EBA in competitive Vintage

[Luiggi]

Given the general lack of interest in the closed forum, and since a few people messaged me about the deck, I figured I'd open this topic here as well, to see if anyone has any input/comments.

Hi everyone! This is my first post as a newly-promoted member of TMD, and my goal is to examine why EBA (“Eon Blue Apocalypse” [though I never really understood why the deck was named after a Tool song, but I digress]) has all the tools necessary to be successful in the current wide-open Vintage metagame.

First, here is the decklist I’ve been toying with:

The Creatures:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Ophidian
3 Phyrexian Negator
2 Exalted Angel

Disruption:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Duress

Removal:
3 Swords to Plowshares

Utility:
4 Brainstorm

Broken:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor

The Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
2 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Island

It is essentially the list that Cody Vinci used at StarCity Richmond, with a few changes. I decided that Impulse, while an excellent card, just wasn’t cutting it in this build, so after discussing it with my friend Elias (SonataoftheCathedral) we decided to put Ophidians into the deck to replace them, with the slot freed up by the 4th Impulse becoming the 4th Tundra (I sometimes found myself having a hard time flipping Exalted Angels).

Some people advocate running Vindicate in this deck, just like its originator deck, Extended “Dump Truck”. Yes it’s versatile, but it’s also a sorcery and requires mana of two different colors. I really don’t like it in the Vintage version of this deck.

Here’s why I think EBA can do very well in the current metagame:

1) It has an incredibly strong disruption package: Duress, Mana Drain and Force of Will, complemented by Meddling Mage and Mind Twist, can make for some very bad times for your opponent, . Add to this the possibility of running a few maindeck Stifles à la Fish or Birdshit and you can really stop your opponent from whatever game he’s trying to play. I’d love to be able to fit some Strip effects in there, but with a 3 color mana base it’s a bit of a squeeze. I can definitely see running a Strip Mine in there, and possibly a Library of Alexandria. Post-SB our disruption gets even better, but I’ll go into that later.

2) It has very fast clocks (for a creature deck): there’s no doubt that EBA’s clocks are faster than Fish’s, since a Negator or Exalted Angel can end the game in just a few attacks, as opposed to the eons Fish/Birdshit can take to win with their Factories, Cloud of Faeries and Nimble Mongeese. Exalted Angel even has the benefit of making us that much harder for TPS and other Tendrils-based decks to beat, with one swing often being enough.

3) It’s good vs. aggro decks: Swords to Plowshares, Exalted Angels and even Ophidians are all good in the aggro matchup, and this deck is capable of running Balance to really ruin their day. Granted, Negators are horrible vs. something like Burninator (and given TheDeadMan’s recent top-16 at Waterbury it’s likely that more budget players will give that deck a try), but that’s why we have Exalted Angels.

4) Excellent and versatile SB options: we can run any number of annoying cards, including Arcane Lab, Null Rod, Tormod’s Crypt, Stifle, Energy Flux, Rushing River, Sacred Ground, Seal of Cleansing, etc. The one problem is that we don’t have access to all of Red’s great SB cards for the Control-Slaver and SSB matchups (Rack and Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, etc.), but are they really necessary? I’ve not been able to test the Control-Slaver matchup as much as I would’ve hoped, but with disruption-heavy draws it’s not a bad matchup at all, especially if we resolve a Meddling Mage on Goblin Welder. I’ve not been able to test the SSB matchup at all, but I imagine it would work similarly to the CS one, except that they are less vulnerable to a quick Meddling Mage.

I also think the deck has some weaknesses that need to be addressed:

1) Lack of a broken draw-engine: this is the deck’s main problem, as I see it. Other decks have great ways of drawing a lot of cards, whether it’s Thirst For Knowledge, Intuition/AK, Deep Analysis or otherwise. We have Ophidians, Ancestral Recall and Fact or Fiction (with the Mystical Tutor to fetch them), but that’s about it. Ophidian can sometimes be excellent, but can be pretty bad other times.

