[Article] Multi-Colored Control Part 2

[LotusHead]

Best play ever! 3CC Vs Slaver

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=9205

Game 2: He opens with Volcanic Island, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, Jester's Cap. Unfortunately, I had sided out a Decree of Justice so he hit all 3 win conditions he could find in my deck. However, he doesn't know this and assumes that I still have a Decree of Justice in hand (I used all 3 game 1). I'm briefly thinking about just going to game 3 when I realize he still has Mana Crypt. Between that and fetches, he died as I had an active Library all game and prevented any digging/tutoring so he couldn't Tinker it away.

Never say die!

[mask]

Zherbus,

I want to Discuss the Merits of using Planar Void in place of Phyrexian Furnace.

As we all know Control Slaver is one of the top deck. Phyrexian Furance Hurts the player and remove thier limited Win Conditions, but since this is an arifact, they have Oppunirtes to weld away this card, or Wish for a Rack or Ruin. Doesn't this make a weaker opition Against Control Slaver?

This is why I propose to use Planar Void instead. First lets look at the Cards, Furance and Void both a 1 drop. Both still are clear the field of the graveyard hate.  Control Slaver usually does not field enchament removal. It stops All Welding Advantages and leaves you both without out. Although i can see you debating this seriously impare yawgmoth will, but this scarifced is on both of you, plus you have this critial piece information and side it out for vamp tutor.

Dragon that run with Green or Deed will be able to deal with Furance or Void, but Three colour verus Two seems to be showing smaller showing, due to Strong Non Basic hate in the current field.

Psychatog Game becomes very weak against Void. Ideally it will want to Destroy the Void before it starting drawing into the it win, but with lets say 2-3 wishes 1-2 deeds / engieered explosives. Tog will have to great measures to deal with a void.

Void Also has a strong Match up against Tendrils Combo Decks, Wouldn;t the Correct Sideboard be: +4 Chalice +3 Void +1 Vamp tutor -2 Cunning Wish -2 Swords -1 Yawgmoth Will -1 Decree -1 Balance -1 Old Man of the Sea. If you think about it kills Yawgmoth Will, which most combo deck play combo as if Yawgmoth Will is the deck, Draw Seven's Lose a lot of thier Power. A lot of people just will not know how to deal with this, and allow you steal these games away.

On your article you cleary State that The Win Condition could be amoung many of the different items selected. There is one thing to consider. Exlated Angle actaully has a better games against Tendrils and Doomsday.

Doomsday says my game plan is bring your life from 20 or less to 0. After you bring yourself over 20 Doomsday has to storm up one more spell. A lot time this will not be too much of a problem, But it makes it critial they have another mana source in play to cast that spell to go off.  For every Swing Doomsday has to play resource and turn catch up.  Against Tendrils this does have a similar effect, but it starts to Shine against the much slower TPS. A fast Angel Will make TPS play hurry up, which the deck is not designed to do. Allowing you steal more games away from these players.

Jason

Personal Note: I have you(Zherbus) mailed the other opitions on removing the 2 other win for metagame calls. Please let me know if you did not recieved it, i have since updated my list.

[Toad]

Planar Void is bad against Goblin Welder. Triggered effects will always leave them with an opportunity to use Goblin Welder.

Do not underestimate the power of Phyrexian Furnace. It's really strong.

[Zherbus]

Planar Void doesn't work for shit with Skeletal Scrying. Cutting off the majority of your draw isn't very smooth. Also, be advised that Planar Void isn't as powerful of an effect as some would like to think since it's triggered, and therefore can be responded to.

In the Control Slaver example: They Thirst for Knowledge, discarding a Mindslaver. In response to the remove-from-game trigger, Weld it into play and lose the mox or whatever you Welded out.

On your article you cleary State that The Win Condition could be amoung many of the different items selected. There is one thing to consider. Exlated Angle actaully has a better games against Tendrils and Doomsday.

Doomsday says my game plan is bring your life from 20 or less to 0. After you bring yourself over 20 Doomsday has to storm up one more spell. A lot time this will not be too much of a problem, But it makes it critial they have another mana source in play to cast that spell to go off. For every Swing Doomsday has to play resource and turn catch up. Against Tendrils this does have a similar effect, but it starts to Shine against the much slower TPS. A fast Angel Will make TPS play hurry up, which the deck is not designed to do. Allowing you steal more games away from these players.

