Doomsday deck

[Inkaras]

I had a question for Stephen Menendian about side boarding with this deck. Your article covered a ton of ground most of which I am still going over. I did read the entire thing but it's a lot of info to process and will take some time to really grasp it all. In the mean time I was wondering your thoughts on what the new SB would look like and in general how to SB for different current matchups. ex, vs TPS, Slaver, Staxs, etc.

I also had a question about rebuild. Are you using it now because it also helps return your artifacts and so could help with a storm count? Otherwise I don't understand it as Hurkyl's recall is 1 cheaper. Your not planning on cycling it are you?

Thanks for answering me on these questions. The deck is very fun to play and noramlly is my combo deck of choice.

[Hi-Val]

I can't answer the first, but in the second question, the reason that Rebuild is run is because you can cycle into the Doomsday kill if you dast DDay. This is not an uncommon occurance.

As for your question about sideboarding, you can probably get some help here. I think Steve might have another article in the works about sideboarding and such. He's on holiday from these boards so you won't get an answer from him here. However, if you're determined to hear an answer from him, you can always email him.

[Komatteru]

I also had a question about rebuild. Are you using it now because it also helps return your artifacts and so could help with a storm count? Otherwise I don't understand it as Hurkyl's recall is 1 cheaper. Your not planning on cycling it are you?

Smmenen is taking a break from TMD at the current moment. For more details, see the community forum.  You can reach him by email (in his profile) if you want to discuss it directly with him.

Actually, the cycling aspect is the reason to include Rebuild.  In general, you do not need to build up storm with Rebuild.  The deck only runs two moxes (and not all the other stuff like Mana Crypt and all the stuff that goes into Long or TPS that made rebuild broken in that deck), and so you're not able to net mana from Rebuild (or gain mana, as was often the case) as well as storm.  In addition, consider the different goal: when you go for the beacon win, you only need to ramp up 4 storm.  When you go for the Tendrils kill, you're usually playing Yawgmoth's Will in there, so you probably don't need 2 more storm from Rebuild.  In addition, you play lots of basic lands, so you can afford to wait and get 3 lands to play the Rebuild instead of Hurkyl's Recall.

Doug Linn and I discussed the strengths of rebuild briefly some time ago.  The fact that you can cycle redudant copies is amazing.  In fact, if you don't need them, you can cycle them to improve your card quality before DDaying.  In addition, if you have extra mana and the situation warrants it (like your Ancestral has been Coffin Purged, which happened to Steve, if you read his report from SCG III), you can cycle the Rebuilds to get another card after you have DDayed, which is pretty good.

Edit: Dammit, Doug! Sneaking your post in there before I finished mine...

[Inkaras]

Thanks to you both, I figured that might be the reason for rebuild over recall but wasn't sure. Also how do you know when it's best to cycle it? Example would I normally hold it in hand or do it right away.  tend to be a careful player and that is probably the wrong attitude to have with this deck.

[SecondDeath]

Can someone post a decklist? thanks

[Necrologia]

Also how do you know when it's best to cycle it? Example would I normally hold it in hand or do it right away.

Like so much else with the deck it depends on what you have in hand. Using it to draw a card is fine when you don't have much else going for you. On the other hand if you already have Doomsday in hand and have used a little disruption it's probably better to hold on to it and wait for a ritual.

I tend to be a careful player and that is probably the wrong attitude to have with this deck.

When making the smallest mistake will cause you to lose immediately it's prefectly acceptable to be careful. As long as you aren't pretending to be mono blue you should be fine.

@SecondDeath

Here's Steve's most recent list from his SCG article:

3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground SEa

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

1 Chromatic Sphere

4 Doomsday
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Timetwister
2 Rebuild

1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Duress
4 Unmask
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Beacon of Destruction

[AmbivalentDuck]

I have a question about the decklist.  I don't have a premium membership so I haven't read the article... but why not include Mana Crypt?  It lets you "go off" on the Beacon stack for one colored mana less:

Ancestral
Lotus
Mana Crypt
Mind's Desire
Beacon

Costs 1U to go off in addition to prior costs during the turn, whereas:

Ancestral
Lotus
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
Beacon

Costs UB to go off.

