[Discussion] Blue Fork -- will it see play?

[Negator13]

Seems like another Disrupting Shoal to me... an overhyped blue instant that will turn out to be just a conditional, more expensive Misdirection most of the time.

[leviat]

Come on guys. In almost all these situations, is fork really any better than a Mana Drain or even a Counterspell in hand?

Sure, you can copy your opponents Ancestral or YawgWiN. Heck, you might even copy a Tinker (without having to sacrifice, so hot). But other than those rare occurences, what else will you gain?

It a fun card and I hope it does see some play, but in general, I think people are way over hyping this.

If you copy a tutor, you'll most likely go for a counter anyways to hit your opponents. Since most of the (good) utility spells are designed to be used at the end of your opponents turn, it's just not that great. I think it's best use will most likely be in Mono-U as Counterspell 9-12...

[Dozer]

I see this card creating its own archetype. I'm thinking a ultra-reactive 10-12 counterspell deck designed specifically to abuse the fuck out of the card and force other players to play around it.

Put it on a Scepter. I know that Scepter has lately fallen out of favor, but Twincast makes the prospect sound extremely nice. I have no build for it, and I do in fact agree that it will be difficult to find the room in a control decklist, but not trying it would be stupid. Twincast onna stick is plain sick. (Yay for random rhymes, even if the grammar suffers whines!)

The versatility of the thing in a control deck is amazing. Remember the time when Mis-Ds ran rampant (like, in the early days of Fish and before in the short period when it was popular in Keeper)? Everybody was playing more cautious than actually necessary, just in fear of a timely Misdirection. Twincast is worse, since it can not only randomly throw your (opponents) gameplan totally off balance, but also has better double utility as a counterspell than Mis-D.

As for the point of Twincast being worse than an additional bombastical spell of your own, I don't see such a big problem with that as others in this thread. You will certainly not substitute Twincast for any counterspell, and also not for a bomb/tutor among the lines of Will. The slots to open (if maindecked at all, which is another question) will be the ones of secondary support spells, e.g. removal, excess Tutors (MD Vampiric, anyone?) and maybe even Duress. Most players will not give up Duress, and rightly so, but I can certainly imagine Twincast as the better option in a control mirror at times.

A 2/2 maindeck split of Duress and Twincast is the first thing I am going to try out (with the possible option of boarding up to 4 Duress or 3-4 Twincast depending on the match-up, although extra Twins in the SB may be questionable). Twincast also need not be dead in the aggro match-up, since it can in a pinch work as extra removal. If you look at Twincast as "UU, target spell gets storm 1", it is not necessarily dead. Sure, you could run "real" removal instead, as well as a "real" counterspell. But this is where Twincasts versatility comes in as extremely handy, since you will have both when you need it. (I very much hope this does not sound too much like Dromar's Charm... )

Also, Twincast circumvents Boseiju. This might prove a very valuable commodity. If you Twincast a Boseiju'd Tinker or Will, you prevent your opponent from getting too far ahead by maintaining symmetry. A counterspell is useless in that situation, a difference which will - given the increasing popularity of Boseiju - matter.

If this is enough to push reactive, removal-oriented control decks back to a reasonable level is doubtful. Yet discarding the possibility means shooting too fast. I for one am looking forward to Twincast a Cranial Extraction, which is probably overkill but extremely cool, since the card is named on resolution, making your Xerox-Extraction even more dangerous.

Dozer

[empathogen]

Also, Twincast circumvents Boseiju. This might prove a very valuable commodity. If you Twincast a Boseiju'd Tinker or Will, you prevent your opponent from getting too far ahead by maintaining symmetry. A counterspell is useless in that situation, a difference which will - given the increasing popularity of Boseiju - matter.

Good point Hanno, but will forking a Tinker/Will during their turn actually make a difference? If you fork Will, you lose the ability to play sorceries/permanents...at best you get another A.Call (if you're lucky) and maybe a couple of counterspells to stop their Will from going broken. If you fork tinker, what are you gonna go for, Isochron Scepter? I'd hesitate to say it actually 'circumvents' Boseiju, since they get the effect they want from it - forcing through their spell. Also, playing Mis-D on an A.Call nets you 3 cards while denying them 3, whereas Twincast gives you both the effect.

