UG Fish :S

[Thissa]

I've tested this like 10 matches, so it most likely sucks, but its an interesting list and I feel like posting it:

FarFarFarWorseThanFish.dec or JehovaKnowsThisIsWorseThanFis h.dec

2 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Treetop Village
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 River Boa
3 Eternal Witness

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
1 Daze
1 Oxidize
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SB:
complete shit, but what I've got at the moment is this:

3 Root Maze
2 Seasinger
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Null Rod
3 Energy Flux
1 Black Lotus
3 ELVISH LYRIST

I haven't yet put quite enough thought into this sideboard, and I think y'all can tell :/

Really Wierd Things:

Eternal Witness.

He is incredible. Yes, he requires double green, but this deck can manage it. He is incredible. Want proof? Play Type 2. then play s'more T2. then, if you haven't experienced kidney failure, you can call yourself a man. Even if you are a barely post-pubescent 15 year old (...like me.)

Treetop Village.

This is probably better than Faerie Conclave except it produces green mana and makes the mana base really janky. But I've been lucky enough to maintain at least 1 blue source even in the face of Wasteland. Something tells me that will end fairly soon.

The 4 Janky 1-of Utility Spells.

These will usually show up an average of 1 time per match because this is fish. If you're me, this means you can bluff against slightly bad players. If you're sexier than me, this means you can bluff against slightly better players. If you're PTW, you can make all of your opponents take it up the pooper.

Don't pay attention to the sideboard, except for maybe Sword of Fire and Ice which has been quite good every time I've dropped it... and Seasinger is hotter than your sister.

[Webster]

I honestly don't see much potential with this decklist. There are several problems that I can immediately identify:

1. This deck lacks removal. What do you do against a resolved threat? Goblin welder and oath of druids are serious problems to which this deck has no answer to. The success of U/r fish and U/w fish is partly based on it's ability to remove the threats that _do_ manage to resolve through the forces and dazes. This U/g decklist lacks the removal aspect. There are no swords to plowshares, meddling mage, grim lavamancer, gorilla shaman to aid you with a resolved threat.

2. Treetop village is bad. Fish is not _a_ tempo deck; fish is _THE_ tempo deck. Having come-into-play-tapped lands always wanted me to mulligan. They just plain suck. They are way too slow. Secondly, treetop village does not produce blue mana, which is what you want all of your lands to produce with the exception of strip effects and mishra's factory.

3. As mentioned above, fish is all about tempo (playing threats and using null rod, wastes, dazes to slow down your opponent to your game speed allowing your small men to kill him). Increasing the average casting cost of the decks threats slows the deck down too much.

4. Running a lot of "one-ofs" greatly decreases deck consistancy. Daze is great and so is oxidize if they have a trinisphere or platinum angel. However, most of the time that you need one of whichever card, you won't have it. These 2-4 deckslots are often determined by the local metagame. Generally, running 2-3 daze is accepted as "the norm" because you want to see them. The last slots can be filled with whatever you are gunning to beat whether it be dragon, stax, or something else.


Eternal witness is good. I agree with you there. However, vintage is not a format defined by turn one birds, turn two wood elves. Vintage is much faster. Eternal witness in a tempo-based deck seems too slow to me.

One of the better cards in your list is root maze. Root maze slows decks down..... a lot. Root maze would be one of the main reasons that I would run green. However, without the ability to efficiently remove non-land permanent threats, green will be a suboptimal supporting color choice.


David Ochoa

[E Face]

Hey, nice to see the UG, I've been dying to play a deck similar to that for awhile now, but I just love having white too much with Ug that I cant cut it just yet. Anyways, since you didn't post any test results, I wanted to know how your matches against Oath and the rest of the Tier 1 field were. Oath seems tough because all you have are Lyrists and Seasingers, possibly Root Maze, but that just stalls.

