Single card discussing: Weathered Wayfarer

[mrieff]

I was looking for a deck to play at the french Vintage championship. I expected the better/powered to bring a lot of Combo (TPS/Belcher) or Gifts-control decks tuned to win the mirror.

I liked Jason Zheng's, winning Waterbury W/U Fish deck (below for reference) in those matchups.
I think the deck would have
-favourable matups against combo and gift-based control
-decent matchups against most other good T1 decks (Workshop, Dragon)
-bad matchup against anything with lots of creatures 

With that metagame in mind I removed the MD Plowshares and Flying men, and added Brainstorm and Weathered Wayfarer.



1st:  Jason Zheng, W/U Fish

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Meddling Mage
4 Flying Men
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Miisdirection
2 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
SB:
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Energy Flux
3 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
3 Orim's Chant
3 Arcane Lab


I went 4-2, but this version of the deck is not really what i want to discuss here. First I want to try out some thing for myself first, before I ask for feedback on the deck as a whole.

Rather, it is Weathered Wayfarer. In short, this card has been insane. With its ability to search any land, you can dig up 5 strip effects, factories, and colored mana.
Getting less land that your opponent is easier than it looks. Don't forget that you can Waste or Fetch, and put that effect on the stack. For instance:

Opponent has 2 Underground Sea
You have Weathered Wayfarer, 1 Tundra, 1 Wasteland.

1: Sacrifice Wasteland (this is a cost), Target Underground Sea
2: In response, Activate Weathered Wayfarer (at this moment you have only 1 land against 2 Underground Sea's)
3: Wasteland resolves: destroy Underground Sea

Same works for Fetchland


Or consider this sample draw against any Control deck:

Turn 1 Opponent:   Land, Duress, go
Turn 1 You:           Tundra, Weathered Wayfarer, go 
Turn 2 Opponent:   Land, go (Mana Drain ready)
Turn 2 You:           Seach for Wasteland, Waste, go
Turn 3 Opponent:  Land, go (Mana Drain ready)
Turn 3 You:          Seach for Wasteland, Waste, go
Turn 4 Opponent:  Go
Turn 4 You:          Attack for 1. Either use your 1 mana for another Spell of add another land and play Standstill
Turn 5 Opponent:  Discard, Go
Turn 5 You:          ...


The scenario above is really quite common. You could search up to 5 strip effects, and your opponent has to really have drawn a lot of land to survive that.

Has anybody else given this guy a chance in an U/W Fish build? If you like the deck I strongly urge to you try him out. In a highly powered metagame I'm sure this guy won't dissapoint.


 

[Nantuko Rice]

If you check out towards the end of my report, there's some discussion going on about further tuning the deck.

WU TANG Fish has a good matchup against combo definately after sideboarding, where you bring in all the hate.

It also has a good matchup against other aggro decks, thanks to javelineer and swords. Swords is mostly there as an answer for Oath.

You have my list, but what is the list you played?

The current discussion is definately for the addition of wayfarer, BUT flying men is definately not the card to cut. The "slot" that people are currently playing around with alot is the Javelineer slot.

My personal current changes to the deck right now are:
-1 ninja
+1 time walk
-2 Javelineer
+2 Wayfarer
SB:
-1 Chain of Vapor (bad card)
-1 Swords (i find that 3 maindeck with 4 javelineer and 3 sideboard bounce are enough. I am cutting down to 2 javelineer though)
+2 Curfew (oath sides in pro-color creatures- which currently appears to be the most problematic matchup)

[Corndog]

However common those situations may be, I'd bet most of the time they're some fetches in there that stops you from wastelanding it. Also you're playing with a creature that is meant to disrupt, but doesn't disrupt until it is out of summoning sickness. The only creature that is worth waiting for is something fat or a goblin welder. It is also horrible with ninja of the deep hours. There is at least sue-do symmetry with javalineers. Allowing you to gain an extra counter at the cost of giving it summoning sickness again. Weathered wayfarer also doesn't help turn 1 fetch land, turn 2 regular land, moxen, go off tendrils you to death.

Now lets get to the point that once its done being sickened. You have to use even more resources to use its ability. Fish is all about abusing its resources to the fullest. If the effect put it into play, then it'd be abusing a resource. Against most decks abusing this creature is almost time walking them. Basically you destroy a land, and they get to use their moxen and draw a card and setup. While you attack them even slower than fish usually does.

Reality Check time.
It is good when you strip your opponent 5 times in a row? sure. How often are they gonna play into 6 strip effects. Not often.

This guy is only remotely good when your opponent doesn't draw any basics or fetches. Which will be rare. And even at that place. You'll have landlocked yourself at 1 land. So when the dust settles, you'll have a 1/1 and 1 land, and they'll have a full hand with moxen out, and 6 turns to setup.