[Dante]

I have a question about the decklist.  I don't have a premium membership so I haven't read the article... but why not include Mana Crypt?  

This deck is a colored mana whore.  Look at the need for black - Doomsday and Necro are all BBB, Tendrils had BB, Desire has UU.

The only spells with 2 colorless are Yawg Will, Twister, Tendrils, Desire...and rebuild.

Also, you'll find yourself using Necro more than you think and finding ways to damage yourself aren't that hot.

Bill

[Hi-Val]

In my original build of Doomsday, I had Crypt for precisely that reason (I also had 4 more chrome spheres). It made its way out because the deck really needed more basic lands. There were few spells that justified accelerating with 2 more colorless in the deck and the lifeloss was not insignificant. Unless you're going off on your first turn, there are usually few reasons to worry about needing that black for Dark Ritual. If you feel that Mana Crypt should be there though, add it by all means! It helps power up Rebuild as well, which is nice.

[Necrologia]

It's the same reason the deck doesn't run the off color moxen, everything is too color intensive. Doomsday is BBB, Tendrils is BB, and Desire is UU. In this deck, since all the mana sources make colored mana, 1U is functionally equivilent to UB. The situations where you can't find a black source of mana are extremely rare.

EDIT: Wow, seems I'm a really slow typer.

[SecondDeath]

the build looks REAL similar minus 2 cards from the last buld that smmemen put up.  i played it for a while and found that you would randomly lose to turn 1 chalice for 1.  rebuild is a great card in multiples, and can even allow you to go off on the same turn by drawing the top card off the doomsday.  Given enough mana of course.

[xrobx]

Ancestral
Lotus
Mana Crypt
Mind's Desire
Beacon

Costs 1U to go off in addition to prior costs during the turn, whereas:

Ancestral
Lotus
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
Beacon

Costs UB to go off.

Hmm, both of these 'going offs' still require you to have two lands in play, making the crypt a dead draw unless you go turn one c-sphere or something...??

I don't know, personally I find it much safer to drop a delta and risk it being stifled than it is to drop a crypt, which could see a counter/destruction/shaman/etc.  A mana source of type land is simply more powerful than a mana source of type artifact, with the intended purpose of going off the next turn, and both giving the same options/same result.

[Klep]

I have a question about the decklist.  I don't have a premium membership so I haven't read the article... but why not include Mana Crypt?  

The stacks you mentioned aren't really all that different.  With all of the other mana in this deck so concentrated in 2 colors, the difference between 1U and UB is almost nill.  I played this deck for a while and I never failed to go off for want of different colors.  The risks incurred by running Mana Crypt simply aren't worth what little gains there are.

[Anusien]

What moves have there been to develop a good sideboard?  I remember the old one (from Chicago, or wherever the deck debuted) was something that won't help so much now.  Back to Basics and Old Men are probably both antiquated.  As I see it, your options are basically:
Tormod's Crypt
Echoing Truth/Aether Spellbomb
Defense Grid
Energy Flux
Null Rod

and Energy Flux is probably losing some value in the face of Stax losing some popularity, along with Workshop Aggro taking a nosedive with the restriction of Trinisphere, along with Rebuild taking maindeck slots.  Your real threats are:
Other Combo: Belcher, DeathLong, TPS (Null Rod, maybe Crypt)
Control: Energy Flux
Oath: Echoing Truth/Spellbomb
Control Slaver: Crypt

Anything else that I'm forgetting?

[ohmyg0d1999]

I can already see one big difference with the choice of Rebuild over Hurks recall. Return ALL artifacts to owner's hand. Putting an end to your opponant's null rod, or chalice, plus if you still have your lotus, lion's eye, or mox in play you can set them back down for more storm.