I really love the Witnesses, they are so hot, but why not the lone Regrowth in there? Witness is great, but Regrowth slips in for one less mana, which is crucial in control matches. I dunno if you tested it and just found Witness strictly better, which would not surprise me at all. Another card I looked for but didn't find was Mystical Tutor. You could Mystical in response to Standstill breaking on yourself to grab one of the utility spells or a FOW or Ancestral and Walk. Just another thing I found interesting.

And just HOW good are the Swords, because they bone people with regularity in Standard, and the card advantage and shock are great, not to mention the extra fat bonus. I've seen the Ninja Sword list and its swears by them, but I have never really tested them outside of Madness, and I loved them there against Fish and Tog, so I'm willing to bet that having them in place of Curiosity perhaps isn't such a bad thing for the Maindeck. Just a though, correct me if I'm wrong though if you've already tested this theory.

p.s.... spell check for posting is the awesome sauce

[Webster]

Another card I looked for but didn't find was Mystical Tutor. You could Mystical in response to Standstill breaking on yourself to grab one of the utility spells or a FOW or Ancestral and Walk. Just another thing I found interesting.

If you meant something else, correct me please.

This statement is totally incorrect. With standstill in play, each time a player casts a spell, standstill will trigger. Upon resolution of the trigger, if standstill is in play, the controller must sacrifice it. You cannot play mystical tutor in response to the trigger _AND_ draw the three cards. Your opponent will draw them. So you would have to wait a full turn to get whatever you mystical tutored for baring your opponent breaking standstill on their turn and you having mystical tutor in hand which would be cast EOT.


David Ochoa

[Freelancer]

Another card I looked for but didn't find was Mystical Tutor. You could Mystical in response to Standstill breaking on yourself to grab one of the utility spells or a FOW or Ancestral and Walk. Just another thing I found interesting.

If you meant something else, correct me please.

This statement is totally incorrect. With standstill in play, each time a player casts a spell, standstill will trigger. Upon resolution of the trigger, if standstill is in play, the controller must sacrifice it. You cannot play mystical tutor in response to the trigger _AND_ draw the three cards. Your opponent will draw them. So you would have to wait a full turn to get whatever you mystical tutored for baring your opponent breaking standstill on their turn and you having mystical tutor in hand which would be cast EOT.


David Ochoa

Just to clarify; You can't mystical tutor and expect to draw the cards with standstill. You can however let the standstill trigger resolve than cast the mystical still in response to the 'original' spell. It might not get the original desired effect, but you can still make sure mystical resolves if the other card is a draw spell (less options for your opponent=good).

As people noted before there are some glaring mistakes;
1) Eternal witness while the nutz is way to slow. Just imagine casting a turn 2 rod (countered) than a turn 3 witness (recurring rod) than casting a turn 4 (!) rod again with something else. Meaning the first usefull thread comes down turn 4, in every other case the witness is a mid/late game card. Its also a amazing drain target.
2) No permanent removal, you have no backup plan. You die to whatever dangerous spell resolves, either make it Urg or Urw or expect to lose a lot. (to welders, curious critters etc.)
3) G mana over U mana is a no no in fish. You are already low on U mana because off factory and wastes, so you can't handle another 'collorless' land.
4) 3x mishra's factory, what are you thinking?! Factory is best in multiples and the best man-land by far, in a split second I would cut the treetop for another factory.
5) You need maindeck black lotus, its the total nuts in fish. Its the best tempo card (besides maybe time walk) there is, the drawback against welders is minor for the speed it gives you in the early game.

That's it for now, if I find anything else I'll let you know.

[Jacob Orlove]

And just HOW good are the Swords, because they bone people with regularity in Standard, and the card advantage and shock are great, not to mention the extra fat bonus. I've seen the Ninja Sword list and its swears by them, but I have never really tested them outside of Madness, and I loved them there against Fish and Tog, so I'm willing to bet that having them in place of Curiosity perhaps isn't such a bad thing for the Maindeck. Just a though, correct me if I'm wrong though if you've already tested this theory.