Personally i think you Keeper players have better things to spend UU on. Come back to Melbourne, i look forward to Manadraining your Cranial, having your Twincast fizzle for lack of target, then spending the 4 on a Slaver activation!

[Dozer]

[...] will forking a Tinker/Will during their turn actually make a difference? If you fork Will, you lose the ability to play sorceries/permanents...at best you get another A.Call (if you're lucky) and maybe a couple of counterspells to stop their Will from going broken. If you fork tinker, what are you gonna go for, Isochron Scepter?

I think it will make a difference. You don't "lose the ability to play sorceries/permanents", because you never had it beforehand (it's still your opponents turn). You gain access to a spent ressource. Of course, if there is nothing juicy in your own graveyard (unikely), spending a Twincast there does not make much sense. But it could already be worth it for a single Brainstorm and a Drain. Since your copy of Will resolves before theirs does, you can Drain the Boseiju'd Will from your graveyard just for the mana boost in your next turn. That is better than nothing.
Oh, and Tinker should always be able to get something better than just a Scepter. DSC is always solid, especially for UU instead of 2U.

Come back to Melbourne, i look forward to Manadraining your Cranial, having your Twincast fizzle for lack of target, then spending the 4 on a Slaver activation!

Well, you've got to know when to use Twincast safely... I for one do not want to run into your Slavers. If your opponent looks as if he has the counter, you will have to pass priority after the Cranial. If he passes, you resolve Cranial - good. If he counters, you either copy his Drain (targetting his Drain) to get the mana yourself, or just Twincast the Cranial in case the counter is not a Drain.

Basically, with Twincast, you double the amount of broken instants and sorceries in your deck, as you can be sure that every opposing deck has something to Twincast with glee. But then again, Twincast may just end up in the same alley as Stifle: versatile, surprising, but narrow. I don't think so, but the possibility exists, of course.

Dozer

/edit: fixed quotations

[leviat]

I think you guys are missing an important point. If you are going to TwinCast your opponent's YawgWiN, then chances are you could also have countered it since you have control of the game at that point anyways and your opponent will still lose. To me, TwinCast is just a win more card. How many cards really exist where's it worth TwinCasting rather than countering or misdirecting? YawgWiN and Tinker... Skeletal Scrying maybe... anything else? This card is really situational and will not likely pull you out of a losing situation.

[warble]

My 2 cents:

Same problem as isochron scepter (and the same dumb ol' casting cost too)

For 2 mana you should do something broken, especially if it's 2 colored mana.  There are too many "free" cards for blue to play that get cut because of deck limitations to even consider a non-answer non-permission non-threat in a blue deck.

And even if there's some wonderful fork target (which there isn't because fork doesn't copy storm) you prefer a tutor or permission to running fork.

Honestly if you have 2 blue and have to react to a spell, hard counters are the way to go.  I did fork a tendrils for 40 with a TPS player at 1 life once, though, so fork/twincast is and will always be one of the coolest cards in magic.

[ogoy]

The bluefork may find a slot in my CS deck as the 61st card, only because I want to see how it plays out, other than that, I dont see any real use for multiple copies... YET.

I agree, its situational. The same way, Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel depend on what's on the board, just as Twincast depends on what you or your opponent is holding...

[rozetta]

I believe this card has a lot of potential:

1) Considering the fact that a large percentage of today's decks are control or at least drain-based, this serves a purpose as at least a counterspell.

2) I consider the mental effect of this card to be something that it has going for it in a huge way - in a similar way that Misdirection had a few years ago. The threat of Twincast could be enough to offbalance players into an overly cautious mode, for one. Remember that this has a huge amount more targets than something like Misdirection, as well.

3) Consider also that even decks like Stax, which have a relatively low number of instants and sorceries, still cast an appreciable number of fork-worthy spells over the course of a game. Remember that against decks which don't have many targets (like FCG), you can always duplicate your own spells.

