[Report] 4/30/5 WU TANG Fish Wins Waterbury VI

[Nomad]

To address questions (not necessarily in order):

13) Nomad aka Simon

I was just really worried that you were playing the standard type 2 version with Enforcers and Frogmites. If you were, I would've been alot more worried because even if null rod is on the table, you can still summon those guys. I felt very outplayed game 1 because I played an island, while you proceded to drop your hand. Fortunately I had stifle to stop your skullclamp that turn. The decks that play Null Rod tend to be aggro, and if that poses a threat then Myr Enforcers can come in and trample them to the dust.

I do play Enforcers, but only 2 in the current build.  If I thought through my sideboard better, I guess I'd have another 2.  Frogmites just didn't want to come and play, although I think one did, but traded with a mage or ninja.

Judging by what else I recall drawing that game, the stifle didn't matter either...

[Astro]

Congrats man!  This one of the few net-decks I would actually consider playing without wanting change a single card outside of your fourth Ninja.  Nice one, I dig your rogue style.

And yes I agree.  Its ridiculous that you have to win two Waterbury tournaments to even be considered for a full membership or to gain respect on your rogue ideas.  Keep it cool bro, I can't think of a more deserving player to win two straight.

[Nantuko Rice]

3 Ninja and 1 Time Walk

Was something I definately considered but just decided on not running the Time Walk. Partially because of the proxy limit, and partially because I didn't have time to think about it more.

For anyone (more specifically, my round 8 opponent Jason) who wants to know. My proxies were:

4 Meddling Mage (black and white copies of the real card, updated border, Z Edition)
1 Flying Man (black and white copy of the real card, updated border, Z Edition)
1 Ancestral Recall (color copy of the real card, updated border, Z Edition)
1 Mox Pearl (color copy of the real card, updated border, Z Edition)
3 Orim's Chant (Written on Auriok Transfixer)

I borrowed:
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Flying Men

So therefore my only questionable proxies were the Orim's Chant. I don't even know what exactly went on, but if you have a problem you should come talk to me about it. I don't want this to turn into someone's public humiliation or a flame thread, so PM me.

Astro: Thanks.

[Ripcord728]

Okay, I play a similar deck to yours and while I don't want to argue on specific card choices (I can't imagine how you handle the Oath matchup) I want to know how you do against random aggro.  I see a lot of little kids playing stupid stuff like Sligh in my meta, and while they never top 8, they make it difficult for me to make it into a top 8 with an Aggro-Control deck.  How do you deal with that kind of stuff?

Keep in mind that Sligh is an unwinnable matchup for U/W Aggro-Control.

[xrobx]

First off, congrats on your second waterbury win!! Thats pretty amazing...

I wanted to run 6 swords (3 main/3 side), but I settled for 4 swords and 2 bounce.

I'm kinda lost here, as I don't see what you mean by running 6 swords...?  Cunning wish?  Sword of Fire/ice??  Bounce makes more sense to me (echoeing truth), and like you said chain of vapor doesn't really fit your deck all that well

Okay, I play a similar deck to yours and while I don't want to argue on specific card choices (I can't imagine how you handle the Oath matchup) I want to know how you do against random aggro.  I see a lot of little kids playing stupid stuff like Sligh in my meta, and while they never top 8, they make it difficult for me to make it into a top 8 with an Aggro-Control deck.  How do you deal with that kind of stuff?
Keep in mind that Sligh is an unwinnable matchup for U/W Aggro-Control.

I won't go into details on why sligh is not an unwinnable match, or why it isn't really even viable in a tournament like waterbury, but I will point out something to do with similarities.

As for similarities, you deck highly resembles Lam's deck, Birdshit.  The subtle differences are you run javelineers for welders, ninjas for card advantage, and flying men for synergy with ninja.  Also, you devote part of your manabase to creatures, as it shows good synergy with ninja.  Looks sick   My question is, looking strictly in comparison, which deck shows a difference that counts.  By this, I'm asking what cards that are different from Birdshit make the difference and why, which will essentially show why this type deck can do so well (note; your experience and skills are clearly important here, and again, it basically is fish - knowing when to daze/stifle can be very important).