Flying men vs the weathered wayfarer. It doesn't fly. that means its harder for you to ninja once you've taken out their lands. Secondly it doesn't actually combat your opponents. They can simply wait until they can go broken and fight through a few strip effects, or lay down enough basics/fetches to dump something fat thats gonna run over you. Makes your match up vs combo weaker. You put a creature who doesn't pitch to force, and has no evasion in to strip the lands that combo doesn't play many of anyway, and can win off the ones they play that turn.

If they go first, they get 2 uninterrupted turns with their lands, even if you play a wayfarer.. Which is really bad for the fish player. I know flying men doesn't do any better. But it does pitch to force, which would help you through these turns slightly better. It also makes using daze horrible. Sure you get under the land count. But you play a land, then fetch at the end of their turn.. you did nothing.. they did everything.

I'd love to hear other people's oppionions.

[mrieff]

Nantuko Rice> First, congratulations on your win!
I find it hard to comment on your changes, because I want to play with the deck myself a bit. I will probably try to take this deck into another direction than you are, so my individual comments will not be of many use to you right now


My list

4 Brainstorm
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Meddling Mage
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
SB:
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
3 Arcane Lab


Corndog > You give some valid arguments about the limitations of the ability of the Wayfarer. But for this deck I am comparing its ability to Flying Men. And because I think Flying Men's ability is virtually worthless (see below), I still hold the Wayfarer in much more esteem. 

I disagree with Nantuko Rice 's statement that this deck has a good matchup against aggro: your creatures are small and completely horrible in combat. You may be able to take out Workshop Agrro on the basis of 4 Plow/4 Seal, but random aggro (like sligh) is a very bad matchup.

(also as an answer to Corndog 's post) If I expect a lot of match ups in which the Flying of the Flying man would matter, I would not play this deck. If I expect to really need the Plow's main, I would not play this deck. I think this deck is best in a combo/control heavy metagame. If I expect a lot of aggro or Oath I would pick something else.

In short, I think this is really a metagame deck, not an all-around solution.

[Zeylon]

Strengths:

Under Standstill, can search out Mishra's Factories.

A one drop that can thus facilitate a second turn Ninja of Deep Shadows.

Can tutor up Wastelands to make sure your opponent can never go above 1 land early game, or 2 lands mid game (all the lands that Fish ever needs). Great in conjunction with Null Rod to mana screw players.

Can search out Factories against Aggro.

I don't see how this isn't superior to Stifle. It comes with a 1/1 body, doesn't have to be used at any specific time, and can kill mutiple lands, not just 1.

Other options in it's slot include...
Icatian Javenleers (only useful in about half the games you play, the same reason I advocate cutting Stifle).

Mother of Runes (1 or 2 copies can serve to protect your MM lock, and let Ninjas get past an blocker to draw you cards, can even get curious flyers past Akormas to draw cards)

Cloud Sprite - Pretty much just as good as Flying Men. Work great with Ninjas, Standstill, Curiosity since can be dropped 1st turn.

The problem with stifle is that you have to leave blue mana open, and pray the opponent has a fetchland in hand that they want to break. Else, it's dead (or only a weak delay tactic) against 80% of the decks out there.

For reference, here's the Null Rod Fish list I run (I have a non Null Rod fish build as well that I love too)...

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Cloud Sprite
4 Meddling Mage
4 Flying Men
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Curiosity
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Island

SB:
1 Null Rod
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seasinger
2 Orim's Chant
2 Arcane Lab
2 Energy Flux
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Meta choices

[Nefarias]

I haven't playtested it, but it seems to me that the addition of this guy steers the deck into a completely different direction, no? Having to pay for his ability really sacrifices the tempo that this deck. The two drop is almost always the most important one for Fish, and if you activate this guy on turn two, you stall that plan. If you do the Waste chain, then you aren't applying any pressure (damage wise) until like turn five or six at the earliest, when you can finally start laying beats. Also, if the application is mainly for Wastes, doesn't CoW do the same thing? Sure, it costs a good deal more, but if you consider that you're paying each time you activate, it comes out to be a lot cheaper. Also, the Wayfarer can take up turns 1-5, whereas CoW only eats up turn 3.

He's very synergistic with the cards in the deck, I'm just not sure he has the same synergy with the strategy of the deck. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, I'm just wondering if you have found that this plays much differently from more standard fish. Do you adopt a different gameplan?

[forests failed you]

You also need to keep in mind that you can only activate Weathered Wayfarer's ability if you control more lands than your opponent.  This doesn't seem like it has amazing synergy in a deck that is trying to destroy its opponent's lands.

