Zvi to speak on Vintage

[Dozer]

From Zvi's article on SCG from May 16:

At this point, I'm going to call my two set-block coverage to a close. I fully intend to return to the subject after the Saviors review, but right now I'm moving on to talk about Vintage. [Yes, he said talk about Vintage. Details of that will be forthcoming early next week. - Knut] Hopefully my time will be limited and I won't ruin too much of everyone's fun.

I did not find this mentioned anywhere on the boards yet, so I'll just post it here. (Appearently you folks don't read Kamigawa Block Constructed articles...) I for one am looking forward to what Zvi has to say -- a lot. I wonder if he is up to date on the Vintage scene, and what he will do: post a new deck? analyze the format? applaud or chide the community? Exciting!

I have no idea what he means with that last sentence, though, but we will see.

Dozer

[Methuselahn]

Zvi has already contacted members from Team Meandeck, Shortbus, and Reflection giving the impression that he has no clue regarding the format.  It's actually quite funny the way some people think they can just ask all the major teams to just give up tech, test with them, and offer nothing in return. 

Zvi coming up with a spectacular list of his own doing, with no previous experience in the format at all would be a miracle.  I really doubt that Zvi would have anything to contribute any time soon.  Or ever, for that matter, as I doubt he has any interest in the format outside of SCG paying for and supporting him for their Vintage P9 events for their own justified self-promotion.

Applaud the Vintage community? (and TMD)  Not bloody likely, at least from the things I have heard second hand.

[Luiggi]

I think you're being a bit unfair in your assessment of Zvi, Methuselahn... Yes, he gets paid to write premium articles for StarCity, but then again so do people like Carl and Steve, so that's something that really shouldn't factor into the equation. With all the good Vintage writing that there is on StarCity I really don't think they needed to force Zvi into writing something about the format unless he was interested in it for x or y reason. I'm sure part of the reason he contacted the big Vintage teams comes from a desire to educate himself about the format before playing in one of the StarCity tournaments (I seem to recall him being named as one of the pros that would be participating). Sure, maybe it was a bit naive of him to assume that they'd be willing to hand over tech, but you can't blame a guy for trying.

To presume that someone of Zvi's caliber won't be able to contribute anything positive to Vintage discussion seems a bit harsh (and pessimistic) to me, especially given his stellar track-record with Constructed formats. I wouldn't rank him up there with the great Vintage minds, but certainly with the great Magic minds, and as such I think it's important to hear what the guy has to say. That what he writes is something to be approached with caution? Sure. That what he writes is something to be approached with an open mind? Absolutely.

Just my two cents.

Luiggi

[Matt]

Actually, I think we can blame him for trying. Get your own damn tech. If all he wants is an overview of the format, he can read TMD like everybody else. And anyway, if he gets help from Team X and then wins it's just going to undermine the whole point of having pro players compete by engendering cries of "Zvi didn't really win, Team X did!"

The reason Methu's reacting so harshly is because Zvi has spoken publicly about how terrible Type One players are. According to some, he's denigrated the entire format pretty harshly. True or not, I don't expect a guy like that to be giving anything back, much less enough to balance out the huge advantage having access to ALL of the top team's tech would give him.

To put it in nerd-terminology, does anyone remember that Transformers episode where Megatron borrowed all the Decepticons' powers and whomped Prime in a duel? This smells just like that. It seems pretty obvious to me that he just wants to pick everyone's brains and give nothing back.

[Luiggi]

Well, in my defense I'd never read/heard those comments that he made. I guess that I, not being part of a team, was putting more emphasis on the decks getting better, rather than on who was making those improvements or who should get the credit, but I certainly understand where you guys are coming from. I know I'll still read what he has to say, though I do look forward to him being paired against a top Vintage player at the StarCity tournament and getting whupped, .

