[Deck] RTS Combo

[Whatever Works]

Introduction:

Alot was made of the legalization of portal, and especially Grim Tutor. Lists have come out, and even more probably have been held back because of the potential for "GrimLong.dec" However, It is very very likely that the tutor will be restricted very quickly because frankly testing with smennens build that I am sure isn't his best list is still very strong.

I was sorting though my cards and I came across Rhystic Tutor. The tutor is basically an identical copy of grim tutor with an easier casting cost, and a much more drastic drawback. Rhystic Tutor is a card that has always been auto dismissed almost automatically, because of its pay 2 built in effect that says "plz counter me." I thought about the card for a minute, and then referred to my notes on grimlong, and came up with a theory.

When your playing a deck that consistently wins turn 1-2 (with disruption) the chances of your opponent having 2 open mana is not very likely. Combo tends to bend opponents in an attempt to stabilize, and puts incredibly pressure on turn 1-2 to find crucial answers. Rhystic Tutor can abuse this fact, and if they do tap 2 mana it also makes a counter in there hand such as mana drain etc. essentially useless for that turn, and grim long can easily get high amounts of mana turn 2 following a turn 1 duress etc. to cast it then follow up with a draw 7 that essentially ends the game.

I will say this 1 time and only 1 time so I don't here it later: Grim Tutor > Rhystic Tutor... But Rhystic Tutor is still incredibly viable considering the speed at which the deck runs, and that the deck does not relie on rhystic tutor at all to win because of its high treat density.

RTS (Rhystic Tutor Storm)
Created by Kyle Leith (and help from Scott Limoges)

// Lands
    4  City of Brass
    4  Gemstone Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    2  Elvish Spirit Guide
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Crop Rotation
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Duress
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Necropotence
    3  Rhystic Tutor
    1  Sol Ring
    2  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Timetwister
    1  Tinker
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Wheel of Fortune
    1  Windfall
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Frantic Search
    2  Defense Grid
    1  Hurkyl's Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 2  Defense Grid
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2  Choke
SB: 2  Rebuild
SB: 2  Xantid Swarm
SB: 4  Red Elemental Blast

(Updated List as of 5/14/05)

The decks best feature is its heavy resiliency, and ability to get duressed turn 1, have a draw 7 FoW'ed on Turn 2, and then combo off on turn 3 through another FoW. The deck is extremely hard to play well, but on the other hand it has alot of "oops I win" cards.

To try to help explain the deck here are a few average sample hands, and how they play out:

Hand 1: The fast hand
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Gemstone Mine
Crop rotation
Ancestral Recall
Frantic Search
Dark Ritual

This hand is pretty much a turn 1 kill in almost all circumstances.

Hand 2: The slow hand
Gemstone Mine
City of Brass
Sol Ring
Duress
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Tinker

This hand is fairly simple to play with the turn 1 duress, and the turn 2 tinker for memory jar into the win. if tinker gets countered even after a duress the deck still has 2x brainstorm (+ the draw for the turn which gave windfall)

Considerations:

Defence grid is an amazing card in this deck, but the question is if it deserves perhaps 2-3 maindeck slots. If this resolves if there is a late game (key word is IF) then it is much much more likely that rhystic tutor will resolve when opponent has to play spells such as TfK on there mainphase as well as cantrips as brainstorm that will likely tap them out. The drawback is that the card can be clunky, and that it is often unnecessary since combo is supposed to win game 1 in most situations anyway.

Cabal Ritual: I tested this card in my initial build thinking that it would be superior to elvish spirit guide, but I quickly found this to be wrong. When RTS combo's off getting 10 spells is NEVER an issue while it often can create problems for other combo decks like TPS that can stall miserably. ESG I found superior because Rhystic tutor only costs 1 black instead of 2 there isn't a high demand for the black mana, and the deck doesn't generate threshold unless its likely already won the game. ESG can also be pitched to cast cards such as sol ring which can be followed by a land for a first turn draw 7 which wouldn't be possibly with cabal ritual.

Maindeck Boseiju: I am not really sure it belongs a spot, but it wins games by forcing through game ending draw 7's, or things like tinker/colossus. It can slow down the deck, but that rarely is the case because you can toss it away to a brainstorm etc.

Gifts Ungiven: This card plays very similar to how it would play in TPS, and by that I mean game over the following turn. It sets up huge yawg' wills, or can be cast to grab 4 draw 7's or tutors + duress etc. Overall i am very happy with its inclusion.

Maindeck Bounce: I am still not sure on the slot, but I didn't feel alot of bounce was needed game 1 besides chain of vapor. I could add a hurkyl's, but I rarely felt any desire for the card until I had to consider chalice and sphere of resistance game 2/3.

Why this is better the TPS:
I believe the deck is on par with TPS because it can almost outrace belcher, and it runs an extremely high threat density. It doesn't run FoW, or any basics for that matter but then again B2B and Blood Moon are almost non existent in the T1 New England Metagame. FoW is lost, but in its place is more threats and speed. It can be argued that control/combo is greater then pure combo ATM (which most likely is the case), but I don't believe that 4 FoW makes TPS better when it cannot win a combo mirror consistently.

Why This is better then DeathLong:
This deck is better then Deathlong because you have more threats in the maindeck, and you don't HAVE to resolves a death wish to win the game. It is an incredibly advantage to be running Yawgmoth's will in the maindeck, and to be able to win a game without having to cast rhystic tutor (though by no means is casting it a bad thing).