Sword of Fire and Ice is terrible in a deck that relies on getting Null Rod onto the table.

[E Face]

Oh wow, I did make a point that was a missplay, hah, now I feel like a jackass. And I even forgot that Null Rod was in the deck and that it shuts off equipment when I was talking about SOFI.

[Thissa]

Sword of Fire and Ice usually only comes in when Rods go out...

imo, the only problem with Eternal Witness is Mana Drain. But recursion is so good in Fish that I think it's worth running anyway... at least as a 2x. I usually don't drop it turn 3, I usually don't need to. Please test it just a bit before bashing it...

The lack of removal -
I cut the Suq'Ata Firewalkers from Jorlove's old list (for the Witnesses) because I'm sort of hoping the number of Welders will go down... ie, that the meta will hate out control slaver, but I will definitely add 3 Blue Blast to the sideboard though.

Black Lotus-
Since when did Fish ever run this :S

Factories and Treetops - I'm trying to get away with running a 1GG card as well as a ton of 1U cards, while running a bunch of colorless nonbasics. Can you blame me for cutting a Factory for a Treetop? It's really not that much worse than conclave :S

[Webster]

imo, the only problem with Eternal Witness is Mana Drain. But recursion is so good in Fish that I think it's worth running anyway... at least as a 2x. I usually don't drop it turn 3, I usually don't need to.

Mana drain is a very big problem which is another reason I don't like running high casting cost spells. I even grimmace when a 2 casting cost spell gets drained. As I said before, fish is all about slowing your opponent down to the speed at which you play, that is, a net increase of mana-per-turn of one. Mana drain throws a wrench into your game plan by letting your opponent have access to 2-3+ mana that they would not normally have which lets them go broken on you.

Please test it just a bit before bashing it...

I'm not trying to bash you. I just know what I'm talking about. I have extensive knowledge of the fish archetype, its varients, playstyle, and subtleties.

I cut the Suq'Ata Firewalkers from Jorlove's old list (for the Witnesses) because I'm sort of hoping the number of Welders will go down... ie, that the meta will hate out control slaver

The problem with that statement is that it relies on other variable factors in order to be true, namely, _other_ peole hating out welders. Until this actually happens, you will still have to deal with welders, oaths, etc. which will decrease your success in tournaments. The best way to win a tournament is to know what the local metagame will produce and bring a maindeck/sideboard accordingly.

Can you blame me for cutting a Factory for a Treetop? It's really not that much worse than conclave

Well, at least we agree that treetop is worse than conclave. However, I dislike conclave a lot. Conclave comes into play tapped, a quality which is not wanted in a tempo deck. Playing with lands that come into play tapped is like giving your opponent a pseudo timewalk. The activation cost on the urza's legacy man lands is far too much to warrent their inclusion. Mishra's factory is far superior because it only requires one colorless mana source being tapped to attack for two.

-Waterfront bouncer is good against traditional Meandeck oath.
-Suq'Ata firewalker is good against welders and lava dart.
-Ground seal is good against goblin welder.
-Gilded drake is good against big oath creatures with the exception of pristine angel.
-Root maze is good against a lot of cards. Not only does it slow everything down by one turn, but it also allows fish to have time to react against resolved threats like an oathed creature, mindslaver, etc. Root maze also prevents dragon from going off because they cannot tap anything for mana.


David Ochoa

[Freelancer]

Sword of Fire and Ice usually only comes in when Rods go out...

imo, the only problem with Eternal Witness is Mana Drain. But recursion is so good in Fish that I think it's worth running anyway... at least as a 2x. I usually don't drop it turn 3, I usually don't need to. Please test it just a bit before bashing it...

The lack of removal -
I cut the Suq'Ata Firewalkers from Jorlove's old list (for the Witnesses) because I'm sort of hoping the number of Welders will go down... ie, that the meta will hate out control slaver, but I will definitely add 3 Blue Blast to the sideboard though.

