaver doesn't put up numbers like that in other areas.

Workshops do tho...especially the poor Euros.

[Klep]

I spoke my mind on this issue in response to Flores's article on interactivity.
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=317095#317095

Basically, both Goblin Welder and Trinisphere are causing large problems in Type 1 because of how they work to make the opponent irrelevant.  Control Slaver is actually an excellent example of Welder's power, because it is allowing an otherwise interactive control deck to win a lot in a metagame which is highly non-interactive.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Frankly, there is no problem with one archetype taking up half the top 8. This is what happens when people make the right call and play a correct deck for the metagame. Vintage is a big format and competent players will survive.

Thankfully the format is still balanced; there hasn't been a deck that was anywhere near 75% of the tournament composition. So the sky isn't falling and there isn't any reason to cry, and there never really was.

[Mr. Fantazy]

......"Why are people OK with there being 4-5 Control Slaver decks in a top 8 but not when there are say, 2-3 Workshop decks?"

Because baiting counters, and forcing things into play are highly interactive, require thought and skill on both players account, and is an accepted aspect of the game, while Trinisphere reduces the game to "Oh I guess I'll just sit here for 3 turns and hope you don't tangle wire/smokestack before I can actually play the answer I'm holding.".

[JACO]

I spoke my mind on this issue in response to Flores's article on interactivity.
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=317095#317095

Basically, both Goblin Welder and Trinisphere are causing large problems in Type 1 because of how they work to make the opponent irrelevant.  Control Slaver is actually an excellent example of Welder's power, because it is allowing an otherwise interactive control deck to win a lot in a metagame which is highly non-interactive.

Please play LAVA DART. It owns Goblin Welders, which are so otherwise 'problematic' for the format. Dan M (from San Francisco) just piloted a 4 Color Tog build through a 34 person tournament at DMF last weekend to a top 2 finish. There was at least 6 or 7 Control Slaver decks and 6 Workshop + Trinisphere decks present in those 34 people. You know why he did so well? Because he played ONE SINGLE FUCKING LAVA DART main, with Intuition. This was enough to topple the madness that is Goblin Welder. Cards like Lava Dart and Ground Seal make Goblin Welder irrelevant and ignorable in a match, so please put them in your decks, and stop saying the format is unhealthy or unbalanced.

Type 1 has the largest pool of cards available to hate, so is it possible that we might use that card pool?

[ELD]

If gencon were held tommorrow you wouldn't see barely any Control Slaver in the top 8.

I think this would depend on if any of New Englands best show.   :lol: Control Slaver does well in the Northeast despite it being the deck to beat.  It is everywhere, and everyone should be prepared for it.  Slaver still does amazingly very well though.  A field of RG beats and Deathlong is the only thing that I can think of that could hate out slaver.  (and in all honesty, a dedicated sideboard could overcome even that kind of field)

For most of my magic playing "career" I've been playing decks that get destroyed by restrictions.  Gush and Burning Wish retired some of my favorate decks.  I won't be surprized if they try and neuter control slaver.  It might take more than one card to get the job done.  The bottom line though, is that there will always be a "best" deck.  With slaver gone, I'd likely play tog.  I'd imagine the results would be the same.

[jpmeyer]

I won't be surprized if they try and neuter control slaver.  It might take more than one card to get the job done.  The bottom line though, is that there will always be a "best" deck.  With slaver gone, I'd likely play tog.  I'd imagine the results would be the same.

I'd have to agree.  I think that Slaver is almost strictly superior to Tog, so unless quite a few cards were hit (I'm thinking Welder and Thirst for Knowledge) from Slaver as well as hitting Intuition, I would not be surprised if the returning Tog decks took some of the tricks from Control Slaver like the afforementioned Lava Dart and were able to roll over Fish that way and be just like Control Slaver is now.

[Mixing Mike]

I think this would depend on if any of New Englands best show.   :lol: Control Slaver does well in the Northeast despite it being the deck to beat.  It is everywhere, and everyone should be prepared for it.  Slaver still does amazingly very well though.