Conclusion:

I feel RTS is very close to becoming a tier 1 deck, and in all testing it has already reached tier 1 status. I admit the deck is not fully optimized, and the board is not anywhere near where I currently want it to be by any means at all. The deck is fast and resilient and I believe EFFECTIVELY takes advantage of Rhystic Tutor to minimize its disadvantage to the point that it is non existent, and even late game can be played around with practise. It isn't grim tutor at all, but it is a substitute that makes RTS play almost identical to Grimlong.dec, and that is a big compliment.

[warble]

Edit: Oops you have 3 ESG I didn't count, putting you at 29 mana sources  *sighs and pats the combo deck on the head*

Sorry about that, this deck probably plays the same as belcher (as you note below)

Interesting tech with Rhystic tutor, seems like it has bad synergy with one-shot mana sources (you've got lots of 'em) making TPS's build appear loads more broken then this.  Do you use Rhystic tutor for something like lotus, pass the turn, and then combo off?  It doesn't seem quite broke enough for something competing with TPS for both draw, mana, and free card slots.

[Whatever Works]

With 26 mana sources I don't see how your "sample hands" justify all having mana acceleration.  If you were running 28 mana sources, the sample hands make sense.

Show us sample hands without mana acceleration (the hands where CS/SSB can really shine in tournaments), and some critique of how the deck overcomes being strapped for mana (with 11 lands that's gonna happen a lot) please.  Any deck looks good with sol ring + tinker or 2 mox in an opening hand . . . no seriously

I did give pretty good sample hands, but that was primarily to prove a point about the decks I win factor. However, the mana base is extremely solid considering it wins almost as fast as belcher. Many of the mana problems the can have is fixed by brainstorm, and/or agressive mulliganning. The last thing the deck wants to do is to wheel of fortune into 4 lands 2 mox etc... The entire mana structure was set up to be extremely aggressive to play around the decks fundemental flaws.

[crazynlazy]

I wouldn't suggest boseiju in a storm deck the come into play tapped thing just isn't worth it. If you are worried about control than run defense grid MD. I'm just surprised that jdizzle hasn't pwned you for having said you made a better combo deck than deathlong

[Whatever Works]

I wouldn't suggest boseiju in a storm deck the come into play tapped thing just isn't worth it. If you are worried about control than run defense grid MD. I'm surprised that jdizzle hasn't pwned you for having said you made a better combo deck than deathlong

You are probably right on the boseiju in the maindeck. The reason I am trying it out is because of the large ammount of Fish in my meta atm for a reason that I cannot fathom, and because I have about a billion ways to get the land whether it be through crop rotation or through a tutor. It slows the deck down a turn, and is probably weaker then defence grid. However, it cannot be countered and life loss is pretty irrelevent if u resolve a game ending draw 7, Yawgmoth's Will, or tinker for colossus. Boseiju wasnt run in Smennens initial list but I believe that is because of grim tutors double black casting cost, and his general dislike for the card.

[Imsomniac101]

With so much colourless mana and what basically amounts to colourless mana in this deck, have you ever considered Chromatic Sphere?

[Whatever Works]

With so much colourless mana and what basically amounts to colourless mana in this deck, have you ever considered Chromatic Sphere?

I have considered Chromatic Sphere alot with the deck, and came to this conclussion:

Even though it would make Cabal Ritual better (which i eventually cut regardless), and that it would draw more cards etc. It really isnt needed. This is because if you go through the entire decklist there is almost nothing in the deck that has more then 1 colored mana of a specific color for a casting cost with the only acceptions being tendrils/bargain (which by the time u usually cast these you easily have 4+ black in the mana pool). Also Chromatic Sphere is really needed as much of a fixer when all my lands produce every color anyway which cant be said of belcher which often needs that cromatic sphere to make blue to cast something such as timetwister. Also Chromatic Sphere tends to slow down more then what is neccessary, and it isnt a great card to draw off a draw 7.

I am happy to answer all other questions and elaborate on play situations.

[Almighty]

How has DSC been working out compared to something else, like say a Hurkyl's or a maindeck Defense Grid? I don't know if that is a metagame slot, but it would seem like opposing bounce or a Welder or Swords would set you back so incredibly far. It just seems like a better TPS card, since they would be better at protecting it against random things like that.

[Bulls on Parade]

I've been playing a Rhystic Tutor Storm deck since legalization of Portal was announced (I actually got the idea from ELD, who I'm fairly sure was making a comparison about how bad Rhystic Tutor is in the post from which I got the idea), and I've got a few things to say.

I agree that the deck is better than DeathLong, but your list looks horribly untuned and untested.

For the manabase, I run 2 Glimmervoid over Underground Sea and Boseiju- I replace Underground because there's no point to not run a 5C land if you aren't running a basic (which would be folly in this deck) and I don't run Boseiju because it's unplayable in such a fast Storm build. I'm amazed that you haven't found yet (if you have tested) that Colossus simply should not be run in the maindeck. 2 Elvish Spirit Guides seems to be a better number than 3 in a deck with 4 Draw-7's, at least from the testing I've done I've been getting better results in Goldfish games with 2 over 3. The Gifts Ungiven seems entirely random and I would cut it immediately. Sure you can set up a Gifts that pretty much wins the game, but so can most T1 decks.

 I maindeck 2 Defense Grids. I'd recommend it, because I don't think that the cards you run where I run these improve your control matchup. Or any matchup.

Edit:

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 4  Defense Grid
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2  Choke
SB: 2  Rebuild
SB: 4  Xantid Swarm

Cut those for sure. Choke and the 5th bounce spell are probably unnecessary as well.

