Let's Talk about Trinisphere

[Purple Hat]

@Virtual&JDizzle: I was thinking about this at dinner and I don't think you can have a discussion about trinisphere without bringing up interactivity and to do so without discussing combo seems fundimentally flawed.  I'm not convinced that combo will reign supreme and if it does I'll just start either playing combo or tuning decks to beat combo consistently.  I hope my posts have not come across as a fear of turn 0 combo.  My goal has been to make the following two points:

1)before we can have a discussion of interactivity and it's relation to trinisphere and combo we first must all agree on a definition of what we mean by interactive.

2)Said definition cannot be a definition similar to JDizzle's original definition because that definition allows things which are quite obviously noninteractive to be labled interactive.

Any posts that I've made to this thread have been with the intention of making those two points or convincing people of them.  I think that a better definition of interactivity would be something similar to the difference between game theory and decision theory as posited by by decision theory professor: "In decision theory you play a game with nature.  Nature doesn't change based on the actions you take [he means that if there are 2 red balls and 8 black balls in a jar and you guess and then pick one with out looking the number of balls of each color does not change based on what you guess].  In game theory you play a game with the other players and you determine an interaction based on how they will respond to your response to their response, etc."  

I would say that any game of magic is likely to involve some combination of these two decision making processes.  Noninteractive games are those in which the dominant process is decision theoretic and interactive games are those in which the dominant process is game theoretic.

it is important to note here that the decision theory framework assumes that you make the best decision based on your information about the state of nature.  Any time you get information that changes your belief about the state of nature you must update your decision.  Duress isn't a game theoretic action.  it's an information gathering action.  Baiting a counter is game theoretic because it is a strategy based on actions your opponent will take in response to your decision.

Under this definition I would say that turn one trinisphere always produces a noninteractive game up to the point where both players have 3 mana.  Neither player has to strongly consider their opponent's reaction to their plays.  the stax or 5/3 player can do whatever they want because their opponent can't respond and the player under the 3 sphere is forced to play whatever lands they can, hoping that they are basics or fetches in order to escape the 3sphere.  After both players have 3 mana the game CAN be forced into a more interactive mode where players will have to consider their opponent's responses and how to respond to those responses and so on.  The goal of the workshop player is clearly to extend the noninteractive portion of the game for as long as possible.

combo is noninteractive because it bases it's actions on a probability distribution of the state of nature (there's x chance he has a counter/answer).  Combo may go out of it's way to either discover more information about the state of nature (duress, xantid*) but it is still making it's decisions based entirely on a perception about the state of nature.


*xantid yields the following information about the state of nature: P(disruption)=0, P(no disruption)=1

This is different from control or aggro because an aggro player has to make decisions such as "if I attack this turn, does he block?  if so what does he block with, if not can I stop his counter attack?"  and a control player will have to make decisions like "if I counter that spell is he likely to have another threat? if so do I have to respond to his other threat, and if so can I do so effectively?"  or something of that nature.

obviously any time that you can force a noninteractive period of a game you are much better off because nature never thinks of something you didn't.  Thus playing noninteractively you can play entirely based on percentages while playing interactively you have to play based both on percentages and on a perception about how your opponent will react to a given set of circumstances.  obviously the fewer variables you have to account for the better.

Hale

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'll make my response to the questions short and sweet so I don't go on a tirade.

1) They restricted Trini because they felt it locked an opponent out of the game and allowed him to lose before he ever played a spell (which sometimes happens, but only in combo with other cards).  Also, first turn trini put too much emphasis on the coin flip, which is not what they want to see.

2)  Of course it stopped player interactivity, but not necessarily in a bad way.  It slowed the game down and forced people to have to adjust and find answers (while the 3sphere posed no threat in itself).  However, to say axing the trini will return interactivity is retarded.  Now, instead of having a turn one trinisphere that means a player might die in the next 3 or 4 or 10 turns without responses, people will die to a turn one tendrils/belch for 20 (which also allows no responses).

