TPS vs Control Slaver

[The Exalted]

I'v been playing TPS for a while now and I've got a lot of difficulties to beat Control Slaver. In fact, I faced this deck 5 times and never win but makes top 8 every time    I want to know if there's any way I can beat CS, wich is growing up in popularity ?


Here is my sideboard :

Great against any deck that run 4 Force of Will :
     1 Misdirection (Wish target, I run one maindeck because of all these Force of Wills around...)


Great vs Stax, 5/3 and 7/10
     2 Rebuild (Great against Workshop.dec, I run one maindeck)

Great vs Dragon :
     1 Chain of Vapor (Wish target, Dragon)
     1 Blue Elemental Blast (Dragon, Pyrostatic Pillar, ReB)
     2 Coffin Purge (Dragon and Control Slaver)

Secret tech :
     2 Massacre (Secret tech vs Meddling Mage wich is very played in our meta in Montreal)
     1 Echoing Decay (Wish target for Meddling Mage)

The colossus :
     1 Darksteel Colossus

Wish targets :
     1 Gifts Ungiven (Wish target)
     1 Rushing River (Wish target)
     1 Brainfreeze (Wish Target)
     1 Echoing Truth (Wish target)



Cards I want to remove :

     -1 Rebuild : I feel that two Rebuild after sideboarding is enought if we consider that 3Sphere is now restricted.
     
     -1 Blue Elemental Blast : Chain of Vapor make the same job but is far more versatile.
     
     -2 Coffin Purge : I have enought answers vs Dragon and they're not that great vs Control Slaver.
     
     -1 Echoing Decay : Echoing Truth make the same job but is more versatile.


That gives me 5 sb slots for the Control Slaver match-up, is any body has any suggestions ?



The Exalted

[warble]

TPS absolutely destroys Control Slaver.  Goodness man...

The cards you are missing in your sideboard are:

Defense Grid

and if you really have space in the sideboard after Defense Grid (you shouldn't but...)

Damping Matrix

Both wreck CS, but Defense Grid would be the card of choice because it has 2 casting cost = first turn.  Even if you only milk a FoW with Defense Grid that would be the Force that cost you the game because it countered your Necropotence/Bargain.  Once these two make your sideboard, or even if it's only Defense Grid, you shouldn't have any problem with CS.

One other thing, why don't you have crypts?

[rvs]

Engineered Plague.

[LizardCZ]

even better, Night of Souls' Betrayal

[Demonic Attorney]

What is your main deck list?  It would be a lot easier to make suggestions for MD/SB modifications if I knew what you were already heavy into vs. what you were light on.  From the information you've given so far, I can suggest the following:

First, don't use stuff like Engineered Plague or Coffin Purge or things that get you into hate wars against CS.  If you are going to have any chance of beating Slaver, it will come in the early game by overwhelming them with superior/broken cards.  Things like Engineered Plague, Coffin Purge, or Blue Elemental Blast take you away from this game plan and slow you down, even by just a turn, and force you to invest that time in a hate game plan vs. CS.  This is problematic because the longer the game goes on, the less chance you have of winning.  In the long game, CS will use its draw engine to establish a counterwall strong enough to pin you down until they can pull off a Slaver, and then you lose.  What you should try to do instead is only make use of cards that will make your game plan of comboing off against CS early more resilient and harder for CS's control game to stop.

In this vein, Defense Grid does work well.  If you're running one of those wacky 5c builds of TPS, Xantid Swarm could do the trick, too.  However if you're limited to the conventional color set, Duress has sometimes been very, very strong against CS, slowing it down or removing its control elements and clearing the way for you to go off. 

[jCoKn]

I've had success playing Damping Matrix and Cranial Extractions in the SB, both of which I bring in against CS. They're both slow but cripple them once resolved. I also randomly had 1 Withered Wretch in there last tourney I went to and he was golden for me all day, I'll have to keep testing him (maybe you were at the tourney, in ottawa - I got 2nd).

