[DECK] Gay/r Fish - metagaming

[Diakonov]

I'm under the impression that Fish could perform extremely well right now if it had some way to deal with Colossus and Oath.  It is a deck which has been notorious for beating up on Slaver and combo in the past, both of which are fairly rampant (dominating?) right now.  

When Oath became popular via Orchard, it did a wonderful job of exterminating all forms and hybrids of aggro in the game, which were already on their way out from Tinker-->Colossus.  The only aggro variant to survive was 5/3, which has been losing popularity in recent weeks.  

Initially, it seemed that this was a deathblow to Fish.  However, it may just turn out to be a blessing as the format is almost completely devoid of aggro, which historically has always been a bad matchup for Fish.

A link to the old thread which discusses how to deal with Oath/DSC is here.

Here's my metagamed list:

Gay/R FISH

Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Waterfront Bouncer

Draw

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Annul
2 Energy Flux
2 Sword of Fire and Ice


I absolutely agree that the best way to deal with Oath is Annul.   I don't like the strategy of sacking your own creatures as this would obviously be  counter-productive.  Creatures are essential for the deck to work since it relies on Curiosity as its major draw engine.

With this build, Colossus is not as much of a worry because you run MD Bouncers.  Also you can side into 4 REBs, which makes Tinker a lot less scary.

In theory, the deck's advantage over Slaver and combo should remain, as I see no reason for that to change.

The only major downside that I see is the Cerebral Assassin matchup.  On paper it looks like it would be a nightmare, but I haven't really tested it yet.

Thoughts?

[Jacob Orlove]

Slaver runs (usually maindeck) Lava Dart and Triskelion. Both of those cards absolutely destroy you. Old school fish builds no longer have a good matchup against slaver.

[darkchild]

I having been testing fish in the new environment and i find that by adding the betrayer ninjas in the deck, it will actually help in a number of matchups. Here is the sample decklist that i am playing.

Ninja Fish from Singapore

Mana Base
1 Flooded strand
4 Polluted Delta  
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Ninja of Deep Hours
3 Mistblade Shinobi

Draw

4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
4 Daze  
3 Null Rod

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Improvements
1)You get a creature with inbuild curiousity, so you don't lose card advantage when your creature with curiousity is killed.

2)Ninjutsu can slip under a standstill, so you can actually cast 'curiousity' on your creature under standstill.

3) Ninjutsu is uncounterable.

4)Mistblade Shinobi can bounce opponent's creatures under a standstill in order to add further pressure on the opponent to break standstill.

I have not created a sideboard for the deck but i presume that it wil most probably contain cards tune against workshop decks as they still cause the greatest nightmares.

Testing results show an advantage against control base decks in control slaver or UBr tog, even 50 percent against combo and die to workshop as usual. It is however fun to play , and you get to shout NINJA in Type 1.

Edit : Mistblade shinobi can bounce oath creatures and make the creature stuck in the oath's player's hand. with 19 creatures in the deck (no including man lands), I am pretty sure that at least one creature will get through for you to ninja in your shinobi.

Against control slaver, I agree that lava dart still hurts, but at least your ninja of deep hours have two toughness requiring then to flashback the dart to kill it .

Secondly, you do not lose any card disadvantage by having your curiousity enchanted creatuer die from dart. Presideboard, if you can resolve two things, null rod and lavamancer, the game's yours. Control slaver two biggest weakness is that it is very mana hungry and welder is EXTREMELY important to them.

[Diakonov]

Slaver runs (usually maindeck) Lava Dart and Triskelion. Both of those cards absolutely destroy you. Old school fish builds no longer have a good matchup against slaver.

Null Rod stops Trisk, but Lava Dart could be a problem.  It's a tough question of whether or not this alone will swing the matchup.  Has anyone tested it recently?

[Polynomial P]

I thought Faerie conclaves have been dropped from Fish because they are too slow and clunky. I would drop them for MD annul, more acceleration, misdirection, or stifle.

