[Article] Optimizing Intuition Slaver, by Rich Shay

[Rico Suave]

I agree that Bus is really nice. I think that your statement about Intuitioning for Slaver is a little off, however. Oftentimes you'll just end up with Mindslaver in hand if you Intuition for it. The strength of Crucible is that in the early turns, it can still be cast. It has a not marginal advantage of making all your Brainstorms shuffle and making you hit every land drop.

I'd run Crucible in the Northeast where control is more prevalent. I'd use Pentavus everywhere else though, because as you said it is the modern Morphling.

Oh that's right.  You only play 1 Mindslaver, don't you?

I find that by using 2 Mindslavers I don't ever need a Crucible.  Even if I played against the mirror all day long, I would still not play Crucible because there are better things to Intuition for.

A lot of people have been discussing the Lava Dart slot.  The reason Rich plays Lava Dart main deck  is because in the NorthEast Control Slaver is the most popular deck.  If Control Slaver is a really popular deck in your area and you want to maximize your chances at winning those matches, then having a main deck Lava Dart is a good choice no matter whether or not you use Intuition (although Dart is particularly good with Intuition).

I thought the entire reason to play Lava Dart maindeck is because of Intuition.  I mean, yea it's nice to have a maindeck card that can trade 2:1 in the mirror, but a lot of cards can do that.  Lava Dart's real strength is in it's power to go into an Intuition along with 2 other threats.  Without that ability, I definitely wouldn't maindeck Lava Dart because on it's own the card is a bit weak compared to other options.

[Hi-Val]

Yep, I'm still in the Goth Slaver mindset of 1 Mindslaver. I've been playing around with 2 recently and I'm liking it a bit; it's also a lot more relevant with all the graveyard hate. I see what you mean about having 2 making crucible a lot less good. One of my favorite things about Intuition/AK is the instant speed of the entire operation. I like Deep Analysis, but casting it as a sorcery is always pesky. The team had lists and lists of Intuition but no AK slaver going far back; DA was the best fit in the AK slot. Intuition without ANY draw you can get with it (AK or DA) is pretty lousy in CS though.

Here's the big question (and what I always seem to be asking : ) ) Is Intuition/DA better than Mystical and Friends?

[doylehancock]

Yep, I'm still in the Goth Slaver mindset of 1 Mindslaver. I've been playing around with 2 recently and I'm liking it a bit; it's also a lot more relevant with all the graveyard hate. I see what you mean about having 2 making crucible a lot less good. One of my favorite things about Intuition/AK is the instant speed of the entire operation. I like Deep Analysis, but casting it as a sorcery is always pesky. The team had lists and lists of Intuition but no AK slaver going far back; DA was the best fit in the AK slot. Intuition without ANY draw you can get with it (AK or DA) is pretty lousy in CS though.

Here's the big question (and what I always seem to be asking : ) ) Is Intuition/DA better than Mystical and Friends?

I personally think it is.  The reason being is you can get two great artifacts in your graveyard for 3 mana.  It can also get you 3 FOW if you have the game sealed, it can do so much.  I didnt think it was going to be better but after testing it I believe CS is better with intiuiton and DA.

[Necrologia]

It can also get you 3 FOW if you have the game sealed, it can do so much.

If the game is already sealed does it matter if you have Mystical or Intuition in hand?

[doylehancock]

It can also get you 3 FOW if you have the game sealed, it can do so much.

If the game is already sealed does it matter if you have Mystical or Intuition in hand?

no it might not.  But that was only one part of my full explaination on the subject.  I appreciate you taking the time to pick that piece and argue about it.  Mystical tutor cant put 2 artifacts in your graveyard and one in your hand though.

[Ultima]

One of the main reasons to include crucible is because in the early game, you can intuition with a welder in play for COW/Stripmine/Whatever and just win from there.  I don't really understand this mindset of it being a tertiary gameplan since you can't just intuition for pentavus and always expect to get it into the yard.  When you resolve intuition in the early game, COW/Strip is almost a garunteed win while getting bus/draw or whatever doesn't garuntee anything for you.  That can be as early as turn 2 for the win, so why are so many people talking about slaver locks and pentavus being better when crucible/strip can win so much faster? I've heard people saying that you can intuition for better things, so tell me what would be better in the early game than COW/Strip that is garunteed to work?