Repeating what others are saying here already, you have to play fast because over a long game he has the upper hand almost always. Duress I've found to be key in the match as it lets you resolve the 2nd-turn bomb (draw7, bargain, etc) like you're trying to. The problem is if the CS player plays Duress also, because then it slows you down significantly and then they have once again achieved a longer game, and a greater chance of winning, IMO.

I also don't play Wish main, so maybe you have more alternatives than I do. And I like your tech of Massacre, those Mages are hella annoying and the Montreal'ers really push that card like none other.

[rvs]

even better, Night of Souls' Betrayal

I don't see how that is any better....

[crazedpenguinman]

Becasue Nights of SOuls betrayl is a more versitile card in general.

[crazynlazy]

even better, Night of Souls' Betrayal

I don't see how that is any better....

I think (not extremely sure) that night of soul's betrayal is better than engineered plague b/c it get's rid of pentavites and welders which kinda wrecks CS.

[virtual]

I prefer engineered plague myself, but Night of soul's betrayal can work better vs fish (thats why I heard it was chosen) if that's a consideration in your metagame

-Virtual

[[supa_t(im)]]

Night of Soul's betrayal is more of a generic hoser than the more specific engineered plague.  It works well to get rid of orchard tokens if you are playing a creature less deck.  It lowers the p/t of Oath's creatures, which can buy you some time.  It kills welders, pentavites, and lowers the p/t of various artifact beatsticks.  It completely owns fish, and is some good against random aggro.

[rvs]

The whole point is to get it down fast enough for it to matter. The 1 mana more that Night costs makes all the difference in that respect. How does plague not do it's function against Oath in that respect? Also, if you hit Goblin Welder than most likely they won't have time to start using Pentavites, because it's too slow a clock!

All the arguments made here are all wrong. And I know this from experience, not just theory.

[Phele]

But isn't this a hypothetical discussion. I would never board Plague nor Nights against CS. Demonic Attorney has said everything that is needed on this point.

Board extra Counters like Misdirection/REB and more one sided draw like Fact, Deep Analysis, Skeletal against CS. And kick out everything that fills their hand and graveyards too. Same for possilbe Welder targets like Collossus.

You win faster, you just need to draw more cards thant the CS player and to protect your combo better. Plague isn't that good against CS as it is against Oath at all. This semi-controlish route will lead to nothing in this matchup.

I'm a little curious on the CS builds you are facing. Do they all play Duress main? Otherwise i don't understand your problems: CS without Duress has always been one of the better matchups for me. Main you just have to fear eight counters and Platz. And usually thats just not enough to beat TPS. Sure: Mindslaver itself can be kind of annoying with necro out

On Nights/Plague: I'm unsure on this choice. Usually I prefered NIghts because of its better general use and the devasting effect on Fish. But since Fish has started to play more white and Bird Shit seem to be the better denial hate deck, its use is more questionable. And that's the point, where the mentioned higher mana cost counts.

[warble]

The reason TPS has these two cards sideboard:

Defense Grid

Damping Matrix

Is that both of these cards function to effectively "win" against Control Decks, Control Slaver being an excellent example of a control deck.  If you have to pick one to resolve first turn, you pick Defense Grid because on turn 2/3 you "should" be able to win if you can draw/cast unhindered.  It's true that Plague and Damping Matrix function well in the long game, and the reason that you should consider playing Matrix against Control Slaver is simply that: If the game goes the distance you have a few more survival cards as "outs" before CS can go off on you.  With the minimal board control in CS, and the fact that Damping Matrix is effectively un-weldable, Damping Matrix is an excellent sideboard option.  In terms of "pick your evil" you should always go for more Defense Grid then Damping Matrix/Plague in your sideboard unless you specifically know you WILL face Food Chain Goblins, because Plague is a house against that deck and it is very easy with the cards run in TPS to find Plague and drop it on turns 1/2.

