[Deck] GroATog Discussion

[alvin6688]

I'm a GroATog lover. I played GAT back in the days of unrestricted Gush, played in the days after Gush and before Trinisphere, and I now play it in Extended - see

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=209287&sid=b83b4f8a2224b1547e10d170a6a3daa5.

But going into Syracuse, I think GAT has a chance to peek its head out and challenge the assumed metagame, once again. With Workshop decks going down in both number and effectiveness, and Mana Drain decks on the rise, GAT no longer has to fight its way through Trinisphere after Trinishpere in every tournament it goes to. And even if it does have to, I think it can:

Maindeck
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Psychatog
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fastbond
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Mana Drain
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Basic Island (1 Flooded Strand?)

Sideboard
3 Duress
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
1 Oxidize
1 Stifle
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Berserk
1 Ebony Charm

With the projected field to have Control Slaver, TPS, and Workshop (5/3 or Stax) as the top three decks, I geared the sideboard to fit that metagame.

So, what's different about this build that you might not expect? First, after testing Disrupting Shoal, I can confidently say that if built around, this card is Force of Will 5-8. Remember Misdirection in old GAT? This is it - a somewhat conditional back-up pitch counter that stops the most feared threats in modern Type 1. Let's take a look:

1cc:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall - is it worth it to counter Welder?
(Sideboard: BEB, Stifle, Chain of Vapor)

counters...
Goblin Welder!
Dark Ritual!
Red Elemental Blast!
Ancestral Recall

2cc:
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
(Sideboard: Hurkyl's Recall)

counters...
Mana Drain!
Oath of Druids!
Accumulated Knowledge!
Survival of the Fittest
Ground Seal
Pyrostatic Pillar
Mana Leak
Sphere of Resistance!
Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead
Cabal Ritual
All of Fish

3cc:
3 Psychatog
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Cunning Wish

counters...
Trinisphere!
Crucible of Worlds!
Tangle Wire!
Doomsday
Yawgmoth's Will!
Thirst for Knowledge!
Intuition!
Draw Sevens!
Cunning Wish!
Necromancy
Death Wish
Back to Basics
Psychatog

With Shoal, you now have 8 ways of dealing with Turn 1 Trinisphere, Turn 1 Oath, Turn 1 Dark Ritual, or even Turn 1 Welder.

Other card choices:

I chose Thirst for Knowledge over Night's Whisper because I wanted to max out on blue spells, especially blue spells or 3cc. Also, Thirst for Knowledge makes the deck more aggressive, is an instant and so is good with Mana Drain, and can allow me to combo out with more ease. This list is similar to the ones Ultima had so much success with a year ago.

Three Psychatogs because TfK makes them so much better, because they are 3cc, and because they are better when you combo, which you do very often.

I chose Mystical Tutor over Vampiric Tutor because blue cards are so important in this deck. Vamp Tutor is nice, though, because it finds that Fastbond.

If you look at my mana base, you'll see "4 Basic Island", which is a great relief in a metagame where nonbasics last about a turn before being blown up. "4 Basic Island" is the attribute that I'm most proud of in this deck.

The other possibility for the deck is 4C GATr - splashing red for powerful sideboard options and Fire/Ice:

Maindeck
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Psychatog
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fire/Ice
1 Fastbond
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Mana Drain
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island (1 Flooded Strand?)
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Basic Island

Sideboard
2 Energy Flux
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Berserk
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Fire/Ice
1 Coffin Purge
1 Rack and Ruin

Red offers GATr an awesome sideboard, at the cost of that precious "4 Basic Island". I'm still not sure if it's worth it. Maybe cut a spell for one more Island?

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I think I would run sleight of hand over serum visions. When you start to combo off, you want the card NOW, not a turn later. Sleight digs faster than the serum visions.

As far as shoals goes, is it really worth it? The reason GAT could run 4 MisD was because ancestral was so huge, and the card disadvantage was made up through Gush. I'm not certain that you have enough card draw to support 8 force of wills. I would say 2-3 shoals should suffice.

I still don't see how this deck can reliably beat oath though. Like, I know the deck isn't popular right now, but isn't it almost an autoloss? Or am I just playing the matchup wrong?