Luiggi

[Machinus]

To put it in nerd-terminology, does anyone remember that Transformers episode where Megatron borrowed all the Decepticons' powers and whomped Prime in a duel? This smells just like that. It seems pretty obvious to me that he just wants to pick everyone's brains and give nothing back.

This is the kind of thing that makes the format unpopular. People will be exposed to "Type 1" - which means reading about the collaboration between a pro player and a superteam - and then realize that they can never get either the tech or the moxes to play. If people start to dismiss type 1 on starcity, where else is there to go?

[Matt]

(I'm not quite sure what part of that you're responding to, but in case you're not arguing what I think you are, please ignore this post)

I don't follow that at all. In what sense is it harder to get the latest type one tech than the latest type two or standard tech? If anything it is much, much harder to get tech for the popular formats, yet they remain popular.

Imagine the situation were reversed - in fact I do not know anything about drafting Kamiagawa block - I have only a vague idea of the popular archetypes, and only a rough knowledge of the cardpool. Imagine I wanted to start playing this format, and so I headed straight to Nick Eisel's house and asked, "Hey, be a sport and give me your pick orders?" I'd be laughed out of town, and rightly so.

It's not at all hard to get T1 tech. You have three options: wait for the tech to win a tournament then look at the decklists, read premium articles, or make it up yourself/join a team of people inventing their own tech. These are exactly the same options ANY format offers (and what's more it's a lot easier to get on a team in our format).

[Machinus]

It's not at all hard to get T1 tech. You have three options: wait for the tech to win a tournament then look at the decklists, read premium articles, or make it up yourself/join a team of people inventing their own tech. These are exactly the same options ANY format offers (and what's more it's a lot easier to get on a team in our format).

Well, thats kind of changing Matt. Type 1 used to be like this, but we have regular tournaments now. It used to be that the only thing worth saving for was Gencon, but with waterbury and starcity growing to such huge numbers, there is a regular cycle of tech and development. Meandeck has used this understanding to place highly in lots of tournaments. "Tech" is breaking new cards, but it is also about using them at the right time. Oath + Orchard was obvious, right? I was using it for months before I read the meandeck list. But I never chose the hasted flyers, and I have to admit that that changes the whole deck style. Meandeck uses one aspect of the metagame that any player can use, and that is surprise factor. The difference is that on a big team like that, you can prepare for a wider range of decks, and sometimes even tech that other people don't know about yet.

What I was trying to say in my post is that if people hear about what Type 1 is like from a source they "know" and "trust" - like a veteran american PT player - they will think that they know everything there is to know about the format. In this case, they will have to see that the entry barrier and the depth of the card pool make it a much much different experience from Type 2, and it has been my experience that new(er) players vastly prefer smaller cheaper formats.

[Lou]

I think that it will more than likely bring more people to the format.  No doubt Zvi is one of the most popular writers on Star City, which is no doubt the most popular Magic website as a whole.  Making more decks readilly accessable with ten proxy events, and then having your top writers discuss Type One is pretty transparent if you ask me.  But I think it is good all in all, as more people will play.

[jpmeyer]

Aaaaaaanyway, here's the deal:

As everyone knows, there are going to be a bunch of pros playing at SCG Rochester next month.  What people didn't know until today was that the pros that will be playing are also supposed to be writing articles about what they did to prepare, which decks they tried out, their thought processes, and so on.  Hence, they need testing partners.

[jcb193]

I hate to say it, but it's hard for me to believe that "T1 tech" is strong enough to offset the difference between a professional Magic player and a "professional T1 player."  I don't think it would be that hard for someone who has spent years perfecting their Magic game and competed on the highest level to be successful in our format.  If they take it seriously there is no reason for them not to finish very highly. 

And before you flame me out of existence for believing that "most T1 players are shit" (in comparison to a Magic pro), understand that this is all a catch-22.  If they suck and end up losing, they'll just say it's a lucksack format anyway!

JB

[JoshR]

Why is everyone so worried about Zvi?

