New B&R List

[Magi]

A thrill of hope, the weary soul rejoices,
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn.
Fall on your knees, O hear the angel voices!
O night divine!




celebrate good times come on!

[Marton]

yeah cardhaus does that a lot. I remember 8 months ago i ordered 3 intuitions from them (despise them having been listed there for weeks). As soon as it came the time to get my card they informed me that they were out of stock but they could get some in minter condition for double the price. I have emails to prove it. Since then, I have been extremely dissappointed by them. I hope for you that you will not have to learn the same way I did.

[Jhaggs]

It's about time that  Portal, Portal Second Age, Portal Three Kingdoms, and Starter are availible for vintage play.  Now that these cards are at our disposal, how readily accessable are these cards?  Were these sets printed in mass or just as a limited release?  I'm pretty sure that I have no cards from these sets and having looked on ebay for tutor and seal, there dosen't seem to be a lot of auctions for them.  Are these cards more limited than those from Antiquities?

I realize that lot of people still need to dig through their boxes to see if they have cards from these sets, but who honestly purchased them to begin with (besides dandan?)  I can't remember any stores that even sell these packs.

 Props to the collectors for sticking to their guns on these sets.  It'll be interesting to see if seal reaches triple digits in auctions.

[Hi-Val]

By the way:

GOGOGO JUNGLE LION STOMPY.

It might actually be a decent metagame choice now that the Giant Balls are gone, but you didn't hear it from me!

[Marton]

magictraders says the usual rate for imperial seal usually is a bit below 25$. But there were only 10 auctions on all of ebay in the last month. So do your calculations, I am pretty confident that starting from the next ebay auctions that finishes up will already be in the 3 digits. There's currently only one auction, and heres the current price increases since the announcement:

(remember that this is for a *chinese* imperial seal)
(also keep in mind that there is about 3 days remaining to this auction)
(oh, and the seller is in china)

   hellfyre2 ( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49)    US $66.00    01-Mar-05 00:23:32 EST    
   harshvengeance ( 113Feedback score is 100 to 499)    US $65.00    01-Mar-05 00:22:09 EST    
   hellfyre2 ( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49)    US $65.00    01-Mar-05 00:23:17 EST    
   hellfyre2 ( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49)    US $50.00    01-Mar-05 00:17:50 EST    
   mageslime ( 790Feedback score is 500 to 999)about meGo to member's eBay Store    US $47.00    01-Mar-05 00:20:50 EST    
   meadi8or ( 125Feedback score is 100 to 499)    US $45.00    01-Mar-05 00:16:36 EST    
   mathie ( 65Feedback score is 50 to 99)    US $41.00    01-Mar-05 00:12:18 EST    
   vertigo525 ( 74Feedback score is 50 to 99)    US $25.00    27-Feb-05 23:04:22 EST    
   mathie ( 65Feedback score is 50 to 99)    US $21.00    01-Mar-05 00:11:13 EST    
   hutch8729 ( 0 )New eBay Member (less than 30 days)    US $15.00    01-Mar-05 00:09:31 EST    
   loveli-love-li ( 1 )New eBay Member (less than 30 days)    US $12.50    26-Feb-05 22:03:44 EST    
   solkanar_the_swamp_king ( 163Feedback score is 100 to 499)    US $7.59    27-Feb-05 05:51:20 EST


If you compare the numbers to, for example, library of alexandria (selected because of set and fact that it is also restricted).

Card/Figure                     Price StdDev Average    High     Low  Change Raw N
----                            ----- ------ -------  -------  ------ ------ -----
Library of Alexandria,         161.36, 21.49, 162.50, 219.97, 100.00,  0.73,  68
Imperial Seal,                  26.92, 18.66,  34.01,  62.25,   3.50,  0.00,  10

since the library of alexandria are about 7 times more available than imperial seals, my guess would be that it's very likely to go in the 3 digits.

[onelovemachine]

The only thing I truly want to speculate at for the time being is why trinisphere got the axe.  Perhaps the DCI didn't like the idea of random guy winning off playing workshop trinisphere.  Why trini and not ritual?  Maybe playing combo is harder than playing trinisphere to win.  I really don't know.

[Imsomniac101]

The only thing that I can say to the people who whined about Trinisphere is..... SCREW YOU!!

Now Dark Ritual will get restricted and the meta will return to 1997 where Mana Drain rules. If that ever happens I will swear to never touch another magic card again.