[Whatever Works]

How has DSC been working out compared to something else, like say a Hurkyl's or a maindeck Defense Grid? I don't know if that is a metagame slot, but it would seem like opposing bounce or a Welder or Swords would set you back so incredibly far. It just seems like a better TPS card, since they would be better at protecting it against random things like that.

I cant say the DSC is the optimal card, but it is the perfect card for my metagame that has alot of fish, and random aggro decks. Basically it is just a 2nd win condition that gets around the opponent casting odd card choices that appear common in New England.

I've been playing a Rhystic Tutor Storm deck since legalization of Portal was announced (I actually got the idea from ELD, who I'm fairly sure was making a comparison about how bad Rhystic Tutor is in the post from which I got the idea.

@ Bulls of Parade
I am not going to argue with anyone about who came up with RTS, but I am the first person to post any sort of list or even mention the idea in any forum. So if you or ELD came up with this earlier thats cool and I am sorry for revealing "tech" on the TMD (apparently I broke the law of "team secrecy" or only release an idea after you milked it away to dust in a local environment.)

Concerning my list that you call "horribly untuned and untested"... The changes you reccommend would essentially put my list within 2 cards of Smennen's grim long list. His list I believe is to mana intensive, slow, and likely not up to date. I have cut Boseiju from my deck for a chrome mox. I realized that the card was unneccesarry. However, I believe that glimmervoid is a terrible card from testing. With 8 mana sources that give you every color there is no need to add additional land that tend to be absolutly usless vs. the decks worse matchups (primarily stax). Glimmervoid in testing was good vs. control etc. However, when i tested postboard vs. alot of decks I found that a glimmervoid often was the equivilent to a lotus petal when I played second or in general vs. stax or a chalice for 0. Overall, the deck has plenty of colored mana, and underground sea has nothing to do about worrying about basics it has everything to do with being a mana source that casts over 85% of the cards in my deck, and not having a significant drawback.

The ESG issue is completly based on prefference. I found 3 to be the optimal # because I wanted a deck that would win faster then Smennen's grimlong build, and the card was also a good card choice vs. Stax. Again, if I was building an anti-control combo deck I would probably drop the # and have defense grids. My belief about the deck is that I should usually win game 1, and then grids come in game 2. By running 3rd ESG it helps the game 1 matchup vs. Stax (minimally but enough to make worth stating).

The gifts does look fairly random, but doesnt it look random in any TPS decklist you see as well? I dont think any of the people who playing TPS currently will be cutting Gifts because it looks random. In this deck it guarantees the win next turn as much if not more then TPS or SSB. Perhaps it deserves to get cut but until I find a better card for the slot that would be a mid/late game I believe it deserves to stay. What would you cut for the slot besides defense grid? Dont get me wrong, I like defense grid because it has great synergy with rhystic tutor but the deck is already extremely resistant to control, and usually wins the game 1 under normal circumstances through FoW and duress etc.

Your general thoughts on the sideboard I have to agree 100% with. I havent really focused to much on the board because combo doesnt heavily sideboard vs. anything. When I do make a sideboard it will probably be a transversional sideboard that would turn the deck possibly into some form of oath with eternal witness for yawg's will or something like that.

If I was going to a metagame where I new that the decks i was most likely to see would be SSB and Oath I would definitly adjust my maindeck to be similar to what you said by dropping 3rd ESG and either the Gifts (or the Frantic Search) for 2 Defence Grids. I have been testing this deck for months, and I take great pride in not posting lists that are rushed, untuned, and untested. However, I will further consider your thoughtful suggestions.

[Bulls on Parade]

Concerning my list that you call "horribly untuned and untested"... The changes you reccommend would essentially put my list within 2 cards of Smennen's grim long list. His list I believe is to mana intensive, slow, and likely not up to date. I have cut Boseiju from my deck for a chrome mox. I realized that the card was unneccesarry. However, I believe that glimmervoid is a terrible card from testing. With 8 mana sources that give you every color there is no need to add additional land that tend to be absolutly usless vs. the decks worse matchups (primarily stax). Glimmervoid in testing was good vs. control etc. However, when i tested postboard vs. alot of decks I found that a glimmervoid often was the equivilent to a lotus petal when I played second or in general vs. stax or a chalice for 0. Overall, the deck has plenty of colored mana, and underground sea has nothing to do about worrying about basics it has everything to do with being a mana source that casts over 85% of the cards in my deck, and not having a significant drawback.

The deck should play like GrimLong plays. I haven't seen his (Smennen's) list for this deck, but I have tested my own Grim Tutor based storm decks as well as Rhystic Tutor decks and the conclusions I came to are simply what I think is best for the deck. Gilmmervoid is certainly not a terrible card, but I didn't realize you were speaking about this deck in your metagame when you referred to this deck. A primarily fish/ stax metagame seems very weird compared to most metagames at the present (when Mana Drain is basically at at all-time high) and judging by your location I'd say these probably aren't the only archetypes you should prepare to play against at tournaments. I know Underground Sea has nothing to do with basics since it isn't a basic land.. nor did I infer that- sorry for coming off unclear.

The ESG issue is completly based on prefference. I found 3 to be the optimal # because I wanted a deck that would win faster then Smennen's grimlong build, and the card was also a good card choice vs. Stax.

The optimal card choices of any fully-optimized list are never based on personal preference. They are based on extensively playtesting, and (slightly) less-so on the expected metagame.

