New B&R List

[dicemanx]

Toad wrote:

I'm sorry for you that you can't understand that.

Toad, you are a barrel of laughs. I grasp your points just fine, except I don't live in a fantasy world ruled by hypothetical situations where every deck gets god hands and kills you by turn 2. And if Steve wants to accuse us of not doing enough "in the box thinking", that's cool with me. Last I checked we are having a blast in T1 events, we have a diverse metagame which we'll always extend to the US tourneys, and we also seem to do well where theory dictates that we should be getting annihilated by the US powerhouse decks. It didn't really surprise me, for example, that the Canadians comprised 20% of the field in Syracuse and yet we more than doubled that percentage in the top 16. I guess we don't do so badly by thinking so much "outside the box".

Your suggestion that Trinisphere adds to player interactivity was indeed, to put it in Shock Wave's terms, simply awesome. Fortunately for us, the DCI doesn't exactly follow arguments such as yours. If that leaves you angry, I sympathize. Oh wait, no I don't.

[Smmenen]

I don't think I am the only one irritated by the level of exchange occuring between people like Forsythe and Menendian, and there may be others speaking also. In particular, the part about knowing what cards to "stock" before they get dumped into the Vintage pool. When did Zherbus (to the DCI, the only team member who founded a critical Vintage web site) get a hotline to the DCI?

I'd like to say that this is horribly out of context.  I talked with Forsythe at Gencon AND SCG VA - where he played Oath and I persistently bugged him about Portal.   I have been bugging Forsythe about portal since before most of you started playing T1 - arguing that it should be legal for T1 and asking when it was going to happen.  I particularly became interested when I discovered that they oracalized the text of all portal cards in late 2003.


 It's not like I have a secret correspondance that no one else has access too.  I have been bugging him for years about Portal.  You could have been too.  We (kevin, me and others) also made LOTS of suggestions about prizes for T1 Champs and about printing more T1 foils (like Foil Yawgs Will).  Nothing insidious is going on - no big secret.  If you asked, I'm sure you would have found out.  I simply chose not to tell everyone I knew so that my team and friends could benefit.  Well you could say - Forsythe shouldn't have told me.  If you had someone bug him as much as I do, you might not say that

One of the cool things we argued for was that they should give away Foil Yawg Will to the Vintage Top 8.  Forsythe said that one problem with that is that they need to print a sufficient number to make it worth it.  And we said that what they could do is print them, give them to the top8 at Gencon, hold them in storage for six months and give them away as player rewards.  How cool would it be to have foil yawg Will!  Anyway, it's stuff like that.

[CrazyCarl]

I don't think I am the only one irritated by the level of exchange occuring between people like Forsythe and Menendian, and there may be others speaking also. In particular, the part about knowing what cards to "stock" before they get dumped into the Vintage pool. When did Zherbus (to the DCI, the only team member who founded a critical Vintage web site) get a hotline to the DCI?

I'd like to say that this is horribly out of context.  I talked with Forsythe at Gencon AND SCG VA - where he played Oath and I persistently bugged him about Portal.   I have been bugging Forsythe about portal since before most of you started playing T1 - arguing that it should be legal for T1 and asking when it was going to happen.  I particularly became interested when I discovered that they oracalized the text of all portal cards in late 2003.


 It's not like I have a secret correspondance that no one else has access too.  I have been bugging him for years about Portal.  You could have been too.  We (kevin, me and others) also made LOTS of suggestions about prizes for T1 Champs and about printing more T1 foils (like Foil Yawgs Will).  Nothing insidious is going on - no big secret.  If you asked, I'm sure you would have found out.  I simply chose not to tell everyone I knew so that my team and friends could benefit.  Well you could say - Forsythe shouldn't have told me.  If you had someone bug him as much as I do, you might not say that

One of the cool things we argued for was that they should give away Foil Yawg Will to the Vintage Top 8.  Forsythe said that one problem with that is that they need to print a sufficient number to make it worth it.  And we said that what they could do is print them, give them to the top8 at Gencon, hold them in storage for six months and give them away as player rewards.  How cool would it be to have foil yawg Will!  Anyway, it's stuff like that.

YAUS!  I've been stockpiling foil Yawgmoth's Wills for months!

And you guys are seriously worried about the wrong deck.  Meandeath?  Heh.  Revenge is absolutely nuts now.  It can still run 4 Dark Ritual and it doesn't have to worry about Trinisphere.  Good luck kids.

[Denney The Third]

Either that or combo will take the field.
anyways: trinisphere is the opposite of what creates playetr interaction. spells that alter some things that you can do inspire player interaction. but spells like orims chant or Trinisphere that shut down everything are the complete opposite of player interaction.

[Hi-Val]

Stephen, to my knowledge, owns one Imperial Seal.

Josh Reynolds, of everyone's favorite Team Shortbus, owns twenty Imperial Seals and has been stocking up for quite a while.

