When to counter?

[Freelancer]

@Freelancer
Your points are good.  The difference when playing Monoblue isn't that great from Fish, the only difference being that you are messing up their mana with Back to Basics instead of Null Rod.  In general, the permission decks say, "Hey, I have 6 pitch counters and 8 2-mana counters; I'm pretty sure I can win a war over a Yawgmoth's Will."  This is more or less the same as saying, "Hey, I have 4 pitch counters and 4 2-mana counters and a Null Rod in play; I'm pretty sure I can win a war over a Yawgmoth's Will."

Yeah I thought so, but I only played mono-U in T2 for a while (as the only heavy counter deck) so I figured better save than sorry.

Actually a fish deck usually has 4/5 pitch counters (depending on misdirection yes or no) and a couple off creature 'counters' (think spiketail and voidmage) and about 2/3 dazes (wich usually get cast for there alternate casting cost), so I am kinda wondering where you got the 4 2-mana counters from.

[Draven]

Here is another question: Take this scenerio:

It is turn 2 on your opponant turn, you have 2 Blue open. The cast a spell that isn't terrible threatning but worth countering. You have a Drain, a Force and a pitch card. You try to Drain the spell for a tempo boost rather than a threat stop. If they counter your Force, do you force their force (essentially going "all in" on that spell to get the drain mana) or do you let their Force resolve and save your Force for another target?

The true question is, if a spell is worth Countering initially, is it worth using all your available resources to ensure the spell is countered or if the quick Drain didn't work (they had a counter) should you cut your losses and save the force for something else?

[andrewpate]

That scenario depends largely on what deck you are facing.  Letting their Force of Will resolve is 2-for-1 advantage for you, which is fairly good, but going 3-for-3 might be a better choice depending on the spell.  For example, if you are facing Dragon and the "semi-threatening" spell is a Crop Rotation obviously going for Bazaar of Baghdad, then you abolutely want to go ahead and do it (and not just because of the land sack for Rotation) because Dragon has an extremely difficult time recovering the cards without the Bazaar.  If you were countering a Spiketail Hatchling against Fish, though, you should probably let it hit since they have plenty of card drawing and they already just wasted one of their only hard counters anyway.

It could also depend on what you wanted to do with the Mana Drain mana.  If you are playing Tog and planning on Draining into a game-breaking turn 2 Fact or Fiction, then you want to do what it takes to get that mana, even if it means burning a Force.

[Godder]

If someone will win as a result of this play, yes, otherwise, I'd say take the card advantage and run. It depends on your deck's plan, though.

[orgcandman]

This seems to be saying that, (and please Matt correct me if I'm wrong) if a tutor costs 2U, and the card it's fetching costs R, you'd have an easier time fighting with the opponent over 2U than over R. I will agree that in some cases, it is easier, but also I would like to add that in some cases it's actually beneficial to let your opponent fetch a cheap solution to lull them into a false sense of security and over commit, using it right away by walking into daze or mana leak. It's a very interesting topic though, and I'd like to have more discussion on what the correct types of plays for these situations are.

That is exactly what I'm saying, and something Saucemaster talked a bit about. I'm not sure I see the situation you're talking about though, could you give an example?

Actually, something of an example that HAS happened in a game before:

I pass the turn with library, and volcanic untapped. EOT, he mysticals finding ancestral, then brainstorms into ancestral. he has 1 mana left open. He goes for ancestral. I activate library in response. Then I daze. He forces, I force back, and suddenly, he lost a tutor, ancestral, brainstorm, and 2 cards in hand. I lost a daze, and 2 cards in hand. At that point, he over-committed into his ancestral.

This is really the kind of example I'm thinking of, as his tutor for ancestral cost UU, and he immediately attempted to use the ancestral, bleeding himself of resources.

Aaron

[Matt]

That's totally dependent on him walking into Daze, though. If he had just waited he'd have come out way ahead - it's not your good play, but his bad play that decided that counterwar. I don't think banking on your opponent screwing up is a good strategy.

Also, you're counting that totally wrong. He didn't LOSE the Brainstorm, he just plain USED it. He traded force for force (no change), brainstorm for ancestral (no change), tutor for nothing (-1), and ancestral for daze (no change). It wasn't really THAT backbreaking of a play except when you compare it to what would have happened if he had won the counterwar. He also turned off your Library for at least one turn (which is certainly of some benefit!), and found Ancestral (which, having done so, makes Yawgmoth's Will and stuff like Regrowth better).

[chairmanmao]

I have to say, this is one of the better threads I've ever had the pleasure of reading.  Everyones had some very good posts which I agree on.  I'll provide an example that I think will show a few key points that people have brought up.

I was playing 3 color control at ontario vintage championships 3, and I was playing against a U/w control deck.  I was going second and played a mystical tutor which my opponent didn't counter.  Now I basically have 2 options at this point, ancestral or decree.  Cause we all know uncounterable win conditions in the control mirror is good.  I think my opponent may have the stifle in his deck so I take the ancestral.

But as my opponent has allowed me to tutor I can now decide when and where we'll fight over the ancestral.  This ended up being at the end of his turn.  I lose the counter war over it, but deplete his hand and left myself with a cunning wish + skeletal scrying in mine.  This lets me refuel with the scrying and actually cast the ancestral.

So, while normally countering the mystical would normally be a bad thing, not doing it allowed me to fight the counter war when and where I wanted it.

The moral of the story, it's not if, it's when and how.  Game state and resources should have alot to do with your decisions about if and when to counter.