Defense Grid functions to effectively shut off Mana Drain and Force of Will, giving it utility in a variety of TPS matches.  In addition, because you can see it as "adding win conditions" against control decks, it is inherently better then adding "not lose conditions" like Damping Matrix/Engineered Plague for a "win-now" deck like TPS.  The main reason to go the Plague route is if you know you are going to see FCG, and for some reason they can out-race you.  How FCG can out-race a good TPS pilot I will never know.  TPS consistently wins on turn 2/3 and FCG is extremely lucky to be finished by turn 3(lackey insanity is always part of the equation).  This argument also shows how bad a matchup it is for CS to face TPS, because for CS to slave by turn 3 without drain mana and facing multiple Duress/Force is almost impossible.  Not that I haven't dropped 10 mana on turn 1 with CS before (it's broken as heyelllll)

[The Exalted]

First of all, thanks for you help !

Defense Grid and Damping Matrix are the two cards I'll playtest this weekend in a LoA tournament.

I think TPS need to win in the first few turns. Yes, this deck is stable but CS is just way more stable than TPS. The optimal non broken senario would be first turn Defense Grid with FoW backup. There is also the fisrt turn Duress, second turn Defense Grid that can be disastrous for a CS player if he do not have the FoW and Drain in his starting hand.

Damping Matrix is a real power house against CS : Is CS have an answer for this card ? Chain of Vapor ? Hardcast Platz ? With TPS, it is easy to cast this card on first or second turn with Dark Ritual and SoLoMoxenCryptVault.

I don't like Cranial Extraction because it has a worst impact then Defense Grid and Damping Matrix vs CS. Also, it's casting cost make this card pratically uncastable until turn 2.

As for Engineered Plague and Night of Souls' Betrayal, I don't think there addition is that important because they are golden against my favorable match-ups. Also, fish is unpopular in Montreal. In my sb, I've got that stupid Colossus for these stupid decks anyway

Here would be my new sb :

2 Rebuild
2 Massacre
4 Defense Grid
2 Damping Matrix
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus



The Exalted

[warble]

Now the question would be, "what 10 cards are you going to take out against cs?"  The reason TPS doesn't get to have 10 sideboard cards against CS is...well...it's hard to take out 10 cards in TPS.  Even siding in your 4 Grid and 2 Matrix will be tough, consider very carefully what you'll take out to put in 4 Grid, 2 Matrix and (optionally) 4 Crypt.  The TPS list really tight and you make it seem like a valley slut . . . what if the CS player puts in Chalice, and what are you going to do about an Arcane Lab?  Are you sacking your bounce?  I'm not personally a TPS pilot so I can't help you here, and since you didn't post your maindeck list in actuality nobody can.

[The Exalted]

My decklist of TPS :

Maindeck (60) :

Permission (9) :
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Duress

Manipulation (7) :
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Broken (12) :
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Spiral
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Memory Jar

Kill (1) :
Tendrils of Agony

Other (3) :
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

Mana (28) :
4 Dark Ritual
10 SoLoMoxenCryptVaultPetal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy


Sideboard (15) :
2 Rebuild
2 Massacre
4 Defense Grid
2 Damping Matrix
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus



Tormod's Crypt are not in my sb for CS. I choose to run them for Dragon and CA.

As for the CS match-up, here how I would side the 6 cards :

+4 Defense Grid
+2 Damping Matrix

-1 Gifts Ungiven (Not very synergistic with Defense Grid)
-1 Time Spiral
-1 Windfall (I'm not sure about this one)
-1 Tinker
-1 Memory Jar (Not synergistic with Damping Matrix)
-1 Chain of Vapor


Chalice of the Void is not really a menace because I've got a md Hurkyl's Recall.

Arcane Laboratory is the menace  I will prey for Duress and FoW to avoid Arcane Laboratories. The 3cc of this card is in my advantage except if it's played with Lotus, Crypt, 2 moxen or drain's mana (wich in that case i'm already dead).