[doylehancock]

One of the main reasons to include crucible is because in the early game, you can intuition with a welder in play for COW/Stripmine/Whatever and just win from there.  I don't really understand this mindset of it being a tertiary gameplan since you can't just intuition for pentavus and always expect to get it into the yard.  When you resolve intuition in the early game, COW/Strip is almost a garunteed win while getting bus/draw or whatever doesn't garuntee anything for you.  That can be as early as turn 2 for the win, so why are so many people talking about slaver locks and pentavus being better when crucible/strip can win so much faster? I've heard people saying that you can intuition for better things, so tell me what would be better in the early game than COW/Strip that is garunteed to work?

have you played slaver with intuition and no COW or strip?  Its better without.  If you have a welder in play why would you intuition for COW, strip, and something else.  Why not go for slaver, pent, slaver? 

[The Atog Lord]

I’m really happy that the article has lead to such great discussion. Thank you all.

First, many of you have been commenting on the Lava Dart slot. This is, as you’ve figured out, the most cuttable card in the deck. It is simply a maindeck sideboard card,  though as Brad pointed out, one made more powerful than it otherwise is by the inclusion of Intuition. Is your local metagame filled with 1/1 creatures, especially the red sort? Then this card may be worth including. However, in a metagame full of Oath, I’d rather have Platinum Angel. In a more varied metagame, something like Cunning Wish would be fine – or even an additional mana source.

As for the matter of two Mindslavers. Yes, Doug, this is one important way in which Intuition Control Slaver differs from Goth Slaver. While Goth Slaver can use Intuition to set up a crucible style combo, Control Slaver mostly uses Intuition as a giant Entomb; having a second Mindslaver in the deck enables this.

So, why Pentavus over Crucible? Because I never deliberately try for a lock. Sometimes it happens, and is something that is often set up after a Yawgmoth’s Will. However, I never play a game with it in mind; rather, against the vast majority of decks that I play against, a single Mindslaver use is enough to all but guarantee victory. Therefore, I don’t dedicate more space  than the Pentavus in the way of locking.

And the Pentavus alone is a very powerful card. He single-handedly can take down a Madness deck. He is amazing against Stax. He can deal with a huge Sundering Titan. And of course, he can also lock someone up. Moreover, combined with Welder.

Here's the big question (and what I always seem to be asking : ) ) Is Intuition/DA better than Mystical and Friends?

Sad to say, Doug, but I’m still not sure. I’ve been liking both builds, but I’ve just not sure which one is better than the other. I wish I had a more clever or insightful response, but I don’t. Intuition is strong in the mirror match, becoming a must-counter. In the games in the article against ELD,  Intuition cracked open more games than Skeletal Scrying and friends. At the same time, I recently went to a tournament in which I lost terribly to two aggro decks. Cards like Mystical Tutor and Platinum Angel would have been really nice there. So, I’m still not sure yet.

[Machinus]

One of the main reasons to include crucible is because in the early game, you can intuition with a welder in play for COW/Stripmine/Whatever and just win from there.  I don't really understand this mindset of it being a tertiary gameplan since you can't just intuition for pentavus and always expect to get it into the yard.  When you resolve intuition in the early game, COW/Strip is almost a garunteed win while getting bus/draw or whatever doesn't garuntee anything for you.  That can be as early as turn 2 for the win, so why are so many people talking about slaver locks and pentavus being better when crucible/strip can win so much faster? I've heard people saying that you can intuition for better things, so tell me what would be better in the early game than COW/Strip that is garunteed to work?

I completely agree with this. Setting up crucible lock in the early game is really strong against so many of the best decks. Drain decks need mana to protect their win conditions, and shop decks cant function without the mana bonus. I think crucible is good enough that it might even be worth it to run two copies so that you could hardcast it in the early game to solidify your manabase and make your thirsts much better. I really like crucible as a control card. That being said, I don't have to face a lot of strong aggro in my area, so that isn't as important a consideration.

I still think platinum belongs in the deck no matter what.

[jpmeyer]

One of the main reasons to include crucible is because in the early game, you can intuition with a welder in play for COW/Stripmine/Whatever and just win from there.  I don't really understand this mindset of it being a tertiary gameplan since you can't just intuition for pentavus and always expect to get it into the yard.  When you resolve intuition in the early game, COW/Strip is almost a garunteed win while getting bus/draw or whatever doesn't garuntee anything for you.  That can be as early as turn 2 for the win, so why are so many people talking about slaver locks and pentavus being better when crucible/strip can win so much faster? I've heard people saying that you can intuition for better things, so tell me what would be better in the early game than COW/Strip that is garunteed to work?

have you played slaver with intuition and no COW or strip?  Its better without.  If you have a welder in play why would you intuition for COW, strip, and something else.  Why not go for slaver, pent, slaver? 