The gifts does look fairly random, but doesnt it look random in any TPS decklist you see as well? I dont think any of the people who playing TPS currently will be cutting Gifts because it looks random. In this deck it guarantees the win next turn as much if not more then TPS or SSB. Perhaps it deserves to get cut but until I find a better card for the slot that would be a mid/late game I believe it deserves to stay. What would you cut for the slot besides defense grid? Dont get me wrong, I like defense grid because it has great synergy with rhystic tutor but the deck is already extremely resistant to control, and usually wins the game 1 under normal circumstances through FoW and duress etc.

Gifts Ungiven is extremely terrible in this deck. It's good in TPS because now TPS builds are more or less built around the card, and run 2-3 copies rather than one. TPS is also 2 full turns slower than this deck, so 4cc cards aren't as unplayable. Also, TPS runs fewer non-renewable mana sources than this deck. Gifts Ungiven will guarantee the win in any combo deck after it resolves, but that doesn't mean it's playable in this one- it is too expensive for "RTS" and that's that. Agreed, this deck should take Game 1 vs. most Mana Drain decks, but that doesn't mean Defense Grid doesn't need to be played maindeck in a general metagame, or the current NE metagame (extremely Drain-heavy).

Your general thoughts on the sideboard I have to agree 100% with. I havent really focused to much on the board because combo doesnt heavily sideboard vs. anything. When I do make a sideboard it will probably be a transversional sideboard that would turn the deck possibly into some form of oath with eternal witness for yawg's will or something like that.

For this reason I am so happy with my list before game 2- I already have 2 Grids maindeck. I usually side in a 3rd, or side out the 2 if I won't be needing them. Ironically, Oath/ Witness was the first SB I tried and I still have that list. It did not test well for me at all. Oath beats aggro, this deck already beats aggro. Oath isn't much stronger against control than the Game 1 list, and the deck already has game against control. The mirror is what I worry about since it's all about who gets a more explosive draw or who gets double Duress.

If I was going to a metagame where I new that the decks i was most likely to see would be SSB and Oath I would definitly adjust my maindeck to be similar to what you said by dropping 3rd ESG and either the Gifts (or the Frantic Search) for 2 Defence Grids. I have been testing this deck for months, and I take great pride in not posting lists that are rushed, untuned, and untested. However, I will further consider your thoughtful suggestions.

Honestly, you should make these changes anyway, at least to test so you'll see what I'm talking about. They're strictly better for, as I've said- a general metagame or the current NE metagame.

[Whatever Works]

@ Bulls of Parade

I have to agree with alot of the statements about the optimal list for the NE metagame. I really like defence grid, and I most likely will put 2 of them back in my maindeck which is the same as my original configuration. However, the only real concern I have with them is that they can slow down the deck slightly, and they dont make your opponents duress/unmask etc. any worse. The inclussion of them guarantees the removal of Gifts that has TERRIBLE synergy with defense grid and that shouldnt need any real explanation.

Finding the best mana base is something I want to test further. I have considered testing a mana base that runs a few basics... The 5c mana base I currently have (testing different ammounts of each land), and I am testing a land grant version that could have potential, but it would probably make a deck that wins turn 1-2 less stable, and much easier to play vs. with the reveal hand requirement. The speed increase that it provides probably would be to minimal to be viable.

[Bulls on Parade]

I have to agree with alot of the statements about the optimal list for the NE metagame.

I should hope so 

Finding the best mana base is something I want to test further. I have considered testing a mana base that runs a few basics... The 5c mana base I currently have (testing different ammounts of each land), and I am testing a land grant version that could have potential, but it would probably make a deck that wins turn 1-2 less stable, and much easier to play vs. with the reveal hand requirement. The speed increase that it provides probably would be to minimal to be viable.

I really like Land Grant combo decks, but this isn't the card for the deck. Switching most of your manabase to duals (Trops, Bayous, and a Taiga) will slow you down because you'll need to search for the right colors to play your business spells. The same goes for basics- this deck just flat out can't support them.

[Whatever Works]

Tested Land Grant, and Bulls of Parade you are 100% correct its just awful. You never want the opponent to see your hand with this deck unless its neccessary. The deck can play through duress, but casting land grant and letting them essentially plan the exact spell to counter to make your life more difficult is extremely ennoying.

One thing that should be noted about this deck that I never really went into was how well this deck combo's off. When you win the game you really WIN the game. Yawgmoth's Will is much more broken in this deck then in most decks, because if you have 3 black in pool, and a hand that consists of rhystic tutor and yawgmoth's will you use the 3 to cast rhystic to get black lotus and then use that to cast yawgs will which will easily let the deck gernerate a minimum of around 4+ mana from the will without counting the recasting of rituals, etc...

I am not 100% sure about the frantic Search slot. It has good synergy with Academy but it often just feels weak, because it usually untaps at most 2 lands, or just academy. Mystical/Vamp are strong in the deck and the next real question is if the deck needs a 4th rhystic tutor? I have tested both and feel like 3 is a good # because the deck is tight and bounce helps the deck from having the "the meandeck tendrils" issue of losing to everything.

I have updated my most recent list on my initial post, and am still happy to answer questions or talk about how to properly play the deck. The board still needs work, but thats not the biggest concern atm.

[Bulls on Parade]

I think I made myself unclear earlier. I think this deck is "better" than Deathlong because truly it is much easier to play, as difficult as may be. Therefore, I think more players will have good results if they try a deck like this rather than a deck with Wishes.