He's discussed in a bunch of places, but I haven't seen a single mention of anyone else.

[Matt]

Hence, they need testing partners.

The whole point is to set up a "pro tour vs. type one teams" competition, and this request totally undermines that. If he wants testing partners, he should ask his fellow pros and not ruin the spirit of the gimmick.

Meandeck uses one aspect of the metagame that any player can use, and that is surprise factor. The difference is that on a big team like that, you can prepare for a wider range of decks, and sometimes even tech that other people don't know about yet.

And yet...how is this any different from type two and extended, and even limited? The top teams there do the exact same thing, and sometimes dirtier tactics - like leaking FCG before PT New Orleans (aka PT Tinker). In EVERY competitive format, you gain an advantage from being on a team, and in every competetive format, surprise tech wins. I don't see how acting like the more established formats  is somehow going to hurt this format's reputation.

[Demonic Attorney]

Exactly.  This goes completely against the spirit of the competition.  Both the Pros and the Vintage players should stand or fall on their own abilities. 

[CCClark]

Well, type 2's  (standard) "good" players tend to play according to the decks in the feild.  Standard has only so much you can do with the card choices available so it falls into severe metagaming choices.   In type 1 that is very hard to do as one single random card you weren't thinking about can ruin your day on total accident.  Ever been hit by a random Extract or 1st turn cursed rack?   There are too many cards too try and think about so you have to decide what your opponent is playing and take out the main threats of what makes the deck work.   Very unlike Standard.  

Anyway, that is pretty cheesy if the guy did bash type 1 players then ask about the format to a good team later on.   I don't care how good of a player or if he won this or that, that's just rude.    

Is it just me or are type 1 players nicer anyway.  I used to play that junk but got tired of everyone acting like their life depended on it.  Reminds me of a win I saw where one guy won because the other didn't target lands with his Time Spiral and started to uptap first, then lost because of that.  The judge made him leave them tapped.    


Oh and Dozer has the coolest avatar ever.  

[ReAnimator]

Well we sure as hell aren't worried about you Josh   *Zing!*

In all seriousness people should be worried about the pros, Josh here top 16ed at syracuse never having played T1 before and running a terrible list of Drain Slaver.  

Steve Wolfman  (the guy who just got to the top 4 of the pro tour 2 weeks ago)  is a pro who also top 16ed syracuse and he plays A LOT of T1 he wins or gets to the top 4 of almost every T1 in this city and has won a lot of power over the last 6 months he is a better player than 99.9999%  of the players who are going to show up to this and he isn't even on the list of "pros" who are going to be there.

Even if they dont have access to the best tech (and some of them do) these guy's (pro's in general) are better players than 99% of the players who show up at these events. Play skill alone can take you really far even if you just have a decent but not great deck. To think that some of these guys aren't going to do well because they dont play the format is just arrogence. 

I would also want some solid proff that Zvi said that before i started bashing him all over the board, even if he didn't say that i would still have to agree, 90% of the t1 players i meet and play against are awful and these people make it in to top 8's , yes there are really good t1 players but the general skill level at a T1 event compared to a large PTQ is quite low, a lot of t1 players are really lazy and just play what they like and take the game a lot less seriously than most other magic competitve players not that thats a bad thing thats why i love this format is because the people are way more laid back but because of this are less competitive.

[JoshR]

Well we sure as hell aren't worried about you Josh   *Zing!*

Steve Wolfman  (the guy who just got to the top 4 of the pro tour 2 weeks ago)  is a pro who also top 16ed syracuse and he plays A LOT of T1 he wins or gets to the top 4 of almost every T1 in this city and has won a lot of power over the last 6 months he is a better player than 99.9999%  of the players who are going to show up to this and he isn't even on the list of "pros" who are going to be there.

I should be the least of your worries.*

Also, I'm pretty sure that Steve was added to the list of SHOOTING STARS a couple of weeks ago.