If it's a really early turn, you either a) may not be able to activate the Slaver or b) may not be able to do much to your opponent if you can activate the Slaver.  Meanwhile, Crucible would be a hard lock.

[nataz]

As for the matter of two Mindslavers. Yes, Doug, this is one important way in which Intuition Control Slaver differs from Goth Slaver. While Goth Slaver can use Intuition to set up a crucible style combo, Control Slaver mostly uses Intuition as a giant Entomb; having a second Mindslaver in the deck enables this.

Yep, I'm still in the Goth Slaver mindset of 1 Mindslaver

This seems odd now, because when Goth Slaver first started to become widespread, 2 mindslavers was the norm for the very reasons Rich mentioned. When did this change? I know Ultima ran only one mindslaver in his waterbury decklist, but other then that I thought the 2 slaver plan was still the norm. 
 

[Anusien]

RE nataz: I think the 1x Slaver configuration was for more space, especially when Ultima I think it was, squeezed in Deep Analysis in addition to AK in his Slaver build.

Re Crucible: I don't know, this slot has always been underwhelming to me, and I agree with AtogLord; what decks are going to survive one Mindslaver activation?  Besides which by the time you fire off Mindslaver you get at least two, most likely, from Moxen.  Are you really going to go for Crucible/Pentavus first when the pressure is on, or are you going to Mindslaver first to check out the hand?  Then you go for Mindslaver, and a lock, and 4 more Slaver activations aren't really all the different, especially when you consider that you're going to be swinging with Pentavus in the meanwhile.  On its own, Pentavus is also much more abstractly powerful than Crucible, and the deck is already hurting for colored mana, running both Boseiju and Library of Alexandria.

Here's the big question (and what I always seem to be asking : ) ) Is Intuition/DA better than Mystical and Friends?

Sad to say, Doug, but I’m still not sure. I’ve been liking both builds, but I’ve just not sure which one is better than the other. I wish I had a more clever or insightful response, but I don’t. Intuition is strong in the mirror match, becoming a must-counter. In the games in the article against ELD,  Intuition cracked open more games than Skeletal Scrying and friends. At the same time, I recently went to a tournament in which I lost terribly to two aggro decks. Cards like Mystical Tutor and Platinum Angel would have been really nice there. So, I’m still not sure yet.

I like tutoring of Intuiton better than the draw of Scrying/Fact, especially since Intuition is cheaper.  I think that 2 DA might be a little on the low side (reasons below), but I definitely prefer it over a different engine.  For instance, I had Goth with Fact instead of Mystical.  You sit there with a 2U card (Intuition) that says "I Win" and a 3U or XB spell that doesn't say "I win".  It's obvious which you're going to cast.

Aside questions:

#1) How is the 2x Deep Analysis faring for everyone.  I've had troubles, especially if one eliminates the Lava Dart slot (later on), where I'm unsure what to Intuition for.  You go for Deep, Deep, x, and whatever the X is usually going into the graveyard.  If you're not going for the win, and you're not running Lava Dart, should I just stick a Mindslaver here to make sure I get double use of a Deep Analysis, or to facilitate me Thirst for Knowledging it out later?

#2) <Steals tech from SSB> Anyone consider Recoup in the Lava Dart spot?  You have basically 3 Sorceries, and all of them are game breaking.  Let's say you go Intuition for Recoup, Demonic Tutor, Tinker.  No matter how they do the Intuition stack you get to cast both Demonic Tutor and Tinker.  This might be an option to let you Intuition and get Yawgmoth's Will to end it; say you Intuition for Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will, Deep Analysis; you fire off the draw, win the counterwar over Yawgmoth's Will and win the game.  This does however leave you with few outs versus Welders, especially if you move Platz main to improve your game versus combo/Oath.

[nataz]

RE nataz: I think the 1x Slaver configuration was for more space, especially when Ultima I think it was, squeezed in Deep Analysis in addition to AK in his Slaver build.