Read the following:

Decree of Justice is better against Control Slaver because uncounterable.
It's quite better against Combo because you can use It EOT and put early pressure while keeping UU open. It's far better against Stax when facing Smokestack and Tangle Wire.

Personal Note: I have you(Zherbus) mailed the other opitions on removing the 2 other win for metagame calls. Please let me know if you did not recieved it, i have since updated my list.

No I have not.

[mask]

Planar Void is bad against Goblin Welder. Triggered effects will always leave them with an opportunity to use Goblin Welder.

Do not underestimate the power of Phyrexian Furnace. It's really strong.

I agree regarlding Welder & Trigger Effects. Think of this Even if they have Slaver in Yard and welder in Play, and able to slave you. Slaver becomes one shot wonder.

Furance is very strong, but all decks with welders have outs to Furance, Few have abilites to deal with Void.

[mask]

Planar Void doesn't work for shit with Skeletal Scrying. Cutting off the majority of your draw isn't very smooth. Also, be advised that Planar Void isn't as powerful of an effect as some would like to think since it's triggered, and therefore can be responded to.

In the Control Slaver example: They Thirst for Knowledge, discarding a Mindslaver. In response to the remove-from-game trigger, Weld it into play and lose the mox or whatever you Welded out.

On your article you cleary State that The Win Condition could be amoung many of the different items selected. There is one thing to consider. Exlated Angle actaully has a better games against Tendrils and Doomsday.

Doomsday says my game plan is bring your life from 20 or less to 0. After you bring yourself over 20 Doomsday has to storm up one more spell. A lot time this will not be too much of a problem, But it makes it critial they have another mana source in play to cast that spell to go off. For every Swing Doomsday has to play resource and turn catch up. Against Tendrils this does have a similar effect, but it starts to Shine against the much slower TPS. A fast Angel Will make TPS play hurry up, which the deck is not designed to do. Allowing you steal more games away from these players.

Read the following:

Decree of Justice is better against Control Slaver because uncounterable.
It's quite better against Combo because you can use It EOT and put early pressure while keeping UU open. It's far better against Stax when facing Smokestack and Tangle Wire.

Personal Note: I have you(Zherbus) mailed the other opitions on removing the 2 other win for metagame calls. Please let me know if you did not recieved it, i have since updated my list.

No I have not.

I agree with you on the Example, I will have to reconsider,

Off a turn one Void yes you are correct you cannot draw, but the correct move is not to play a turn one void against slaver, and will have card in your yard.

For Referance here is what i am currently Running:

Mana Base (25)
3 Underground Seas
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strads
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring


Control (13)
3 Duress
4 Mana Drains
4 Force of Wills
2 Sword of Plowshare

Draw (14)
4 Brain Storm
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor

Bomb (3)
1 Yawgmoth Will
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist

Meta Game (4)
2 Plague Spittler
2 Exalted Angel


Side Board (15)

Wish (6)
1 Sword of PlowShare
1 Snuff out
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Coffin Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Daze
1 Skeletal Scrying

Game Two?? (9)
3 Planar Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Duress

 I really wanted to be proactive about the enviroment. I though hard about it, and releazied my problems were going to be Welder and Fish's tough fight. I though about enginerred plagues and relazie i can do one better. So I put a creature from the Past, back in Mask block. Plague Spittler. While in Play It kills Welders, and PREVENTS peoeple from laying down welders. Even dropping this after they have slaved you and have infinite slaver on board will break you of the hole. Therefore is the same or close Psychology with Duress it stunts thier growth and must dig for weak solutions present in most workshop or slaver decks. Fishes creates almost all just die from it, and this has strong game against Random Aggro trying to make it. This creature also stops Juggy, and trisks when it needs to kill it. Morphings have to watch how much mana they are goign to leave open to it. And well against sligh you games increase =)) All this for 2 colourless and one black and 2/2 beater. Efficetly beating down for 3.