I don't want discussion to dry up in this thread already, so I'll post my list for you:

Mana (31):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid
Tolarian Academy
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
Mox Diamond
Black Lotus
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
5 Moxes
Sol Ring
Crop Rotation
Spells (29):
4 Duress
Yawgmoth's Will
3 Rhystic Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
Timetwister
2 Defense Grid
Demonic Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Ancestral Recall
Tinker
Memory Jar
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Necropotence
Mind's Desire
Time Spiral
Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm

Differences from your list highlighted

Time Spiral is the worst card in the deck, but I'd still prefer it rather than Time Walk, Frantic Search, Demonic Consultation, Tendrils #2 or Darksteel Colossus. It might become Chain of Vapor. I've never had a problem finding my one Tendrils, and if I did, rather than adding a 2nd Tendrils main, I'd probably run a copy of Burning Wish and SB Tendrils and an artifact destruction spell.

Edit: Nevermind, your list has changed

[Whatever Works]

I am not the biggest fan of mox diamand primarily because it often uncastable, and its card disadvantage. I find one of the major strengths of the deck is that it is able to beat combo, because of its high threat density, and ability to not have to pitch an entire hand to cast a threat that might be countered. I also find that mana is never really a huge issue but if you run glimmervoid (which i dislike and would likely run forbidden orchard over) the inclussion makes sense and would have synergy.

I am not the biggest fan of time spiral because its typically hard to cast, and It is generally inferior to almost all other options, I would definetly run Frantic search over it considering you run academy and crop rotation. I have tested chrome mox and it has neither impressed me or dissapointed me, but i geuss its based on prefference.

I dont think I could ever play with just 1 tendrils but thats just me. I dont mind having it in my hand and giving me the ability to rhystic for cards that set up the tendrils instead of having to tutor the tendrils, but primarily I dont think there are enough cards better in it.

Still Working on the sideboard, but I definetly think mystic remora is worth a slot even though its casting cost is the primary CoTV # of 1.

[Bulls on Parade]

I am not the biggest fan of mox diamand primarily because it often uncastable, and its card disadvantage.

Still Working on the sideboard, but I definetly think mystic remora is worth a slot even though its casting cost is the primary CoTV # of 1.

Diamond adds to storm count, plus you probably want to save that land drop for Academy- you won't be playing Diamond any turn you don't expect you can go off, since you'd just play the land you would pitch otherwise.

Sideboarding is tricky. I don't like Chain of Vapor because Chalice for 1 is what you'll see most often on the other side of the table, but it's also able to bounce Enchantments like Arcane Lab.

I don't like Time Spiral. I kind of want to go back to Consult in it's place, but then I'd have to add another Tendrils, and the list is tight. Maybe it will be replaced by the Burning Wish I mentioned.

[xrobx]

Okay, first of all I'm going to say that I'm new to testing this deck, and I'm finding it quite fun, and good to play.  Maybe it's not something you'd take to a tournament just yet with all the combo and combo hate running rampant, but it definitly looks to have potential.  I've found 2 builds have proven their success to me, one of which was a straight goldfishing combo-styled win, and the other version played around mainboarded defense grids.  This is simply because a) you trounce any stupid aggro out there right now and b) you really do like to go off under a grid...it makes this deck SO much stronger.  Anyways, enough rambling..

Below I've listed a game I just tested and who it shows the absolute perfection that is rhystic tutor, and how it can be abused in this deck.  This version was running 4x land grants, a belcher manabase, a belcher, tinker with colossus backup, in case for some odd reason aggro tries to get the upper hand, or memory jar is missing...hehe, that is a terrible, terrible SNES game (Mario is Missing)...what a waste of $24...anyhow, if you're in for a good read, read below.  I broke this hand out with the amazement of how this deck can just draw every card in it's deck, play every spell, and have tons of mana throughout the process.  Please don't mind the subtle mistakes due to the annoying controls of MWS mixed with latenight exhaustion.  Anyways, I just hopes this help to demonstrate a few good situations and room for discussion on how the deck "breaks out" so to speak.  When resorting to such a gold-fishing, and fragile build, you can gain some pretty retarded amounts of brokeness in this deck...it should probably be tested by someone willing to take the time to give a solid ratio on it's turn 1 win rate.  I've only had about 15 games of testing so far, and it has shown very solid attempts or wins on turn 1 and 2 throughout I'd had to say atleast 9-11 of these games.  It just seemed to be my play mistakes at times that cost me the games, not the ability of the deck. At times, the lotus was sac'd for blue instead of black, and silly mistakes like that, but the deck proved to be a solid turn 1 all-in type deck.  Without further adieu...

Sickest first turn hand win, thank you Rhystic Tutor...

2000+ word MWS log deleted. While the MWS log was pertaining to the subject at hand (and as such, I'd like to stress that this is NOT a warning), several people took offense at its unexpected length in the middle of an ongoing thread. A summary would be acceptable. If you've misplaced the logs, PM me because I saved it. - Bram

[dandan]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22355.0

It was ELD's thread but I was the one who brought up Rhystic Tutor. I wanted to make the point that although Grim Tutor is good and although if forced to choose I would restrict it, it is very very similar in power to a card I had not seen used in Vintage up to now, Rhystic Tutor. I pointed out the situations in which RT could be used and was more than a little disappointed to see a few 'WTF are you talking about?' answers and no discussion of the point that I was trying to make - that Grim Tutor really is right on the dividing line between warranting restriction and escaping it, with other cards like RT very very similar in use (even some situations where they are better) but nobody even dreams od restricting them.

