New B&R List

[Kasuras]

Although my first reaction was one of joy, the emotions later on were mostly those of fear. I didn't like playing versus Trinisphere, and therefore I am happy that the card left and I don't have to see that shit again. Don't get me wrong: I hated the card. On the other hand; I have no idea how the metagame is going to look like now, and that scares me. I like having stability, although Trinisphere was not fair: at least I knew what to expect from the metagame.

However, this was a pretty radical change which will make some decks playable again and thus an increase in discussion will probably arrise, and that is a good thing.

It's a shame I was working on an article which makes no sense at all now, ah well.

[rozetta]

Could Suicide Virus now be playable? Did Mike Long have the clairvoyance to see this happening? Ravager and artifact lands move from Type 2 to Type 1

[Smmenen]

Suicide Virus is DEFINATELY playable now.

[JACO]

Rich's, Steve's, and my views are all well known by this point. The fact is:

I think we had finally come to deal with Trinisphere in the format.

They have restricted a card now in this format based on interaction concerns entirely, and not dominance or distortion.

Trinisphere was not dominating fields of tournaments. It might have dominated single games or matches, as many strategies in the format are prone to do, but this is not out of the ordinary by Vintage standards.

It's going to be a long, but surely interesting Summer.

[Toad]

:<

[combo_dude]

It's good that it's been restricted, I didn't like it either. But surely if it turns out that Ritual combo is winning over and over again, then they can unrestrict Trinisphere again? I agree that if Ritual went, Drain would go - but I suspect that re-allowing the Sphere would do plenty to counteract that without making the format horrible again. In particular, given that the tutors would become legal (if they get used), I expect that the complaint that it is killing combo would not be so strong, since combo would be stronger than before.

[Conan_barberarn]

Combo will not be stronger because of this, on the opposite, the worst kind of combo (MWS=>3sphere) is now restricted. In my view, STAX was never such a good foil to combo anyway. What STAX (thanks to 3sphere) did was to hate out combos best foils (Hulk with duress and to some extent fish) which may now be viable again. Instead of facing 3sphere every other game, combo will now face FoW every game and duress/stifle/waste/daze/nullrod/CotV every other game. All artifact hate which used to be sided will now be combo hate instead. I don't see this as an improvement for combo...

I dont agree that basics were the ultimate anwer to trini either. There is no answer to a 1st turn trini. If it's followed by a CoW then yes, basics help to some extent, but it's not likely that you'll have 3 basics/fetch in your opening 9 cards. If it's followed by a smokestack, that's game. If it's followed by a wire, that's close to game. If it's followed by tinker/jar/ancestral/walk/tfk/strip that's close to game. If you waste his shop he still has 5 more lands that give more thatn one mana+ he is one landdrop ahead which means he'll be able to accelerate out of the lock well before you can.

MWS=>3sphere? Good riddance!! Thank you DCI!!

/Gustav

[dicemanx]

Good riddance. Trinisphere was an absolute abomination, and really has no business existing in T1.  The card not only was massively distorting and had a stifling effect on the format, but it also reduced many games and matches down to a die roll. Out of all the combo decks that ever existed in T1, first turn Trini has got to rank up there as one of the all-time worst combo.

There really isn't much else to say. I expect many to come here and complain that combo will have free reign, but people perhaps don't appreciate just how many tools are available to all the top archetypes to keep combo in check. The DCI apparently feels the same way.

[Toad]

The DCI apparently feels the same way.

The DCI actually just showed us they had no clue about what happens in the constructed formats. They randomly banned Trinisphere in Type One with no actual reason to do it based on format distortance and domination. And they banned billions of cards in Standard because they probably had no clue on what to ban in order to hinder Ravager enough.

[dicemanx]

The DCI apparently feels the same way.

The DCI actually just showed us they had no clue about what happens in the constructed formats. They randomly banned Trinisphere in Type One with no actual reason to do it based on format distortance and domination. And they banned billions of cards in Standard because they probably had no clue on what to ban in order to hinder Ravager enough.

Actually, the DCI has a very good track record, so I wouldn't be so quick to complain. T1 is an amazing, exciting format with incredible diversity, and was in part created via restrictions over the years without the use of perfectly defined "dominance/distortion" criteria. It just had some black spots that needed to be addressed (turn 1 combo, the worst offender being turn 1 Trini).

Plus, you are wrong to suggest that Trinisphere wasn't format distorting.

[Freelancer]

Thank god this abomination is gone. It completely annihelates interaction (don't come with basic land shit) and the only viable answer to first turn trini is force of will (wich is accidentially a answer to anything first turn)

About the dominance off ritual based combo decks: First off I doubt they will dominate and that trini kept them in check...Why? take TPS for instance it has better answers to first turn trini than most decks in vintage, and its a combo deck...(force of will, basics, rebuild, chain to some extend) Yes indeed faster combo decks now have to fear 1 card less than before but they still have to be prepared to face much more other hate cards in the forms off pillars rods and other storm combo hate cards...These will also be much more prevalent in sideboards since decks don't have to devote 4/5 places in there sideboard to artifact hate anymore...