-Bob

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

How useful do you find Fastbond? When I used to play GAT I cut that thing kinda quick actually because I found it to be too often a dead draw and it began to frustrate me.

Sure with Gush it was phenominal but what if you draw it third turn vs Control Slaver. It's not very likely to show up in your opening hand and bleh if it comes later.

[alvin6688]

I try to play GAT very aggressively; I'm trying to preserve as much of GAT's raw power as possible. I don't like the builds that maindeck Deeds and 3 Cunning Wish and tons of land. It's just not GAT.

However, I like my Fastbond. If I don't draw it, I don't draw it. If I do draw it, I Merchant Scroll for Gush, or find Ancestral Recall, or better yet, I grab a Yawgmoth's Will. But it is one of the last cards I added to the deck, and one of the first that can be cut.

I tested against Oath today pre-sideboard only, and came up 6-4. This is how it worked out, atleast for me today: If they are playing, and find a god start with turn 1 Oath backed by a Force of Will, the only chance I have is

a) Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal
b) Black Lotus and Cunning Wish
c) a combo draw

If I can combo and resolve a Tog within two turns of a resolved Oath, I can Berserk over their head. If I have a god, but non-combo, draw to match their god combo draw, I can Force their Force and run them out of steam for a while. If I have Black Lotus and Cunning Wish, I can get Naturalize. That last option is a stretch.

Games against Oath usually end in wars of attrition based around both sides resolving a key draw spell. If they get AK for 3 and 4 going, I'm done. If I get Yawgmoth's Will or Gush, they're done. 6-4 points to a relatively even matchup.

-----------------------------------------------

In Extended, I'm used to running GAT on 16-17 mana sources. I hate drawing into mana clumps. It's the worst thing in the world to fight hard and win a counter war over turn 1 Dryad, with both sides depleted, just to have you draw into Mox, Mox, Island.

So, I made some changes to the decklist:

-2 Island, -1 Tropical Island, -3 Serum Visions, -1 Disrupting Shoal,
+1 Flooded Strand, +1 Night's Whisper, + 1 Merchant Scroll, +4 Sleight of Hand

The extra Merchant Scroll is there because of Fastbond.

Men - 7
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Psychatog

Dig - 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Night's Whisper
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
2 Cunning Wish

Disrupt - 10
4 Force of Will
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Mana Drain

Broken - 7
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt

That Other Stuff - 14
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island

Bob, good call on the Sleights. I should have seen that. Again, it's that Extended mindset taking over...

-Alvin[/b]

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Okay, here's my problem with GAT. Quirion dryad is very situational. You need to play him very early in the game and still have a fairly good grip to have him become a threat. In this format, where every good deck has a strong turn 1 play, you will be expending all your resources to stop an opposing deck from going broken. This means that unless you get that turn 1 dryad, it simply won't be big enough of a threat. If thats the case, why not just play Tog? It's good anytime you play it, and fits naturally with any deck that draws a bunch of cards. Ever since GAT lost Gush, it's been lacking in the card draw department. Sure, cantrips are nice, but they don't provide solid card advantage. This means you run out of gas very quickly, especially if you had to pitch to FoW or shoal. For this reason, I can't see it keeping up with a deck like Control Slaver, where it can outdraw you and randomly win in one turn. Here's the last list of GAT I had before I shelved it.

4 Dryad
3 Tog

4 Daze
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Night's Whisper
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gush
1 Will
1 Fastbond
1 Vamp. Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cunning Wish

5 Moxes
1 Lotus
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Islands
4 Fetches

As far as Fastbond goes, you really can't cut it at all. The deck is basically "stall until you get Will", where fastbond becomes INSANE. Daze is really really good, as you want to play dryad on turn 2, and daze lets you do it without card disadvantage. It runs all the tutors because you basically want the best chances of getting that will. Night's whisper is still the best card draw, IMO, because it digs, and it costs 2. Playing AKs right now is VERY risky, as oath should be a bad matchup, and slaver decks are running it too. Thirst just seems like it costs too much, and there's not really anything you want to pitch. If you run Thirsts, adding a pair of deeps wouldn't be such a terrible idea.