Jason

[forests failed you]

However, as Zherbus has already pointed out:
Planar Void + Skeletal Scrying is not a combo.

...and moving along.

Obviously, I'm not going to second guess any decesions Zherbus made during his construction and metagaming of his deck; considering the source and also the result.  However, I would suggest Engineered Plague as a sideboard option for future builds of this deck.  I have been playing a lot of extended lately and had ample time to become reacquainted with this old bomb for the board.  I've been playing two and they have been a really solid call against both Oath and Slaver.

[Zherbus]

I agree regarlding Welder & Trigger Effects. Think of this Even if they have Slaver in Yard and welder in Play, and able to slave you. Slaver becomes one shot wonder.

Ok, Firstly, I Thirst <INSERT ARTIFACT HERE> into the 'yard and Weld it back in response. I <use Mindslaver/break Pentavus into 5 Pentavites/ Platinum Angel dies> the next turn, and when it hits the graveyard, I can Weld it back in by sacrificing another mox (or a token).

Secondly, imagine the above psuedo-example but with Phyrexian Furnace: I Thirst <INSERT ARTIFACT HERE> into the 'yard and before I can Weld it back in response, you remove it with Furnace.

Lastly, it generally only takes one activated Slaver to make the game lean in one direction.

The only 'out' to Furnace Slaver has is to 1) Hardcast it's stuff, 2) bait it with another Artifact bomb, 3) run a maindeck way to remove it, 4) rely on the 3cC player being a retard and let Slaver have a Welder on board with 3cC having a Lotus(Petal) in the graveyard.

The out's to Planar Void are simply to just respond to it's trigger.

[mask]

I agree regarlding Welder & Trigger Effects. Think of this Even if they have Slaver in Yard and welder in Play, and able to slave you. Slaver becomes one shot wonder.

Ok, Firstly, I Thirst <INSERT ARTIFACT HERE> into the 'yard and Weld it back in response. I <use Mindslaver/break Pentavus into 5 Pentavites/ Platinum Angel dies> the next turn, and when it hits the graveyard, I can Weld it back in by sacrificing another mox (or a token).

Secondly, imagine the above psuedo-example but with Phyrexian Furnace: I Thirst <INSERT ARTIFACT HERE> into the 'yard and before I can Weld it back in response, you remove it with Furnace.

Zherbus,

I will have to disagree with your example. When they Thirst for Knowledge, They can declare 2 items to be discarded. Your example only works when they Discard The Desired Target on Top. Since it part of the card effect, to discard they do not stack one card and then the next. It is both cards at once. If i overlooked the rules in matter please advise.

Jason

[Zherbus]

I really wanted to be proactive about the enviroment. I though hard about it, and releazied my problems were going to be Welder and Fish's tough fight. I though about enginerred plagues and relazie i can do one better. So I put a creature from the Past, back in Mask block. Plague Spittler. While in Play It kills Welders, and PREVENTS peoeple from laying down welders. Even dropping this after they have slaved you and have infinite slaver on board will break you of the hole. Therefore is the same or close Psychology with Duress it stunts thier growth and must dig for weak solutions present in most workshop or slaver decks. Fishes creates almost all just die from it, and this has strong game against Random Aggro trying to make it. This creature also stops Juggy, and trisks when it needs to kill it. Morphings have to watch how much mana they are goign to leave open to it. And well against sligh you games increase =)) All this for 2 colourless and one black and 2/2 beater. Efficetly beating down for 3.

I agree Spitter is good against Welders, but you're basically cutting Duress and a Scrying. What this means fundimentally is that you're "adding a Swords to Plowshares to Fight Psychatog." It's become such a common occurance that people are fighting the percieved problem, rather than the real problem.

To illustrate the Tog example, people who brought in Swords against Tog usually lost because the real problem was the card-draw that the Tog deck ran and not the card that dealt the final blow.

When fighting a combo deck, is it better to Duress a Tendrils of Agony or a Dark Ritual. Which is the problem card? I'll give you a hint, it's not the Tendrils.

When fighting a Slaver deck, Welder isn't the problem. We run Plows and Cunning Wish->Plow, and Old Man for all that. The problem is the draw engine is also a Welder enabler as well as a powerful search effect.