[MrZuccinniHead]

I'm assuming the SB plan is to switch out waterfront bouncers for Annuls vs. oath because oath will bring in protection creatures in games 2-3 to make him useless?

Another thing i have noticed is that Brainstorm > Standstill in today's metagames.

[yodoblec]

Another thing i have noticed is that Brainstorm > Standstill in today's metagames.

In any deck today that's true, but not with Gay/r. Fish just wants to see as mana cards as they possibly can not get the best one. In this deck Standstill is better because, Quanity > Quality cause there is no bomb card.

[Revvik]

Faerie Conclave

Isn't it usually nice to have another beater (especially an evasive one) under a Standstill?  The flying aspect of this creature means its harder to stall with blockers against Fish.

A lot of people look at this card and think it's terrible, but the truth is, it's only terrible if you don't know when / how to play it.

Fish right now seems to be a miserable deck to play.  Trinisphere buys time better, Mindslaver can really wreck you by forcing you to waste your own lands, burn your own creatures, and counter your own spells.  This deck just doesn't attack decks like it used to.

[nataz]

Mindslaver can really wreck you by forcing you to waste your own lands, burn your own creatures, and counter your own spells.  This deck just doesn't attack decks like it used to.

heh, Its not the mindslaver you have to worry about, its the lava darts, lots of basics, crucible/strip combo, and big fat men that make baby fishy cry.

[Diakonov]

Mindslaver is definitely not the issue, as it is an expensive effect and can be stopped by Null Rod.  

As for the big fat men, the only ones I have seen in large circulation would be Jug and Titan (I'm not counting angels and colossuses, which i discussed earlier).  In theory, Workshop decks with Jugs can be greatly slowed--often to a halt--by siding in Annuls and Energy Fluxes to accompany Null Rod and Daze.  

Titans remain a serious problem to be resolved.  Welders can be killed and Fish should hopefully be able to keep the opponent's mana base low, but Animate Dead ignores all of this.  

I still think the most annoying drawback which I had forgotten about is what Jacob initially mentioned- Lava Dart.  

Perhaps today's archetypes have become too refined for Fish to take advantage of.  In light of the lack of random aggro and the wide presence of formerly awesome matchups, I thought it seemed fair to give it another shot.

As for Conclave, it's worth having at least one.  It really can't hurt you under most circumstances since you'll eventually find a good turn to play a CIPT land, and it can be beautiful in the late game.  

BTW, I think the new ninja has some strong potential here.  It definitely can't replace Curiosity, but maybe finding a way to add a couple would be beneficial.

[onelovemachine]

Fish always was a miserable deck to play; it just was a poorly understood miserable deck to play.

[Diakonov]

Fish always was a miserable deck to play; it just was a poorly understood miserable deck to play.

If that's true, then PTW is the luckiest magic player on the face of the earth.

[Hi-Val]

Fish always was a miserable deck to play; it just was a poorly understood miserable deck to play.

So impossibly wrong. Fish is the best tempo deck that Vintage has ever seen. The problem right now is that Fish's tempo machines get hosed in a way that did not hose them before.

[Mark_Story]

I think the ninja's could be an interesting addition to the deck.  They are techy and all, but fish was a deck about tempo.  Ninjutsu'ing an attacking spiketail creates no tempo, and weakens your disruption plans.  However, they are stronger with faeries, and possibly good with man lands.  I think that waterfront bouncer is a better addition than mistblade shinobi.  Because waterfront doesn't need to enter the red zone for it's effect to be relavant.  Shinobi, may bounce once or twice, but the bouncer can bounce as often as you have cards, and can bounce on your opponents turn before you take 6 to the face from her majesty of mechanics.

As far as conclaves are concerned, I find that with the prevalence of crucible/waste/strip, they just aren't worth it.  Conclaves will always be stripped first they are harder to block, and reduce your blue mana.  Furthermore, even with your own crucible, conclaves still aren't worth the trouble coming into play tapped and all.

