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Author Topic: [Article] Gifts Ungiven Belcher Control - The Primer-Type Th  (Read 7334 times)
TehBrassMan
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« on: March 08, 2005, 12:50:40 am »

Gifts Ungiven Belcher Control - The Primer-Type Thing

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I'd like to preface this by saying that no deck is built in a vacuum. There's been a little controversy lately on TheManaDrain.com about similar decklists, and I am in no way am trying to imply that I built this list "first" or that this is the ideal and final evolution of Gifts Ungiven control. One of the things I love about this archetype is that there are so many directions you can take your list in. I've tested different win conditions and ways to put the deck together, and this is just the build that I've gotten the best results with. As far as originality goes, I know team CAB released another Gifts Ungiven deck, and members of Team Reflection have been working on a similar list. Any similarity between this deck and anyone else's is just a nod in their direction, my way of saying they had a great idea, and not in any way an attempt to steal credit for it.
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2005, 10:16:02 am »

One thing I have been wondering since i first saw this list-why is this any better than Control Slaver?  What are its advantages and disadvantages?  It has a faster kill, but how often does that matter?  Also, until the combo you have 2 useless cards (Mana Severance and Belcher).  How often does one of them sit in your opening hand doing nothing when you need to control the game?
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2005, 10:56:17 am »

Quote from: TehBrassMan
Against aggro and aggro-control however, it's probably in your best interest to scoop after Null Rod hits, and assure yourself enough time to take the rest of the match.


I assume Goblin Welder is not a workable answer to Null Rod due to the lack of artifacts in their graveyard. Given that you say game 1 Null Rod/{other threatening permenant} -> scoop, is the maindeck really so tight that you can't fit in a singleton Cunning Wish to get at the R&Rs, REB, Lava Dart and Echoing Truth in your sideboard, particularly given that this is designed for an unknown meta? You have instant bullets in your sideboard against Drain Slaver, Oath, Stax, Dragon, AND Null Rod Aggro control, and so I'm curious to know if you tried running a Wish, and if so, how did it turn out?
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2005, 11:05:46 am »

I can see the advantages and disadvantages to the deck right away. Where Goth Slaver has Intuition, it's more of a card to generate an advantage, whereas for one mana more, Gifts will end the game in theory. Without playtesting this in depth, I would say that its ability to win big, versus winning small generates a pay-off in this format. I think the deck is very interesting personally, but what I really wanted to say is kudos on such a well-written piece.
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2005, 12:27:40 pm »

Quote from: Moxlotus
One thing I have been wondering since i first saw this list-why is this any better than Control Slaver?  What are its advantages and disadvantages?  It has a faster kill, but how often does that matter?  Also, until the combo you have 2 useless cards (Mana Severance and Belcher).  How often does one of them sit in your opening hand doing nothing when you need to control the game?


The difference that makes this deck better then control slaver IMHO is what Zherbus said, If you resolve Gifts Ungiven you are going to WIN the game over 90+% of the time... The deck is very focussed on achieving its goal, and has an incredibly versatile feel to it that is similar to 4cc (In that you can play agressive and demonic for lotus for turn 3 angel with FoW backup... Or you can go a very controlling approach of scrying, and outcontrolling decks)...

Things I REALLY LIKE about this deck are:
The oops I Win factor (similar to control slaver)
Can race aggro and G/R decks (more effectively then CS)
Card Advantage (strong draw engine that is equal to if not stronger then control slaver which is a permanent light deck)...
The decks worst matchup was Stax, and that deck took a major hit by loss of trinisphere...