4) The arguement that the room Twincast takes up would be better served with more draw spells seems a tad unfounded considering that you would use those additional draw spells to draw into more counters or card draw - this doubles as both against most of today's decks anyway. If you really think about it, Twincast is a spell of noteably higher quality than a good deal of commonly used card draw spells in use today.

5) The effect of doubling something like your own Demonic Tutor, Ancestral Recall or Time Walk is extremely game-swinging on most occasions (as it was back when Fork was unrestricted and used in decks). This is not just a win-more scenario given the points made above.

I'd expect it to see use as long as the meta continues it's current trends.

[BigMac]

I think as this card is counteractive. It will not see play much. There is a reason fork was unrestricted besides the double red cost. It just isnt worth playing because in most situations you are going to respond to your opponent.

Twincast on your own ancestral with a countered ancestral means loss of 2 cards. So you dont use it to twincast your ancestral but to twincast the counter that follows. counteractive.

If you cast it on resolving your opponents ancestral, which is probably cast at your end turn, it leaves you vulnerable as you just tapped 2 very valuable blue mana you could very well be needing in your opponents turn  to counter a real threat.

To cast twincast on a duress is just plain bad. A good comboplayer always makes sure he has multiple threats he can cast all in the same turn. If its not even a combodeck it is even worse, as chances are nothing worth duressing is in his hand. Next to that, duress is a turn 1 spell, which more than often means you dont even have UU to cast the spell. It also means you just lost 2 cards from your hand instead of 1.

All in all, it may see play, but not much as its uses are very limited. The reason fork wasnt played was because it was a bad card, not because of the red red it costs, there are ways to get passed that. Especially as the most slaverdecks run red as a second colour.

[Eandori]

I don't agree.  I think the biggest reason you don't see more old school fork is for the 2 red cost.  Even Vintage decks that run red don't often have access to 2 of it.

So many people on these boards make blanket statements like "you need to play broken cards".  Well what cards are those?

Time Walk
Ancestral Recall
Mana Drain
Regrowth
Demonic Tutor
Tinker
Skeletal Scrying
Swords to Plowshares
Force of Will
Thirst for Knowledge
etc.

Twincast can be any one of those.  Twincast is the possibility to have a 2nd broken card, or even play one off your opponents deck.  To deny the obvious possible power of this card is ignorant IMO.  Sure there are cases where it will not be as good.  But many "broken" cards have those same situations.

[Toad]

Instead of copying a Skeletal Scrying, I'd rather play a Skeletal Scrying myself.

[Shade]

Instead of copying a Skeletal Scrying, I'd rather play a Skeletal Scrying myself.

You wouldn't rather have a Scrying for UU that can become something else, or pitch to a FoW?

[Toad]

No, because Skeletal Scrying will always draw me cards while Twincast can sit in my hand doing nothing when my opponent casts Juggernaut, Tinker with mana open to activate Mindslaver, Gifts Ungiven at my end of turn, Tendrils of Agony or Goblin Welder.

[Eandori]

Again Toad, your response is entirely situational and too general to have meaning here.  Just as easily as you like to describe how the card could be bad, one can easily respond with how the card can be broken.  If your opponent is paying 8 mana, and 7 life to draw 7 cards, and you pay UU to also get seven cards, then YES that is FAR better then tapping 8 mana and paying 7 life also.  So what if you can't use it to draw cards later, perhaps that's not the main function of the card!  The ENTIRE point with that card is it's versatility.  Aggresively cast what you want to get into play and use the Twincast reactively to counter a counter.

I would state, that the only way to REALLY evaluate this card, is to play it.  I would also state that many posters on these boards look for the most negative situation, or try to find any way they can to rip something down.  In one thread I was posting in I got mud slung at me for stating Juggernaut is a good creature.  Now it takes T8 in Waterbury and everybody jumps on the bandwagon stating it's good or referring to it positively.  Hypocrites!

I have to say, I LOVE IT that no T8 deck at waterbury was packing Yawgmoth's Will.  How about eating some crow?