If we want to talk about people getting the "inside line" and exploiting it, don't look at Team Meandeck if you feel like pointing fingers. I have nothing against Josh and if I had the money, I would have stockpiled too, but if you're going to attack people, at least get the right targets here.

[Bram]

Or, alternatively, you could all stop pointing fingers since this subject is blueprint material for a flamewar, not to mention hugely off-topic.

Wanna discuss Meandeck's secret Batphoneline to Commissioner Forsythe? Feel like arguing the ethics of profiting from supposed insider knowledge? Do it on IRC. Or rather, not at all.

[Shock Wave]

Interaction is playing with cards that force your opponent to deal with them. Trinisphere does that, because It prevents the opponent from doing stuff with Trinisphere on the board.

!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

I just want to wish you all the best with your ongoing struggle against logic.

You do realize that playing a Trinisphere prevents your opponent from playing spells, right? How then, does that encourage interaction?

What sort of "interaction" can follow a 1st turn Trinisphere? Wasteland? FoW? Make a pile? Is this the sort of interaction that you're encouraging? Or are you going to insinuate your "3-land-Rack and Ruin-while my opponent-sits-on-his-Trinisphere" solution?

This is NOT interaction. Interaction, the idea that 2 players have ample opportunity to influence the outcome of a game, was being held at ransom by Stax. The methods by which the deck won had absolutely no respect for the opponent. It is fun and all to win, but I'd like to believe that I win my games because I've played extremely well, not because I prevented my opponent from playing his cards.

[Hi-Val]

Shock Wave, I'm just as concerned about this equivocation of terms as you are. I read through all eleven pages of this thread though and I couldn't find an instance where you said what the definition of interactivity was. Perhaps if you were to define that, you and Toad could agree on a definition and decide whether Trinisphere was interactive or not. That's what I'd do at least. It'd advance the discussion instead of heaping on flames.

[ChaosTheory]

I don't think it was the right time to restrict Trinisphere.
Sure, once the lock is down your opponent means nothing (most of the time), sure it was shitty when you could'nt do anything, but the card was'nt dominating anything.

I agree that player interaction is good, but Trinisphere, IMO, should not have gotten the axe because it forces non-player interaction.

And to all those who are predicting combo will dominate, only time will tell.
There are still alot of combo hosers out there besides 3Sphere.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I think debating what's already been decided ninety days before any change can be made, and before any evidence exists, is completely foolish. I'm shocked that so many venerable site members have felt the need to rehash this same topic AGAIN.

Please take it to PM and let people discuss the fallout in this bloated and flame-drawing thread. Instead of speculating on the past, speculate on what it means for the future. And be, like, constructive. Not, like, an unsubstantiated Cassandra claiming complete understanding of a phenomenon as incredibly complicated as the adaptability of a 6000+ card format with hundreds of clever people working to thrive in it.

And seriously,

Team Meandeck is not the DCI, and certainly doesn't have the information or the capacity to analyze or explain their decisions.

This is silly because (a) the DCI didn't follow even ONE Meandeck member's recommendation* as far as I can tell, and they staked out about six different stances if not more; (b) Forsythe mentioned Portal to Steve M. at GenCon while I and IIRC several other people were standing there listening, saying it was still unofficial, but probably coming our way eventually---so certainly not a private Meandeck conspiracy; (c) I think every Meandeck member on these boards has proven at least some capacity for analysis, even if you disagree with their particular conclusions. That was a pretty silly allegation to make, especially about (a) which you should have known by listening to their positions and noticing that they were not getting what they wanted, but also about (b) because you were not there and assumed conspiracy from communication. Item (c) was just poorly phrased, so you are forgiven.

* : Smmenen: Welder only, Cron: nothing, Zherbus: Trini+Ritual, Orlove: NUKE, Toad: nothing, etc. No "Trini only plz".

Now everyone from both sides of Lake Ontario and the Atlantic, go take a timeout in the corner. Come back when you're ready to make a completely original joke about Kerz's mom being upset that Trinisphere's throbbing ball doesn't work when tapped.

[Milton]

Name one restriction in the past five years that did harm to the format?  Give evidence, too.  One restriction that hampered innovation, hurt tournament attendence or inniated a "cascade of restrictions".

Also, I think it's wrong to believe that this lone restriciton will somehow cause a deep inbalance in the format, an inbalance that favors combo.  Trinisphere was not preventing combo from distorting the format.  The inconsistency of combo decks in a field of Force of Will is what limits combo.  Get around that inconsistency and you have a dominant combo deck.  Until a devestating one card combo is printed, though, it's not going to happen.  

Will this be bad for the format?  Hell no.  If you believe that July will roll around and the format will be so warped and distorted by this one, lone restriction then you clearly have no faith in the players of this format to find a foil to any dominant deck.  

The question I find most interesting, though, is this:

What will the direct and immediate impact of this restricion be?

a) Renovation of older decks that now are perhaps more competitive.

b) Innovation of newer deck designs in the face of a potentially new metagame.

c) Degeneration of existing combo decks.