[Smmenen]

If Ritual gets restricted, I PROMISE YOU SO MUCH, that Drain will also get it.    And Vintage will be horrible.

[Machinus]

If Ritual gets restricted, I PROMISE YOU SO MUCH, that Drain will also get it.    And Vintage will be horrible.

So don't design any disgusting combo decks, and the DCI won't be tempted to reformat the...uh, the format.

[Smmenen]

I think the decision they made to restrict Trinisphere was full of risks that could lead to a restriction cascade.  

I think we had finally come to deal with Trinisphere in the format.

[jcb193]

since the library of alexandria are about 7 times more available than imperial seals, my guess would be that it's very likely to go in the 3 digits.

I think initally you are right, but Imperial's ability to be played is pretty narrow, especially since Vampiric Tutor gets cut so often.  I think the reason the price will be driven up is because every T1 player will have to get at least one for their collection, on the off chance they might need it.  And whatever price they drive Imperial up to in the next few months, will probably hold.  As depreciation of restrcited cards is pretty rare.

That said, i'm starting to get shivers of 1998 all over again......is it premature to fear the onslaught of combo?  Or are they just trying to insure that Shoals is played?  

[dusts off the old academy-hate deck]

[Komatteru]

So don't design any disgusting combo decks, and the DCI won't be tempted to reformat the...uh, the format.

This is like asking Rich Shay not to play CS, or any reasonable person to stop breathing really...

[onelovemachine]

Is the DCI making a huge mistake?  I was seriously surprised, as I expect a few people were, that trini gets restricted and nothing else.  I could have expected trini and friends to get restricted, and I could guess that nothing would have been.  By itself it seems to leave us with a very unbalanced metagame.  At least the metagame as I see it ignoring the decks that rode to victory on the back of trinisphere.  I, like you Steve, play combo passionately and I can't help but think blue based control doesn't stand a chance in hell.  

I wonder what the canadians are going to say about this......

[dandan]

It's about time that  Portal, Portal Second Age, Portal Three Kingdoms, and Starter are availible for vintage play.  Now that these cards are at our disposal, how readily accessable are these cards?  Were these sets printed in mass or just as a limited release?  I'm pretty sure that I have no cards from these sets and having looked on ebay for tutor and seal, there dosen't seem to be a lot of auctions for them.  Are these cards more limited than those from Antiquities?

I realize that lot of people still need to dig through their boxes to see if they have cards from these sets, but who honestly purchased them to begin with (besides dandan?)  I can't remember any stores that even sell these packs.

Just for the record, my attempts to get Portal legal in Vintage has NOTHING to do with how many Portal cards I have (I think I have about 100 Portal/P2/P3/Starter cards total and no Imperial Seals, Personal Tutors or even friggin Jungle Lions). I have 1 Cruel Tutor. So sue me.

Vintage is the format where you can use your cards FULL STOP

I think we will see an increase in supply of Portal cards because so far there has been very little demand. Just like any new 'hot' card, I would urge you to print a few proxies and playtest first and if you still want them, buy when the feeding frenzy settles down. Imperial Seal is good but it is the worst restricted tutor bar Personal Tutor (I personally don't count Entomb as a tutor) and isn't an automatic inclusion in all combo decks. Personal Tutor fetches you Walk or Will so looks good at first but that Sorcery speed and turn delay will annoy you (do you cast Mystical Tutor in your turn very often?). They are skill testers, like Spoils, very good in the right deck, very bad in the wrong deck.

A lot of Portal cards are in the hands of people who were newbies at the time. Many of these people quit Magic, many banished their 'banned' cards to the depths of their darkest display boxes. I suspect that many of these people will unearth Portal now that is (or soon will be) legal.

[Machinus]

As a general prison tool, SoR isn't so bad that its unplayable. At the very least, it fits in very well with the prison game plan, is generally good against many decks, and is a short-term answer for combo that shop decks can RELIABLY play on the first turn. Obviously shop decks are going to lose their position of power, but they are nowhere NEAR out of contention, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Eric or Kevin or some other stax player top 8 with shop.dec at the next SCG. (Chalice is good too).

[Shock Wave]

Wow.