I realize it was to add more space, but I'm just surprised that both rich and Hi-Val considered it to be the norm.

Re Crucible: I don't know, this slot has always been underwhelming to me, and I agree with AtogLord; what decks are going to survive one Mindslaver activation?

I think what Ultima and others are talking about is not the late game crucible, but the occasional early game crucible. Turn two/three off drain mana you may not be able to both intuition and pay for the slaver activation. In that situation it is often much better to go for the crucible, strip, x config (where x=slaver,dart, deep, etc.) and go for the strip mine lock the following turn.   

 

[Rico Suave]

If it's a really early turn, you either a) may not be able to activate the Slaver or b) may not be able to do much to your opponent if you can activate the Slaver.  Meanwhile, Crucible would be a hard lock.

Intuition costs 3, so I'd assume that 4 wouldn't be too hard to achieve considering most times the deck will be casting Intuition EOT, untapping, and getting a land drop.  If an activated Mindslaver would not work, then your opponent either can't do anything (in which case you're winning anyway) or they're in the process of beating you down, and thus it'd be much better to have Plat/Pentavus than Crucible. 

I like tutoring of Intuiton better than the draw of Scrying/Fact, especially since Intuition is cheaper.  I think that 2 DA might be a little on the low side (reasons below), but I definitely prefer it over a different engine.  For instance, I had Goth with Fact instead of Mystical.  You sit there with a 2U card (Intuition) that says "I Win" and a 3U or XB spell that doesn't say "I win".  It's obvious which you're going to cast.

Well if we're going to start using these terms, are you familiar with EOTFOFYL?  I would definitely consider FoF to be an "I win" card.  Also, in order for Intuition to actually start drawing cards it requires at least 5 mana to pump out an Intuition and flashback a DA. 

Aside questions:

#1) How is the 2x Deep Analysis faring for everyone.  I've had troubles, especially if one eliminates the Lava Dart slot (later on), where I'm unsure what to Intuition for.  You go for Deep, Deep, x, and whatever the X is usually going into the graveyard.  If you're not going for the win, and you're not running Lava Dart, should I just stick a Mindslaver here to make sure I get double use of a Deep Analysis, or to facilitate me Thirst for Knowledging it out later?

#2) <Steals tech from SSB> Anyone consider Recoup in the Lava Dart spot?  You have basically 3 Sorceries, and all of them are game breaking.  Let's say you go Intuition for Recoup, Demonic Tutor, Tinker.  No matter how they do the Intuition stack you get to cast both Demonic Tutor and Tinker.  This might be an option to let you Intuition and get Yawgmoth's Will to end it; say you Intuition for Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will, Deep Analysis; you fire off the draw, win the counterwar over Yawgmoth's Will and win the game.  This does however leave you with few outs versus Welders, especially if you move Platz main to improve your game versus combo/Oath.

#1) It depends on the situation you are facing, and what your game plan is.  With Welder out you can go find Mindslaver, but if you don't need it just yet you can also find anything to help set up Will.  Black Lotus is a common target in that instance.  Nothing removes a Welder like a Dart though. 

#2) Recoup, on it's own, affects a grand total of 4 cards in the deck.  It's nice with Intuition, but really, don't you have enough things for that card to do?  Recoup follows the same line of thought as Crucible - it's mediocre on it's own unless you happen to draw a specific restricted card(s) and have plenty of time to develop these cards into game winning plays.

I think what Ultima and others are talking about is not the late game crucible, but the occasional early game crucible. Turn two/three off drain mana you may not be able to both intuition and pay for the slaver activation. In that situation it is often much better to go for the crucible, strip, x config (where x=slaver,dart, deep, etc.) and go for the strip mine lock the following turn.   

I disagree.  I'd much rather go for a Mindslaver lock the following turn.  Cruc-Strip isn't even a lock anyway, since it still gives them room to breath and escape with a win.

[Hi-Val]

Since we're talking about decks that don't get royally hosed by one Slaver activation, I think it's necessary to mention 3cc. All the times that it's been Slaved, it's been underwhelming. Bring up all the theory you want; in practice, there just isn't much you can do to muck up the deck because it is so reactionary. 3cc will see less play now and be an easier match for CS because of Boseiju, Who Shot Nixon, but I figure it's a relevant deck to bring up.