I claim no credit as I was making a point rather than a deck but in my mind (and possibly it is only in my mind) I opened this particular can of worms

[Whatever Works]

@Xbox Rob

Thanks for showing interest in the deck. I have to agree that it is an incredibly fun deck to play, and has a very good goldfish. Though Defense Grid helps alot what impresses me is this decks resilancy. In testing recently the deck has managed to win games through 3+ counters, and 2 Duresses, and a meddling mage calling tendrils (all in the same game). The deck draws so many threats and can generate so much mana that its ability to cast demonic (have it countered) by opponent tapping out for drain, and then following it up with rhystic for black lotus into yawgmoth's will is just redicules.

@ dandan

I know there has been talk about rhystic tutor but no serious deck work so if I am trying take credit, I am trying to take credit for creating the first viable list to be posted online, or as the first person to bring a rather overlooked or ignored card (with the acception of a few talanted players) to the front of attention. Kinda like how smennen would take a deck at intuion/ak and add meandeck to title, accept I took a less known card and gave the deck and actually gave the deck a classic good name thats memerable, and umm... not self/team glorifying... However, Thankyou for your imput and I myself am a little suprised that I havent gotten heavily flamed, or critisized (especially on this demanding forum) for creating a deck that runs such a historically unpopular card.

Currently in Testing concerning the deck:

# of Rhystic Tutors - I am currently running 3 but have been testing 4. So far I have found 3 to be the best in an uknown metagame, because card isnt particularly great late game, and the card isnt something u really want 2 of in your opening hand (though being able to rhystical tutor for lotus ---> use lotus to rhystic for will ---> cast will replay lotus, ritual, duress, etc. is very good.)

# of defence grids - Currently running 2, but testing 3 has been very interesting. This deck already outraces most combo decks so running 3 doesnt hurt... The deck beats almost all aggro unless they get down a null rod (which can easily be played around) so 3rd defense grid doesnt hurt to bad, but the decks great vs. control which is probably the most concerning matchup. However, the card isnt great to have multiples of but then you have to consider that this card gets FoW'ed ALOT. So I am not sure yet.

# of Bounce - Curently I running Chain and Hurkyl's...  I like this setup because if chalice set at 1 hurkyl's makes chain of vapor usable, but then again hurkyl's is often an I win more card, but it often can help pull wins out of knowhere, and just win games by creating huge Mind's desires for #'s like 8 on turn 2, or on turn 10 if a control player for some reason lets you resolve it so they wont set themselves up for tapping down to allow a rhystic.

Collossus - Is it neccessary??? I find it mediocre, and rarely kill with it, but I find it as a security blanket. The best comparision I have to this card is when people ran Time Walk in Long.dec a while ago as an "oops I screwed up, but my deck is so good with an extra turn I can win next turn because the decks that broken."

Orchard maindeck over Glimmervoid??? This deck doesnt lose to much life so why not run this card if u win fast, and if I might be running a Oath board (though i am not sure why I would yet accept to confuse people who heavily sideboard) it would be the right call to run?

Thanks for responces, Any thoughts, comments, ideas, or suggestions welcome... Still working on a sideboard.

[Bulls on Parade]

# of Rhystic Tutors - I am currently running 3 but have been testing 4. So far I have found 3 to be the best in an uknown metagame, because card isnt particularly great late game, and the card isnt something u really want 2 of in your opening hand (though being able to rhystical tutor for lotus ---> use lotus to rhystic for will ---> cast will replay lotus, ritual, duress, etc. is very good.)

Something like that shouldn't really be a metagame call; things like Defense Grid are metagame calls.

# of defence grids - Currently running 2, but testing 3 has been very interesting. This deck already outraces most combo decks so running 3 doesnt hurt... The deck beats almost all aggro unless they get down a null rod (which can easily be played around) so 3rd defense grid doesnt hurt to bad, but the decks great vs. control which is probably the most concerning matchup. However, the card isnt great to have multiples of but then you have to consider that this card gets FoW'ed ALOT. So I am not sure yet.

I'm confident 2 is the right number maindeck with 1-2 more SB, and I've tested a lot. 3 is where you start to see 2 per game, where with 2 you can tutor for it without much of a problem. The deck already has game vs. control even without Grids, and the 3rd maindeck is superfluous.

Collossus - Is it neccessary??? I find it mediocre, and rarely kill with it, but I find it as a security blanket. The best comparision I have to this card is when people ran Time Walk in Long.dec a while ago as an "oops I screwed up, but my deck is so good with an extra turn I can win next turn because the decks that broken."

Colossus is real bad. 100% of the time (in this deck) it is either a dead card or a win more card.

Orchard maindeck over Glimmervoid??? This deck doesnt lose to much life so why not run this card if u win fast, and if I might be running a Oath board (though i am not sure why I would yet accept to confuse people who heavily sideboard) it would be the right call to run?

Glimmervoid has an almost negligible drawback in this deck and as for the reasons I've stated above I think the Oath 'board is unnecessary.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I think that with each revision your list will just get closer to mine, provided you keep testing.

[dandan]

@ dandan
I know there has been talk about rhystic tutor but no serious deck work so if I am trying take credit, I am trying to take credit for creating the first viable list to be posted online, or as the first person to bring a rather overlooked or ignored card (with the acception of a few talanted players) to the front of attention. Kinda like how smennen would take a deck at intuion/ak and add meandeck to title, accept I took a less known card and gave the deck and actually gave the deck a classic good name thats memerable, and umm... not self/team glorifying... However, Thankyou for your imput and I myself am a little suprised that I havent gotten heavily flamed, or critisized (especially on this demanding forum) for creating a deck that runs such a historically unpopular card.