Despite the lack of tournament dominance, the DCI has restricted 3sphere just as the meta has adjusted to it.  3sphere isn't that good when its not followed by a Crucilock-which is what decks have prepared for by actually playing basic lands (OMFG-BASIC LANDS!).  By preventing Crucilock, 3sphere isn't that good.  The past few tournaments I have noticed this.  I have also learned that perhaps an infinite amount of bitching can get a card restricted, even as the meta adapts to it and as it fails to put up dominant numbers.  Cron's deck with only 3 Trinispheres shows that 3sphere isn't the god damned nuts that it used to be because people build around it.

Trinisphere is what gave aggro a chance versus combo.  Without it aggro is now dead.  MWS has lost infinite stock as a powerful card and it will become a Dark Rit vs. Mana Drain format.

Before anyone says anything about "sphere or resistance is good"-they are wrong.  Sphere of Resistance is ABSOLUTE SHIT compared to 3sphere against storm combo decks.  Combo can now spend its 3 bounce spells main plus whatever was in the board towards winning the control matchup.  I feel a wave of combo coming over and the restriction of Dark Ritual in 3 months.

Time to go build Deathlong...

My opinion: Read the above post, and rephrase everything stated to the exact opposite. My contention is that everything stated above is either grossly exaggerated or entirely incorrect, specifically:

"the DCI has restricted 3sphere just as the meta has adjusted to it"

The meta "adjusted" ? How do you adjust against to a first turn 3s? Fow, Waste, or lose? Don't even try that basic land bullshit, that argument is honestly for only the most misdirected of bird brains.

"By preventing Crucilock, 3sphere isn't that good"

Really? So Shop -> 3s vs. Control Slaver isn't that great of a play? Last I heard, a double Time Walk is pretty solid.

"I have also learned that perhaps an infinite amount of bitching can get a card restricted"

... and I have learned that no matter what restrictions get made, there's people like yourself that will bitch anyways.

"I feel a wave of combo coming over and the restriction of Dark Ritual in 3 months."

I guess that CotV doesn't exist in your parts.

[Magi]

If Ritual gets restricted, I PROMISE YOU SO MUCH, that Drain will also get it.    And Vintage will be horrible.

So don't design any disgusting combo decks, and the DCI won't be tempted to reformat the...uh, the format.

I know what must be done

Smmenen and any traces of his uber magic genes must be purged from the gene pool.


I will spring for airfare, and I can provide bladed weapons, and I can possible borrow KandyKid's morningstar. If you prefer some sort of gun you must supply that on your own.

Any takers?

[cssamerican]

It just seams strange that you would restrict a card that slows the game down, and every once in a while wins a game on it own power. (Statistically first turn Trini only happens 20% of games, and that doesn't mean it resolves or wins the game when it does resolve) Then turn around and give the format two more ways to get Yawgmoth's Will (A card that all but guarantees victory upon resolution), it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

But I guess will see if the DCI knows what its doing soon enough, especially since evryone and his brother will try to bust the format open with some form of a storm deck.

[Smmenen]

Wow.

Despite the lack of tournament dominance, the DCI has restricted 3sphere just as the meta has adjusted to it.  3sphere isn't that good when its not followed by a Crucilock-which is what decks have prepared for by actually playing basic lands (OMFG-BASIC LANDS!).  By preventing Crucilock, 3sphere isn't that good.  The past few tournaments I have noticed this.  I have also learned that perhaps an infinite amount of bitching can get a card restricted, even as the meta adapts to it and as it fails to put up dominant numbers.  Cron's deck with only 3 Trinispheres shows that 3sphere isn't the god damned nuts that it used to be because people build around it.

Trinisphere is what gave aggro a chance versus combo.  Without it aggro is now dead.  MWS has lost infinite stock as a powerful card and it will become a Dark Rit vs. Mana Drain format.

Before anyone says anything about "sphere or resistance is good"-they are wrong.  Sphere of Resistance is ABSOLUTE SHIT compared to 3sphere against storm combo decks.  Combo can now spend its 3 bounce spells main plus whatever was in the board towards winning the control matchup.  I feel a wave of combo coming over and the restriction of Dark Ritual in 3 months.

Time to go build Deathlong...

My opinion: Read the above post, and rephrase everything stated to the exact opposite. My contention is that everything stated above is either grossly exaggerated or entirely incorrect, specifically:

"the DCI has restricted 3sphere just as the meta has adjusted to it"

The meta "adjusted" ? How do you adjust against to a first turn 3s? Fow, Waste, or lose? Don't even try that basic land bullshit, that argument is honestly for only the most misdirected of bird brains.