I also had the most beautiful draw with Doomsday, today. I drew Unmask, Brainstorm, Black Lotus, Duress, Polluted Delta, Doomsday, and Lion's Eye Diamond. I won that turn. Which proves you can pop off with 1 mana, and a SWEET draw How did I play and win that turn?

[xrobx]

Heh...with that kind of a draw, there are probably a few ways you can do it.

method 1) I tried stacking:  Ancestral, Lotus, C-Sphere, Will, Tendrils
-24 life loss/gain

method 2) Alternatively, I tried using twister to wreck havoc; stack: twister, rebuild, will, tendrils, lotus
-26 life loss/gain

method 3) I wanted more damage, cuz I can...stack: Ancestral, Lotus, Petal, Desire, Beacon
-50 life loss/gain!!!

As you can see, beacon damage is by far the highest, but the tendrils has the ability of not being countered (storm).  There are many options to take, so unless you say how much damage you dealt, we'll not know how you killed the opponent

[Freelancer]

Heh...with that kind of a draw, there are probably a few ways you can do it.

method 1) I tried stacking: Ancestral, Lotus, C-Sphere, Will, Tendrils
-24 life loss/gain

method 2) Alternatively, I tried using twister to wreck havoc; stack: twister, rebuild, will, tendrils, lotus
-26 life loss/gain

method 3) I wanted more damage, cuz I can...stack: Ancestral, Lotus, Petal, Desire, Beacon
-50 life loss/gain!!!

As you can see, beacon damage is by far the highest, but the tendrils has the ability of not being countered (storm). There are many options to take, so unless you say how much damage you dealt, we'll not know how you killed the opponent

Actually both can be countered by countering the recall/will/lotus/chromatic sphere. The beacon kill can be countered at any point though.

Side note: You obviously remove the duress for unmask first.

[xrobx]

Actually both can be countered by countering the recall/will/lotus/chromatic sphere

No, the tendrils cannot be countered.  It storms, thus, you need to counter each copy of the spell, or simply stifle it.  Arguing the point that you can counter the recall/will/lotus/sphere is irrelevant, and the unmask would simply take your counter anyhow.  It's assumed that you protect your spell by either bs'ing a FoW to hand, or duressing/unmasking opposing counters away.

[Jacob Orlove]

Arguing the point that you can counter the recall/will/lotus/sphere is irrelevant.

I don't know what kind of opponents you play against, but I tend to assume that mine know what they're doing. No one is going to save their counterspell for your final kill when they can just counter Lotus or Will.

Sure, Tendrils of Agony itself is uncounterable. No one is disputing that, because it's ridiculously obvious. It's also totally irrelevant. You don't look at the strongest step to decide how vulnerable a combo deck is--you look to where it's weakest.

[xrobx]

I don't know what kind of opponents you play against, but I tend to assume that mine know what they're doing. No one is going to save their counterspell for your final kill when they can just counter Lotus or Will.

Well obviously   Who ever said they wouldn't counter the doomsday/tendrils?  This was not a question about countering anyhow, it was simply a response to the guys question of "How did I do it?"

But anyhow, on the same topic, DDD, what are the advantages of running 2x rebuild of 1x lim dul and 1x hurkyl's/rebuild?

Currently I'm testing with 1 Rebuild + 1 LimDul and it's doing quite well.  I really like the search that lim dul's provides, and I feel it often more necessary to search for a win right away instead of consistancy on the ability to cycle/up storm count. 

[Necrologia]

Well obviously Who ever said they wouldn't counter the doomsday/tendrils?

Perhaps you didn't intend it to sound that way, but saying it's irrelevant that they can counter the first few parts of the stack makes it sound like they only counter the last card. Also, countering the Doomsday is often a terrible play. Unless you suspect they have room to fit a duress in the stack or something, it's almost always better to let them stack their deck, then counter a key card to deck them.