The deck still needs a solid answer to Workshop based decks, because no matter what anyone says, it's a terrible matchup. Between Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, FAT (Titan, Trisk), Chalice, and Welder, it's not looking very good. With the rise in Workshop aggro (5/3), it may not be a bad idea at all to try and fit in some oxidizes.

While Shoals definitely look interesting, I don't know if they are truly better than Daze. It reallty worries me that a deck running night's whisper as a draw engine would run potentially 8 force of wills.

Finally, I have seen other versions of GAT that are more controlling and run tinker/colossus in place of 2 Togs. That may be a good idea, but if you expect CS, it may not be so hot.

-Bob

[Grand Inquisitor]

I haven't tested with shoals, but I would say that this deck thrives in a slaver & combo metagame.

However, please play the one sideboard card that crushes this environement: ground seal.  Also, Clown... is right, daze is what you need to play your (main phase) threats, and disrupt your opponent.

It reallty worries me that a deck running night's whisper as a draw engine would run potentially 8 force of wills

Gush doesn't draw any more cards than Night's Whispers does.

[Ultima]

I'll be perfectly honest about this subject.  GAT probably doesn't have a shot at today's metagame unless there some new tool printed or thought of that's not been tried already.

I have tried really hard to make GAT work and to be blunt, it just doesn't have the tools to beat the tier 1s or tier 2s for that matter.  You need to draw really well and have your opponent draw really badly to beat most workshop decks now.  Oath is, in my experience, a really bad match up where if you stall, and that does happen alot, they win the game.  And Slaver now can be even worse, imo.  I tested GAT again very recently with lots of different builds and ideas and frankly, none of them even dented the Goth Slaver matchup.  

I'll say this, if you can find a build that can reliably handle both Oath and Goth Slaver, you have a shot.  But then you have to contend with workshop and combo, so no matter what, its a really rough road.

[VonDouche]

How have your matchups against Slaver been playing out?  From the looks of it, it seems it would be a winable, but uphill battle the whole way.  I could be totally wrong, but if you can't compete with both slaver AND workshop at least 50-50 it doesn't really make sense to play a deck in this metagame.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I was personally testing MiracleGro the other week vs Control Slaver and it seemed like a moderately easy battle. I would assume Gro-A-Tog would have a very similar matchup if not identical to MiracleGro.

I tested Disrupting Shoal in MiracleGro and I found inferior to Misdirection. Misdirection is a better tool in my opinion then Disrupting Shoal. A misdirection can counter a Force Of Will which is key, Disrupting Shoal can't. Misdirection can also change the whole tempo of a game by having Ancestral Recall target you or Deep Analysis.

[Whatever Works]

With testing Disruptive Shoals in GAT... Have you found that it is to big of a tempo killer for the deck??? FoW is FoW so it has to be run odviously... But in the case of Shoals do you really want to be holding a counter that will make you pitch tempo cards... GAT is all about pumping a dryad, and it seems rather hard in a situation like this:

Its Turn 2: You played first and its there turn...

You have 2 land + off color mox in play... 1 Island untapped... and a 1/1 dryad in play...

Hand: 5 cards
Shoals
Land
Time walk
Night's Whisper
Cunning Wish

Opponent casts: Oath of Druids

You can either: Counter with Shoals pitching Time walk...
Or let it go, and next turn cast time walk and whispers... setting up a cunning wish the following turn...

In this situation Shoals is a decent card, but by using it you would be killing tempo more then by finding answers through other methods... This hand was thought off the top of my hand, and I didnt want to show a hand that would make shoals look unrealistically bad, because in all honestly it isnt a bad card, but I find it inferior to other cards availible to the deck...

Overall,
This deck should be put on the shelves until 3sphere is restricted...

[Maabush]

I think that thirst for knowledge are not so useful like it seems. Maindeck you have only 7 artifacts, so rarely you will have one in hand.
Playing thirst will be a cardtrade like  3 for 3 (1 thirst +2 discarded cards for 3 cards drawn) for 3 (cost)..not so good...


I suggest you to remove thirsts and shoals and put in  2 mis-d and  4 night's whisper(1 card for 2, cost 2)...and 2 more cunning wishes, so you can take back what you pitch with forces and mis-d...