The biggest drawback of the deck is that it is very mana intensive... To cast belcher/severence/and activate belcher costs 9 mana... Brassman talks about this, but it has never been a HUGE problem, but I am curious if this drawback can be fixed...
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 05:53:43 pm »

The two kill cards (severance and belcher) aren't actually dead before you're in a winning position.  Belcher can still randomly off opposing Welders or Gorilla Shamans or what have you, and Severance makes sure that every draw you get is a strong one.
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 07:37:08 pm »

@moxlotus: I'd never go as far to say that this deck is strictly better than control slaver, but they do fill very similar places in the metagame.  Personally I feel that having a faster kill is important enough in and of itself, but there are other things the deck has going for it.  Gifts survives hate a lot easier than CS does, as it really doesn't mind as much if welders or your graveyard gets shut off, as long as you're planning for the threat.  Also, as Kowal said, the Severance and Belcher aren't as dead as they seem, both are pretty useful in a lot of situations, and drawing one means you can tutor into the other for a quick kill.  In addition, 1  Severance, 1 Belcher, 1 Trike is less "dead" cards than most CS builds that run at *least* 2 Mindslavers, 1 Pentavus, nevermind their Trike/Angel/Titan/Jar etc.

@Nazdakka- you're absolutley right, game one against a field of Fish, you're definitely going to enjoy a maindeck answer card (I did mention that towards the very end of the article, but I may have been a little unclear)  I haven't tried a Cunning Wish, but I've been dissapointed with it in similar lists, and I'd probably run Echoing Truth there.  That said, at Syracuse and the YMG the week before, I played against Fish, Stompy and Sui, all packing Null Rods, and didn't lose a match to any of them.  Personally, I feel that keeping the maindeck how it is is your best bet all around in an event, but if you feel more comfortable running a Truth or a Wish in your meta, feel free, the deep analysis would be the first place I'd look for trying something experimental like that
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 07:50:43 pm »

Thanks for someone finally posting a primer on a new, interesting deck/archetype.
I like the idea behind the gifts decks, but what do you feel are the reasons to run it over the similar control slaver? Does it have any inherent superiority beyond gifts itself?
I goldfished the list a few times, and it really seemed to need a truckload of mana. Half the time I'd weld out a used mana vault for a mana crypt/lotus in the yard just to fuel recoup and yawg will in the same turn (7 mana total). And is the lone deep analysis useful enough to keep it maindeck?
The fact that you mentioned yawgmoth's bargain makes me wonder if a more combo-ish approach to a gifts deck is possible. Like keeping force and duress, and dropping drains. Was an approach like this part of your testing before arriving at this list?
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 08:10:13 pm »

Well, seeing as I'm going to be putting down my Stax deck for awhile, I think this may be the deck that I pick up and play due to your insightful article.

Well said!

Keep it up baby Wink

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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2005, 09:41:21 pm »

If you want to use an abbreviated name for the deck, just call it SSB (Shortbus Severance Belcher) like Brassman does. There's no need to get cute.
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2005, 09:40:04 am »

Very interesting article and a very good concept.

I have wanted to try and build a combo deck with 4 FOW 4 Mana Drain and 4 Duress for a while, I had been trying to work it with the Power Artifact Grim Monolith combo, but it was not coming together as much as i would have liked.  The severance combo is superior in that it is two cards instead of three.

A few questions, why a mystical tutor and no vampric tutor.  Also, why are you running multiple 3 of's.  I am generally not a fan of this (except in the case of the gifts).   I could potentially see the Trisk and something else being cut for the 4th duress and a cunning wish.

I am very interested to put this together
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2005, 10:46:26 am »

That was a great article, Andy. I got interested in the deck while watching Andy play Steve Menendian at SCG - Syracuse (in fact if you look at the Premium coverage on SCG of that Feature Match, I am the fat guy behind Steve) and built it as soon as I got home and read the list.
I have to say it is one of the cooler decks I have played in a while, combining many of the elements that make Drain Slaver good while not relying heavily on the somewhat fragile goblin welders. It is a great list, with good disruption and redundancies.
That being said, I have made a few minor changes that make the deck (I think) stronger. First off, I cut a welder for Crucible. Reason being that I don't like relying on the little guys, and crucible is just too powerful to leave out. It serves an additional role in this deck (besides mana stability vs. wastelands) as an alternate Mana Severance, as you can recur deltas to remove most all the lands.
Secondly, I removed one gifts (gasp!) in favor of a Vampiric tutor. I just had too many games where I would draw two or three gifts when I wanted something else. Plus Vamp is a slightly less clunky way of searching out yawgwill vs gifts/recoup (which is also house).
Overall, a great deck, and props to Andy and any others who worked on developing it.
(yes i posted this on the SCG thread, but no one apparently uses that forum)
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2005, 10:49:14 am »

