U/W Control - A little help please?

[yankeedave]

Hi All,

I am playing in a few local Vintage tournaments in the next few weeks and would appreciate a little help with the deck I am planning on running - U/W control. I have many of the key cards, it is just the tweaking I need help with.

Maindeck (Note - If it appears that a card, such as Polluted Delta, seems out of place, it is because it is running at as second best)

Land:
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
6 Island
3 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory

Control:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak - Could be Counterspell, but it I have found this better as it can be used in the off colours.
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orims Chant - Absolutely owns storm and other counter decks.
4 Meddling Mages
2 Stifle

Search/Draw:
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Impulse
3 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction

Kill:
4 Exalted Angels

Other:
Mox Pearl
Time Walk

Sideboard:
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Capsize
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
2 Energy Flux
2 Tornod's Crypt
1 Balance
2 Akroma's Vengeance

It is a wide and varied metagame that I am playing in, but I do know I will be facing Meandeck Oath, Welder Slaver, Sligh, MonoU control, and black LD/Control, as well as a lot of ramdom rogueness. This is a mostly unpowered meta and I think I have put together a reasonable deck, with some decent wish targets and thought about my meta, but I am after some opinions on what people think of my choices and any chages they might make.

Thanks in advance.

[warble]

If you intend to win the control matchup, the card you are missing is Decree of Justice.  You might ask, "Why would I play a weaker Exalted Angel engine that also produces weenie 1/1's?  Okay, here's the answer:

You cannot counter Cycled Decree of Justice.

So late in the game, it's kind of like having Boseiju but only for your win condition.  Sounds good, right?  That's why that card made it into type 1.  Instant soldiers that you can't counter.  Exalted Angel mainly functions to maintain game state (the you haven't lost game state) until you get enough mana to pump out an enormous decree.  And, if you're winning the counter war (the other 50% of the time) you actually get to hardcast for some 4/4 Flyers.  It makes Mana Drain seem SO unfair.

So yeah dude, nobody plays 4 Exalted Angels and 0 Decree of Justice.  Tweaking those two numbers is the hardest part of putting Keeper/4cc/3cc together.  You should start figuring out what type of combination works for you here (I play 2 Exalted, 1 Decree) as quickly as possible, because it is highly dependent on your play style (do you play out early?  do you commonly morph an angel on turn 2 and try to protect it for the game, only to see it StP'd on turn 4?)  Figure that out and you'll know what your Keeper/4cc/3cc should look like.

As a note, your strength in a counter war is due not only to how many hard/soft counters you run and your mana acceleration, but also the choice of Mind Twist, Misdirection, Duress, and the ratio of Draw to Fast Mana.  If you tweak those cards as well you really won't be able to get a good feel for your deck.

One other note, your deck really isn't any stronger then 3cc, and you've lost a lot of late bombs and early control cards because you don't run black.  Really, the best way to strengthen your deck is the inclusion of Black in my opinion.

[yankeedave]

Thanks for that Warble.
I have thought about splashing black and am looking to get the Underground Seas to do that asap. Same with the Decrees, as soon as I can get hold of some, I will tweak the deck a bit more. Anyone else got anything for me?
All your help is greatly appreciated!

[the boogie man]

I think that black would make a great choice, as it allows for things like mind twist and duress, and skeletal scrying. I think that the scrying is the best erason to splash, because it is a huge boost in card advantage with only a minimal drawback, especially with the angels.

[Freelancer]

Add brainstorm...NOW!

But seriously brainstorm is great with fetchlands. Before you move on add it.

How good has stifle been for you? Which is its most common use.

You might want to play balance maindeck, its SO good against randomness and it can get you out off tight spots. Also akroma's vengeance is a bit to expensive for vintage. Maybe something like powder keg, engineered explosives or disk if you want mass removal?

[cardiffgiant]

I like the deck. The mana curve seems a little weird, but Mana Drain leads to that. A few questions.

I agree with Freelancer. It seems with the amount of Fetchlands, Brainstorm would be just better.

In SB, why Capsize? I understand with a Drain it could be a two for one. Maybe rushing river instead?

You may want to try Dismantling Blow instead of on Disenchant too.

You probably want one or two bounce maindeck too. Otherwise you are too dependent on Cunning Wish to survive/recover. Maybe replace one StoP with a Chain of Vapor.

One last thought - I think you might have difficulty with Aggro unless you get some decree tokens pronto. Possibly Cursed Totem to stop some of the tricks or something like a cheaper Wrath or Moat (with some mana, Wing Shards can be devastating). Possibly Propaganda or Ghostly Prison or Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale.

These are just tweaks though. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[Freelancer]

Swords to plowshares, drain, decree of justice and wishes backed up by a solid draw engine should be enough to beat regular aggro.


Wait


You have no solid draw engine! You really need this, maybe cutting some counters (mana leak comes to mind) for something like skeletal scrying if you splash black.