3) I think the restriction was totally uncalled for as the metagame had finally reached balance and began to shift.  People were playing basics and MD answers like rebuild.  It stopped the retarded brokenness in order to make decks more resilient.  Apparently they enjoy Vintage brokenness and players storming 10+ in one turn, so they cut the trinisphere (which was combo's best foil).  Not only is Combo ridiculously unhindered now, but Workshop Aggro is completely dead, as the tempo gained by trinisphere was the only thing that made juggs and company worthy threats...now they're just going to be countered, plowed, or never be a threat, because you'll be comboed out before you get to attack.  Oh yeah, and since we haven't helped combo enough by cutting the 3sphere, lets make a new set with a slew of tutors legal and leave 3-mana, demonic tutors unrestricted....smart.

Anyone up for some VS or Poker?

[MuzzonoAmi]

Stop the doomsaying. We have no evidence that we're headed for a combo summer, so stop acting like it. We have two strong control decks right now, there's a chance that aggro will be playable, and we have two combo decks. SX has only become marginally more playable, as it is still fundamentally a coinflip deck. Control decks can, despite popular opinion, beat TPS (which wins turn 1 very infrequently anyway, making it the LAST combo deck that people are going to complain about)  and I'm sure that there are other decks out there.

And just for reference: I wasn't among those calling for Trinisphere's restriction - in fact, I thought that it should at least stay until June. But we have an obligation to innovate in the new metagame, which I firmly believe will not be dominated by combo.

[Smmenen]

I don't think ANYONE in their right mind would say that Combo is going to go apeshit or even remotely dominate.  That isn't the problem.  The problem is that combo will now be the sole target for all the people who whine and bitch about a lack of interactivity now that 3Sphere isn't there to take it for them.

[dicemanx]

I don't think ANYONE in their right mind would say that Combo is going to go apeshit or even remotely dominate.  That isn't the problem.  The problem is that combo will now be the sole target for all the people who whine and bitch about a lack of interactivity now that 3Sphere isn't there to take it for them.

They didn't restrict enough actually. The two turn 1 combo decks, Meandeck SX and Belcher, should likewise have been neutered. Fortunately, they don't seem to do very well in practice, so most good players avoid playing these decks.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I don't think ANYONE in their right mind would say that Combo is going to go apeshit or even remotely dominate.  That isn't the problem.  The problem is that combo will now be the sole target for all the people who whine and bitch about a lack of interactivity now that 3Sphere isn't there to take it for them.

But they did that before.  Fortunately, not as many people will bitch about the combo decks since they're all relatively slow (TPS, Dragon) or wildly inconsistent and easy to disrupt (SX, Belcher) and are something that most people are used to adapting to.

dicemanx, I'm convinced that you just want to turn Vintage into Legacy with Power and Drains.

[Windfall]

TPS and Dragon are not as slow as one might think though.  Dragon does not even run Dark Ritual, so I believe it'll be around for the long haul.  Also, TPS and Dragon had favorable matchups against Trinisphere decks, so they may not be the combo decks of choice anymore.  Or, because they had room to devote slots to fighting Trinisphere and other artifact lock components, they can now put more effort into fighting against control decks, which will make them even more deadly and "unfun."

I don't see Rituals dominating the format in the future, but I can see people bitching about them, as people are already speculating.  I still think that Sphere of Resistance combined with mana denial components can beat combo, no denying that, but I think that the lack of a consistant Trinisphere draw means that Workshop decks will have a much worse matchup against control decks.

Type 1 is supposed to be a deadly format, and we all know that.  I think secretly every Magic player wants to play Vintage, but is not ready to commit to the dollar investment or the savage brokenness of the format.  Sometimes, a player will buy some power, go to a tournament, and then lose to something he had no idea was out there, like Trinisphere.  Naturally, the first thing he will do is bitch, moan, and complain - maybe to the DCI - and perhaps stop playing Vintage.  The question the community needs to ask themselves is "do we need those kind of players in our beloved format?"