Also, but cutting the Duress and Scrying for Spitter, you're automatically worse against Combo to start. Against Control Slaver, they are able to play their game more reliably (since you're not drawing as much or Duressing as much), which allows them to set up a Trisk to remove the Spitter-annoyance, then drop the two Welders they've been holding in hand.

I do agree that Spitter is very solid against Fish and Aggro. I consider it very metagamed in that respect, though Fish likely won't exist significantly in an environment where aggro exists significantly. By that reasoning, and the assumption that I am correct (that this card is going to lose you games against combo and NOT win games against Control Slaver), this is a sideboard option.

I will have to disagree with your example. When they Thirst for Knowledge, They can declare 2 items to be discarded. Your example only works when they Discard The Desired Target on Top. Since it part of the card effect, to discard they do not stack one card and then the next. It is both cards at once. If i overlooked the rules in matter please advise.

I'm not sure what your talking about here. You'll need to be more articulate for me to respond.

[TheDB]

Zherbus,

I will have to disagree with your example. When they Thirst for Knowledge, They can declare 2 items to be discarded. Your example only works when they Discard The Desired Target on Top. Since it part of the card effect, to discard they do not stack one card and then the next. It is both cards at once. If i overlooked the rules in matter please advise.

Jason

it is hard to make out your english, but...

Yes, they can discard two cards if they want.  It wont Change anything, though, both of his examples still work if they decide to throw two away.

[mask]

I will have to disagree with your example. When they Thirst for Knowledge, They can declare 2 items to be discarded. Your example only works when they Discard The Desired Target on Top. Since it part of the card effect, to discard they do not stack one card and then the next. It is both cards at once. If i overlooked the rules in matter please advise.

I'm not sure what your talking about here. You'll need to be more articulate for me to respond.

After you draw from Thirst for Knowledge, you can declare your discard Card "The Bad Stuff" and Card "ABC", Discard does not follows discard rules so it doesn;t go i discard one, resolves, and i discard number 2 resolves, it goes discard both, thirst resolves. If you active Furance Remove Top card ability it would take "Card ABC", or you can sac it and go for card"The Bad Stuff" but it will be meaning less if they have active welder in play with your above example.

Regarlding Scrying and Duress. Duress is very strong, and i wanted to test it verus one Strip Mine.
 
Actaully My mistake on the scrying, I had put swap it for another meta game card and took it out and did not put the scrying back in the Main deck on my List. My deck has currentl has only 59 cards. The sideboard other choice card is x1 Accumlated Knowledge right now,

[Rico Suave]

He's saying a person can cast Thirst, discard 2 cards, and Phyrexian Furnace doesn't stop the large artifact unless you sacrifice the Phyrexian Furnace.

This is also true if the Slaver player casts a Brainstorm, sacs a fetchland, or in anyway puts a card into the graveyard during the same turn they cast TFK to dump an artifact.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Planar Void can do nothing about the cards that are in the graveyard before it resolves. And while playing additional Voids would be redundant, extra Furnaces could at the very least can "cycle" themselves.

On Topic: Great follow up article Zherbus. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with the masses. I had an opportunity to playtest the new build last weekend at Pro Tour Atlanta versus a few friends. While my life totals did get low occassionally I never lost a single game.

EDIT: removed response to Mask made irrelavant after Rico clarified what he was saying referred to.

[Necrologia]

I think what Mask is trying to say is: What if they thirst, then discard 2 cards. That makes the graveyard:

-Top-
Thirst
Artifact to Weld
Random
-Bottom-

Doing so will indeed prevent the first ability of the Furnace from working. That's why the second ability is there. In responce to their weld you sac furnace and eat their welder target, then draw a card. Not bad.

EDIT: It seems I'm a slow typer.

[Zherbus]

He's saying a person can cast Thirst, discard 2 cards, and Phyrexian Furnace doesn't stop the large artifact unless you sacrifice the Phyrexian Furnace.

This is also true if the Slaver player casts a Brainstorm, sacs a fetchland, or in anyway puts a card into the graveyard during the same turn they cast TFK to dump an artifact.