My money is on a for a couple of months, then b in the long run.  That's how it's always been in our format.  Type I is a format where renovation is trendy, degeneration is the goal, but innovation wins the tournaments and pays the bills.

[VonDouche]

I had no idea that Vintage players could pay bills by playing magic...


Anyway, ritual and most combo components have been around much longer than trinisphere, and very few times has combo really been a dominant deck.  The challenge to play combo correctly when faced with any reactive cards is something that will always keep combo down infinitely more than trinisphere could ever have.  Yes it helped against combo, but duress and FOW have been helping more against it, and for a much longer time.  It may be that in a few months we will lose many combo staples, but right now I don't see 3sphere having that much influence on this issue.

[Grand Inquisitor]

My money is on a for a couple of months, then b in the long run. That's how it's always been in our format. Type I is a format where renovation is trendy, degeneration is the goal, but innovation wins the tournaments and pays the bills.

Extremely well put.

Name one restriction in the past five years that did harm to the format? Give evidence, too. One restriction that hampered innovation, hurt tournament attendence or inniated a "cascade of restrictions".

It's not that innovation was hampered, per se, but there have been a few restrictions where I think they went too far.  Unless they were really worried about its interaction with Mind's Desire, I think Gush wasn't necessary to restrict.  In early '04 Burning Wish probably could have stuck around so long as Lion's Eye Daimond was hit.  Neither of these led to prolonged periods of stagnation, but the restrictions insulated other decks that would have been weeded out if the 'dialectic' as Smennen puts it, was allowed to continue.

[Slay]

Trinisphere wasn't just a bad matchup for combo, it was an automatic loss for combo. The combo player has to build up three of its vulnerable and scarce lands while trying to find an answer. The combo decks that couldn't died swiftly. Especially the ones running Land Grant.

Killing off the 3Sphere would allow for a greater diversification of combo decks, and would encourage very fast combo decks built around Land Grants. I think that's a good thing for the format in general.
-Slay

[Saucemaster]

Also, I think it's wrong to believe that this lone restriciton will somehow cause a deep inbalance in the format, an inbalance that favors combo.  Trinisphere was not preventing combo from distorting the format.  The inconsistency of combo decks in a field of Force of Will is what limits combo.  Get around that inconsistency and you have a dominant combo deck.  Until a devestating one card combo is printed, though, it's not going to happen.

Force of Will hasn't been what's keeping the combo decks in check since AT LEAST the advent of Dragon and Rector Trix.  Control has had to pack serious hate if it even caught a whiff of combo approaching for the last couple of years.  And they DID print a devastating one card combo.  We call it Tendrils of Agony.

What I think Trinisphere did was not so much hold combo down as it did make combo take different forms.  Combo had to be either fast enough to race Trinisphere (the only case in which it begins to fall under your description above), or it had to pack 4 Force of Will, multiple bounce spells, and a lot of land.  That left us with absurdities like Meandeck Tendrils or "fair" decks like Dragon and TPS.  The problem with the slower, more resilient combo decks, like Dragon and TPS, is that without being able to leverage early-game pressure to force opponents to compromise their deck engines just to hold them at bay, they become much more susceptible to a) faster, more resilient counter strategies, or b) game-winning hate cards.

As for what happens to combo now that the pressure to either race 3sphere or play under its rules is gone, I have no idea.  It's hard to remember a time when combo didn't have to worry about Trinisphere.  It may very well be that with the drastically increased power of the Drain decks in the format, the combo decks can't compete even with the extra breathing room.  I'm actually eager to see what happens.

[Diakonov]

Trinisphere wasn't just a bad matchup for combo, it was an automatic loss for combo. The combo player has to build up three of its vulnerable and scarce lands while trying to find an answer. The combo decks that couldn't died swiftly. Especially the ones running Land Grant.

Killing off the 3Sphere would allow for a greater diversification of combo decks, and would encourage very fast combo decks built around Land Grants. I think that's a good thing for the format in general.
-Slay

Being a TPS player, I know this is not true.  Yes, Trinisphere is a pain to deal with, but hardly unstoppable.  Land Grant based combo gets screwed, but other combo decks will do exactly what you said: wait for three mana, play something to get rid of Trinisphere.

Also, I completely fail to see how very fast Land Grant combo decks are a good thing for the format.  It is strictly because of the presence of these decks that I didn't want to see Trini get restricted.

[Denney The Third]

Your assuming that by the time you drop 2 lands you opponent has not
A) played a smokestack and killed your land(s).
B) played a sundering titan and killed your lands
c) played a tangle wire and make your lands irrellevant
or d) gotten a crucible lock.
Most likely by his turn 3.. or 4 if he went first, I think he would have these.
That's why stacks with first turn TRinisphere should allways be a kill..unless the stax player is incredibly unlucky or unskilled.

[Jacob Orlove]

This has gone on long enough. Closed.