[mrieff]

I haven't playtested it, but it seems to me that the addition of this guy steers the deck into a completely different direction, no? Having to pay for his ability really sacrifices the tempo that this deck. The two drop is almost always the most important one for Fish, and if you activate this guy on turn two, you stall that plan. If you do the Waste chain, then you aren't applying any pressure (damage wise) until like turn five or six at the earliest, when you can finally start laying beats. Also, if the application is mainly for Wastes, doesn't CoW do the same thing? Sure, it costs a good deal more, but if you consider that you're paying each time you activate, it comes out to be a lot cheaper. Also, the Wayfarer can take up turns 1-5, whereas CoW only eats up turn 3.

He's very synergistic with the cards in the deck, I'm just not sure he has the same synergy with the strategy of the deck. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, I'm just wondering if you have found that this plays much differently from more standard fish. Do you adopt a different gameplan?

Indeed, you'r not doing anywthing on turn 2 untill turn X other then wasting. But neither is your opponent.
And you're getting a card a turn extra (searching for land) so the stand off is in your advantage. And only when your opponent doesn't have a second land drop anymore, then you can't activate the Wayfarer anymore and start to play out like a normal fish deck against a mana screwed opponent.

Certainly, this doesn't work all the time, for instance when your opponent has drawn 2/3 moxes or does Lotus and Tinker, or whatever broken play. And we can all think of many other situations where the Wayfarer won't win.

But fact is, this guy CAN win games single handingly. "Flying" as in Flying Men cannot. And if you would test it, I think you would find out that he does it more often than you would think.

You also need to keep in mind that you can only activate Weathered Wayfarer's ability if you control more lands than your opponent.  This doesn't seem like it has amazing synergy in a deck that is trying to destroy its opponent's lands.

True, but running 7 fetches and 5 wastes and performing the trick I explained my first post helps a lot. And don't forget that this deck can function fine with 2 lands, and even has a game with only 1. Most other decks can't.

[forests failed you]

Right, right.  I understand the trick, but still it is a major drawback to the card that makes it situational at best.  I could see it being a good sideboard card against decks like 4cc, but for the rest of the decks that Wasteland is strong against I think that he would be a little bit slow.  I don't think that it is terrible, I just think that there may be better options available to you in the one drop slot.  Even Stifle would probably be better at buying you tempo against fetch lands.

[Zeylon]

I don't understand your logic. Stifle is WAY more conditional than this card.

This comes on a 1/1 body so it's never dead. Against top decks, what creatures do you have to worry about that may block?

Against those rare few aggro decks, you can use it to get mishra's factories as 3/3 blockers or 4/4 blockers (if you get 2).

Ignoring it's ability, a 1/1 1st turn is still great with curiosity, ninja, standstill etc.

But it's ability can often be used, esp. under standstill to get either factories or to kill lands.

Stifle absolutely sucks by comparison now that the best combo decks are no longer tendrils based anyways.

[mrieff]

Right, right.  I understand the trick, but still it is a major drawback to the card that makes it situational at best.  I could see it being a good sideboard card against decks like 4cc, but for the rest of the decks that Wasteland is strong against I think that he would be a little bit slow.  I don't think that it is terrible, I just think that there may be better options available to you in the one drop slot.  Even Stifle would probably be better at buying you tempo against fetch lands.

Basically what forcefieldyou said.
Also, keep in mind that we're comparing this with its alternative. Its alternative can't be stifle, but has to be another 1 drop (Flying Men most likely)

[Tijnie]

Stifle is goood against fetchies to screw your oppoent. But there's a reason why stifle is more counterlike. There are more situations in wich stifle is handy then just screwing a fetch. It can stop other wastelands but als alot of other usefull ability's. Welders, Oath (just for one turn but i helps), Titans/slavers and al sorts of things. Hell if there's a sloppy stormplayer you might just screw there kill completely. That make's stifle more usefull in other "random"matches.
Also for combo stifling a fetch is better then destroying the land that comes into play since he'll tap it anyway and might just go off. Last small detail, stifle is a blue card.

Yes you're right, in some matchups your wayfareer is better. And yes it has some synergy with fish, but sitting there and waiting for your opponent to get manascrew isn't fishlike. Most your keyspells ae 2 mana and are really great when cast turn two. you don't wanna waist then hoping you oppoentn gets screwed. And like said, you're entire gameplan might be screwed by people keeping fetchies in play (like most decks with non-basics will do).

when i play, i play stifle. The cearurebase looks fine the way it is to support the deck and Ninja's are kwel =).