Oh, sure. You still remove it though, on top of that you get your card (-1 for Furnace, +1 cantripped) back.

[xrizzo]

This list, minus the three Phyrexian Furnace is the version of Oath I designed before Meandeck as a whole decided to run a more "mono-bluesque" Meandeck Oath that you know and love today. Alarmingly, only a few weeks after the U/G Oath's debut, Team BHWC released a similar build called "DOA (Duress Owns All)", which contained only three Skeletal Scrying (where I had four), 2 Cunning Wish (I was actually using Pernicious Deed before going to Furnace), and the Meandeck Oath creature regiment of Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Spirit of the Night (I always had Ancient Hydra and constantly flip-flopped on the other creature slot).

My main question after reading it is: Why is it alarming?

[Ufactor]

Thanks be to Zherbus for choosing to keep this as a non-premium article!

[mask]

Zherbus,

Sorry my intendition was not criticize you, or your deck,

I just wanted just give my suggestion and my advise and thoughts, amd promote where else this should go.

He's saying a person can cast Thirst, discard 2 cards, and Phyrexian Furnace doesn't stop the large artifact unless you sacrifice the Phyrexian Furnace.

This is also true if the Slaver player casts a Brainstorm, sacs a fetchland, or in anyway puts a card into the graveyard during the same turn they cast TFK to dump an artifact.

Oh, sure. You still remove it though, on top of that you get your card (-1 for Furnace, +1 cantripped) back.

Regarlding this Example, An expierence control slaver player will not dump A MindSlaver when you have a active furance, unless they can proctect it. When you attempt to remove the slaver, all they have to do is weld out the slaver, and your furance is defeated.


Rich Shay did menition that many time he feels he does not just want to play Thirst, he rather wait for better timing or hoarding them. When in a situation like such as this, he would wait until when he can actiavte welder into a slaver or attempt to. Wouldn't This suggest Furance will have a hard time trying get rid of the Slaver threat?

At least with Planar Void there can be the end to slaving, until they wish up disenchant.


If you also analyze the how Slaver Function, it combo procedure (correct term?) is only compareable to the one other, Dragon. Only really needs two cards to go off, three to make the kill. Slaver want to go I control you and then recur the slaver. Therefore if you stop the Recur (Goblin Welder) You can control matchup. That is the main reason for my to Include Plague Spittler. It prevent them from recurring the Slaver.

To Play Planar Void, The ideal play would to play this card after you develop your graveyard, but this is again idea, not the gospel turth. in many cases One large scrying is all you need.

Question how would Oath React to Planar Void? I do not believe it will be a counter, because the same removal of thier of thier wins would be swords. But Salavanger oath, would not like to see void.

Jason

[Klep]

Regarlding this Example, An expierence control slaver player will not dump A MindSlaver when you have a active furance, unless they can proctect it. When you attempt to remove the slaver, all they have to do is weld out the slaver, and your furance is defeated.

In order for this to work, they have to have more Welders in play than you have Furnaces, becaus you shouldn't be trying to remove things until they get targeted for a weld.  CS should really have a difficult time keeping more than 1 Welder in play, due to the disruption and removal 3CC packs.

[Kowal]

From what CS I've played over the past year and whatever experience I've had with Keeper in that time, the gameplan for Slaver was never to beat you with welders.  It was simply easier to outdraw you and force in a Tinker for whatever wins than it was to play around removal and graveyard hate.

The addition of Duress helps, but I don't think it's worth the cost of Red Elemental Blast (and Gorilla Shaman, which I still consider to be the nut)

[Zherbus]

My main question after reading it is: Why is it alarming?

It was perhaps a bad word choice. I was suprised, but not in a good way. I wanted to persue the build at a later event and write a whole bunch about it, but I was publicly beaten to it. It was alarming to me, because since there are so many solid thinkers in the format (contrary to common belief), your good idea isn't always rocket science that someone else won't just figure out when following a similiar thought pattern.

Regarlding this Example, An expierence control slaver player will not dump A MindSlaver when you have a active furance, unless they can proctect it. When you attempt to remove the slaver, all they have to do is weld out the slaver, and your furance is defeated.

That's fine. I just need to hold things off until I can grab a Drain or plow the Welder.