[Eastman]

I just can't think of a reason to play Quirion Dryad over Oath of Druids right now.

[apoc7k]

Well, I was thinking about it, and what about including maindeck berserks? The thing is, you will probably want to get it over in one swing. I guess I just like the possibility of killing a turn faster with a huge creature, but then again it sure does have it's mishaps. If an opponent has any method at all of preventing you from attacking, then you probably wasted a lot of cards. I suppose that berserk is just one of those fuels for a deck that makes it go through half the work for a kill that can backfire somewhat, but isn't that somewhat like combo? (a faster plan with more room to backfire?)

I was also curious about running any form of draw-7 (mainly timetwister). I figure that if you go the route of a psychatog kill, granted you don't have a lot of cards in the graveyard, it might add a little fuel to the flame. I do think that a card like windfall would be pretty stellar in this deck however. If you went through all the trouble drawing, and then casted that, it would be a huge jump for the lone tog.

If I sound like an idiot right now, I apologize... I am really tired and quite stressed out, but I still make time to post here.

Anyways, I hope GAT can someday make an enormous comeback...

[the boogie man]

Honestly, one of the most recent cards I cut was mana drain(!). The reason is that I could never use the mana. I often burned for a bunch. And Fastbond seemed kkind of counter-intuitive, because you don't run that many mana sources. the reason that it was run was because you could just gush like  crazy untill you found it and then won.

just so ill stop babbling, here is the decklist that I run.

creatures:7
4 quirion dryad
3 psychatog

counters:9
4 force of will
3 disrupting shoal
2 duress

draw:20
4 accumulated knowledge
3 nights whispers
4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
1 mystical tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 fire/ice
1 ancestral recall
1 gush

other:2
1 yawgmoth's will
1 time walk

mana:22
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
2 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 volcanic island
2 island
2 swamp
(I might cut a swamp for an island)
1 strip mine

4 on-color moxes
1 black lotus

sideboard:
1 ghastly demise
1 berserk
1 naturalize
2 ground seal
1 artifact mutation
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 rack and ruin
1 fire/ice
1 hydroblast
1 echoing truth
1 hurkyl's recall
2 energy flux

the reason that I do not like daze is because you don't have any mana denial at all except the random strip mine, and it is kind of dead in the late game. shoal is easilly hardcast in the late game, and you can always just play it (hardcast or not) on any random spell to pump dryad.

thats all.

[erictehfatz0r]

If you're not playing either Drain or Intuition, why are you still running AKs? They aren't good in the early game, which is where this deck wants to draw a lot of cards. I'd probably replace them with either Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand, since they're faster than AKs.

[Stupid_Newb]

First of all, I'll post a decklist, because what I've been testing with is quite different than anything else in this thread...

Mana Sources - 23
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Underground Sea
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Island
    4 City of Brass
    5 Moxen
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring

Creatures - 4
    3 Quirion Dryad
    1 Psychatog

Control - 14
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    3 Cunning Wish
    2 Disrupting Shoal
    1 Swords to Plowshares

Draw/Tutor/Utility/Broken - 19
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    3 Isochron Scepter
    3 Intuition
    3 Brainstorm
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Gush


SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Berserk
SB: 1 Oxidize
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1 Naturalize
SB: 3 Crucible of Worlds

First, I'll start off with the negatives. As you can see, the manabase is highly sensitive to Wastelands + Crucibles. I do manage to run four basic Islands, but I do depend on the Cities to make sure color isn't an issue. So far this has been probably the biggest problem. The solution is the three sideboarded Crucibles, but they leave you very open to Wastes in game one. I might consider running 1-2 CoWs in the MD.

Next thing in the negatives is a pretty tight sideboard. I'd really like to find some room for Pernicious Deeds or Engineered Explosives (probably Deeds), but pretty much everything has a good purpose to it. Swords, Oxidize, Rack and Ruin, Fire/Ice, and Naturalize make up a very versatile array of hate cards. Stifle and MisD can save you in the early game (Stifle a Fetch or Waste, MisD a Recall). Echoing Truth is the Oath hate, Recall totally screws 5/3 and Stax. Crucibles have already been covered, and Vampiric Tutor & Skeletal Scrying are for a little help (Scrying is a good Drain outlet).