[Anusien]

Well if we're going to start using these terms, are you familiar with EOTFOFYL?  I would definitely consider FoF to be an "I win" card.  Also, in order for Intuition to actually start drawing cards it requires at least 5 mana to pump out an Intuition and flashback a DA.

Actually I find Fact or Fiction sub-par to Intuition here in a lot of respects, because Intuition sets up the win, where Fact or Fiction doesn't.  It's a ridiculous card, but Intuition is also.  And yeah, I've heard of EOTFOFYL, but with an active Welder and a mox on the table, which would you rather have?  Intuition for Slaver, Slaver, x, or Fact or Fiction?  Also considering Intuition is cheaper (and you're draining for 2 more often then 3).

#2) Recoup, on it's own, affects a grand total of 4 cards in the deck.  It's nice with Intuition, but really, don't you have enough things for that card to do?  Recoup follows the same line of thought as Crucible - it's mediocre on it's own unless you happen to draw a specific restricted card(s) and have plenty of time to develop these cards into game winning plays.

My point was more that Yawgmoth's Will is sort of ridiculous to find, given that aside form standard draw, you have Demonic Tutor to find it.  That's it.  You don't even have the 4 AK of Goth Slaver.  Unless you're already slaving them, you'll never get Will in an intuition.  Recoup gives you the option to eot Intuition into Recoup, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, untap and win the game.

[The Atog Lord]

And yeah, I've heard of EOTFOFYL, but with an active Welder and a mox on the table, which would you rather have?

But that's just the point -- most of the time, I'd rather resolve Fact or Fiction than Intuition if I don't have a Welder in play. And that's part of why its so difficult to place one build over another. Intuition makes the deck more reliant on Goblin Welder than before.

[andrewpate]

I have to agree that Intuition certainly forces the deck to rely more on Goblin Welder.  This makes it more of a metagame call, in my assessment.  Similar to how the Hanna's Custody version of Stax is better sometimes, the Fact or Fiction/Mystical Tutor/whatever build of CS can be better if people are expecting tons of Welders and bring the hate.  If you are planning on relying on Welder heavily, though, Intuition and 2xMindslaver is clearly the way to go.  Deep Analysis is very solid draw and so Intuition will never be dead and usually be massively broken.

As to Recoup, I agree that it isn't good with that many cards in the deck.  But isn't running a 1-of that allows you to Intuition for a spell like Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker a worthwhile inclusion, even if it's limited?  Think of all the decks that chuck in a Darksteel Colossus they can practically never hardcast just as a Tinker target!  This is basically the same thing.  Recoup is certainly worth a look.

[Echoing Truth]

I recently played this at a local event, and I just love this build.  I played with Platty maindeck in place of the Lava Dart, with two darts in the board, and also a 7/10 in board.  I piloted it to a split for the win, and it turned out a lot of broken plays.

I found Boseiju to be just amazing in here.  Robbing Tog the chance to counter, and acting like a Strip Mine in some instances, this card was pretty good.  On the subject of two Deep Anals, I thought they were definitely solid at that number.  Intuitioning up one or two with a slaver ended up winning every game it resolved.  Though there were definitely times I could have used FoF, I was pretty happy with the Deep anals in its place.  I never really missed Mystical Tutor, as I virtually always had enough business spells in hand to keep me busy.

In reguards to Pents vs CoW, I really like Pents.  While a CoW/Strip lock can be really tough, a 5/5 beater that lets your welders ravage your graveyard is really good too.  IMO, beating down while slave locking is a better then recurring artilands for the lock.

[Rico Suave]

Actually I find Fact or Fiction sub-par to Intuition here in a lot of respects, because Intuition sets up the win, where Fact or Fiction doesn't.  It's a ridiculous card, but Intuition is also.  And yeah, I've heard of EOTFOFYL, but with an active Welder and a mox on the table, which would you rather have?  Intuition for Slaver, Slaver, x, or Fact or Fiction?  Also considering Intuition is cheaper (and you're draining for 2 more often then 3).

LoL.  First of all, if I have an active Welder and I have a choice between resolving FoF or resolving Intuition, then I doubt that it's going to matter at all because either one is probably going to lead to victory. 

Secondly, FoF does set up Welder.  Revealing a Mindslaver off FoF is an infinitely larger boner than casting Intuition for it.

My point was more that Yawgmoth's Will is sort of ridiculous to find, given that aside form standard draw, you have Demonic Tutor to find it.  That's it.  You don't even have the 4 AK of Goth Slaver.  Unless you're already slaving them, you'll never get Will in an intuition.  Recoup gives you the option to eot Intuition into Recoup, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, untap and win the game.