The reason to run 2 Rebuilds is so that you have a reasonable chance of finding one before Shop decks can completely lock you out of the game. If you don't see many shop decks, cutting the Rebuilds for a Hurkyl's Recall and a Lim Dul's Vault seems fine. 

[the boogie man]

I doubt that the hurkyl's recall would work, because it doesn't cycle. the cycling often proves useful for picking up the top card of the stack. the recall just cant do that.

[Necrologia]

I doubt that the hurkyl's recall would work, because it doesn't cycle. the cycling often proves useful for picking up the top card of the stack. the recall just cant do that.

If you're running Hurkyl's you're using it purely as a storm booster, possibly to bouce the odd Null Rod or something. In that case the cheaper casting cost becomes a little more important. Without testing I couldn't say whether the cycling or the 1 greater cc would come up more often. Personally, I'd run rebuild, but if xrobx has no problems with shop decks then Hurkyl's will work well enough.

[the boogie man]

you really don't use this as a storm adder, because you only run, like, two moxes and a lotus. thats not really any good for storm boosting.

[Inkaras]

Hi Guys I posted this on another local site, thought I would share here as well. Had a rough time with doomsday. Side boarding was horrible for me, need help there, not sure what to take out really.

Thats right DoomsDay Disasters, yes I know I am clever aren't I. 

Anyways I am the first to admit that I am at best an average player. I often make silly plays or stupid mistakes when playing which in turn tend to cost me the game. I am also a sucker for Combo decks in general, its just fun to say "Hey I win" from out of nowhere. I also enjoy the complexity that a combo deck brings to the table. My favorite type 1 deck for a while now was longdeath. It's super hard to play and damn fun, Doomsday just seemed like even more fun, and in my opinion this is certainly true. So I decided to build it, the other great thing about this deck is I only need a total of 5 to 6 proxies which is fine with me and all these 10 proxy events. I took it to Marc's Big B Type I proxy for the Bazaar on SAT. Congrats on the win again Dan.

I ended up 2-3 for the day which may not sound as horrible as it feels, but lets be honest; I went 0-3 before winning my last 2 pointless rounds. 1 from a concession from Goblins (probably a good matchup for me anyways) and another from a random Samurai deck? Which despite it being such I actually had 2 good opening hands.

My Details are a little sketchy but lets see what I can remember and what mistakes I can recall. Round 1 I was paired against Finch. Personally I was not happy with this at all. Not because I don't like Finch (just the opposite actually) but because I was hoping for an easy first round, unfortunitly for me it did not happen. Game 1 he keeps what I think we both agree on was an ok hand. Nothing super amazing but nothing to horrible either. Lots of land for him. I also ended up keeping an ok hand, again nothing amazing though my opening hand I feel was better then Finchs. I drew a total of 3 lands that game. He stripped one mid game and I didn't see the third until the very end when of course it didn't matter. Very early it wasn't looking to good for him but the wasteland easily put him over the top of my inability to draw land. And lets face it he's a better player then me anyways and I am sure there may have been plays I missed but am just not seeing. He did comment though that this was not a matchup he knew very well and so wasn't totally sure how to sideboard. To be honest I am not a grat side boarder to begin with and I also didn't know all the cards in his deck since he was playing OFM.

I sided as such: -4 Unmask, -2 Duress, + 4 Legacy's Allure, + 3 Back to Basics. I have no clue if this was a good call or not, I honestly don't know what to take out of DD in order to SB, any help here would be welcomed.

Game 2: I really should have Mulliganed this hand, but I had some solid Disruption and search cards I figured I would hit an extra land or two and I'd be fine. It didn't happen. I had 2 Mox's and 1 Island all game. Finch drop an turn 3? Null Rod and it was basicly game as I was unable to draw land. In hindsight I had in hand rebuild. So I beleive the right play here is when he announces Null Rod I should tap and float mana and then once it resovles I should then cast rebuild? I didn't even realize I had that play until after the match was over but look back I think that is the right play for me. I think he had a counter or daze or something for backup but it would have been better then doing nothing.