Interaction concerns are IMHO more than enough reason for restriction, this is a interactive game any card that the moment it is played (turn 1) essentially makes the game one sided for 2 turns minimum should not be allowed...
Ofcourse DCI has to be carefull and keep a close eye at combo but this is by no means a reason NOT to restrict trinisphere...Even if it means a spree off restrictions (wich I doubt will happen anytime soon in the future) than maybe vintage is just to overpowered...(yes I know about the ancient old argument off vintage should be powerfull but enough is enough)


Not to mention that this will also make non-shop tempo decks viable again (namely fish)...

[Bram]

Whatever. Really, as long as they don't hit my shops, I'm happy (and that's SOLELY a financial consideration). I don't care either way; a new 'best deck' is bound to pop up and I'll just netdeck & play it, like I did after ever other restriction round.

Suicide Virus is DEFINATELY playable now.

While I agree it's certainly better right now, it still dies to Null Rod. And Null Rod, while not having seen much play lately, may well recieve more attention again now. And look at it on the bright side: Ravagers will be SO cheap after the extended hype has come and gone ^^

[dexter]

FINALLY!

The day i waited for over a year has finally come, trinisphere got the so welldeseved axe. No more will i need to suffer against the random kid who has borrowed his deck randomly FTKíng me with Workshop + Trinisphere.


Thanks WotC for doing the right thing.

[Nantuko Rice]

(Just read the first 2 pages of this, and then skimmed the rest to see if anyone said anything about chalice)

I'm sad to see Trinisphere go... because the metagame just adjusted to it and it's popularity has been going down. Yet I do feel that Smemnarch is right, the card was banned due to interactivity.

Also, Combo will NOT be dominant. Decks still have chalice of the void, and chalice of the void is still some good against combo. Chalice for one and all those new tutors that everyone will be playing are gone.

Everyone cried for chalice's restriction when it was first released, but there are differences between how chalice and trinisphere interact. Chalice shuts down a deck full of 1-mana cards (ten-land stompy and ankh-sligh) and so does trinisphere but they are different in how they affect interactivity between players. Chalice doesn't always completely shut out a deck.

[jpmeyer]

I freaking love all the jargon, buzzwords, and euphemisms in this thread.  "Domination".  "Distortion".  "Adapt".  "Interaction".  Oh, and my new favorite one "Restriction Cascade".

Also, let the speculation begin!

[Windfall]

I wanted my post to be one word, "bullshit."  However, knowing that would not be very productive, I will just say I'm with Toad 100% right now.

I just spent the last two months trying to make a good build of Stax that can beat both Tendrils and Welders, and it was a long road of testing and scouring of the card pool.  The past couple of weeks led my teamate and myself to a mono-red deck that was actually quite good, and on its way to getting even better...

...and now it's all for nought because Wizards decided to ruin two very promising archetypes for no good reason.  It's really good when everyone's hard work and innovation on Stax and 5/3 variants go down the drain, and it's even better that a lot of cards we all bought drop in price.

So, my attitude is that I'm not happy about this at all.  Shops, Drains, and Rituals were all holding the format together in a way - all keeping each other in check.  No longer.

     ~Mark B.

[rologa]

I don't understand why people are complaining about the power that combo will have with the restriction of trinisphere. It seems that trini were played from the begining of magic and before nobody can win without a combo deck. It seems nobody remember that when the better and more abusive combo deck of all times (long) were played didn't dominate the tournament scene and only few people were able to drive it to win. If I remember well aggro-control and not combo were dominating the american tournaments. Why people like bitching before start to play and see what happens?
What is curious is that the people that complain more about the restriction are americans, one of the places where trini were less played and when each time some people played it in a tournament he made top 8. I think people have to theorize less and play more and not to take the words of some good players and writers as if they were the absolute truth.
Nothing is more boring that playing against a first turn trinisphere, I'm happy with the restriction. This restriction will make more decks playable and this will mean more innovation. something always is good for the format.

[Bulls on Parade]

Why didn't they restrict Grim Tutor? Isn't it a lot better than Death Wish in that it lets you MD Will? I think an iteration of this deck will be decent:

3 Grim Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Timetwister
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Necropotence
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Brainstorm
5 Moxes
1 Sol Ring
1 Crop Rotation
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual

And by decent, I mean totally awesome. I don't think it's going to dominate, but damn. Sorry to be posting a decklist so soon, I just wanted to have an example to back up what I was saying- I don't really consider it untested since I've been playing the deck with Death Wishes for so long that I like to think I can predict how this will run. Savagely.

[Bastian]

You missed Imperial Seal  

[dandan]

I thought they would restrict Grim as well as Personal and Imperial Seal. However Grim Tutor has not proven to be format distorting in Vintage and is far from being an auto-restrict like Imperial Seal. It does appear to be superior to Death Wish in many decks but if we are looking at 3 CC tutors, is it better than Cunning Wish, Intuition or even TFK?