Isn't this the same thing about Hulk when it was running rampant and the same thing with the Keeper decks of old?  We get some many people taking about how my one card is better than yours.  Keeper was dethroned by 'Tog., and now 'Tog has been beaten out by Control Slaver.  Assuming this pattern follows, the only deck that can beat Control Slaver is a new form of aggro-control.  

Now let me say the obligatory 'play the decks that beat slaver to keep it in balance' line.  But is there any deck that Slaver can't be metagamed against to beat consistanty?  IF you knew of it, would it be good against the rest of the field?

I'm not sure if I'm right when I say this, but right after fish stopped doing well, CS started doing REALLY well.  Before fish left the metagame, CS was still putting up results, but not nearly in the numbers it is now.

[Vegeta2711]

Well, the question that he's asking isn't "Is Control Slaver so strong that it needs to have something done about it?", but rather "Why are people OK with there being 4-5 Control Slaver decks in a top 8 but not when there are say, 2-3 Workshop decks?"

Because all control except BBS in T1 has been seen as skilled and beatable decks.

Welder is broken, w00t. Is it a problem? I don't know, because the majority of people seem to absolutely hate playing anything that kills creatures. The main reason stuff like FCG, G/R hate and modded MWS/CS decks seem to have good times against CS is because they have multiple ways to eliminate Welder. Remember how some said Crucible was broken and just destroying everyone's mana bases? Crucible and Wasteland sure got restric... hey wait a second. You mean people played basics in response? Wow.

As I said, I'm wary of any such restriction, yet. It wouldn't sadden me to see it go though.  

[Moxlotus]

Crucible and Wasteland sure got restric... hey wait a second. You mean people played basics in response? Wow.

Exactly.  Control Slaver has weaknesses people, it's just a matter of finding and exploiting them.  So few actual answers, lots of fetchlands, (depending on build) not that versatile...it's just breaking through the raw power to exploit weaknesses.

You mean CS is dominating all over your meta...ever think to play a maindeck Lava Dart like has been suggested?

You say MWS.dec is beating the hell out of everything in your area?  Omg-a maindeck Rack and Ruin-unheard of!!!

2 months ago it was all "omfg-restrict 3sphere, its the nutzzors!! Half of 1 tournament's top 8!!! DOMIANTION!!21  DISTORTING TEH METAGAME!!1!"

Now it's a different deck, with a pair of tournaments (with SCG-Richmond in between that didn't show the same results...) and people are still going on about restricting something.

People need to METAGAME.

Also-maybe another reason it is doing so good is because *gasp* many of the best players are playing it.

EDIT:  Also note that BURNINATOR made top 8 in a field of control slaver.  If a deck loses to a deck with Lightning Bolt it can't be the nuts all the time.  It CAN be beat.  All decks have weaknesses and can be beat.

[Nazdakka]

Well, the question that he's asking isn't "Is Control Slaver so strong that it needs to have something done about it?", but rather "Why are people OK with there being 4-5 Control Slaver decks in a top 8 but not when there are say, 2-3 Workshop decks?"

Because all control except BBS in T1 has been seen as skilled and beatable decks.

Yes and no. The essential question seems to be 'How broken is Drain Slaver?'. I feel the answer is 'Not spectacularly'. It's a solid, consistant performer which will reward a skilled player. It's not way outside the power curve the way BBS, GAT or Long were, and so it seems likely to me it will fade out of fashion again once people start hating it out. CS leans heavily on a 1/1 non-hasty critter, backed by a good draw engine, 8 counters and some number of Duresses. It's not THAT hard to kill the Welder if you have appropriate answers in your deck.

[myhellfire1134]

This is not a thread about white weenie. Warning for spam.
-Jacob

[Jacob Orlove]

EDIT:  Also note that BURNINATOR made top 8 in a field of control slaver.  If a deck loses to a deck with Lightning Bolt it can't be the nuts all the time.  It CAN be beat.  All decks have weaknesses and can be beat.