Well if you didn't play Intuition you could play Mystical Tutor and find Will/Tinker with much less mana, not to mention early game it can find Ancestral Recall.  That's more than I can say about Recoup.

[Windfall]

Oh alright, I suppose I'll jump in here...

I like the Deep Analysis in the deck because I have always wanted to play with Intuition.  The reasons that I have been reluctant to do so is because I also don't like AKs in Slaver, and I also don't think Crucible is good.  There has already been enough discussion on this matter, so I'm just going to say one thing about Crucible and then move on to more important aspects of this deck - the creature(s).

Crucible of Worlds seems strong if you get it out, and I would have no problem running Seat of the Synod in a Shaman-less environment (Slaver is already a beating vs Stax).  However, the Strip Mine route to victory seems a bit ridiculous to me.  Control Slaver just wants to draw a bunch of cards and start doing really broken shit, and it does so very well.  Wasting time trying to stunt the opponent's mana with Strip Mine doesn't really fit here.  You are not playing with Smokestacks and Trinispheres, where Strip Mine is a house.  Since Type 1 utilizes mostly cheap spells and curves tend to top off at 3, a random Strip Mine is not going to lock the game.  Sure, it might steal one or two every now and then, but I mostly see Crucible being useful for the sole purpose of hitting your land drop every turn.  Also, when you Intuition for it, you're never getting Crucible in hand.

Having useful active Welders is getting harder and harder.  I find myself playing through a sea of Chalices set at zero, Phyrexian Furnaces, and Lava Darts, so it's hard to get an active Welder and even when I do he usually just sits there.  Thus, I've always tried to rely on him as little as possible.  Sometimes he wins me the game for one mana, but I try my best to be able to win without him.  It's important in today's field.

Is Pentavus the creature?  He might be.  Platinum Angel is a solid maindeck card, but she does nothing against control decks and she is not the house against Oath as she once was.  Ancient Hydra beats the hell out of Slaver, and if Oath is maindecking it, we will probably lose Game 1 unless we can control their board with more draw and counters.  It's not an easy matchup by any means.

Maindecking Triskelion is good in a Slaver field, but with the Lava Dart main, I don't think he's needed.  He's another dead card vs. Oath and I honestly think Oath is the deck to beat and will be for SCG Chicago once again.  With that in mind, I'm trying to tune Slaver to beating it games 2 and 3 since if Hydra hits play in game 1, I'll probably have no choice but to scoop.  Because of this deck, my team actually did consider Clockwork Dragon before reading any of this because he's not Red or Black and can block Akroma every turn.  I'm sure there are better options out there, so I'm not advocating Dragon, but he does serve a purpose, though not maindeck... 

     ~Mark B.

[Webster]

There are a few problems that I have with clockwork dragon:

1. It is very mana intensive to put +1/+1 counters on it. Three mana for each counter ties up a lot of your resources such that the oath player would be able to force though spells that they want to resolve without much resistance.

2. Even with 8+ counters on a clockwork dragon, it is still vulnerable to akroma if there's an ancient hydra in play; first strike resolves then the oath player shoots the dragon with the hydra however many times they need to.

3. Duplicant seems strictly better when concerned _only_ with the oath match-up because it sends the oath player's creatures farming. The downside of duplicant being that it isn't nearly as fast of a clock as clockwork dragon is.


David Ochoa

[Windfall]

Right, I never meant to say that Clockwork Dragon is a good creature choice for the Oath matchup.  I was simply stating that when I was searching for non red or black creatures with toughness 7 or greater, he was something I thought of since there is not much available to me.  The idea I had was to find a creature I could board in to Oath up myself, that would either sit there and block or be able to win - there just isn't anything that can sit there and ping without being Red.  If anyone knows of something, please post it here because it would help us Slaver players beat the gayness that is Oath.

Duplicant is probably the best choice, but he does little to Pristine Angel.  New Oath decks are pretty efficient at owning Slaver in game 1, so I'm doing my best to think of tech to win after board.  Chalice = zero and Furnace are really good against Slaver, and it's a pretty tough matchup.  Against eveything else in the field, I'm pretty confident I can win.