Greetz, Tijnie

[Zeylon]

I've played stifle. Stopping welder or Oath for one turn means jack a lot of games. Yes, sometimes, delaying them for one turn is okay. But I would much much rather play more counters or swords or something thats relevant in all matches and actually significantly improves your position rather than something like stifle thats really only worthwhile against a bad tendrils player or against fetchlands.

wayfarer isn't taking stifles spot. stifles spot is being taken by swords, or daze, or misD, even disruption shoal is less conditional with all the one drops and two drops you play.

wayfarer is subbing in for javenleers which by WuTang's own admission were pretty much worthless the whole tournament. by playing wayfarer, you can run more swords, and they kill welders just as well.

fish has no problem sitting around killing all your opponents lands esp considering that it's buying you card advantage each time you use it.

I LOVE games where you lay down a wayfarer turn one, counter any relevent one drops (there aren't many), and just sit around on turn two onwards just killing land after land until the opponent is mana screwed and you drew a couple of extra cards. That's buying tempo in every sense of the word. I didn't even go into wayfarer's usefulness at fetching LoA, or factories under standstill or when you're threat low or it's synergy with ninja.

In short, I think wayfarer is an auto include in most every UW fish build.

[amidtownrocker]

I must agree with Zeylon on the auto-included of Wayfarer in U/W Fish.

I recently played in SCG: Richmond and in the tournament I piloted a U/W Fish deck to a 5-2 record and 14th over all, with my only losses coming to the eventual champion and the eventual runner-up. On more than one occasion throughout the tournament the Wayfarer was able to fetch out enough wastes to slow down my opponent tremendiously. I can remember one specefic situation agasint the FCG player. I opened with Tundra, Wayfarer he resolved a turn two recruiter and procedeed to stack 9 or so goblins while i was sitting there with an active Wayfarer and a Waste in play. On my turn I waste his Taiga and respond with a Wayfarer activation while i have 1 land to his two. I fetch out the Stripmine, strip his mountain. He is left with no land and has about 9 goblins stacked on top. I go on to win that game. This wasn't the only time Wayfarer won me a game. Against a U/R Fish deck, he let my Wayfarer get active which i proceded to activate 6 times to fetch out 4 wastes and 2 factories. I win this one also. If you notice my sideboard as well, I boarded one Maze of Ith. 1st round, I am against TPS and we go to a game 3, Null Rod shuts him down early but he manages to get a Tendrils off for 16, and my slow beats comence. I get some M. Mages down on key cards such as Dark Rit and his bounce. The turn before my men go lethal he top decks a tinker. he tinkers out Collusus, I am at 1 from a fetch and two Forces. He just needs one swing with his Collusus to win. One my turn I pull out my tech card and Wayfarer out the Maze of Ith and slam it down. He is heartbroken as a Spiketail Hatchling procedes to deal the final 6 points of damage in the air. These were just the few games I can recall that Wayfarer won me a game by himself. Other games he got me the Stripmine, or an extra Waste, which helped me out immensely in the long run. Everytime I play a game with him, my value of him just goes up.

The thing I must point out is that with Wayfarers, the deck must be played entirely different. In retrospect the only thing I would change about my build would be more Wayfarer and Rootwater Theif.

I hope these limited results help the argument for Wayfarer.

[urza_insane]

It's very cool that you made this post as I have been messing around with a fish build that includes 4x Weathered Wayfarer!  It was after Wu-Tang won and I got re-interested in the deck. Granted, the deck is built for Legacy (Playing multiple enlightened tutor) but even so, it has shown me the insane power of Wayfarer.

I will also through in my vote for Wayfarer, it will be in all my future builds of u/w fish unless something huge changes. I am never sad to see a first turn wayfarer, as it often means I'll be winning the game unless my opponent can deal with it quickly. Something that has come up in my testing is what other lands (as 1-ofs) might be good with wayfarer there to tutor them up? I have actually been playing with Kjeldoran's Outpost lately (awesome jank), which works awesome in my Jitte version of the deck and offers a very strong late game card to work with. It sometimes sucks seeing it early, as it costs A LOT of tempo/resources, but as a 1-of it's usually not too bad. Other cards worth a look are random man-lands such as Conclave or Blinkmoth. Being able to tutor up extra fliers is always a good thing. The Odyssey sac lands also offer an interesting possibility in a Crucible version of fish, something I took advantage of in a TurboLand build I was playing awhile back.

Last is the option of Kor-Haven over Maze of Ith. Paying 1w a turn to protect youself is not something you ever want to do early game, but the fact that it taps for mana if you draw it and don't need it is a plus. On a more important note is the fact that you can still block it (with no damage to worry about) and that the attacking creature remains tapped. In DSC case, this can mean an extra 2 damage or more a turn (if you were holding mages back). Any ideas on this?