Burninator got bizarre matchups the whole day. I don't think he played a single CS deck in the swiss.

I'm not sure if I'm right when I say this, but right after fish stopped doing well, CS started doing REALLY well. Before fish left the metagame, CS was still putting up results, but not nearly in the numbers it is now.

You have it backwards--fish stopped doing well once control slaver adapted to just beat it.

[nataz]

You have it backwards--fish stopped doing well once control slaver adapted to just beat it.

I definatly agree. This past summer I was able to 4-0 Control Slaver in a top 8 against some pretty decent players. Part of the reason why I was able to do this was A) Lack of platz maindeck, B) Lack of dart in the board, and C) lack of old man of the sea. This was pre-waterbury where ray unleashed the savage dart/old man tec.

Control slaver used to be a fair match-up, but with darts and old men it's significantly harder. True, CS dosn't play old man in the SB any more, but thats more then made up in the fact that 5/3 and oath now exist.

If anything, CS helped to kill Fish just as much as crucible and oath.

[ELD]

I definatly agree. This past summer I was able to 4-0 Control Slaver in a top 8 against some pretty decent players. Part of the reason why I was able to do this was A) Lack of platz maindeck, B) Lack of dart in the board

I assume you're talking about the tournament that I beat you in the swiss.  I went on to loss to Rich in the top 8.  He proceeded to lose to you in the finals.  I didn't run platz.  I didn't need it.  I had fire/ice and Reb to remove your creatures.  Knowing how to play against fish helped a ton.  Now lava dart makes up for not knowing how to play against fish.  Lava dart so utterly destroys fish, I can't even imagine how anyone can play it.  

The best decks are the ones that not only play the best cards, but abuse them to the fullest.  Storm and Control Slaver use all the artifact acceleration not only to speed up the deck, but as a crucial part of the kill.  As if moxes weren't good enough, using them to recur billion casting cost game winning artifacts or as the actual kill mechanic makes them beyond broken.  I expect that the standard has been raised by both storm and CS.  Now lets see if the rest of the field can catch up to the power/consistancy level.  

HHH looks like it has a shot at being solid, but I think it needs refining.  Staxs is still very good.  There are solid decks out there, but the best ones tend to require a bit of skill to get great results.

[nataz]

I assume you're talking about the tournament that I beat you in the swiss. I went on to loss to Rich in the top 8. He proceeded to lose to you in the finals. I didn't run platz. I didn't need it.

fair enough, but that was durring the swiss. Twice durring different top 8 matches a tinker for a plat would have finnished the game against me there and then, and neither Mike nor Rich were running it. In the end, for the meta-game that was there, not running it, or something else to combat fish was a mistake.  

Dart > old man> plat, and anyone of those cards are a huge problem for fish. However, all of three of those cards together in one deck made a "fair" matchup into a nightmare matchup, and that was exactly what fish was up against when playing control slaver after waterbury.

As long as CS is still running some combonation of those cards, and decks like 5/3 and oath exist, don't count on fish reigning in CS anytime soon.

[Dozer]

Looking back into the past, this sounds awfully similar to all those threads claiming that Keeper was unbeatable and people crying for the restriction of Mana Drain. Oh, how the past comes back to haunt us...

I don't see a problem right now, and I don't have a problem with CS putting up extremely good numbers in the NE of USA. It is not as dominant everywhere else, and the solutions (as Jacob and others pointed out) are there. If a deck is as dominant as CS, I believe that the metagame will take care of it. If it does not, that calls for action by the players, not by someone else (I'm looking at you, DCI!).

There is nothing to worry about (yet). The tech against CS is out there, be it Lava Dart, Ground Seal or Night of Soul's Betrayal. Go figure.

Dozer

[Windfall]

Let me tell you all why Control Slaver is so good.