Sure, we want the Vintage community to grow (and it obviously has, since the price of Vintage staples has more than doubled in price over the past two years), but we want the players to be accepting of the fact that brutal things happen in the format.  If you are not "man enough" to play against Trinispheres, then you shouldn't be playing Vintage.

[dicemanx]

People do accept that "brutal" things happen in T1. It's in part why we play the format. Turn 1 combo decks are too fast though. This is why we campaigned against Trini and SXTendrils/Belcher combo piece(s). Now you obviously have no problem with this. That's fine, I can accept that. However, I DO have a problem with those cards/decks, as do many other players. Fortunately for us, the DCI sided with those against Trinisphere.

What's really annoying though is the REPEATED ad hominems accusing those who wanted Trini/Ritual gone of "bitching and moaning" like we were a bunch of clueless idiots. Amazingly enough, in EVERY SINGLE thread on restrictions there is some hero who decides to accuse others of "bitching/moaning/whining". What an excellent way to win arguments. You are evidently on the side of reason because in your infinite wisdom you know what's best for the format, while the unwashed masses just "whine" to get their way.

dicemanx, I'm convinced that you just want to turn Vintage into Legacy with Power and Drains.

I don't know what's funnier - the hyperbole or the fact that it took so *little* for you to be "convinced" of it. I guess you finally uncovered my secret agenda  .

[Vegeta2711]

I don't know what's funnier - the hyperbole or the fact that it took so *little* for you to be "convinced" of it. I guess you finally uncovered my secret agenda Rolling Eyes.

I'm still amused by the fact that people still compare it to Legacy when it'd be more like Highlander than anything. Legacy has a power level smaller than current extended guys.

Oh and obviously your a whiner diceman, you have a differing opinion!

Suprisingly people, having a different opinion is exactly that, just a differing opinion. This is a message board for discussion, I'm constantly suprised by the amount of pure amount of biterness and vile spewed at everyone else. Why even bother voicing any sort of a differing opinion when you'll be eaten alive for doing so?

For Vintage being all about 'the community' you could've fooled ANYBODY from the last few weeks.

[kirdape3]

dicemanx, I'm convinced that you just want to turn Vintage into Legacy with Power and Drains.

He may not, but I sure do.

[Matt]

dicemanx, I'm convinced that you just want to turn Vintage into Legacy with Power and Drains.

He may not, but I sure do.

Let me hop on that bandwagon too. Oh wait, I already did, on page one of this very thread!

I like how people assume that "Legacy with power and drain" would actually be even remotely like Legacy. Such a hypothetical format might very well be less like Legacy than Extended is! In other words: adding Power* changes a format more than adding Force of Will and the dual lands combined.


*and by this I mean not just the power nine but also stuff like YWill and Wheel of Fortune and Tinker and other cards just as powerful, but not as pricey, as the actual Nine.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I think the spirit of what I wrote was perfectly clear. Though the actual dilevery may have been flawed.

Regardless, the fact that we've dealt with all of these decks before Trinisphere (with the exception of SX) still stands as a powerful argument to stop even TALKING about restricting Ritual, because there's no evidence that it is going to be a problem.

And I certianly feel that 'whining' is exactly what may of you are doing here. It's not a question of differing opinions, because I have yet to see these unholy Ritual-based decks that combo out on turn 1 with such consistency and through such formidable disruption that they are going to dominate the format, or even distort it to the extent that Trinisphere did. Why? Becase almost every deck has a solution to these decks (almost every (if not every) top teir deck runs blue, and therefore CAN run Force if things get bad enough, and every deck running Force is something that I've never heard someone complain about) or can run SB hate. Furthermore, if you can't play a format that allows turn 1 combo, then in all honesty, why play Vintage? Even the 'slow' combos can win turn 1 sometimes, and even the fastest combo decks seldom post the same turn 1 kill rate in tournaments that they do in testing or during goldfishing.