Sixty First Card Discussion

[xrobx]

Yep..and it's a good thing that DCI made it so that decklists can be viewed for top 8 in sanctioned events before the matchups begin.

[Khahan]

  If one of these is the 61 first card you've increased the likelyhood of finding one of the tools in your box during a game right?  I think that as long as the deck is proportionally effective you can't discount the 61st card being added to certain decks.   

Here's where people are missing the point of the 61st card debate.  They are using  a bit of a false analogy.  The reality is, while numerically, the last card added is the 61st card, in terms of card strength this is not so.
In discussion about 60 cards vs 61 cards, you've got to look at the relative strength, value and contribution of each card in the deck. Not just at what order you decided to count the cards up.

So, we have this theoretical deck of 60 cards. The cards are A1-A10, B1-B10, C1-C10, D1-D10, E1-E10 and F1-F10.   The closer to the beginning of the alphabet a card is, the stronger it is. Within the letter groups, the lower the number, the stronger it is. So A1 is the strongest. F10 is the weakest.  A9 is stronger than B1.

Now, you come across card A-11. You add it into the deck and suddenly have 60 cards.   Is that your 61st card?  No. E10 is your 61st card now. Its still the weakest.

You don't throw in card A11 and say, "Hey, A11 is so powerful that its pros outweigh the cons of running 61 cards."  You look at it and say, "Ok, I want to add A11 because it can help this deck.  Now, is the value of E10 strong enough that the pros of keeping it in the deck outweigh the cons of keeping it in the deck?"


Obviously deck building is not that cut and dry that you can pigeonhole every slot in the deck to determine a cards relative strength so easily.  But it does illustrate the point that adding a 61st card is not necessarily adding a 61st card. It is more along the lines of further tuning your deck.

[The Hamburgler]

Though I may be out of place here, preferring to play Type Two and go pro via sanctioned events, I do have some cents to add. The sixty-first card is not math dependant. No great magic players have ever been a math stickler, they are just good players. I think that in Shortbus's Gifts Ungiven deck 61 cards is very acceptable. The reason behind this is it has a lot of tutor effects to get all the busted card anyways. Even in combo orientated decks like Deathlong, 61 cards isn't terrible, as you have a lot of tutors. However, the deck is also very draw-dependant, so it is probably a bad idea. In aggro decks, you shouldn't need to go 61 as there aren't enough broken cards to put in the deck anyways, and the same goes for aggro-control (like fish). In Intuition-based combo decks (I'm sorry if these are not apparent in the format) or even in Team CAB's Gifts deck (sorry if this is outdated) 61 cards is alright, as you want to fit utility into the deck with bombs to match. One last thing, if the sixty-first card is a Cunning Wish, it adds a completely new angle to control decks (and burning Wish for combo decks).

If I am wrong, reconcile me, but it was just logical thoughts/
-.o2

[xrobx]

Adding a cunning wish basically means you're adding a reactive spell and not a win condition.  The only case where this wouldn't apply is if you're using the instant as a win condition, which is pretty much irrelevant in type 1.  The options for that said card are probably very limited (ie. brain freeze, urza's, etc etc...) which basically brings it down to the point of the card you search for in your RFG/sideboard is going to be a reactive spell, that deals with shit that shouldn't be there in the first place (ie. chain of vapor, hurkyl's recall, echoeing truth, etc.).

Adding a burning wish does open up further options, as the ability to cast tendrils is very important in combo decks.  However, I'm not sure that the addition of the burning wish -> tendrils outweighs, as khahan said it, the worst card in the deck, and could this worse card simply just be cut for burning wish in the first place? This is a tough topic to discuss because there are so many angles to take at it.

As mentioned, the pros should be discussed of the addition of the 61st card, and decklists should be used.  Many times it is simpler to just cutback a card for another card, and I still believe at this point there are not enough cards that must be included in decks for there to be no room for 60 cards.  That is to say, that until there are 60 broken, restricted, synergistic cards that must go hand and hand, the 61st card still seems irrelevant in combo-esq decks.  I'm not sure this remains true for control decks...?