Black Lotus-
Since when did Fish ever run this :S

Factories and Treetops - I'm trying to get away with running a 1GG card as well as a ton of 1U cards, while running a bunch of colorless nonbasics. Can you blame me for cutting a Factory for a Treetop? It's really not that much worse than conclave :S

Ok first off I am not trieing to bash you, flaming and constructive critism is two completely different things. If you don't want to listen than don't post it here.

Witness is strongest with powerfull cards (how obvious) while fish is known for its 'weaker' cards. Its tempo disadvantage, in a normal game I much rather drop more disruption. And on top off that it also has a big tag on its forhead stating DRAIN ME, causing even more tempo disadvantage.

Black lotus might not have been common in older lists, but those where suffering from the disease; 'If it ain't broke don't fix it'. In more recent decklists you will see that black lotus is quite common.

CIPT is a bitch but those lands are needed for standstill. The problem is with you that you are even trieing to mess with your manabase for a card that isn't even that good in fish.

Gilded drake is good against big oath creatures with the exception of pristine angel.

This is just a false statement (unless the opponent is stupid enough to run colossus). What happens against akroma and spirit is this;
1) My opponent oathes out akroma first you steal it and you win (fair enough)
2) My opponent oathes out spirit of the night first and hits you for 6. If you steal spirit you die to akroma next turn, so you wait and the opponent oathes up akroma and hits you for 12 (you die if you used fetch/force w/e). If you survived that, you steal the akroma hit for 6 and pass. Next turn the opponent swings with spirit and gilded drake and you die.

This means that you need: 1) The opponent not boarding in any pro creatures
2) Getting lucky with akroma
3) If you don't get lucky you need to a) Keep your live total at a minimum off 19 live and b) have a flying blocker standing ready to chump.

That seems like quite a lot off conditions for a sideboard slot. So maybe its not that great.

[Webster]

Quote from: Webster
Gilded drake is good against big oath creatures with the exception of pristine angel.

This is just a false statement (unless the opponent is stupid enough to run colossus). What happens against akroma and spirit is this;
1) My opponent oathes out akroma first you steal it and you win (fair enough)
2) My opponent oathes out spirit of the night first and hits you for 6. If you steal spirit you die to akroma next turn, so you wait and the opponent oathes up akroma and hits you for 12 (you die if you used fetch/force w/e). If you survived that, you steal the akroma hit for 6 and pass. Next turn the opponent swings with spirit and gilded drake and you die.

This means that you need: 1) The opponent not boarding in any pro creatures
2) Getting lucky with akroma
3) If you don't get lucky you need to a) Keep your live total at a minimum off 19 live and b) have a flying blocker standing ready to chump.

That seems like quite a lot off conditions for a sideboard slot. So maybe its not that great.

A 50/50 shot is good enough for me. Fish doesnt have much trouble finding a flyer to jump in front of a swaped gilded drake; 4x cloud of faeries, 4x spiketail hatchling gives the fish player a high enough probability of drawing one in time to fit the situation described above.

Gilded drake isn't devoted _solely_ for the oath matchup; it is good against any other decks with fat creatures, which again is a metagame call. Waterfront bouncer and gilded drake will often fill the sideboard slots that maze of ith fill. Whichever one is used is determined on whichever the person piloting fish believes to be stronger. Sometimes, bouncer and drake are better, and sometimes maze is better.


David Ochoa

[Freelancer]

So you are willingly to side in a bunch of gilded drakes in, and you expect to win? Not to mention that you also let him untap wich means about 8 more counters to plow through. Personally I much rather use naturalize to deal with oath directly, and deny them 2 mana in the process (from oath). Your shot in winning is much lower than 50%, if you opponent has bounce your dead if your opponent has a counter for your gilded drake your dead (with naturalize you have a much better chance), if your opponent has time walk your dead or if the opponent sided in a pristine angel. And these aren't situations that happen once in a while. I don't know about you but I hate situational cards, naturalize always works.