Pros vs BS :
-The javelineers are welder killers
-Synergistic and stylin for sure
-super ophidian, disquised as a ninja
-standstill draw engine
-2 color manabase

Cons vs BS :
-much slower clock
-creatures can be removed/destroyed easier
-your men can't stand up to bigger men

All and all, the deck seems very well built and you did a great job taking it so far   It seems to be a good choice nowadays to take this style of deck to major events, as it's not expected, and mages are very strong.  Also, the lack of aggro makes the 'bigger men kill you' assumption false.  Sick deck man, way to go!!

[Joblin Velder]

I won't go into details on why sligh is not an unwinnable match, or why it isn't really even viable in a tournament like waterbury, but I will point out something to do with similarities.

Master Tap took it to top 16.

[Nantuko Rice]

Ripcord:

Swords to Plowshares will handle Akroma and Colossus. The only problematic creatures are Iridescent Angel and Pristine Angel. The only option against them is to swarm your opponent with more creatures but even that isn't quit effective. Oath with ProColor Angels is a very hard matchup to win. I'm lucky I didn't face any (The oath deck I played in finals was Oath Salvagers).

Sligh isn't as hard as you think it is. If you see alot of sligh in your area, then you can SB 4 BEB's. Meddling Mage will be targetted by alot of removal, but thats where your counters come in. Most of the one drops in WU Tang Fish can trade with any sligh creature or burn spell. Javelineers can take care of two sligh creatures.

xrobx:

The "I wanted to play 6 swords to plowshares"... was a joke. lol.

You've already went over most of the pros and cons already so i won't reiterate. I chose WU TANG Fish over Bird $hit because of the stabler manabase, rogueness, and mostly because of "-Synergistic and stylin for sure." On a more serious note, I really wanted to take a deck that seemed fun to play with and test the usefulness of Javelineer. Of course I failed because I rarely got to use my javelin counters. Didn't see many welders or other aggro-control decks.

In any case, I might play this next time, or show up with something new, rogue, and different. See you guys at the next Waterbury.

[Ripcord728]

"The only problematic creatures are Iridescent Angel and Pristine Angel. The only option against them is to swarm your opponent with more creatures but even that isn't quit effective."

No, there's actually a much better option, and it's called enchantment kill.  And Icatian Javelineer is nothing compared to Fanatic or Lavamancer.  Swords to Plowshares sucks versus Lightning Bolt (in this particular matchup) and Stifle/Null Rod/Ninja/Meddling Mage are AWFUL against Aggro.  Running 4 Blue Elemental Blast in the board would help the matchup (though it would still be unfavorable) at the cost of the combo matchup or whatever you take out to make room for them.

[MrZuccinniHead]

"The only problematic creatures are Iridescent Angel and Pristine Angel. The only option against them is to swarm your opponent with more creatures but even that isn't quit effective."

No, there's actually a much better option, and it's called enchantment kill.  And Icatian Javelineer is nothing compared to Fanatic or Lavamancer.  Swords to Plowshares sucks versus Lightning Bolt (in this particular matchup) and Stifle/Null Rod/Ninja/Meddling Mage are AWFUL against Aggro.  Running 4 Blue Elemental Blast in the board would help the matchup (though it would still be unfavorable) at the cost of the combo matchup or whatever you take out to make room for them.

Enchantment kill?  I assume you are talking about MD seal of cleansing.  Why MD something to make your deck better against one deck and bad against many others.  Also, Waterbury = Welderbury.  Javelineers is assumed better for the meta from precendent.

[Ripcord728]

I'm talking about the Sligh matchup, but thanks for reading the entire post.

P.S. I maindeck a Savannah and Tropical Island and run 4 Ray of Revelations in the sideboard.  Oath beats me about one in every sixteen matchups.

[xrobx]

Dude, calm down

You are clearly not making any sense, as stated by yourself:

Running 4 Blue Elemental Blast in the board would help the matchup (though it would still be unfavorable) at the cost of the combo matchup or whatever you take out to make room for them.

Uhh...side board means the thing you use in between games...if he was specifically siding in anti-red cards, why the hell would you even mention that this makes his combo game worse?  It's completely irrelevant.