The Exalted

[warble]

Post sideboarding your TPS, you CANNOT scoop to a resolved Arcane Lab.  This is unacceptable, you can't side out chain of vapor, and you especially cannot side out chain of vapor for a damping matrix (even for defense grid would be unacceptable)  The purpose of a sideboard is to make your deck better, not to turn your deck into an auto-scoop engine.  We know the threat of Control Slaver will be Arcane Lab, so just taking care of mana drain and force of will post-sideboard is not enough.

And for the record, racing Arcane Lab against Control Slaver will happen, so maybe good pilots actually CAN race arcane lab...I just happen to be a bad one.  But I pilot CS not TPS so whatever.

[Bakes]

Engineered Plague.

  VERY TRUE!

[Rancor1]

If you're worried about Lab that much, how about bringing in that Colossus? It would be pretty safe behind a Defense Grid. Even if you don't bring it in, you still have Chain of Vapor, which you would play EOT, untap, and win.

[Gaagooch]

I have been playing TPS for quite some time now, and I happen to live in New England the control capital of the magic world.  And I cannot agree with the fact that you want to put Damping Matrix, and Defense Grid in your sideboard.  Those cards are dead cards, I would never side them in.  The slow your deck down, you will sideboard out broken cards to side in defense grid and damping matrix.  I run the u/b version of it right now and the list is to tight, ever card in my maindeck is a potential game winning card, yes even chain of vapor and rebuild.  They both ramp up your storm so tremendously so should someone counter your will you can just rebuild and recast your moxen and sol ring and things of that nature and win.  Every single card in the deck has the potential to win the game.  I do not see how Damping Matrix or Defense Grid give you that chance.  If you are worried about Welders side in Blue Elemental Blasts.  Night of Souls' Betrayal and Enginered Plauge are both decent cards in there own right, but again, not needed.  The goal of this deck is to force your opponent to react, you are playing the more broken deck mostly 100% of the time.  If this deck is played right it can win without a shadow of a doubt.  You just have to use the cards you have in your hands to your advantage, bait your oppnents Force's with spells that they would deem as crucial, but should they resolve will help you anyways.  I was playing the other day at Day Two of The Mana Drain Open VI and I went Mox, Mox, Ritual, Tinker, knowing full well i was going for Memory Jar with two black in pool and an underground untapped.  I also knew that this looked like the crucial spell to counter, but I had a back up plan which happened to be a bit better.  He Forced my Tinker, so then I tapped underground and played Necropotence.  No matter which card resolved I would have won the game, but the ability to have a back up plan in these situations makes the deck that much better.  If you cast Defense Grid then they will counter it, whats your next plan.  And let say you are playing against Gift's Belcher, an amazingly strong deck.  If you cast Defense Grid you understand that you cannot counter their spells either, and they can go broken with very few cards.  Im not saying that i have the absolute best TPS list that there is but my friend playing the same list as me came in second at TMD VI.  Its a solid deck, that can beat anything at anytime.  He wasnt running Tormod's Crypt, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Enginered Plauge or anything of that effect.  You play broken cards in your sideboard, that are mostly wish targets anyways.  After playing the matches and discussing the results we do however believe that a number of changes to the board we ran do need to be made.  Such as Misdirection, that card is amazing in almost every single matchup, people board in Red Elementals against TPS like it is there job, so we board in Misdirection, Blue Elemental, and Skeletal Scrying.  Yes Skeletal Scrying is amazing by the way.  I have been testing out a new board with multiple Misdirections and it seems to be very solid.  There is no reason for Tormod's Crypt in the board as you want to go broken very quickly so slaver should have no chance against you, and Dragon is not a problem ever.  Basically I will give you my current sideboard list which is going to change as I going to start testing u/r/b TPS.

2x Skeltal Scrying
1x Darksteel Colosus
2x Misdirection
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rushing River
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Brain freeze
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Gift's Ungiven
2x Annul

The only card I feel I should explain now is the last one, the Annuls.  Im not lying to you when I say that this card is a house.  One blue to counter an Arcane Lab or Chalice of the Void.  They have served me very well in my sideboard.  That is however the extent of my time to write on this subject I hope that i helped you.