That's fine with me, the deck is clearly yours. I merely want to make it clear that if you use bad cards Dandan has probably already been there and done that. After all, anyone can use good cards! In this case I was just using RT to make the point that Grim Tutor was not a lot better than a tutor that just about nobody had ever used (I think it had seen play in my monoblue-highlander-crap-cards-that-nobody-ever-plays deck) at a time when there were a lot of posts about how the world was ending due to a new 3CC tutor.
Perhaps having seen such a wacky suggestion (saying RT functions at a similar level to GT in the early game) once, fewer people viewed it as that strange when you used it in a deck. In addition you explained its use, which is always a good idea, far too many people post decklists with little to no explanation.

[xrobx]

Back again to discuss the wickedness known as RTS..

The first thing I noticed after posting and playing this deck for a while was that the manabase seemed pretty stable, and often provided the right mana, when I needed it.  I found this to be very good, with the only drawback being that sometimes, just sometimes..I'd try to combo off and my storm count just wouldn't make it quite there.  Often times, though, this was not the case.  When the did DID actually win, it won really big and long and stretched out.  I thought this was cool, but why not decrease the manabase to include something that would allow me to cast shit for free storm counters?  I mean, why not run land grant...?  I thought of the drawbacks of running the land grants for a moment...well, basically says "ask my opponent for permission to go off?" and my opponent could simply reply, "no, not now bitch..." 
Obviously, at first sight this looked discouraging, and it should be.  Why the hell would you want your opponent looking through your hand, deciding what he exactly needs to counter, or in some cases, just stop you from getting mana with.  At further sight though, and after much testing and playing, I found that often times my opponent wasn't running duress, or didn't seem to have the mana untapped to counter the land grant.  Most times, however, I found that I could go off under a duress, opening up a world of land grants with easy searching possibilities.  Well, if I wanted to convince myself, I figured I'd better figure out an optimal manabase, because land grants went so hand and hand with belcher, this deck seemed to win a few alternate win conditions.  This idea intrigued me, and I revised my manabase to:

Revised Manabase:
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga (Helps with wheel casting, and doubles damage on early belchers.)
1x Wooded Foothills (Get what I want now, and take land out of deck for belcher...nice.)
1x Tolarian Academy (BrOkEn.)

This allowed me to give the deck a strong win condition, which could be easily played off a tinker, in the case that it was safer than jar, or simply if drawn and paid casting cost turn one.  Not only that, this card coupled nicely with hurkyl's recall; which proved to be a strong storm adding card in this deck, and mana producer.

The way this deck seemed to flow was, well, spectacular.  I found in testing that I would go off turn one on about a 60% rate.  I also saw that although a turn one opening hand win may not be foreseable, the hand did have a nice duress, and turn two defense grid option.  If this wasn't the case, I saw that the hand would pack atleast something in it's place, usually a tutor of sorts.  The nice about this, is that the duresses effectively acted as time walks for me, in the way that the card for card ratio was a direct tradeoff.  I would duress, they would lose a precious FoW, or mana drain.  Usually, that was enough to stall them the needed turn, simply dropping a land, and saying pass.  I then would draw into my next card, with 2 mana sources this turn to play with.  Hence, the Rhystic Tutors are still very strong this turn, and probably next turn if my opponent plays atleast something of one mana or more....

I found this deck pulling victories out of no where, as the carefully floated mana turned a world of hope into world of pain.  Often, a floated black mana leftover from a carefully placed wheel or windfall would ensure the usage in the next 7 cards.  The deck seemed to generate a ton of mana, at the most desperate times, when most desperately needed.  This gave me an idea for another solid mana source, channel.  Although this did at first appear to be a hard maneuver to pull off, GG didn't prove to be a very hard color combination to get.  This was probably because the manabase was based around forests, and running 4 ESGs usually you'd be lucky enough to see atleast one in your first 7-10 cards.  Channel was added to the list.

These subtle changes to the manastructure of the deck made it prove to be more consistant on storm counts, easily available mana when needed, and gave the deck a nice new win condition, that was another outlet for tinker in some bazaar case that Jar didn't quite mike the cut.  Believe me, these cases do sometimes happen, when you feel that a jar would quite do anything, if you've taken most of the mana sources out of your deck...or worse, when jar was in the graveyard.  Jar didn't seem to be a card most opponents wanted out, so they would counter it.  In most cases though, it was a tinker target, which basically means it was a "Cheap Win; same basic effects as a Darksteel had, but maybe not as vulnerable." 


With the same basic structures we've discussed, and the change that I've done to the default lists' card choices listed above, this deck performed great for me, and I'm still enjoying playing it today.  I'm interested to know if anyone who has made these suggested changes has had result wise?  How often did you play it, and did you find the drawback of land grant to be really that bad, behind a defense grid or duress?  How often did it "just win?"  Did you find the black/green scheme really fun when going for rituals?  I found I'd often get the following hands of "something1, dark ritual, something2, yawgmoth's will, something3, something4, land grant."
Obviously, this seemed quite broken anyways, because a will was just game over when resolved.  Yes, the will did show up more than expected in the deck, but I feel that was largely due to the fact that "hey, I had 5 tutors in this deck..."  This gave the feeling of having 6 wills, almost all of which are castable on the first turn through the best mana producers in the game.  For mana, you had 6 ways to cast a first turn 3 mana producer, which could effectively fuel one of these six wills.  Other times, when you didn't draw into these "will" conditions, you'd run into a draw7 condition.  This did effectively the same thing, as it allowed you to run into more free mana, storm counters, and tutors.  The deck seemed to have a nice flow to it, with great acceleration, and mild drawbacks.