I am actually pleased that they haven't restricted it. Being good enough to justify more than 1 copy in a combo deck is hardly sufficient criteria for restriction. It is a very interesting tutor for Legacy too.

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

I don't understand why all this hype is going around for Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor looks much better, now Deathlong can MD Will. And have 4 of these, 1 Imperial Seal, Demonic/Vamp/Mystical and probably a chromatic-sphere like card (to ensure you can kill the same turn). I just went down to my local cardshop and bought 12 Imperial Seal for 4 dollars, I will sell 10 of them to Mana Drainers for 10$ a pop. PM me if you are interested, not to meaning to spam, sorry Zherheberuserus (I should read that primer....). I don't know why they think Imperial Tutor is insane, it's like a Vampiric Tutor except a sorcery.... Right? The other one that is restricted, that gets you sorceries, that's very interesting. We all know the best bombs in combo are typically sorcery-speed. Both will definently see play.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I freaking love all the jargon, buzzwords, and euphemisms in this thread. "Domination". "Distortion". "Adapt". "Interaction". Oh, and my new favorite one "Restriction Cascade"

...and "adjudicate".

"Adjudicate?"



I think the trinisphere argument can (but hopefully won't) be argued indefinitely.  It's gone, let it rest.  I'm really interested to see what innovation comes out of this.  Despite their track record, I can't help but feel that many of Wizard's recent decisions are actually machiavellian ploys to push people towards 1.5.

Time will tell.

[Nazdakka]

No more Trinisphere seems pretty good. Speculation and/or whinging about combo domination is quite entertaining but ultimately pointless... you can only play the format you are given. If I was in charge of the DCI I might have hit Ritual and Drain as well, working on the principle of hitting the three main pillars of the format relatively equally, and then seeing if Smmemen's apocalyptic predictions of turn 2 combo dominance come true. If they do, then restrict more stuff. This is not the first time we've seen a restriction on grounds other than dominance though -  Long.dec was famously restricted into oblivion without coming near the sort of numbers people are quoting to describe 'dominance'. Long was instead killed because it was stupidly broken and added a significant dependance on the dice roll to many matches.

Portal: There have been general calls for legalising Portal for a long time now, and now people are complaining? None of those tutors are better than the currently borderline Mirage tutors, and so I don't see a serious problem.

Type 2: Wow. Hitting Ravager AND Disciple AND the Artifact Lands seems a little excessive, but it seems they overbanned to make a point: No more Ravager. REALLY no more Ravager.

[Zherbus]

There's a reason they aren't allowing Portal until October and it's not so you have time to find some of the singles.

[Bulls on Parade]

There's a reason they aren't allowing Portal until October and it's not so you have time to find some of the singles.

It's not so they can update the Oracle wordings? It's not that they want to avoid effectively adding 3 new sets to the cardpool in a few weeks?

[TR]

Also, let the speculation begin!

I'll speculate: Wizards is prone to include one black tutor per block. Now we have exhibit a) Kamigawa block with no tutor as of yet, but one set to be released. Exhibit a) is also oriental themed. Then we have exhibit b) A black tutor in oriental style, not on any reserved list, not overly powerful (for standard) and which is arguably going to be in dire need of reprinting. (Note: Exhibit b) may share some, possibly all, of these characteristics with several cards in the portal: three kingdoms expansion).

Of course this is not a certainty, but I like the odds and would think twice before spending $$$ on Imperial Seal.

[Bastian]

Isn't it in this year's October that Extended finally rotates out Tempest, Saga and Masques? Perhaps this early move is to give more attention to the players who are going to probably be coming to Vintage and Legacy.

TR: that seems pretty farfetched. I'm not seeing them reprint something that's practically on the power level of Vampiric Tutor for Standard when Diabolic Tutor *yuck* was released in 8th Edition.

[Necrologia]

It's not so they can update the Oracle wordings? It's not that they want to avoid effectively adding 3 new sets to the cardpool in a few weeks?

Portal cards have had Oracle wordings for some time now. Just look at Gatherer on Wizard's main page. The only real reason for the delay is to give  people a chance to figure out what's broken. If Grim Long or whatever is completely insane and people complain about it, Grim Tutor will get the ax too. Seal and Personal Tutor are just projected restrictions, ie, these are getting the ax, that's not to say everything else is fine as a 4 of.

[VGB]

I don't see how this restriction is different from any other - when it boils down to it, all restrictions appear to have been made for the sake of improving the vintage gaming experience by increasing interactivity.

Just because people were getting used to being raped by Trinisphere - expecting it, in fact - doesn't mean that the card wasn't an abomination.

I am continually amazed by how the DCI has had a finger directly on the pulse of T1 for some years now, and must applaud their deft handling of this most volatile of formats.

Now I have to go see if 3 SoR and 1 Trini is even remotely as playable as 4 x 3Sphere.

[TR]

Bastian: Your probably right, however it is debatable whether seal would be too powerful for standard with few true bombs to fetch. In parabel they printed spoils as a copy of consultation which is rightly restricted.

In any case, it is, in my opinion, simply a point one should think about before spending over a hundred bucks .