Goblin Welder is very strong, yes, but it can be stopped.  And it can be stopped quite easily if I may add.  This thread is littered with posts telling people to play Lava Dart, or anything else that kills 1/1s.  I agree that killing 1/1s is not hard, but the problem is it's only mildly effective against a deck like Control Slaver.

The cards that make Control Slaver completely busted are Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will.  Lava Dart does nothing against those two cards, which is why killing 1/1s (or making them suck with something like Ground Seal) is not good enough to shut the deck down.  If Control Slaver Tinkers, it's as good as having an active Welder (and often better because it is faster).  If it plays a busted Will, then it wins due to Tinker most of the time or taking multiple turns and establishing active Welders backed by a counterwall.

I remember a time when I never had to play against Control Slaver because I was the only one playing it.  Now it seems I have to play against it every other round.  When it's not Control Slaver, it's Tendrils.  Personally, I would rather play against Welders all day than play against a single deck with Rituals.

     ~Mark B.

[the boogie man]

I have also noticed a lack of REBs recently. I think that this is one of the best sb cards against super-blue decks, and they warrant 2-3 sb slots of any deck that can support them.

[Smmenen]

Let me tell you all why Control Slaver is so good.

Goblin Welder is very strong, yes, but it can be stopped.  And it can be stopped quite easily if I may add.  This thread is littered with posts telling people to play Lava Dart, or anything else that kills 1/1s.  I agree that killing 1/1s is not hard, but the problem is it's only mildly effective against a deck like Control Slaver.

The cards that make Control Slaver completely busted are Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will.  Lava Dart does nothing against those two cards, which is why killing 1/1s (or making them suck with something like Ground Seal) is not good enough to shut the deck down.  If Control Slaver Tinkers, it's as good as having an active Welder (and often better because it is faster).  If it plays a busted Will, then it wins due to Tinker most of the time or taking multiple turns and establishing active Welders backed by a counterwall.

I remember a time when I never had to play against Control Slaver because I was the only one playing it.  Now it seems I have to play against it every other round.  When it's not Control Slaver, it's Tendrils.  Personally, I would rather play against Welders all day than play against a single deck with Rituals.

     ~Mark B.

At SCG Chicago, did you actually play against a single other slaver deck?  I remember you lost to a horrible deck and then scrubbed out.    My team was playing Goth Slaver - but I hardly can recall a single Control Slaver aside from you.

Welder needs restriction, but becuase it is in the best mana drain deck and the best workshop deck.   It is omnipresent.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

The problem isn't Welder or Trinisphere or Workshop or Mana Drain or any other single card in the format right now. The single biggest problem the format faces now and will continue to face regardless of what new cards are printed or what the DCI sees fit to restrict is LAZINESS.

With the exception of Meandeck, Shortbus and a few other teams and individuals, everyone else - myself included - are playing decks that are already established in the metagame. Nobody else seems willing to come up with something new and play it at big events. The masses simply wait for the next big deck from the SCG events or Waterbury or worse rely on the DCI to fix what they perceive as a problem.

Quit complaining about what you perceive as the problem and find answers to the problem. Play more basic lands, run main deck artifact and creature removal. Answers are out there people. We just have to have the diligence to find them.

[CMass]

Ten minutes ago, Crucible and Trinisphere were ruining the format.  Now I see it's Goblin Welder's turn in the barrel.  Oh, and Tinker and Thirst for Knowledge and, of course, Dark Ritual.  There are probably ten or twelve more cards on the chopping block that I don't know about because I haven't shelled out for premium membership at SCG.  I hate missing out on all the whining tech.

Tog fell from grace because an underpowered tempo deck came along and knocked it off.  The big bully was all but pushed out by a collection of guppies and fairies.  Should we really believe that Control Slaver, or most any deck for that matter, can't be beaten with the cardpool at our disposal?