[warble]

With regards to slowing TPS down, I would chime in that TPS is already the "slowest" of the tendrils decks.  If you want to win with TPS, one of the main factors you consider in a tournament is whether you can "go off" in the face of force of will/mana drain.  A lot of times you will delay going off to draw more "outs" so that, on the turn you build up storm count, you have multiple ways to win instead of being cornered into a single win condition (necropotence excepted).  In this light, Defense Grid is about as not-dead as TPS gets.  It's like adding Xantid Swarm to your deck without needing Green mana.  We all know what Xantid Swarm in Dragon does to Control (must counter) and I would argue it's equivalent (Defense Grid) has a similar effect in TPS.  When you say Defense Grid isn't a win condition against Control, I definitely do not agree (Xantid swarm doesn't look like a win condition, but it certainly is against a control deck).  Even in the unlikely event that the control player leaves 5 mana open, that's a single counterspell and TPS normally has no problem going against one solitary counter.

With respect to Damping Matrix, I do agree in principle with putting Annul in your sideboard over Damping Matrix.  The main reason here is that Damping Matrix is simply a card to win the late-game and by that time Control has already built up a 7-card hand again and likely holds multiple counters.  Damping Matrix's strength in the early game against control is pretty good too, but let's elaborate on Annul.  Annul can be used as both early game disruption and a powerful counter against a fat drop or (best use) to counter Arcane Lab.  The fact that you can add a utility card to take care of Arcane Lab which also functions to counter hardcast artifacts seems good.  My friend with the tricked out TPS deck doesn't run it though, so my only reservation is that perhaps bounce(chain of vapor) is actually just as good so why would you use Annul?

I am calling Defense Grid a win condition mainly because with TPS, playing multiple win conditions at the same time is always the way you want to win(or using multiple duress/FoW), and in that instance Defense Grid does function in the same fashion that Duress and Force of Will do(it's like the uber Force).  If you cut your broken cards from TPS for Defense Grid, that's probably a bad choice of cards to sideboard.

[Gaagooch]

The problem with playing the Damping Matrix is that it also does not allow you to cast spells on their turn.  End of turn Gift's Ungiven are the hotness, as are Brainstorms, Mystical, and Vampiric Tutors.  Sometimes an arcane lab does get through so you have to play end of turn chain of vapor to bounce it.  I do not like paying 4 for chain of vapor.  I have learned some things about TPS in another forum that i had previously started and it makes perfect sense.  TPS is a control deck for the first few turns of a game, they play the control part until they can become combo and win in one turn.  Its a very simple idea that you stop them, then win all at once.  Duress is a house, Force of Will is amazing, and after sideboarding Annul is simply amazing, as it is as unexpected as anything and cost's one.  Why wait to chain the arcane lab and allow them to build up cards in their hands (possibly counters or draw spells) when you can simply counter it for one mana.  Defense Grid slows control decks down in the early game well, i can agree with you on that, but TPS is a control deck until the third turn.  You rip your opponents hand apart, counter their main threats, and set up for your win all with relative ease.  Sideboarding in Defense Grids slows your opponent down, but slows you down too, and i prefer to play TPS that can win Third or fourth turn as opposed to sixth or seventh.  You need to board in must counters and more threats.  Defense Grid isn't a threat, it says to your opponent, I just gave you a time walk in which i cannot counter anything unless i have a black lotus on board, and a force and blue card in my hand.  Where if you board in annul even against decks that run Arcane Labs you can play an underground or a basic island and annul their lab, annul is amazing.  Annul can also help you play mana denial as you can counter black lotus for one mana.  Now you may say that that is not worth it, but i cannot lie to you it has won me more games than you know.  And Chalice of the Void is getting bigger and bigger and Chalice on zero even slow you down, so annul is a very good card to have.  It adds more counters to your early game, so you can out-control the true control decks.  The only thing i would change in that current sideboard i had listed is that we have been testing out daze in the deck to see how effective it is, and daze believe it or not is a very good card as a one of wish target.  I'm not saying its needed in the sideboard at all but its another option that we have.  I am just speaking from playing the deck and testing it, and i absolutely think that tendrills combo is amazing, and that TPS is amazing.  With almost that verbatim sideboard my friend did come in second at The Mana Drain Open VI after a third place finish at The Mana Drain Open V.  So i think i have some validity behind my reasoning of sideboard.  Not saying that anyone of you are wrong by any means.  I'm just telling you what we have tested and what we have come out with is tried and true, and if very effective.  I can go down every card in the sideboard and tell you how helpful and how amazing they can be.  But that is my personal oppinion not to be mistaken for definite fact.  But i do truly believe that adding Damping Matrix, Defense Grid, and even Night of Soul's Betrayal could be wasting sideboard slots in you deck for a match up that you should already win hands down.