So I am 0-1 thus far in the day.

Match 2 VS. Denholm. Also a nice guy to play verse. I believe he was playing control slaver though I never seen the slaver as he killed me game 1 with Pentavus. I had a little trouble drawing lands again, not sure why really. And he had no trouble at all counter all my important spells (3 FOW's damn you  ) and was able to easily win game 1.

I sided as such -3 Unmasks, -2 Duress, +3 Energy Flux +2 Null Rod. Again I know I Sided wrong because I never really wanted to see E flux, he got an early welder down and it didn't make a damns worth of difference. The star here was Null Rod for me, it basicly shut him down for the most part. Again though I am horrible and wasn't able to capitalize correctly on this. I was able to resolve a Necropotence which I proceeded to draw 10 cards. I am now at 8 life, I then play a few other spells and I end up at 2, and can't seem to stack things well enough to win that turn due to null rod (I had both lotus petal and Black lotus in play but couldn't use them because of my own null rod) I did have in hand a rebuild which I would have cast but I didn't have enough to do everything and a combination of Mecropotence and Null rod hosed me in the end worse then him. I am sure I played this game all wrong. To top things off I was 1 turn from winning when he attacks for 1 with goblin welder and then time walks for the win  Even though my ability to suck is high today I play on hoping to gain some insight and experience with the deck.

Round Vs? I don't remember his name to be honest but he was playing a tendrils based deck which when around Academy rector and bargin. Both games he played rector on turn 2 or 3 and then cabal therapy for my only FOW's got his basrgin went down to 1 life and won. Plain and simple he out combo'd me both games. He seen his combo before I seen mine and won. Nothing really to learn here as the games were fast and I only got 1 or 2 turns each game, and both times he took what little nuisness I had in my hand. So the moral here is mullagin better I guess. I don't remeber what I sided in if anything, I am sure I did I just don't remember.

The last 2 rounds don't matter, I won once verse some random samurai deck where I had turn 2 doomsday both games, and got a concession from a goblin player who was tired and didn't want to play. All in all a bad day for me, but fun all the same. I think without my mistakes I could have easily turn at least one of those games into a win for me.

Here was my SB in case anyone cares or would like to help me SB for the future.
2 Null Rod
3 Defence Grid
3 E flux
3 Back to basic
1 Chain of vapor
3 Legacy's allure (cheaper then old man of the sea as I don't have any)

I played the standard deck list. Again great trounament, lots of fun can't wait for the 24th now.

[Necrologia]

you really don't use this as a storm adder, because you only run, like, two moxes and a lotus. thats not really any good for storm boosting.

If you're running a single Hurkyl's Recall it certainly isn't as an answer to shop decks as you'll rarely find it quick enough. The only thing you could be using it for are to answer lesser threats such as Null Rod, and boosting storm. The deck runs 6 artifacts, hardly great, but I've used all of them along with some bounce to get Tendrils lethal at one point or another. I've already said I prefer Rebuild, so I'm not sure what else I can say on the topic.

I've recently tried Lim Dul's Vault in the deck and it just doesn't work as well as I'd like it to. Dragon can vault until it stacks Bazaar, Dragon, Animate for the win right there. This deck lacks enough real draw to be able to Vault successfully all the time. Outside of a lucky placing of Ancestral or Gush in the library, the best stack you can get is something like Brainstorm, Ritual, Doomsday. Even that will result in the opponent getting another turn to mess with you. Perhaps it's just my luck, but the deck just doesn't seem to have enough broken cards to dig into, or cheap enough combo to win right away. The lifeloss can also become a hassle after Doomsday takes it's share.