Rich Shay did menition that many time he feels he does not just want to play Thirst, he rather wait for better timing or hoarding them. When in a situation like such as this, he would wait until when he can actiavte welder into a slaver or attempt to. Wouldn't This suggest Furance will have a hard time trying get rid of the Slaver threat?

Well, first I would like to see Rich defend this logic because I'm not seeing it. I'm sure either he didn't say it and you're misreading him or he has a damn good reason that my feeble brain can't fathom. If he's not playing Thirsts, he's probably not drawing cards. I'm not going to hesitate to Duress and Scrye, so my guess that play method would accomplish a whole lot of nothing.

At least with Planar Void there can be the end to slaving, until they wish up disenchant.

We already discussed this and I illustrated why the above sentance is false.

If you also analyze the how Slaver Function, it combo procedure (correct term?) is only compareable to the one other, Dragon. Only really needs two cards to go off, three to make the kill. Slaver want to go I control you and then recur the slaver. Therefore if you stop the Recur (Goblin Welder) You can control matchup. That is the main reason for my to Include Plague Spittler. It prevent them from recurring the Slaver.

I don't think Dragon has much in common at all with Slaver. I also think you're misunderstanding the dynamic of the Slaver versus. 3cControl match. Recursion doesn't Just Win(tm) against Slaver. Slaver isn't a matchup you'll ever be able to just win. You're in a control mirror, and you have to establish the control role, and establish control before winning. Control Slaver isn't going to roll-over and die to either Planar Void, Spitter, or Furnace.

Furnace just so happens to not-suck when a threat is in play since it cycles, works a miracle in multiples by effectively Tormod's Crypting the opponent at will, and can respond to a Welders ability.

To Play Planar Void, The ideal play would to play this card after you develop your graveyard, but this is again idea, not the gospel turth. in many cases One large scrying is all you need.

This is why is strongly dislike this discussion right now. We've gone so far into hypothetics and 'what could happen', that we're no longer close to being Down-To-Earth where my testing results (ask anyone on Meandeck, Planar Void was a consideration, it just doesn't cut it) and tournament experience where Furnace DID work.

By this logic, we could argue why Morphling is still viable when we all know it just isn't. The next article is going to have a wealth of testing results and another report (unless I get stuck moving this weekend) if you want to save yourself the time and do the testing I did to compare the two.

Question how would Oath React to Planar Void? I do not believe it will be a counter, because the same removal of thier of thier wins would be swords. But Salavanger oath, would not like to see void.

1) Most Oath only runs 1 Gaea's Blessing. They really don't have too much of a hard-on of playing the same game Oath of 2001 played. It doesn't want to keep recurring those AK's to draw massive cards, or Oath something magical in the graveyard to Regrowth. It wants to simply Oath up a 6/6 haster, swing, Oath another, and win. Planar Void would be a shrug of their shoulders, nothing more.

2) "because the same removal of thier of thier wins would be swords." Every removal of yours SHOULD be a Swords anyway.

[Moxlotus]

From Rich Shay's "Training Wheels" article.

Unlike most decks which cast their card-drawing spells as soon as they have open mana, Control Slaver prefers to wait until just the right moment to cast its draw spells. Is every card in your hand a good non-artifact spell? Then maybe you should wait to cast that Thirst for Knowledge. Do you like all those cards in your hand? Then maybe that Brainstorm needs to wait until you don't.

[Jacob Orlove]

There's a difference between "waiting for the right moment to cast your draw spells" and "not casting draw spells in the control mirror". Holding back on Thirst until you have an artifact in hand, and can milk card advantage out of it is fine, but letting your opponent outdraw you and duress it away while you're waiting to set up welder/slaver is generally a bad play.

[cane]

@zherbus: you seem to be getting thrown a lot to your head after the articles, don't let it get to you, you've done a kick ass job (as always)

but I also have a question (not critisisme)
why don't you use engineered explosives?  in my modest opinion this cards rocks, (to make this post confusing) it's a proactive - reactive card, who's funtion can change to what you need (I have never ever found myself in a position that when I drew it, it was a dead draw, unless I had allready won the game

again, this is not critisisme, I just want to understand why you don't think it's worth a slot or two

[Zherbus]

Oh, I welcome criticism if it makes sense. I'm not going to bite heads off for suggestions and validity. I just feel that sometimes too much 'armchair critiquing' which can be eliminated with field-testing. Anyway, the Germans like to run a lone Explosives. They don't cut anything for it, they just run 61 cards. I don't really see a need for it personally, but I see the usefulness of the flexability.