Anyways, enough from me, feedback is greatly anticipated.

[Whatever Works]

@Xbox Rob
You lost me a little bit... have you changed the deck to play more like belcher or like storm? Maybe I am just missunderstanding you post, but if you could post a decklist then perhaps I might be able to follow your post better, and be able to make a more effective reply.

@ Bull on Parade

2 Defence Gride is optimal. I had 2 in my original list, and after screwing around with different #'s it appears proper. My thought behind an oath board isnt so much that I am concerned about aggro, but it is an incredibly affective way to get a huge advantage game 2 when opponent sideboards in hate and prepares for combo... Its nice to be able to go turn 1 Oath after they cast 1st turn chalice for 1, and are probably holding something such as stifle (which does stop oath trigger for a turn, but it would still hurt combo more then oath.) I also cant begin to describe how crappy timetwister really is in the deck, but perhaps we play the deck with different levels of agression that might make its affectiveness different for me then you in testing.

[xrobx]

edit: may 21/05
I don't know why, but when I copied and pasted it didn't list everything...well, it's there now.

Sure, currently, my decklist is looking like this.  It may not be optimal, but it seems to be proving itself fairly well as far as consistancy for comboing off early game.  If my last post was hard to read, please note it was very late and I was very intoxicated

// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Taiga
    1  Wooded Foothills
    1  Tropical Island
    1  Bayou

// Creatures
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    1  Timetwister
    1  Windfall
    1  Wheel of Fortune
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Tinker
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Sol Ring
    3  Rhystic Tutor
    1  Necropotence
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Frantic Search
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Crop Rotation
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Duress
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Goblin Charbelcher
    1  Channel
    2  Defense Grid
    4  Land Grant

[tito del monte]

@ xrobx

is it just me or is your list missing alot of the cards you mentioned in your previous post: land grant, channel, belcher, hurkl's recall.. guess you had another late and intoxicated one! 

[Whatever Works]

@ XRobX

I am not exactly sure why you would go the land grant path. Sure it makes the deck slightly quicker, but it also makes the deck less stable. Speeding up the deck 1/2 a turn will not improve any of its matchups, and would only make it more inconsistent and more hampered by common hate such as root maze and null rod. Also your configuration is different to the point where it would almost be worth playing meandeck tendrils, or just switching the deck to belcher because it appears your falling away from the decks strengths that make it currently such a viable deck in the metagame.

I currently am trying to search for a way to improve the stax matchup any thoughts/suggestions on specific bounce cards or hate cards are welcome. I was considering running even energy flux, because the deck can then clean house and lay down all artifacts on 1 turn and win... Also was considering maybe seal of cleansing which is also usful post board vs. several decks that bring in chalice or null rod etc.

[xrobx]

@me: idiot....updated list

[Purple Hat]

I just played some games vs stax with this and, while it's a pain in the ass, I was able to win more than I lost even when facing sphere, and In one game chalice for two.  I think you just have to board in lots of bounce rather than putting in something like energy flux. 

one problem I noticed is that sometimes you get a hand that wins turn one if your opponent doesn't have two mana open, but loses if they drop a second mana source.  I mean I had the ultimate nightmare situation vs stax where he went turn one academy, mox, mox, sphere and I now not only had to deal with sphere but also had 6 dead cards (4 rhystic tutors, 2 defense grids)  needless to say I lost that game.

I think an interesting question is whether duress is better than therapy even though you don't play creatures.  Therapy beats double force, duress doesn't.  Duress is clearly better vs stax or when they don't have force but when they don't have force you're probably winning anyway so I'm not sure it matters.  when you cast duress in this deck you know what you're looking for in almost all situations.  also Kyle, cut the colossus for chrome mox already.  SO much better.

I think that's all I've got right now.  the deck is interesting, have to test it more and see where it's going.

Hale

[Whatever Works]

Thanks for the interest Hale! First off I have cut the collossus (well I moved it to the sideboard) to include the chrome mox. After discussing that with you and GI I realized that it is deffinetly the proper play. Concerning Cabal Therapy it is a very interesting Idea, and I think I will try shoving a few in the sideboard sinse they would be a cool trick for game 2. However, G1 they would seem horrible unless you have scouted the field and know what everybody is playing. Which would be impossible (especially for someone who has a bad short term memory and is bad with names).

For any combo deck to be winning more then 50% against stax i think is very impressive. Sphere/Chalice/in the eye of chaos can all give trouble to any combo deck and overcoming that hurdle of brokeness is the difference between 5-1-1 at a tournement and 4-2 (9th place and leaving with an asian foil choke).

I have also come to the conclussion that anything more then 3 rhystic tutors is a mistake. Its not something you really want to see 2 of. It can be good in multiples when you can pull something off like Rhystic --> Lotus ---> Rhystic ---> Will. But the deck is already extremely explosive and i think running buisness is never the real issue, but an after thought of hmm.. do I have 3 mana (the answer is usually yes, but I am trying to make it an almost always).

I have been working on a new and significantly improved version of RTS. I will post the list soon. It will be extremely detailed, and I am reasonably sure the people who test it will concur that it is better then its distant cousin TPS and hopfully will make a little noise. I will make sure it is represented at a few upcoming NE tourneys. Who knows perhaps I will actually get a bit of credit for this deck unlike rectortop (cough). Any thoughts, or comments on the deck are appreciated.

Kyle Leith