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I could potentially see the Trisk and something else being cut for the 4th duress and a cunning wish.


Although I havent tested this build yet, but from playing similar decks I can say that you will want Trisk in there in most meta games.  Unless your meta has never heard of Goblin Welder your gonna want Trisk in there.  Trisk is useful against aggro as well.
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2005, 11:13:56 am »

The few losses I've taken with this deck have been my errors, and that says a lot about how strong this deck is.  It's really fantastic.  

I'll admit that it may be very close the CAB's orginal Gift's decklist, I feel it's a lot better without the inclusion of Burning Wish.  

I personally bring in Echoing Truth's and the Colossus to deal with Artifact Mutation.  Have you ever tried doing this?  It basically adds in 2 more counterspells that also answer a resolved Null Rod if need be.  I think it's a very strong boarding plan that you didn't mention in the article.
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2005, 01:10:51 pm »

Isn't there room for a Tolarian Academy?
It's one of the greatest thing in the CAB build.
I also think this list was only made because you want to avoid the Colossus kill and try a more resilient one.
Anyway, I always play with 1 Colossus as kill and NEVER had a problem with that. If you fear StP or Welders, you can just kill his welder (since not packing 3 Welders+4TfK+1M. Severance frees room for removal) or just Time Walk twice or three times for a Colossus kill (with B. Wish)
And that's another question: why not Burning Wish? Haven't you ever needed it? It dodges graveyard hate and makes Time Walk, Tinker and Will 2-of's. It's one of the best things about the CAB list.
I also think Crucible would be great, but only if you ran Strip Mine and Academy.
Anyway, it's a great list and I guess Gifts Ungiven is the next card to be broken.
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2005, 01:48:46 pm »

In the article, you mention that severance/belcher is a compact win that works better with gifts. However, you also mention the delusions/donate. Did you test this? As far as the versatility of the win cards, seal of cleansing, donate, delusions and necro are a lot more so and also allow you to not have to rely on welder, perhaps an increasingly fragile card if the metagame moves in an aggro control direction.
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2005, 01:52:29 pm »

Quote from: WildWillieWonderboy
In the article, you mention that severance/belcher is a compact win that works better with gifts. However, you also mention the delusions/donate. Did you test this? As far as the versatility of the win cards, seal of cleansing, donate, delusions and necro are a lot more so and also allow you to not have to rely on welder, perhaps an increasingly fragile card if the metagame moves in an aggro control direction.


You don't have to rely on welder in this deck. The majority of the time you are either tinkering belcher into play or hardcasting it.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2005, 02:03:38 pm »

Fair enough. Then why play a non-essential card in the first place?

I assume that welder is here for mana propagation (as is hinted at in the article) and to cheapen the win by allowing for a weld-in win. Of course, if my suggestion were to be implemented, it would probably be better to look at the Phelonious Trix deck (that I believe went undefeated in the swiss at Waterbury). Effectively this would lead to a sort of compromise between the decks, with gifts taking over for the rector engine.

My question, to Mr. Probasco or anyone else who is familiar with the Gifts Belcher, is whether any of this has been tested and (obviously) if so, what were the results? I wholeheartedly own that the suggestion of a trix-style win in this deck could be absolute shit, as this is just my knee-jerk reaction to the article
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2005, 02:32:07 pm »

Quote from: WildWillieWonderboy
In the article, you mention that severance/belcher is a compact win that works better with gifts. However, you also mention the delusions/donate. Did you test this? As far as the versatility of the win cards, seal of cleansing, donate, delusions and necro are a lot more so and also allow you to not have to rely on welder, perhaps an increasingly fragile card if the metagame moves in an aggro control direction.