[Moxlotus]

Something tells me that Yawg Will wouldn't be good in decks like WTF or Goblins, but that's just me.  You weren't running it in Slaver.

Tell me-what card would you cut from any deck to put in this card?  While versatile, it is still extremely conditional.

Why isn't Mis'D played a ton?  It can freely counter spells and even steal ancestral recalls!!! It's very versatile-but conditional.  Stifle too.

[Jacob Orlove]

In one thread I was posting in I got mud slung at me for stating Juggernaut is a good creature.  Now it takes T8 in Waterbury and everybody jumps on the bandwagon stating it's good or referring to it positively.  Hypocrites!

I have to say, I LOVE IT that no T8 deck at waterbury was packing Yawgmoth's Will.  How about eating some crow?

You mean SCG Richmond IV? Because Waterbury had quite a few yawgwills in the T8. And where on this site were people criticizing Juggernaut? That card has been solid since forever.

On topic, this card suffers from the problem of not actually doing anything that control decks need their cards to do. So you can twincast a broken spell you played? Guess what, you win anyway. If you're resolving spells, you don't need twincast. So, what if you and your opponent are both resolving spells? There, you'd much rather have either a real counter to answer all, instead of some, of their threats, or real card drawing--not a card that does a little bit of either, but only when you really want the other. And what about when you aren't resolving spells? You'd much rather have, say, a bounce spell to hit that chalice 0 or cheap card drawing to dig for land, instead of a twincast, or another cheap tutor.

Basically, twincast is unnecessary when you're winning, no better (and probably worse) than other options when you're fighting the good fight, and just plain awful when you're losing. That's the opposite of what you want your cards to do.

[Mixing Mike]

Again Toad, your response is entirely situational and too general to have meaning here.

I think I can explain what Toad is trying to say...

The format is about tempo.  For any deck to have the greatest possibility of attaining tempo, every card in your deck needs to be useful as of turn 1, if not then it must be useful on turn 2. Things like Meddling Mage, Misdirection, Arcane Lab, Choke, Null Rod*, Defense Grid, etc and mostly anything that costs over 4 mana fits into this category of situational/tempo hindering cards**.  These situational cards won't always be useful by turn 2, and therefore keeping you from gaining tempo.  I say this because these cards that are only useful when your opponent allows them to become useful. An opponent can just make sure they're never useful, or make them totally useless to you.

Now if your entire deck is based off situational cards then it's not completely trashy, but will lose to anything that's broken.  Decks that fit this description are decks like Fish and Bird Shit.

Don't get me wrong, Fork-ing a spell is my favorite thing to do.  That doesn't mean it's a good strategy in Vintage.


*Sometimes Null Rod can gain you tempo yes, but sometimes it can also lose it.
**Some cards such as Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven, Future Sight (in Sensei), Mind's Desire, and Yawgmoth's Bargain are either core cards to the deck's strategy, or just plain broken.

[Dozer]

After a Twincast testing session today, I feel forced to retract my earlier optimistic opinion about this card. It is a nice one, but Jacob is actually right by tagging the label "win more" on it. I actually feel inclined to write exactly that on my Twincast proxies.

The specifications: I used a 3c-Control deck, no Scepters, with 2 Twincast. The exact list does not matter right now. I played against a weird Hermit Druid combo-deck with 4 Ichorid (go on, look it up!), Control Slaver and 'Tog. Not the most elaborate of gauntlets, but enough for a day. In every situation where I used Twincast, a simple UU counterspell would have been better, as would Misdirection. Highlights included: Twincasting a Deep Analysis, drawing a Drain and using that to Drain the Analysis, and Twincasting my own Time Walk to get in double beats with Colossus (so totally unnecessary). However, more than actually casting it, I pitched it to FoW. That was the best use out I got of the card all day.