* YOUR RESPONSE TO ZUCCINIHEADS POST *
I'm talking about the Sligh matchup, but thanks for reading the entire post.

P.S. I maindeck a Savannah and Tropical Island and run 4 Ray of Revelations in the sideboard.  Oath beats me about one in every sixteen matchups.

I'm quite sure he did manage to read the entire post, and again, if you're talking about the sligh matchup, why are you mentioning his combo matchup gets worse when he sides in game 2 vs sligh?  I don't know if you realize, but you sideboard in and out between matches.  This means that yes, you must restore your deck before you continue on to the next match, hence, your combo match would not be affected by a round one match vs sligh.  Is there something I'm missing here...? 

P.S.  WU TANG Fish rules.

[Freelancer]

hence, your combo match would not be affected by a round one match vs sligh.  Is there something I'm missing here...? 

+4x BEB and -4x 'something' will weaken your post board matchup against other decks.

P.S.  WU TANG Fish rules.

Quoted for truthness.

On a more serious note, I really wanted to take a deck that seemed fun to play with and test the usefulness of Javelineer. Of course I failed because I rarely got to use my javelin counters. Didn't see many welders or other aggro-control decks.

I tested it for a while in Wu weenie and was really pleased, it often slips under counter walls and takes some off the pressure off swords to plowshares. (ie. less targets to worry about)


On swords and bounce VS. oath:

Bad, they literally suck for more than one reason:
1) You need at least 2 off them to deal with there creatures, and one is enough to beat you.
2) They are lousy against pro creatures
3) They allow the oath player to untap

The best way to stall oath, is to kill oath of druids. A combination off seal of cleansing, lots off pitch counters and maybe some other form off enchantment hate should be enough to deal with them. Occasionally they will get the first turn orchard-oath, but for every one off those games you have a force or a first turn mage (on the play).


Edit: My entire message seems to be quoted, fixed.

[MrZuccinniHead]

"The only problematic creatures are Iridescent Angel and Pristine Angel. The only option against them is to swarm your opponent with more creatures but even that isn't quit effective."

No, there's actually a much better option, and it's called enchantment kill.  And Icatian Javelineer is nothing compared to Fanatic or Lavamancer.  Swords to Plowshares sucks versus Lightning Bolt (in this particular matchup) and Stifle/Null Rod/Ninja/Meddling Mage are AWFUL against Aggro.  Running 4 Blue Elemental Blast in the board would help the matchup (though it would still be unfavorable) at the cost of the combo matchup or whatever you take out to make room for them.

I did read the post and I was definitely correct that when you talk about oath you mean MDing enchantment hate.  I'm ignoring the sligh part of the post because oath is a hard match-up but sligh is not.

[Ripcord728]

The fact that you think Sligh is not a hard matchup shows me that you have never playtested against it.

And I never said to add enchantment removal maindeck.  I said that I run 4 Ray of Revelation in the sideboard and it makes Oath into a cakewalk.  Please read before posting, please.

[mongrel12]

@Ripcord: This deck has just won Waterbury. Chill out. At the point when sligh becomes a tier 1 deck im sure we will playtest the matchup religiously--as of now sligh is too rogue for there to be a point (tell me how many top 8s you have seen involving sligh).

Aura Fracture is really cool tech against Oath, especially with the 2 Mox+Lotus, as once it resolves, it's essentially game. I find myself boarding out the Javelineer a whole lot (in almost every non welder matchup)--how does your SB plan work with the deck. Orim's Chant has proven absolutely golden against storm combo. Major props for the awesome deck.

[Ripcord728]

Unbelievable.  UNBELIEVABLE!

Read my original post.

"I see a lot of little kids playing stupid stuff like Sligh in my meta, and while they never top 8, they make it difficult for me to make it into a top 8 with an Aggro-Control deck.  How do you deal with that kind of stuff?"

I came with a genuine question of what to do against random Aggro decks like Sligh, and the answers I got were "Derf!  Sligh doesn't Top 8!"  and "U/W Fish beats Sligh - Null Rod and Stifle are sooo awesome!"

Goodbye, this thread.