It's funny that you think the deck relies on Goblin Welder. Originally, the main reason to justify Welders was to lure in hate for a card that you don't even need to rely on at all, making your opponent take out cards that are actually better than the cards they are boarding in, giving them dead cards to draw into while making their deck less reactive to yours.  I'm sure we all know the insane synergy between Y. Will / Welder / Lotus.  This is pretty much the main function of Welders, is to get you more mana faster.

Here's an example.  I'm playing against a U/W control deck at a local event.  It's a very low powered environment.  I play a Welder, he responds with a Brainstorm and sighs as he says it resolves.  A turn later he hits it with a Sword to Plowshares (probably found off the Brainstorm as I had Duressed him the turn before), then plays a Meddeling Mage naming Welder.  I proceed to win with his Mage on the table.  In game 2 he boarded in 2 more Swords and a Blue Elemental Blast.  The best part is that people do this all the time for this deck.

As for running Illusion/Donate, I doubt it's as good as the Belcher kill.  I say this without any testing backup because I'm basing it on theory.  When I plop out a Tinker, Yawg Will, Recoup and Card X off a Gifts, my opponents have been getting really nervous, taking a long time giving me 2 cards, usually being the wrong choice.  If you're running Illusions/Donate, you show them how you're killing them, telling them what two cards to give you, not to mention the lack of synergy.  When I do the basic Gifts, it has the kill in it no matter what, and it allows you to shrug off whatever spell your opponent counters.
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2005, 02:57:16 pm »

Quote from: zero
I goldfished the list a few times, and it really seemed to need a truckload of mana. Half the time I'd weld out a used mana vault for a mana crypt/lotus in the yard just to fuel recoup and yawg will in the same turn (7 mana total).

The deck *is* mana intensive, that's the reason it runs welders in the first place.  If you're playing the deck the way I built it to be played, you'll be welding vaults for lotus much more often than anything for belcher or trike.
Quote
And is the lone deep analysis useful enough to keep it maindeck?

It's very useful against control, but as mentioned in the article, the Deep Analysis slot is really experimental/metagame driven for now.  I've been playing Bargain there lately and loving it.
Quote
The fact that you mentioned yawgmoth's bargain makes me wonder if a more combo-ish approach to a gifts deck is possible. Like keeping force and duress, and dropping drains. Was an approach like this part of your testing before arriving at this list?

I did test a more combo oriented version, and I know that certain teams are working on ritual based Gits build that looks very promising, but I feel that Combo Control is the archetype best suited to abuse Gifts Ungiven.  I *did* mention why I don't like Gifts in faster combo earlier in the article, but don't let that stop you, I know some very strong TPS players have been having success with Gifts lately

Quote from: Jacob Orlove
If you want to use an abbreviated name for the deck, just call it SSB (Shortbus Severance Belcher) like Brassman does.

technically, the "offical" name of the deck is Shortbus Smallpox Blankets (SSB) Razz.  I'm just calling it Gifts for simplicity until another a slew of other Gifts based decks become popularized.

Quote from: lupo
A few questions, why a mystical tutor and no vampric tutor. Also, why are you running multiple 3 of's. I am generally not a fan of this (except in the case of the gifts). I could potentially see the Trisk and something else being cut for the 4th duress and a cunning wish.

The only things you would vamp for that you can't mystical for are Academy and Welder, unless I'm missing something, and didn't feel that was worth the mana troubles/loss of two life/pitchability to force.  Goblin Welders aren't as key to this deck's survival as CS, and I cut one of the original 4 for the Deep Analysis/Meta slot, which I was very happy with at Syracuse.  The 3 duress was a space consideration, and I feel the right call, as the deck shouldn't really need any more disruption.  The only deck that can match this counter for counter is Tog, which isn't seen a lot in the States anymore, and has its own problems in this matchup.  I wouldn't cut the Trike for anything other than another second win conditon, but if you feel you need cunning wish to win matches, try it out.