Even though Twincast is strong when facing the right conditions, the situations where it actually does something are rare. Follow Toads advice, and use a spell that does something on its own – like Duress, which wins the fight against Twincast even left-handed and blindfolded. Also, I noticed that the actual number of spells you want to Twincast is lower than you'd think, even against a draw-heavy Tog deck. I still see potential for the card, as just the threat of it will keep people off balance (sometimes). There may even be a dedicated Twincast deck that scares the shit out of everybody one day, but I don't see it coming yet. And Twincast is most certainly not the up-and-coming support card in control decks, contrary to my former convictions. A fine example of how testing sets perception of reality straight, if I may say so myself.

Dozer

[xtor]

twincast + tinker or crop rotation or shrap blast = one card sacrificed and twice the tasty reward...  sooo good...

[MaxxMatt]

This deck ( only look at the list and scroll out the other italian words ) functions really well.
I made without thinking too much about other possibilities and it can be adjusted to specific game situations/metagames/matchups with really few changes.

(11 - Protections)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Twincast

(10 - Tutors )
4 Cunning Wish
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker

(14 - Drawers )
4 Brainstorm
4 Thist for Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Time Walk

(2 - Winners )
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Memnarch

(24 - Mana )
7 Fetchlands
7 Island
1 Mox P
1 Mox S
1 Mox R
1 Mox E
1 Mox J
1 Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Crypt
1 Lotus
1 LoA

(15 - Sideboard )
1 Twincast
1 Whisper of the Muse
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Stifle
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapour
1 Hurkill's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Misdirection
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Meloku
1 Morphling
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tormod's Crpyt

Decklist added
-Jacob

I like the Idea of cutting something to add Scepters, that Dozer suggested some posts before.
Don't look at this deck as a "gifts.dec" that need to Tinker out DSC out of a gift. It need gift to find solutions and drawer AND THEN it can tutor his winner on his own.

Twincast made this deck resilient to opponent's broken things and it double the strenght of Wishes.
Twincast on his own spells is risky but it is appearently the best non-stalling solution.
The deck can play with non-blue spells only by playing with Islands.
It is better than anything you can think of.

OTOH, this deck can win or loose by it own as any monoU deck can do, with the differences that some spells are not prohibited to him since Twincast was printed
( My deck's configuration has bad matchup against pure aggro decks, but it isn't geared to face them ).



MAxxMAtt

[Vegeta2711]

As I suggested in my article, the best place for this card is more in a gro-esque deck. Something that can see a lot of cards and can easily pitch it if need be. It is situational and hence should only replace other situational cards, normal control is not a very good place for it.

[jcb193]

What about red/blue?  I know that U/R Phid used to run a fork with moderate success.  I was wondering if anyone had been testing u/r with a little more direct damage.  This seems like a decent fit?

I still believe this card is meant (and most useful) for multi-player and casual, but i am curious if anyone has tested it otherwise?

[Hidden-Leaf]

I think it will see play, just not in very many decks, I like the card, Twincast! What a name.

[Tbhiggins]

Hello

This is my first post. Please be gentle.

There's another conversation on this site about a deck called "Sex," which recurs Time Walk as a lock. I was wondering if Twincast could be used in that regard, as a regrowth which can be sacrificed to Force of Will?

[verduran]

First of all, I'd like to concur with above statements of twincast being a win more card and actually not good enough for serious vintage magic.

But, and this is the main point I'd like to make: it is great fun, and particularly with Sharazad!

Cheers.

[cane]

the first time I heard about twincast, I thought, this card wont see play
because of the simple fact it is a fork, and it doesn't do anything on its own
(if fork was really that good, it would be made to function in a deck)

however, twincasting a time walk should mean game
this situation only comes to mind when playing a Y Win and in that case, it really isn't necessary, cuz you should win no matter what

the one thing people really want to do is twincast an a recall
let's say you get a fow and a blue card, in that case twincast became a uu counterspel cantrip
that isn't that bad, is it?
for the people that hope to get a mana drain and counter the original, uuuu open isn't that common

this may be an incoherent post, but what I'm trying to say is
I don't believe this card is good enough but I would love to see someone convince me that it is

how much I respect dozer's posts, he did not convince me at all (that's before the negative post, for which he earns respect) but was the best I got to see so far
so someone, please break the card, disrupt vintage as it is and make it better (not worse please)