Has anyone considered running lavadart in addition to lavamancer?  dart is tech vs joblin welder, and a fish manabase with crucible might be able to make use of it?

[darkchild]

While i agree that waterfront bouncer can bounce as and when it likes, resolving the bouncer will be an issue. Oath have 14 counters to use and if I am the oath player, other than fighting over oath the only other thing that is a threat is the bouncer so the likely hood of you resolving it looks slim to me.

[SamTheHam]

Yeah I play fish all the time.  I still do decent (top 4 ing) but not with any old fish build.  You can' t go straight gay/r anymore.  The big men and oath beasts realy hose you as does tinker and any thing with crucible.  So what do you do?  Add white.  It has to be done.  Meddling mage on first turn for oath is house.  They are pretty much screwed with out counters.  Plus you get swords.  yes giving them 11 extra life sucks, but it isn't like you were gonna win that quick any way.  Plus. it's better than losing...

here is my list.

4 spiketail hatchling
4cloud of faeries
4 grim man
3 meddling mage

4 standstill
4 force of will
4 curiosity
1 time walk
1 anscetral recall
2 daze
3 stp
3 null rod

1 mox pearl
1mox sapphire
4 turndra
3volcanic island
1 island
1 plains
4 mishras factory
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

you have good match ups vs oath now, but first turn oath is still a kick in the sack.  then you have to rely on stp for the win.  plsu the oath first turn mage is good.  just dont name the wrong thing.  as we know, fish has it tough, but this deck helps.  

the board is in constant flux depending on scouting pre-toruney.  there is always plenty of stifles and seals of cleansing/ annuls, depending on your move.  then the other stp, tormods, rack and ruin and rebs for other slots.

example
3seal of cleansing
3 stile
3 reb
1 stp
3rack and ruin
2 tormods crypt

[onelovemachine]

If that's true, then PTW is the luckiest magic player on the face of the earth.

No, ptw built a perfect, down to the t, metagame deck that had strong tempo oriented threats/counters/draw and was so successful that it dominated the summer metagame for awhile.  With the synergy of the deck, it performed very well.  Players couldn't understand why there was one mox, library, one stifle, and one misdirection until they saw a first turn library from a tempo deck, a stifled fetch at the worst possible time, or a misdirected ancestral for the win.

After a time, the deck became well known.  It didn't fly under the radar any more.  Instead of playing psychatog, players picked up on the fact that mishra's workshops and trinispheres were really good against that deck, tendrils was really good against that deck, mono-u was really good against that deck, and decks like belcher could even race said null rod deck.  A plethora of decks figured out how to beat fish, including and especially slavery.  Tech was developed and the giant fell.  How is that oath matchup anyway?   How does waterfront bouncer do against tendrils for 20?  Do you really think that fish can be a contender with things like meandeck tendrils running around?   I guess it is possible, but with so many decks able to ruin fish's day the main and sideboard would have to be perfectly metagamed for each.  With that many decks to hate on, it would get stretched thin.  In my opinion, its reign of terror is over.

[nataz]

Instead of playing psychatog, players picked up on the fact that mishra's workshops and trinispheres were really good against that deck, tendrils was really good against that deck, mono-u was really good against that deck, and decks like belcher could even race said null rod deck.  [\quote]

I dissagree with the bolded statement above, and with you assumption that fish would be horrible vs meandeck tendrils.

Force of will, daze, and stifle turn one on the play isnt that bad. Turn two leaves you with null rod.

Post board, tendrils could bring in force, but then that slows them down a turn. Good enough for fish because they will need that extra turn for Lab, or maybe chalice.

This basicly applies to other combo decks also. For slightly slower combo Wasteland can become a serious problem if you rely on non-basics, and spiketail/stifle isn't a cakewalk either.

Not saying that fish is coming back, but it bothers me when people quote why its gone for the wrong reasons.