Quote from: yawg's_sammich
First off, I cut a welder for Crucible.

without a strip mine/darksteel citadel, and with that leaving you only two welders, I really feel Crucible wouldn't be pulling it's own weight.  The three islands have been more than enough protection from wasteland for  me, and fetching out your lands for belcher isn't fast enough for me to think it's that useful.
Quote
Secondly, I removed one gifts (gasp!) in favor of a Vampiric tutor.

This is probably fine if you play better with it.  I feel the deck does best when you play control early, and Gifts actually generates card advantage, while Vamp loses it.  I've also had a lot of success casting Gifts early for Mana or Power cards, but if you prefer the vamp, go for it.

Quote from: mixing mike
I personally bring in Echoing Truth's and the Colossus to deal with Artifact Mutation. Have you ever tried doing this?

I actually already bring in DSC and Echoing truth against anything packing Null Rods, I mentioned that in the article Razz   As for other Mutation-Packing decks, like FCG and Madness, Mutation doesn't really stop you from winning with belcher... really the best it can do is kill a Sol Ring, which is obviously sub-par, but Colossus-Truth might be a strong plan against those decks anyway.


Quote from: chamelet
Isn't there room for a Tolarian Academy?

There is an academy in the list in my article,  I didn't have one at SCG Syracuse due to lack of time available for finding cards Razz.
Quote
Anyway, I always play with 1 Colossus as kill and NEVER had a problem with that.

First, Colossus is two turns slower than Belcher, except in the first few turns.  In New England, where the deck was developed, Control Slaver is a real threat, and if you're in a position where you can just kill his welders and resolve a tinker unopposed, chances are you could have won the game with any number of threats, Cosmic Larva included.  Finally, Belcher/Severance/Activate still costs less than DSC, and can be spread over turns if it has to be.  Sometimes you can't get your tinker, or need to use it on something else, and you can't even weld the DSC into play.  I feel the deck configured the way it is is just a lot more versatile.
Quote
And that's another question: why not Burning Wish? Haven't you ever needed it?

I haven't tested it, so I can't know for sure, but there are very few situations in which I feel it would be strong.  The need to cast a third Tinker or a second Will seems ridiculous to me, the only card I'd see it being very useful with is Time Walk.  It might be worth a test run, but I feel less conditional carrds deserve the space more.

Quote from: wildwillywonderboy
My question, to Mr. Probasco or anyone else who is familiar with the Gifts Belcher, is whether any of this has been tested and (obviously) if so, what were the results?

I haven't tested that particular combo, so feel free to do it, but I feel it wouldn't be quite as strong.  The reasons being:  Tinker + Severance is actually cheaper than Illusions-Donate, and illusions or donate without their combo friends are a lot more dead than a lone belcher or severance is.  That said, I'm assuming you'd be rebuilding the  deck from the ground up, including rituals (if you're running Necro) and and a new manabase (if you're running Seal).  Personally I don't feel that kind of combo is the way to go (Phelon played it mostly as a joke, if I'm not mistaken), and Rector/Therapy is probably a lot stronger than Gifts.   Feel free to try it anyway, but it's a totally different style of deck.
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2005, 03:04:13 pm »

Quote from: TheBrassMan
Colossus-Truth might be a strong plan against those decks anyway.


This is my point.  So far I'm 4-0 in events against Rod/Mutation decks.  I lost one game to them because one of my opponents drew 3 Mutations in their opening hand and hit my Colossus with all of them.  I was able to handle two before untapping again, but having three is not something you'd ever expect them to have when they have 48 cards left in their deck.
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2005, 03:09:55 pm »

As I said many times, great article with a great deck Andy.  This deck is savage.
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2005, 10:47:13 pm »

Well, I fired up the deck and I gotta tell you that it's really actually quite versatile and explosive.