Next I'll focus on my favorite aspect of the deck: Isochron Scepter. This card is a beast. Going Intuition ---> 3 AK's ---> Isochron w/ AK is deadly. You're getting three cards a turn for two mana a turn. It is easy to drain mana from a Drain in. I have only two complaints with this tough. 1) If countered, you will lose your Imprint card. 2) You can lose a very reliable draw engine/control engine to an Oxidize/Rack and Ruin. But despite the two major drawbacks, this card has been doing great. Against Oath, I can imprint a Echoing Truth or StP for consistant threat removal. Against Stax and 5/3, I can imprint Oxidize or Hurkyl's Recall. This card is so versatile. It does everything from draw engine, to threat removal, to countering, to bounce, to tutor. And another plus, it beefs up your Dryad with every use.

Some might question the number of threats I run (4). Yes, it is lower. But many decks that run 6-8 threats don't have nearly as much card advantage or control. The decks simply can't do as much as this deck can do. Others might question me not using Serum Visions and Night's Whisper. I really don't like these two cards. One is a two mana sorcery that nets you one card. The other is a one mana sorcery that nets you nothing. I'd much rather use Intuition/AK (especially here, because of synergy with Scepters. Also, if you've never done it before, Intuition can set up one nasty Yawgmoth's Will).

There also seems to be quite a bit of debate over Disrupting Shoal. I think it's a great card, but it's much better in MonoU or Oath. I choose to run only two, as I can still get the stuff I fear most (Trinispheres, Crucibles, Tangle Wires, Draw7's), but it's not at the point where I have to rely on them for any countering.

Well, that's about it.

[Marton]

countering isochron scepter in no way removes the 'imprinted' card. the imprint ability applies when isochron scepter comes into play, thus, after resolution. In short, you play isochron, then if your opponent counters, well its dead, otherwise it goes into play and then you may imprint your brainstorms/ak.

[the boogie man]

The city of brass sounds really good, I might take out som other non-basics. what goes, though?

here is the current mana base:

4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
3 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
2 swamp
2 island
1 strip mine

4 on-color mox
1 black lotus

so im thinking
-1 tropical island
-1 flooded strand
and what do you guys think about the strip mine? I originally had it as an out to workshop as a tempo stealer, but this deck doesn't seem to do that, so maybe ill leave the strand in and take out the mine. Please comment!!

[alvin6688]

Well, Trinisphere just got banned - does that bring GAT back into contention? Thing about this is - Kevin Cron just decided that Sphere of Resistance was actually more effective than Trinisphere, and GAT hates both with a passion.

I still think GAT should be played as aggressively as possible, and go for the Yawgmoth's Will plan ASAP. In one of Smemmen's articles, he said that the goal of GAT players now is to bring it to 70-80% of original GAT's power. The only way to do that is to replicate what 4-Gush GAT did as closely as possible.

If you want to play a controlling version, you might a well play Oath or Hulk, because Dryad isn't that great in a deck that has to hold back because of its 4x Mana Drain.

I like the City of Brass plan, though I wouldn't go overboard. More basics is always a good thing. I don't like Strip Mine too much. It's kind of random, and GAT isn't always fast enough with the beats. However, in a deck with Daze or Fire/Ice, it looks useful. By the way, have any of you tested multiple Fire/Ice in 4C GAT? You can use consecutive Fire/Ices to buy MAJOR tempo. Fire deals with Goblin Welder, and Ice taps Mishra's Workshop for a turn, or taps down a key land against combo, or taps down an Akroma once or twice to help the race.

This is that took 4th place at a local tournament (NJ) over the weekend:

4 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog

4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Night's Whisper
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt

2 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Strip Mine

SB: Don't know

The goal is to replay Gush as mana times as possible with Fastbond out. You can Merchant Scroll and cast it once, the Regrowth it and cast it, then do it again with Yawgmoth's Will, then Cunning Wish for it afterwards (or with a Tog out). Without Fastbond, this isn't too great, and you just go with the normal GAT plan. But with Fastbond out, you can generate most of the used mana back.