[Draven]

Okay, here is my changes to your deck. Note, YOU DON'T NEED UNDERGROUND SEAS

Land
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta (+1)
2 Tundra (-2)
5 Island
3 Plains
3 Swamp (+3)
0 Mishra's Factory (-4)
4 wasteland (+4)
1 Stripmeine (+1)

Control:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak - Could be Counterspell, but it I have found this better as it can be used in the off colours.
3 Swords to Plowshares
0 Orims Chant (-3)
1 Balance (+1)

0 Meddling Mages (-4)
0 Stifle (-2)

Search/Draw:
1 Mystical Tutor
0 Impulse (-3)
3 Skeletal Scrying (+3)
3 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstrom (+4)
1 Demonic Tutor (+1)

Kill/Win
2 Exalted Angels (-2)
1 Decree of Justice (+2)
1 Yawgmoth's Will (+1)

Other:
Mox Pearl
Time Walk

Sideboard:
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Capsize
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
2 Energy Flux
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Coffin Purge (+1)
0 Balance (-1)
0 Akroma's Vengeance (-2)

This is just a quick 3 cc control deck for you. It will be a way more efficient deck. Things like oram's chant and meddiling mages are cute, but they jsut don't win in this kind of deck. Good luck!

[skumle humle]

I personally see u/w control as a denial deck... Not solely on the mana side but also by playing cards that keep the opponent in check, unable to finish you. Just like a real control deck... therefore my u/w list in todays meta would look something like this:
Threats:7
3 exalted angel
3 meddling mage
1 decree of justice
draw+ search:14
4 accumulated knowledge
2 intuition
4 brainstorm
1 mystical tutor
2 cunning wish
1 ancestral recall
denial:11
4 mana drain
4 force of will
3 back to basics
the other stuff:4
1 crucible of worlds
2 swords to plowshares
1 time walk
mana:
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
4 wasteland
1 strip
1 library of alexandria
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
4 islands
2 plains
sb:
1 fact or fiction
1 enlightened tutor
1 disenchant
2 swords to plowshares
1 intuition
1 crucible of worlds
4 energy flux/old man of the sea/ any hoser against the defining deck in your meta
4 chalice of the void

the deck contains 9 mana denial elements, where 4 are global and continous. it can answer anything with those combined with meddling mages and countermagic just like all the aggro control decks out there. Well this deck does have a sorry ass manabase to protect or some weak, slow win conditions that need careful attention. The deck isn't fast but it wont fizzle in your hands and therefore is the save road to go, if your are not all that trained in tight tournament matches...
good luck sport...

[yankeedave]

Thanks to all those who have helped out so far, especially Draven and Skumle, who took the time to present me with full decklists. In about 6 hours I am playing with the version that I originally started out with, but I will be testing the options you have presented me so far. I like the way some of the ideas have led and I will be looking out for more help in the future, so, to use an overused saying, watch this space.

[yankeedave]

So, I managed 3rd yesterday, going 3-1, only losing to a deck that I should have beat, but he kept topdecking answers. The git. Anyway, having seen what does and doesn't work, I am now interested in trying my hand at this deck with a splash of black. I have had to take a lot of the blue and white control out of this deck, but I will see how this performs. Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Land:
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory - This card was awesome, pulled my ass out of a lot of trouble, especially when one guy attacked into 2 with a Phyrexian Negator
7 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Underground River
(The Tundras were on loan, but I will be buying Underground Seas and Tundras as soon as I can afford them.)

Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress
2 SToP
3 Meddling Mages
1 Mind Twist
2 Stifle

Tutors/Search/Draw:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Impulse
3 Brainstorm
1 Fact Or Fiction
3 Cunning Wish
(I haven't got any Skeletal Scrying, otherwise, they would come into the deck.)

Kill:
2 Exalted Angel
(Am looking out for Decrees as we speak)

Other:
1 Mox Pearl
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth
1 SToP
2 Disenchant
1 Stifle
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Capsize
2 Akroma's Vengeance - I choose this over Nev's Disk because, while it may cost 2 more to cast, it takes only one turn to do its job.
2 Energy Flux
2 Tornod's Crypt

I would like to fit Orim's Chant and Mana Leak into the deck because they worked so well for me over the weekend, but I just can't seem to find space for it. I would like to ask everyone for further opinions on the deck and their preference over other versions they have seen so far.

Thanks again for you support.

[Draven]

4 Mishra's Factory - This card was awesome, pulled my ass out of a lot of trouble, especially when one guy attacked into 2 with a Phyrexian Negator

Don't let someone's bad play encourage you to use sub-par cards. Mishras Factory do not really have a place in non-landstill control. A control deck is so on-colored mana intensive, the only colorless mana you can afford is Wastelands, and those tend not to stick around for mana anyhow. I would not reccomend using man-lands.

Congrats on the great finish by the way. I think the black will really add a good element to your deck.

[Mr. Channel-Fireball]

Personally I wouldn't run the black and run Samurai of the Pale Curtain.  You might run Stroke, Impulse, or put Gush in your SB for the Cunning Wishes.  Samurai works against Welder, Oath, and other decks that are popular right now.  I'm working on a deck very similiar to this and our builds are pretty close.  Looks good, keep up the playtesting.

Oh..True Believer in the SB.