It's ridiculous how fast I cycle through the deck, and I love it!  With trinisphere gone, a deck like this can really excel.  My only real problem with the deck is that if some pesky permanent gets through your defenses, you're going to need to start racing it because there's no real main deck answer for something stupid like bargain or the like.  

I've played around with the deep anal slot and did not like it there.  I then tested bargain as you suggested and I found it to generally be a "win more" card.  I think that a form of main deck bounce card like echoing truth will never really be dead in the deck; well at least in my meta.  I'm not so sure about trike either...  Shouldn't this possibly be a sideboard choice as well?  Possibly the Colossus mainboard as an initial threat?  Thoughts?

Other than that, I've been consistantly destroying other control decks like Oath and Control Slaver.  I've been having more difficulty with combo, but with more play testing, I should be able to hone the deck further!

Hopefully other people pick up this deck and mess with it also.  

Thanks,

Pac
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« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2005, 02:07:18 pm »

i have been playing this deck for a little while, since someone posted it on here, and i found that it was not goldfishing well at all, i wouldnt draw articafts when i needed them and so on, but once i sat down with Rich Shay and played against his Slaver build i began to get the hang of it a bit more, now it was entirely defeated against his CS build, but thats to be expected, when i started testing it against DeathLong though it handled itself much, much better. Andy, how have you found the CS matchup to be? what would you side in/out?
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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2005, 02:20:17 pm »

Quote from: d4ddy
i have been playing this deck for a little while, since someone posted it on here, and i found that it was not goldfishing well at all, i wouldnt draw articafts when i needed them and so on, but once i sat down with Rich Shay and played against his Slaver build i began to get the hang of it a bit more, now it was entirely defeated against his CS build, but thats to be expected, when i started testing it against DeathLong though it handled itself much, much better. Andy, how have you found the CS matchup to be? what would you side in/out?


I find this to be very suprising because Control Slaver is probably 1 of the BEST MATCHUPS for Severence Belcher. I am a combined 6-0-1 vs. Control Slaver in the last 2 tournements I have attended (at West Springfield), and I have top 8'ed on both thanks to the control Slaver matchup.

Post-Board (depending on your sideboard) Control Slaver has almost no game vs. Belcher, because belcher is less suseptable to hate (graveyard hate can slow the deck down a little bit, but is still rather uneffective, and at times usless vs. the deck)... The control slaver matchup also requires play skill with the deck that can improve the initial feel of the matchup.

I am very confident that Brassman, and Ben Kowal will echo this statement, as do my tourney results.
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Gabethebabe
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2005, 02:25:41 am »

This deck is a blast to play. I went 5-2-0 last weekend, not enough for T8 in a 70 player tournament, but I had an extremely good time. A pity that I totally misplayed the first game in the third match against a bad keeper deck and subsequently kept a LoA hand with 6 spells in the third, only to find out that there were no mana sources in the first 10 cards of my library Sad.

I played your list, but with a Cunning Wish in the Deep Analysis slot. With BEB, REB, Dart, Echoing Truth or R&R as Wish targets, you should always be able to find a card you can use (actually, I also played a Coffin Purge).

The Lotus petal I found unimpressive.

And I also found out that 4 playing 4 Polluted Delta cost me a game (Belch on the table, no Mana Severance and 5 lands left in my deck: 2 Polluted, Tundra, Island and Volcanic. If that had been 1 Polluted, 1 Flooded, 1 Tundra, 1 Island and 1 Volcanic, I would have gifted for 4 and fetched for the fifth to belch him out. Now it was only for 12).

I played Titan and Colossus in the SB and I liked them both.

I had a 30-40% mulligan rate, all due to lack of mana. This deck is very mana hungry and I will surely kick out the Petal for a hard mana source and maybe some other card as well (a Duress maybe).