[Revvik]

I have no shame, so I just netdecked this and played it last tuesday.  Easily the most fun I've had all year playing.  Had some incredibly tight games against Dragon which would've been won had I more experience with the deck.

Zherbus: Do you ever see this swinging back towards the 4-color build?  Now that Trinisphere is out of the picture, would a 4-color version be viable (Trinisphere + Crucible/Waste isn't a hardlock) or are there still other problems with running that kind of configuration?

[mask]

Oh, I welcome criticism if it makes sense. I'm not going to bite heads off for suggestions and validity. I just feel that sometimes too much 'armchair critiquing' which can be eliminated with field-testing. Anyway, the Germans like to run a lone Explosives. They don't cut anything for it, they just run 61 cards. I don't really see a need for it personally, but I see the usefulness of the flexability.

Agreeded Explosives is powerful. The problem with Explosives is that a lot cases you want to use it for blow it for zero. With Lack of Wastelands it doesn;t allow you to really take advantage of this.

Zherbus has used the approach to attack the Business cards of the decks. Not to sit back and allow the business cards to hit play. Tog Plays this card because on ocassion it does have to clear the way.

To me Cunning Wish is suppose fill the same flexability opition, and it imporantly it is blue. Many Match up i would rather have One Spector over one Explosives, just to say true to deny business spells.

Jason

[cane]

I'll admit I play a different build then zherbus
(cuz I like to play with my own builds (not that they're better, I just think that's part of the fun))
in mine I think there is a lot more synergie to go with the explosives (wastelands, tinker, tolarian)
it just came to me as it was a real control card and wanted to hear why cap Z didn't think it was good enough to include
magic's a game of wich I think everyone can learn more about each day,
and seeing on how people don't dislike EE, I think I've become a better player over the last year (asuming ppl that are on TMD know what they're doing)

however, I'll state why I think that in the most important cases EE could be better then CW, you can almost always put it down first turn, for one (welder) or two (oath)
in the welder example, it costs you 3 mana to blow up one (or possibly more)  welders (and their sol ring and mana vault etc), it'll cost you 4 to do that with CW (only one welder), also, with CW, you're playing 2 spells if you want to spread them over time there's a bigger chance of a counter disrupting your plans
it also gives the benefit to play around chalice's and is a cheap way of getting rid of them

offcourse I do recognize the flexibility that CW grants, as they are also included in my personal build and probably won everybody who used them correctly a lot of games

but i don't want to go any further off topic seeing how this tread is among the more enjoyable on tmd, so i'll just shut up (for now)

[orgcandman]

Maybe I'm just a stubborn ass. Maybe I'm just retarded. Maybe both ;D, but I just don't understand why you decided to exclude something like crucible strip.

IIRC, the weissman kind of control (and it seems that this wants to be weissman kind of control) would just tutor up a bomb, resolve it, get some card advantage working, resolve another bomb, get some MORE card advantage working, and finish up with a protected win condition. It seems like cruci-strip IS this bomb. I understand how old man is awesome sauce, but he's almost dead vs. workshop aggro (which may/may not still be viable but that's for another discussion), and combo. It doesn't significantly help the mirror, and it seems like its only there as a maindeck way of pre-emptively stopping CS from getting it's groove on. From my experiences with CS, moderate mana denial (meaning 2-3 strips) was enough to SIGNIFICANTLY stifle it's tempo. Further, the inclusion of recursive mana denial __could__ (note that I'm not ultra tested here, just talking theoretical, which means you could probably just give me the ol' SHADDAP UNTIL YOU TEST IT NUB response) improve some game 1 matchups against combo.

I definately am not saying "Oh Gawd, must replace RIGHT NOW" but more looking for what your reasoning for not including the cruci-strip engine was.