[Nantuko Rice]

Ripcord, you might as well be playing Bird $hit if you're adding the green... I went with Javelineers because the control deck of choice at Waterbury has usually been Control Slaver (but I think that's changing...).

Kami of Anient Law is also a possible candidate if Oath is heavy in your meta.

Also, you guys are misinterpretting what he's saying about the sideboarding.

Alot of my anti-combo cards are in my sideboard, and if I cut cards to make room for 4 BEB's, I will make my sligh matchup better BUT lose on my combo matchup.

In any case, Sligh is not a hard matchup to play IMO (though I haven't dont testing) and therefore, 4 BEB's are unnecessary in the sideboard in the first place, not to mention the lack of sligh in most metagames. And if there is alot of sligh in your meta, then there isn't alot of combo (based on the fact that you can't have 2 decks being THE MOST popular in an area unless it's 50/50... I wouldn't consider anything under 50 % of a playing field a dominant archetype in the area).

I would agree that 4 SB Ray of Revelation makes the matchup against oath VERY easy but just as we discussed earlier... if you add 4 BEB to your SB to improve your sligh matchup, you hurt your other matchups. Well, by adding 4 Ray to your SB, you improve your oath matchup, but you hurt your other matchups.

The sideboard is about YOUR metagame so stop arguing about what's best in the sideboard. The maindeck has one job, and that was to play like normal fish but "slightly different/improved (whatever)." The sideboard can change based on whatever is in your area so stop talking about poor matchups. We already know what Fish's poor matchups are.

[Rico Suave]

The best thing a Fish player can do against sligh is understand how the match-up plays out, exploit tempo, and play smart.  If these things are done, then sligh has a difficult time winning.  In fact, the best strategy against sligh is understanding why you should beat it and putting yourself into situations that promote the use of these understandings.

If you want help beating sligh, go read an article on tempo and apply it to your games.

If you want SB tech, use BEB and use it well.  

Granted these U/W versions are weaker against sligh than something using Grim Lavamancer or River Boa, but Javelins trade 2:1 and Ninjas give you way more threats than they can kill.  Card drawing is why Fish can run "dead" cards like Null Rod and still come out on top against decks that ignore that card.

[xrobx]

Unbelievable.  UNBELIEVABLE!

Read my original post.

"I see a lot of little kids playing stupid stuff like Sligh in my meta, and while they never top 8, they make it difficult for me to make it into a top 8 with an Aggro-Control deck.  How do you deal with that kind of stuff?"

I came with a genuine question of what to do against random Aggro decks like Sligh, and the answers I got were "Derf!  Sligh doesn't Top 8!"  and "U/W Fish beats Sligh - Null Rod and Stifle are sooo awesome!"

Goodbye, this thread.

You came here with an irrelevant question, and then went off on a tangent about how sligh is all powerful and mighty, and definatly deserves a sb slot.  Maybe so in your meta.  In waterbury, no.  If I were playing this deck, and I knew that the meta was going to be scrubby like yours, I'd probably run COP: red and laugh in your face when you scoop to it Red has no enchantment removal, and let's face it, scrubs with sligh cannot play against COP: red.

I'm glad you're gone.

[Zeylon]

Congrats Rice. You built a great deck there. I would love to hear your thoughts on my modifications to it...

When I tested the deck, I realized that the Flying Men were incredible but the Javenileers hardly came in handy. If you read Rice's report, he'll mention that the only time he used Javinlenner's ability was once the whole tourney, to sac itself to preven an oath activation. I always found myself wishing the Javenlener's were flying men so I swapped them out.

I considered Suntail Hawk over Cloud Sprite, but the basic islands means that I have better chance of being able to play it turn 1. Plus, late game when it's not as useful, it can pitched to FoW.

8 turn 1 flyers suggested that Curiosity would work well, and testing proved that to be very true. Since I only thought the stifles were useful less than half of the times that I drew them, I swapped them out for Curiosity.