Tell me in what other matchup is gilded drake so good without bouncer. 7/10 maybe or ehm reanimate and sometimes against a darksteel colossus. With bouncer the drake only gets marginally better against aggro decks and madness.

I have always hated maze because it doesn't deal with the thread it just slows it down and creates a huge blocker for you. (if it has flying it also shuts down curiosity) Almost every deck that has trouble with maze can deal with it through non-basic hate.

My point is why waste slots on gilded drake? When there are better cards to be found, like naturalize and oxidize.


Side note: I rarely see maze of ith fill more than 3 slots so how are you getting in both drake and bouncer (2-2 they aren't even that great, that's asking for a LOT off luck) with the standard 3-2 configuration without costing it even more sideboard slots?

[Webster]

So you are willingly to side in a bunch of gilded drakes in, and you expect to win? Not to mention that you also let him untap which means about 8 more counters to plow through.

I am talking about _creature-controlling_ elements, not specific archetype sideboard cards. For U/G fish archetypes, there are few _creature-controlling_ elements available. Seasinger, old man of the sea, maze of ith, gilded drake, waterfront bouncer, control magic are some ways for U/G to handle creatures.

Tell me in what other match up is gilded drake so good without bouncer. 7/10 maybe or ehm reanimate and sometimes against a darksteel colossus. With bouncer the drake only gets marginally better against aggro decks and madness.

I have always hated maze because it doesn't deal with the thread it just slows it down and creates a huge blocker for you. (if it has flying it also shuts down curiosity) Almost every deck that has trouble with maze can deal with it through non-basic hate.

Drake/bouncer and maze aren't that good anymore. However, when comparing a bunch of bad cards (maze, bouncer/drake) to a bunch of even worse cards (seasinger, control magic), which would you rather use if said cards apply in more than one match up that the person piloting the deck is worried about?

My point is why waste slots on gilded drake? When there are better cards to be found, like naturalize and oxidize.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts in this thread, the success of a deck in _any_ tournament is to anticipate what everyone else will bring and metagame accordingly. If for some reason, a person decides that fish, even a U/G configuration, is the correct deck choice, knowing what sideboard cards should be included is crucial. Whether those sideboard cards may be some combination of oxidize, naturalize, maze of ith, gilded drake, waterfront bouncer, root maze, ground seal, arcane laboratory, blue elemental blast, etc. is a decision that should be made solely on what is expected to show up in said tournament.

Side note: I rarely see maze of ith fill more than 3 slots so how are you getting in both drake and bouncer (2-2 they aren't even that great, that's asking for a LOT off luck) with the standard 3-2 configuration without costing it even more sideboard slots?

If I were to use drake/bouncer, I would use a 3/2 combination. Anything lower would make the sideboarding strategy too inconsistent to warrent its inclusion in the sideboard. Any higher numbers would eat up too much space in the board.


David Ochoa

[Freelancer]

Okay I can agree with the notion that its a bad sideboard card, but since the owner off this thread choose Ug we don't have much choice. I just got the feeling that you advocated the use off bouncer/drake over other cards, I might have misunderstood though.

Back to the topic at hand:
I really think you need to splash a additional color or drop G all together, it really isnt that great in fish except as a suppport color. But if you are absolutely sure to stick with Ug than the first thing to do is to cut the eternal witness altoghter. After running this deck through MWS I noticed heavy mana problems with witness and your game plan would often roll over and die to a single wasteland. Not to forgot that in the 10 games I played I casted a witness a whopping 3 times regrowing a time walk a force and a recall on turn 5/6 or so. Every other game I had more than enough to do like activating man-lands dropping critters and standstill. The times I did use it though it was great and often game winning, but the game winning aspect happened twice (!) in 10 games. That isn't enough IMHO to use it in fish, espeically since it really needs either recall or walk to be truly effective.