If for some reason you wanted fish back, you would need to figure out how *not* to lose vs control slaver with maindeck darts, oath, and a bevy of fun filled WS fat/crucible decks.

[Conan_barberarn]

I've been thinking about Phyrexian Furnace as a way for fish to deal with 2 of its worst enemys, namely welder (if the play dart) and CoW. You would have to skip null rod but as allready stated, the decks that are hurt by nullrod will most probably race it anyway. Furnace will prevent wasteland recursion aswell as stopping some nice welder targets and at worst it cycles.

+ for Furnace
Cycles if useless
A one mana drop that becomes active imidietly
Helps against land recursion with CoW
Helps against welder<=>TFK
Helps against dragon.
(Helps to some extent with preventing treashold)
God synergy with Shaman

- for Furnace
Not compatible with null Rod
Useless in a number of matchups: oath, some combo etc..
Can be played around
Useless against tinker=>DSC or any other allready resolved threat.

What do you think? I previously tried to fit this card into Landstill but didn't have much succes. Do you think it's a viable option?

Edited Scrabbling Claws=> Phyrexian Furnace which is obviously better.

/Gustav

[Tristal]

Very minor point; Phyrexian Furnace is superior to Scrabbling Claws, because they don't get a choice what card to remove.

[Conan_barberarn]

Very minor point; Phyrexian Furnace is superior to Scrabbling Claws, because they don't get a choice what card to remove.

Oh that's right. Thanks for helping out. Do you think it might work?

/Gustav

[Revvik]

U/G fish, utilizing Seedtime  

In all seriousness, I think there are better budget alternatives to Fish in todays metagame, especially due to its weaknesses to a majority of the field.  I used to play the deck, until I found myself on the wrong end of too many 2-0s.  Sold my stuff for Mana Drains and never looked back.

Some fun stuff I used with my old deck, since I might as well contribute while being negative:

Tormod's Crypt - 3-4 in board due to Dragon, but translates decently into Control Slaver.
Stifle - at one point I was so in love with this card I ran 4 maindeck.  Maybe this will help with Wasteland to deny the Control Slaver player the opportunity to fetch out colored mana when they need it (though this is highly doubtful).

Maybe a mostly green splash would better take advantage of the metagame.  At one point, I was considering this, since green offers:

Ground Seal
Root Maze
Oxidize
Naturalize

A compliment of 3 maindeck Null Rod and 3 maindeck Ground Seal is pretty disruptive to Control Slaver, add in Ground Seal post-side and now you're giving them quite a headache.

However, the best disruption to basically ALL of the decks in the field (save Combo) is Green and Red (and even Red has the anti-combo Pyrostatic Pillar).  This color-combination allows for Rack & Ruin, Ground Seal, Artifact Mutation (), Tormod's Crypt, burn spells, etc.  A vastly better variety of tools.

Unfortunately, this could run you right into vulnerability to the "Unholy Trio" (MWS, Crucible, Trinisphere), so a better manabase is in order.  Maybe:

5 Fetch
4 Island
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

Off the top of my head.  This eliminates your ability to run Manlands (a big component of the deck) but improves your resiliency to Crucible of Worlds.  

Note that there is a deck out there that can do all of the things that Fish can do, and in some cases, do them better.  R/G Beatz has an impressive matchup against any Workshop and Control deck.  The only problem, is that it has a slightly weaker combo matchup than Fish (no FOW, no Stifle), but it does not roll over and die because it has maindecked Root Maze and sideboarded Pyrostatic Pillar.  And it beats the ever-livin' tar out of Fish itself.

<shrug> Just a thought, although I hope some of what I mentioned is helpful in developing Fish.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you're going to play WTF, at least run the proper manabase. It should look something like this:

1-4 artifact accel
3-4 foothills
2-3 blue fetches
1 forest
1 mountain
1 volcanic
1 trop
3-5 islands
0-3 factories
5 strip

Running a thousand trops and volcs is just terrible.