WuTang Redux

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cloud Sprite - Javenleers, Mother of Runes, and Weathered Wayfarer are all great utility creatures that work great in this slot, based on your meta. So I recommend trying out all 4 here and seeing which works best in your meta. Mother's Advantages - Protects your curious flyers, your meddling mage lock, makes sure your ninjas can't be blocked - thus drawing you cards, and can ensure that your curiosu flyers and such can get past Akorma's and Exalted Angels so you can try and draw into a Swords. Wayfarer - Lets you draw into all 5 wastelands each game to really screw over your opponent's manabase. Javenleers - Great antiwelder and antifish tech. But that's about it. Cloud Sprite - Can be pitched to FoW late game unlike Suntail Hawk. Also more likely to have access to blue mana turn 1 than to white mana.
4 Meddling Mage
4 Flying Men
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Curiosity
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Island

SB:
1 Null Rod
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seasinger
2 Orim's Chant
2 Arcane Lab
2 Energy Flux
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Stifle (If I was running Weather Wayfarer, I would swap these for something else).

[Disburden]

Don't you still think four ninjas maindecked means too many opening hands with more than one ninja. I really don't like getting two ninjas in an opening hand unless there's a rare lotus in hand as well. What do you think about making it a 3 count of ninjas?

[Nantuko Rice]

I read the topic in SCG too and heard your ideas there.

I really like the idea of Wayfarer. And if your opponent doesn't want to play more land against you, that's not a bad scenario either since most decks need their mana to go off while Fish can do fine with tiny amounts of land.

As for Mother of Runes... I was toying around with "Mommy and her Big Boys"... basically EBA (Negators &Tinker-Colossus) with Mother of Runes and testing it out in Fish but then a social life hit me again so I'm "retiring" from Magic until the next major event again where I will come out with a completely random deck again. 

You're assumptions about the creature choices are all very correct. Javelineer should be dropped unless in a heavy aggro environment, and even then Mother can still be good.

Personally, I really feel that a black lotus is good for the deck (turn one ninja hasn't lost me a game yet). A fourth factory is definately needed so you have a better chance at early standstill lock. I also noticed you upped the fetchland count. I admit that I personally feel the deck was slightly light on mana myself and occasionaly had mana issues.

WuTang Redux is an overall better built version of the deck than what I originally had. I had the stifles, misdirections, sideboard, and maindeck built geared towards a heavy combo and creature (oath, welder, fish, birdshit) environment. You're maindeck is better going into an unknown environment (But i still think a 4th factory and addition of lotus would be good). I'm sure your version draws ALOT of cards...

Summary:

You have a better maindeck going into an unknown metagame. Mine was built for something specific in mind.

-1 ninja
-1 fetch
+1 lotus
+1 factory
*Toy around with cloud sprite slot

[Zeylon]

Cutting the 4th Ninja is probably a good idea.

I'm not sure about cutting a fetch for a factory though. A nonnegligable % of the games I played found me drawing no colored mana sources even after the mulligan. It stings mulliganing to 5 (where the chances of being mana (or creature) screwed are even higher) in a tempo deck. The 4th factory seems like overkill. It's not as vital since Ninja is even better than factory under a standstill and this deck plays so many more one drops than most fish decks so standstilling 2nd turn is a piece of cake. In fact, I can't really recall having a standstill and not having a use for it. This deck has more ways to break standstill than most previous version of fish even with 3 factories.

I did swap out a fetchland for a black lotus though.

In addition, Weathered Wayfarer is great for fetching factories whenever you need them or when you're under a standstill.

Even with 8 1 drops, I still sometimes feel like I need more (to truly abuse both Ninja and Standstill). That's what I'm doing with the 4th Ninja Slot.

I am now trying (Javenleers are not useful too often to justify running maindeck, the same reason I cut stifle)...

2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Cloud Sprite
1 Mother of Runes

Hoping the Wayfarers more than easily compensate for the cut factory.

[Razvan]

Hi Jason,
Great job on winning this thing. You are one truly amazing player, and it was an honor to have played you at the last one.
That being said, I can't believe another deck with Null Rods wins the top spot. *sigh*
Also, I think that the Javelineer is a great choice in the deck because it does so much against so many decks, especially since Goblin Welder will always be around. Don't replace it, especially not with mother of runes, since it has pretty good synergy with the Ninja.
Either way, hope to see you again at the next one.
-Razvan