@Inkaras

As far as I know, siding that many Duress and Unmasks out is not a great idea. Knowing what's in your opponent's hand is key before casting Doomsday. Unmasks, at least are one of the key pieces of the deck. I'd usually start by cutting the Rebuilds then maybe start dropping the Duresses. A few of your sideboarding choices seem off as well. Control Slaver really doesn't care that much about Energy Flux. It often holds Moxen in hand anyway for Thirst, so forcing them to hold them for slaving won't have as much of an effect as you might think. Defense Grid would have served you much better here, just be careful about saccing lotus as it'll give welder a way to remove your grid at the most inconvenient times.

[exit music]

3 Legacy's allure (cheaper then old man of the sea as I don't have any)

How about Seasinger instead? It will give you a better game against Oath/Madness/OFM 2K5, ect ect. I'm pretty sure our metagame has evolved away from U/r fish, so Seasinger would be excellent.

[xrobx]

Hmm, I think we should focus on sbing options, as I find this one of the toughest decks to side for correctly.

Stax decks ravage this thing like there's no tommorow.  Should 3x energy flux and 2 rebuilds MD be enough for this matchup?  What other matchups deserve sb slots, and what should  be taken out?

[NCM]

How about Seasinger instead? It will give you a better game against Oath/Madness/OFM 2K5, etc ect. I'm pretty sure our metagame has evolved away from U/r fish, so Seasinger would be excellent.

I asked a Smmenen, in his SCG thread, what was essentially the same question.  He said that Seasinger might be a better metagame choice since you are most likely going to see UW Fish and Birdshit as opposed to UR Fish or something similar.  According to him your plan against CS is to resolve Defense Grid, and I'm pretty sure that you use similar plans against Oath and the like (which is better than what my normal plan against Oath is - pop a vein).  However, he also noted that Fish is dying down in popularity so it might not be needed.

Here is some more sideboarding advice from him.

CS:
-2 Rebuild
-1 C. Sphere/Unmask/Cabal Rit.
+3 Defense Grid

$T4CKS:
(Use Rebuild aggressively game 1)
-6 Tings
+3 Back to Basics
+3 Energy Flux

DeathLong:
-4 Tings (probably Rebuild and 2 more things)
+2 Null Rod
+2 Back to Basics

T to the P to the S:
-2 Rebuild (of course, it's an uncounterable way to draw into Ancestral after you've cast DDay, so you could afford to leave one in)
+2 Null Rod

(Combo) Belcher:
-2 Rebuild
+2 Null Rod

UW Landstill:
-1 C. Sphere
-2 Rebuild
-2 Unmask
+2-3 Defense Grids
+3 Back to Basics

Mirror Match:
Go first or disrupt them while their going off.  Other than that, pop a vein.

[xrobx]

As this hasn't been discussed in depth in any forums in awhile, although not many people know how to correctly play doomsday, we should probably take a look  at the different stacks available, and which are most efficient.  I'm going to comment on the beacon stacks for now, as will stacks get a lot more complex, and I'd like to see some discussion on this, with ideas, best options, etc.

Standard Stack
A no brainer, as long as you have 2+ mana sources in play.  It consists of:

Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Minds Desire
Beacon of Destruction

Stacking against Null Rod
Same as above pretty much, minus the lotus for a ritual.  This requires 4 mana sources however.

Ancestral
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
Beacon of Destruction

Stacking against Chalice at 1
This seems very inefficient, as you need 5 mana sources, and to play a spell the turn you go off.

Gush
Lotus
Rebuild
Mind's Desire
Beacon

Stacking against Chalice at 0
Requiring 4 mana sources....

Ancestral
Ritual
Ritual
Mind's Desire
Beacon



Obviously this isn't the best stacking options availble, but are some.  Please give feedback and ideas.  Also, it would be good to go over the yawgwill stacks.

You're bumping an old thread with an off topic post. Smmenen went over almost 20 different potential stacks in the article--we're not going to just cut and paste them for you.
-Jacob