There is absolutely, positively, and categorically no card that requires restriction, banning, bending, spindling, mutilating or ritualistic burning at this time.  The biggest problem facing Type I: we have a bunch of distinct regional metagames and a corresponding bunch of shameless netdeckers that cut and paste decklists, then show up and play without adapting them to their unique metagames.  That, however, is for another discussion another day.

[Whatever Works]

......"Why are people OK with there being 4-5 Control Slaver decks in a top 8 but not when there are say, 2-3 Workshop decks?"

Because baiting counters, and forcing things into play are highly interactive, require thought and skill on both players account, and is an accepted aspect of the game, while Trinisphere reduces the game to "Oh I guess I'll just sit here for 3 turns and hope you don't tangle wire/smokestack before I can actually play the answer I'm holding.".

Are you saying that Control Slaver takes alot of skill, and Stax doesnt??? I think there is a HUGE misconception that STAX takes no skill when it is just the absolute opposite. Yes, the deck can randomly win games with god hands... but then again so does Oath/Combo, and almost every deck in the format. If Stax didnt take alot of skill then people like Kevin Cron wouldnt be so widely respected for incredibly playskill. He didnt get "lucky" when he top 8'ed at Gencon (twice).

[Mr. Fantazy]

......"Why are people OK with there being 4-5 Control Slaver decks in a top 8 but not when there are say, 2-3 Workshop decks?"

Because baiting counters, and forcing things into play are highly interactive, require thought and skill on both players account, and is an accepted aspect of the game, while Trinisphere reduces the game to "Oh I guess I'll just sit here for 3 turns and hope you don't tangle wire/smokestack before I can actually play the answer I'm holding.".

Are you saying that Control Slaver takes alot of skill, and Stax doesnt??? I think there is a HUGE misconception that STAX takes no skill when it is just the absolute opposite. Yes, the deck can randomly win games with god hands... but then again so does Oath/Combo, and almost every deck in the format. If Stax didnt take alot of skill then people like Kevin Cron wouldnt be so widely respected for incredibly playskill. He didnt get "lucky" when he top 8'ed at Gencon (twice).

:: Looks up, and sees something coming out of left field ::
I'm not quite sure where you came up with this. I was answering JP's proposed question,
"Why are people OK with there being 4-5 Control Slaver decks in a top 8 but not when there are say, 2-3 Workshop decks?".

My response had to do with that question, not what deck requires more skill to play. So to clarify what I'm saying, as an opponent it is much easier to accept a loss to CS then Stax because, when you have to try and bait counters, and force your threats through, people tend to feel they at least had a chance. However, when a 1st turn Trinisphere resolves all you can do is sit there and hope Stax doesnt follow up with Tangle Wire/Smokestack, you are not in the game at all.

People are much more willing to accept a loss where they feel they had a chance, then when they feel they had no chance at all.

What the hell this has to do with which deck requires more skill to pilot, is beyond me. Truthfully I think it is a HUGE mistake to quote posts and respond with something that has nothing whatsoever to do with said quote. I never mentioned Kevin, his skill or his luck, so I'm really at a loss as to what you're trying to get at.

Shawn

[Windfall]

Steve --

I don't recall bashing you for any losses you've had in the past.  We all have bad days.  But in the future, please flame my horrible skill via PMs.

To answer your question, there were other CS decks at SCG 3.  My friend Brian was playing the same build as mine, and he did pretty well.  I didn't see a whole lot, but my friends told me they played a lot of Slaver builds.  Then again, SCG 3 was some time ago, and people were still gushing over Oath, which was everywhere.  As soon as you guys started playing Slaver builds, it started showing up because people are sheep - they won't do something until Meandeck says it's good.

The point of my post was only to say that Control Slaver has bombs other than Welder.  Half the time it wins it's because of Tinker.  It's just an amazing pile of synergy.

As far as restricting Welder, well... I just don't think it's that hard to stop a 1/1 Red creature if you want to.  Restrict Welder and Rituals will be everywhere, and Rituals already win against 1/1 creatures.

     ~Mark B.