[warble]

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Coffin Purge
1 Rushing River
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stifle
1 Misdirection
1 Hydroblast
1 Daze

Both the cards I mentioned (damping matrix and defense grid) are apparently too slow for TPS, from the 2nd place Waterbury Report I would suggest just putting in bounce and additional early disruption.   Also, I TOLD you TPS destroys CS.  It's like they play the same deck except TPS has like 10 more broken things to play.  Just...wrong...  Even the sideboard is more broken!

[rvs]

@Broken_Dreams: Paragraph breaks are tech! :<

[The Exalted]

Well, thanks for your time !

Last Saturday , I played this decklist of TPS in a LoA tournament in Montreal (31 players...) and I win the tourney with no match loss 

Maindeck (60x) :

Permission (9x) :
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Duress

Manipulation (7x) :
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Broken (12x) :
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Time Spiral
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Necropotance
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Memory Jar

Kill (1x) :
1 Tendrils of Agony

Other (3x) :
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Chain of Vapor

Mana (28x) :
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy


Sideboard (15x) :
2 Rebuild
2 Massacre
4 Defense Grid
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Damping Matrix
1 Darksteel Colossus


I cut the lone Cunning Wish for a Gifts Ungiven. Yheah, Extract and Rootwater Thief for Tendrils of Agony kills me in game 1, but who the f*** is playing those cards ? When I was playing that Cunning Wish, it was always a bad news to draw it (eot Cunning Wish is ok, but eot Gifts Ungiven is pretty). I know, my deck scoops to some crazy situations that never happens...Also, nobody knows exactly what I play and always have in mind that I have that lone Cunning Wish or another way to win .


1. Doomsday : 1-1
2. WUR-Landstill : 2-1
3. WU-Aggro (UT Fish ?) : 2-1
4. Bomberman (WU-Auriok Salvager) : 1-1
5. Control Slaver : 2-0
T8 : WUR-Landstill : 2-1
T4 : FCG : 2-1
Final : Bomberman : 50/50 split


Defense Grid is a great card. Because of the rarity of broken hands, Defense Grid helps a lot in the control match-up. Here how I side those Grids :

-1 Time Walk
-1 Timespiral
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Chain of Vapor (no Arcane Labs in Montreal...  :lol: )

+4 Defense Grid


As for the Damping Matrix, I found them pretty useless because they puts me in a controlish situation and I should cut broken cards to side them in.

Finaly, I don't face any Dragon or CA (5 players were playing those decks), so the Tormod's Crypts were unuselful. For the moment, I'm far from sure that Dragon is an easy match-up for TPS.

Annul is a great card and surely replace the two Damping Matrix. Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar are very annoying. Also, I'm pretty sure that Arcane Laboratories will be played in the next tournaments.


Again, thanks for your help !

[Gaagooch]

Yeah sorry to RVS and everyone else in here.  For some reason i forgot that i actually passed school and decided i did not know how to write.  I promise my next posts will have paragraph breaks, and be more gramatically correct.