Fortunately I won a decent share of games with only a six card hand.

What a cool deck!
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2005, 08:03:50 am »

An interesting article indeed. We added Crucible/Darksteel Citadel and Strip and started testing the deck against Stax and TPS, both before sideboard. We found that the deck didn't stand a chance against TPS, but neither does Slaver, so that result wasn't surprising. More surprisingly was the bad matchup against Stax. Sphere of Resistance really hurts the deck and the  casting cost difference in Intuition+activating Slaver and Gifts+Severance+activating Belcher was obviously what made the difference. The TPS matchup can be, as you noticed in the article be fixed by some sideboarding, but I don't see how that accounts for the Stax matchup since, if they are clever, takes in a millions ways of removing your Welders.

The added minicombo gave the deck well needed artifacts, but other than that I cannot tell if it's worth its spots. However, I cannot help thinking that the deck would be better of with Intuition. Sure, the combo is four card, but gift is just too slow and all card drawing almost always gives you one combo piece before you can afford to play Gifts. Alternatively, you just need Recoup Belcher and Severance if you have a Welder in play. The combo as it is cannot, due to it's high mana cost, be played aggressivly enough.Have you tested whith Intuition instead, or was it discarded just because it doesn't give all four pieces?
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2005, 10:40:54 am »

Quote from: Wollblad
We found that the deck didn't stand a chance against TPS, but neither does Slaver, so that result wasn't surprising.


I'm going to have to disagree.  I never had any problems beating TPS with Slaver, nor this deck.  This deck has a more favorable matchup due to the Duresses.
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2005, 10:57:29 am »

Quote
I'm going to have to disagree. I never had any problems beating TPS with Slaver, nor this deck. This deck has a more favorable matchup due to the Duresses.


Beating TPS with a Slaver without Duresses isnt going to happen more than 50% period. You shouldnt even come close to it, so I really think you should take another look at the matchup.

Testing TPS versus this deck I still felt I had a favourable matchup, but the Duresses give this deck more of a fighting change than most slaver builds. Aside from that, the deck was almost never capable of outracing TPS and totally had to rely on control elements to win games.

---

On the deck, the Welders seem really weak to me, and so do the Thirst, I constantly feel a need to add 1/2 more artifact bomb to improve both these cards.

I still dont really see the advantage of Running, Severance + Belcher over Burning Wish + Colossus. With Belcher Tinker feels really weak in the deck and I actually often dont like playing a 2U Sorcery that forces me to sacrifice an artifact if it doesnt give me anything really good, this deck just needs it's mana too much.

Koen
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2005, 12:25:11 am »

Quote from: Mixing Mike
Quote from: Wollblad
We found that the deck didn't stand a chance against TPS, but neither does Slaver, so that result wasn't surprising.


I'm going to have to disagree.  I never had any problems beating TPS with Slaver, nor this deck.  This deck has a more favorable matchup due to the Duresses.


I found TPS to be 60-40 in testing in the favor of Severence Belcher, but then again i think the results depend heavily on how you have designed your sideboard.

On another note lotus petal is awful in the deck, and I was not a fan of deep analysis because control decks are already a good matchup, and there was almost always a better card to gifts for... I dont find the deck to be mana hungry as people say, because when your winning the game you usually do it over a period of 2 turns Via time walk. However, it is mana hungry, but just not THAT hungry to the point that it stops the decks effectiveness...

My current changes to the maindeck that have gotten me 3 straight top 8's in Connecticut/Massachusetts tourneys with attendences over 40 people are these:

+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Fetch
+1 Skeletal Scrying
-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Island

I have been playing the deck for over 2 months now and have never really stuggled with the mana base in any situation at all.

I am not really sure where your 30-40% mulligan percentage came from... I probably mulligan about 10-15% but the deck can randomly get ugly draws, but just as often get god draws.

Kyle L
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