*Technically, Ben Bleiweiss should probably be the least of your worries.  I should be the second least of your worries.  Zvi's (almost) certainly down there somewhere with us.

[Lord of the Goats]

plus, pro players will snag a lot of wins just because of who they are. it takes a lot of composure to not freak out about playing a pro.

that said, they're all wankers. andy stoke brought adam horvath (member of team togit) to game masters for a lotus tourney. horvath was playing hulk because it was obviously the best deck at type 1 takes no skil. he lost to me playing dragon/madness (a deck that i took because it was bad)  because he had no idea how to play against it. he lost to the mirror because he brought in extra removal (smother) rather than good cards. when he was told that it was better not to bring in removal because it's dead for most of the game he was a complete prick about it. of course everyone laughed at him.

if the pros put in the work to actually know what's going on they'll do very welll.... however my experience has been that they all hate type 1 and think it's an easy format.. so they won't put in the work.

[Freelancer]

if the pros put in the work to actually know what's going on they'll do very welll.... however my experience has been that they all hate type 1 and think it's an easy format.. so they won't put in the work.

Well if they end up scrubbing out I will be laughing at them. Even a minimal understanding of most matches should be enough to at least not scrub out.

While I highly doubt they will scrub out (for the reasons mentioned above) I do hope they actually learn something from this experience, and maybe not mock vintage anymore.



Ps. I wish everyone that is going a great time, and may the pro's experience the greatness of vintage.

[JoshR]

ridiculous generalizations/thinly veiled bragging about the time he beat a PRO.

Yes, some pros may be helped by their opponents being nervous.  Chances are they'd be winning those games even if their scaredycat opponent was playing his A-game.

Congratulations on beating Adam Horvath once.  Adam isn't an accurate representation of what most other PROS/humans are like.

As for most pros "hating type 1," my experience has been that pros just like playing any kind of Magic (I've talked to a bunch of people who will be "Shooting Stars" and they all seem quite excited about playing T1), but you probably know a lot more pros then I do so I'll defer to your greater experience.

Also, I'm glad you didn't feel the need to stoop to name-calling at any point.  You're a classy guy.


Keep up the good work.

[The Atog Lord]

that said, they're all wankers...they all hate type 1 and think it's an easy format.. so they won't put in the work.

Gee, thanks a ton.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Or, instead of whining and moaning about hearsay or isolated incidents of past rudeness, Type One players could see this as an opportunity to test their mettle against the best Magic players in the WORLD. I mean, we're minus a Finkel and a Budde, but Zvi is not far behind that level, and neither is Osyp. This is an opportunity, not a time for hand-wringing and complaining about how we don't get enough respect.

It's up to the teams being contacted how they want to interact with the Pros who come to them, and I think it will be a beneficial exercise either way. I'm betting Zvi is making a real effort (remember he's not playing PTs anymore, just writing and testing, so he has all the incentive in the world to try), and will come out of it either blowing us all away or being impressed with the competition. Either way: welcome them!

[Nova442]

It really is up to the teams to decide how much to collaborate with the pros, but if they want their best chance to win they won't talk to them at all :p  Their main advantages are their newly discovered tech and intimate knowledge of deck X vs. deck Y matchups.  Like that one Pro tournament where a team discovered that you shouldn't counter card draw in the control (tog) mirror.  Some of the little tricks are advantages that would be wasted if the vintage teams let the pros test with them.

Don't let them take your knowledge and THEIR playskill to the top!  Work together to restrict dark ritual and mana drain AFTER you crush them at the SCG tournament

[Dralock]

Ps. I wish everyone that is going a great time, and may the pro's experience the greatness of vintage.

I'll go one better than that. I hope this whole crazy thing does the same thing as celebrity golf...Gets more people interested in Vintage. We have some good tournaments, but having a national vintage scene would be pretty decent, instead of magic tournaments being relegated to obscurity outside the NE and California.