"By preventing Crucilock, 3sphere isn't that good"

Really? So Shop -> 3s vs. Control Slaver isn't that great of a play? Last I heard, a double Time Walk is pretty solid.

"I have also learned that perhaps an infinite amount of bitching can get a card restricted"

... and I have learned that no matter what restrictions get made, there's people like yourself that will bitch anyways.

"I feel a wave of combo coming over and the restriction of Dark Ritual in 3 months."

I guess that CotV doesn't exist in your parts.

Rich, the fact of the matter is that decks WERE adjusting to Trinisphere by employing tools like Rack and Ruin and maindecks designed to be able to win under a 3Sphere that didn't come down before you took your turn.  If they hadn't, then Kevin would have run 4 3Spheres, I think and no Sphere of Resistence.  

In addition, if you think CoTV is even half as good as 3Sphere against Combo, then you are the bird brain.  But we shall see  I have played dozens and dozens of games of Combo against Mr. Stax himself.  And I can report that my combo decks actually didn't just die to Stax becuase I learned how to maximize my chances agianst 3sphere.  Now that I did that, do you think I will have any trouble against fourth tier lock components like Sphere of Resistence and Chalice of hte Void?  Frankly, Chains of Mephistopholes is MUCH stronger than Chalice OR Sphere of Resistence against Meandeath.

[Shock Wave]

Rich, the fact of the matter is that decks WERE adjusting to Trinisphere by employing tools like Rack and Ruin and maindecks designed to be able to win under a 3Sphere that didn't come down before you took your turn.  If they hadn't, then Kevin would have run 4 3Spheres, I think and no Sphere of Resistence.  

In addition, if you think CoTV is even half as good as 3Sphere against Combo, then you are the bird brain.  But we shall see  I have played dozens and dozens of games of Combo against Mr. Stax himself.  And I can report that my combo decks actually didn't just die to Stax becuase I learned how to maximize my chances agianst 3sphere.  Now that I did that, do you think I will have any trouble against fourth tier lock components like Sphere of Resistence and Chalice of hte Void?  Frankly, Chains of Mephistopholes is MUCH stronger than Chalice OR Sphere of Resistence against Meandeath.

I really don't care about what is the best solution against MeanDeath. The point is, there are solutions. Who ever said anything about CotV being as good as Trinisphere against combo? The point is that it is still a very useful tool. What about Null Rod? What about, as you say, Chains? BTW, when was the last time MeanDeath won anything anyways?

I encourage you all to go and build your MeanDeath abominations. I think WotC has made a great call and that any further changes to the format (aka Dark Ritual) can wait.

[xrizzo]

All i know is, if the store doesn't send me my seal i will be quite angry    I DID send my 51.50 by paypal already.

I bought the same one a couple hours ago too!  I wonder who will get it?  They really should have an inventory adjust function...

The only thing that I can say to the people who whined about Trinisphere is..... SCREW YOU!!

Now Dark Ritual will get restricted and the meta will return to 1997 where Mana Drain rules. If that ever happens I will swear to never touch another magic card again.

I seem to recall combo and dark ritual not dominating the world before trinisphere was restricted.  Have people forgotten all about combo hate?  Every single color has access to GREAT combo hate.

While I won't name them all, the first of each color that pop into my head are:
Green: Root Maze
Red: Pyrostatic Pillar
Blue: Arcane Lab
White: Rule of Law
Black: Planar Void
Artifact: Chalice of the Void

Look, wizards will re-evaluate the list in three months.  You can't use your new tutors until then anyway, so lets see what happens.  If, as many of you claim, we were able to 'innovate' and 'adapt' to trinisphere, which is now a restricted card, then we should be able to do the same with dark ritual.

[onelovemachine]

I really don't care about what is the best solution against MeanDeath. The point is, there are solutions.

The question isn't whether or not there are solutions.  Tps found solutions to 3sphere and workshop decks in general in the form of rebuild, hurkyll's and chain of vapor.  Trinisphere still stopped the other combo decks, just not the one that packed fifty bigillion basics/fetches and maindeck artifact hate.  Now that trinisphere is gone we have a whole wave of ultrafast combo decks that have absolutely nothing to fear.  Sphere of resistance works to an extent, but I have comboed out from under it without ever even removing it.  Challice of the void and other established hate will try to do their part against the coming sea of combo but more than likely unsuccessfully.  