[AnFgangsta]

First, about faerie conclave, someone said that you just have to know when and how to play it, and to them I say:

Well if you cant play it when you get it, its just one card taking up space, the conclave is only good after you have established control/quasi-control of the board early, but it remains one card that just sits in your hand until then, could take the place of the daze or force of will that would prevent your opponent from breaking your back.

The biggest problem with fish is its creatures sizes as mentioned in other posts. I mean...the whole idea of the deck is similar to that of Grow I believe, look at the similarities between the decks, when W is splashed we see Meddling Mage, StP, etc.  The utlity itself is fine, but its like trying to saw through a tree with a blade of grass I guess you could say LoL The fact of the matter is Grow presents the same idea of setting down quick creatures, but its creatures are much bigger. Id gladly play a Quirion over a Spiketail Hatchling.

Fish, you could say is just a crappy deck (meaning without standstill) based around standstill, and for a reason, its great drawing, but Grow has a sweet draw engine too, not to mention you having a large hand lets you abuse library of brokenness.

I feel thats fair enough to say Oath is going to just eat all your critters for dinner, and as mentioned resolving a bouncer is the problem. With the grow idea of Q-Dryads, you dont need to because your Dryad will eat Akroma for dinner relatively quickly. Meddling mage is also some key tech, not only makes your Dryad big and strong but takes a crap on your opponents deck, and is protected by your free, super cheap counters.

It comes down to fish..or SHARKS, when you look at them, fish is just a lesser version of grow...and why on Earth should we settle with a lesser version?

[Smmenen]

About Fish:

1) Add Black Lotus.  It isn't a problem with WElder becuase of this reason: you have Grim Lavamancer.

2) When you add black lotus, DO NOT cut a mana source.  I cut Misdirection for it and I never looked back.

3) Find a way to deal with Oath.  There are many, many solutions.  You just need to find the right one for you.

4) I have tested Ninja dude extensively and I am not convinced that he is that good.  I would only play two - cutting the Voidmage Prodigy from Marc's list for it.

[mongrel12]

smemmen--do you have a list you feel like posting? All of us ex-fish players would love to see what you've done with the deck.

[Slay]

Has anyone considered just going all-out and using 3-4 maindeck Arcane Labs? They are a great hoser to any Mana Drain decks and also combo.

The Oath player or the CS player can no longer protect any of his threats, because once he casts something big, you counter it, and they can't counter back. Spiketails help even morei n this regard, because if they try to counter your spells, you counter back.

Without a strong Workshop presence in the environment(assumed), decks that like to cast one or two big threats and ride them out generalyl would fade away. The only real problem I could see is if strong aggro comes back and becomes nasty, especially madness and that bird shit deck.
-Slay

[49 Cents]

Is it just me, or is U/W Fish better?
With cards like Meddling Mage, Kami of Ancient Law, Seal and StP it brings better matchups and White seems to be better then Green.
I would also add Vials and run Null Rod in the SB (but I dont know what your meta is like).
They are great, your tempo increases and you make a surprise effect with Mage and Kami.
Also with Weathered Wayfarer you can search your Strip effect, which is also great against a lot of decks.

Greetz,

Hugo

[Diakonov]

Actually, I have been starting to think more and more lately that UW Fish is simply the strongest variant.  StP is unparalleled right now, not to mention that Mage is a deadly two-drop in such a streamlined metagame.  The Kami is a very interesting sideboard option, as well.  People should start testing with that new ninja, it could be some good.

The one place I strongly disagree would have to be excluding Null Rod from the MD to the sideboard.  Rod is a key part of the mana-denial strategy in Fish, and must be included.

[Outlaw]

I feel that the U/W build is definitely the strongest for todays meta.  Why do you ask?  Meddling Mage can be a serious advantage after knowing what your opponent is playing (obviously) and swords to plowshares is key agaisnt welder decks and oath.  For some reason that you will be playing U/R make sure ot use moer shamans if your plan is to ninja out a quick ninja, plus the shaman is just awesome in the meta.