[jazzykat]

Here is a suggestion and a question:

How about using tormod's crypt vs. oath. If that is possible then how when is the best time to apply it. I am very fuzzy with the parts of the phase and oath rulings in general.

[doylehancock]

Right, I never meant to say that Clockwork Dragon is a good creature choice for the Oath matchup.  I was simply stating that when I was searching for non red or black creatures with toughness 7 or greater, he was something I thought of since there is not much available to me.  The idea I had was to find a creature I could board in to Oath up myself, that would either sit there and block or be able to win - there just isn't anything that can sit there and ping without being Red.  If anyone knows of something, please post it here because it would help us Slaver players beat the gayness that is Oath.

Duplicant is probably the best choice, but he does little to Pristine Angel.  New Oath decks are pretty efficient at owning Slaver in game 1, so I'm doing my best to think of tech to win after board.  Chalice = zero and Furnace are really good against Slaver, and it's a pretty tough matchup.  Against eveything else in the field, I'm pretty confident I can win.

I would rather have edicts and tormods crypts in the board.  Edict wrecks oath (as long as you can remove the graveyard).  Even echoing truth would be better then dragon.  I run edicts and crypts in my build and I am 6-0 in the last 2 weeks versus Oath in tourneys.

[Windfall]

The problem I have with using both of those cards is that you have to have them both in order to win.  Also, Tormod's Crypt has the "disadvantage" of costing zero in this case, which is a problem because they will probably have Chalice of the Void in play.  Oath is so fast in that it drops its threats on turn one or two and puts you on a fast clock.  Not to mention, you'll need to have two edicts in order to keep from losing.  That's three cards you need early in the game - seems a bit demanding to me.

@Jazzykat
It all depends on what you're trying to do with the Crypt.  If you want to stop the Blessing recursion, you activate your Crypt in response to the Blessing trigger on the stack.  It's even better if they have a creature in the graveyard from a previous turn already.

Again, the thing about Crypt that I don't like is the fact that it costs zero and Chalice of the Void is already a beating; I want to lessen the effects of the hate cards as much as possible by not bringing in more cards that they will affect.

     ~Mark B.

[doylehancock]

The problem I have with using both of those cards is that you have to have them both in order to win.  Also, Tormod's Crypt has the "disadvantage" of costing zero in this case, which is a problem because they will probably have Chalice of the Void in play.  Oath is so fast in that it drops its threats on turn one or two and puts you on a fast clock.  Not to mention, you'll need to have two edicts in order to keep from losing.  That's three cards you need early in the game - seems a bit demanding to me.

@Jazzykat
It all depends on what you're trying to do with the Crypt.  If you want to stop the Blessing recursion, you activate your Crypt in response to the Blessing trigger on the stack.  It's even better if they have a creature in the graveyard from a previous turn already.

Again, the thing about Crypt that I don't like is the fact that it costs zero and Chalice of the Void is already a beating; I want to lessen the effects of the hate cards as much as possible by not bringing in more cards that they will affect.

     ~Mark B.

edicts you will draw.  You have so much draw in the deck you will get to them.  Side in 2-3 edicts and 1-2 crypts and you will be fine.  I realize that maybe be 5 cards in your side for oath but if you are worried why not have them there?

[jazzykat]

Then I guess we need some jank card that we have all forgotten about. I would say how about bounce but you are screwed next turn (when the next of the bastards comes up) can always bounce the oath, buying you 2 turns which might be enough(provided they have not oathed already). Duplicant is awesome but not a sure thing.

Is there a card that removes flying from all creatures? That way you can block with oath creatures and have your own Mofo to oath up next turn.

Jank brainstorming in session:
Skull catapult comes up in my mind as a way to get rid of tokens.

Claws of gix as well but costs 0 to cast.

Pandemonium is funny, or cabal therapy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jester's cap removes their win conditions.

Extract removes one win condition.

Can stifle stop an oath activation?

Engineered Explosives

Blood Moon before they have a chance to play oath. Should make it hard for them unless they can find a basic forest, lotus, or mox emerald.

Maze of ith + Crucible????

[doylehancock]

I would still say edicts are the best choice though right now in my meta Cranial Extraction is seeing a lot of play.

[Eddie]

Is there a card that removes flying from all creatures? That way you can block with oath creatures and have your own Mofo to oath up next turn.

Gravity Sphere. But seriously, I wouldn't look that far. If you're not careful someone might suggest Island of Wak-Wak.