We already know that draw seven, deathlong, doomsday, meandeck tendrils, and probably others that I can't remember exist.  What about the decks we haven't seen yet?  Or the ones that were just destroyed by trinisphere?  Arcbound ravager is dead in standard but I guarantee that guy finds his way to the top tables in the coming months.  Along with lots of dark rituals of course.

[Vegeta2711]

I love how it's been less than 3 hours since the announcement and already 'omg we're ALL DOOMED" has already begun.

Right now only like 4 things are clear.
1. No more 3sphere. Yay.
2. Combo has some new toys to play with
3. Combo hate replaces artifact hate in most boards
4. Ravager becomes somewhat playable

Time will tell the rest, but jeez can everyone please shut the hell up for a week? Ugh.

[onelovemachine]

To me it seems that an interesting development in the vintage scene has surfaced.  Why wouldn't I want to jump online minutes after the new restrictions and argue with everyone about how the format is going to be?  At least our discussion is somewhat productive in that we know what each other are thinking.

[Shock Wave]

The question isn't whether or not there are solutions.

Well, I'm afraid I disagree. I feel that is exactly the issue at hand. You want to play MeanDeath and win? Sure, go for it. At least you'll have to rack your brain instead of just whipping out 2 card dumbness on your first turn that any monkey is capable of.

What are you talking about all these combo decks for? When was the last time any MeanDeath/Doomsday/etc. did anything? Yay, 2 events: Waterbury and GenCon, both times piltoed by very competent players. Well they be more prevalent now? Definitely. However, no 12 year old zit head is going to beat me with those decks, that's for sure. That's the whole point of the restriction: It's for the purpose of allowing people to actually play the damn game.

[Vegeta2711]

You're right. Fuck posting lists or discussion actual decks. Let's just hypothize about how great combo is and how awful everything else obviously is. And how bad every hoser in the format is and that nothing will stop combo, becuase it's easy to refute that with good old 'Solutions don't matter' with no rhyme or reason behind it!

[Smmenen]

To be fair though, alot of people have alot of reason to be pretty upset.  Good Reason.   This is not Berserk.  Berserk was completely misunderstood in terms of its potential application.    If you scroll back and read the thread on berserk (which I participated, so I remember), you'll see that.  There is reason to suggest that this may be a huge mistake.  They have restricted a card now in this format based on interaction concerns entirely, and not dominance or distortion.  If Workshop decks fall out of the format almost entirely, which given their trend on Sylvan's statistics is the logical prediction, the format will rapidly consolidate and shift.  Those shifts can lead to a restriction cascade.   I'm not saying they will, but there is good, rationale, logical reasons for suggesting that it might.  The risk is there.  I'm not saying it will happen immediately, but a decision has been made which could trigger long term ramifications that are not good.  We should be aware of those risks and realize them now so that we can monitor the outcome.

[Shock Wave]

They have restricted a card now in this format based on interaction concerns entirely, and not dominance or distortion.

Dominance? Maybe not where you're from, and maybe only because not enough people were playing Stax decks. We're entering subjective grounds here when we talk about "distortion" or "dominance". Let's just put a sock in this thread and let the game tell the story.

[Smmenen]

Actually, the whole purpose of dominance is that it is an objective criteria.  Based upon Sylvan's work, Sylvan and I both agree that 35% or so of the metagame is the dominance threshold based upon GroAtog's showings.  Distortion is misleading becuase it is a term of art here (meaning it has a non-obvious definition)  It is really overprominance of a card.  As you will find out Friday, they restricted Trinisphere becuase they were getting too many complaints about the lack of interaction.  Under any non-interactive standard of restriction, you will see that trinisphere's numbers have been falling and that it is a good 40 cards BELOW mana drain in terms of frequency in top 8s.  That is troubling.

[Shock Wave]

Actually, the whole purpose of dominance is that it is an objective criteria.

You are aware that while everyone appreciates Phil's work, the numbers generated do not carry a very profound implication in this matter. Take Waterbury for example. There were NO Workshops there. Does that mean that the card is less playable, because it was almost non-existant?

There are an infinite number of factors that contribute to an archetype's success, many of which are not illustrated by hacking out tournament data. In any case, PM me to continue this discussion. I refuse to continue further proliferation in this thread. This discussion is really pointless.