What’s the best draw-engine that could make its way into the deck? AKs are definitely out of the question, since they require Intuitions to be truly good, and that would take up way to many slots. Deep Analysis is an option, since it is reusable and gives us more Drain sinks. The downside is that it’s a sorcery. Thirst For Knowledge really wouldn’t work in this deck, since we have only 4 artifacts, and that would lead to way too many 2-card discards. Do we have any other decent options in this department? Skeletal Scrying is certainly a good card, but it's not particularly good in the early game, which makes me resitant to run it. If I'm way-off in my assessment of Scrying please let me know.

2) Relatively poor Yawgmoth’s Wills: in this deck, perhaps more than any other powered Vintage deck running Black, Yawgmoth’s Will does not usually equal “YawgWin”. Sure, it can, but it’s not that often, just because the deck still relies on creature beatdown to finish an opponent off, and not chaining spells into a Tendrils or getting off a Slaver activation.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of the deck, it’s hard to make our Wills all of a sudden become better, so I’m not quite sure how to address this problem other than simply accepting it and moving on. Cutting Will is an option, but I’m very reluctant to even try this out, since the card is just so damned good, .

3) The mana base: the most notorious problem the deck can have it not having access to double-White mana to flip over Exalted Angels. It’s not like it happens every time, but if earlier in the game I used a fetchland to grab a Tundra and another to grab an Underground Sea, unless I have my Mox Pearl that flipped Angel is just making baby Jesus cry, .

The easiest way to eliminate this last problem is cutting the Angels altogether, and I can see them being replaced with something like Decree of Justice, that is another good Mana Drain sink. What are people’s thoughts on simply replacing Angels with Decrees? Since aggro has really begun to disappear a very strong case can be made, I think.

As a final note I can also imagine a more controlling version of the deck, probably cutting the Negators and adding more Angels and Ophidians, dropping Duress for something like a Cunning Wish or two, and possibly running Decree of Justice as well. While I’m open to suggestions of this kind, I’m more interested in discussing a version like what I posted because of its added aggressiveness and disruption, which makes it better vs. combo and control, though perhaps slightly weaker vs. aggro decks (again, I’m not sure how much of a problem that really is, at the moment).

I’d appreciate any kind of criticism on the maindeck, thought on matchups and such that anyone would like to share, and I look forward to becoming a part of the ongoing discussions in this forum.

So there it is. Let me know what you is right/wrong about the deck, what you think should change, etc.

Luiggi

[Freelancer]

The first thing I noticed was that you run ophidian over shadowmage infiltrator, is this to prevent mana problems or is the infiltrators shadow (and damage dealing) not enough to warrant a slot?
I just realized that a ophidian can also serve as a mana drain sink, although still dealing damage (while drawing a card) and shadow come up fairly often.


As for the draw engine;
This is just a crazy idea, but what if you run sword of fire and ice and maybe some more early game critters. SoFI is a really solid card in any deck that can support it. Not to mention that combo needs two bounce spells to deal with one meddling mage. I have no idea if this could work though, the biggest problem is that most of your creatures are strong enough on there own to kill a opponent and you don't need a SoFI. (although a shadowmage infiltrator with a SoFI equipped is sexy as hell)

The card drawing engine is a of the wall idea, but it does increase your clock even more and it draws you quite a lot of cards. It does however mean changing the entire deck to fit it in.

[Luiggi]

Ophidian vs. Shadowmage Infiltrator: the deck's mana can sometimes crap out on you, like if you need double White to flip over an Angel. The Infiltrator, while strictly better than Ophi from an abilities point of view, has a much more complicated casting cost, and can sometimes be harder to manage. It's obviously not impossible, since we're running lots of duals and fetchlands to find them, but I wonder if it's worth subjecting ourselves to more potential mana problems... Plus Infiltrator is not as a good a Drain-sink, which is what's so good about Ophidian, as you mentioned.

Sword of Fire and Ice is definitely an idea, and I think if I were aiming for a more aggro build then it would be something worth considering. I could see doing something like this, if that's the direction we wanted to go in:

- 2 Exalted Angel
- 3 Sword to Plowshares
- 1 Mind Twist
- 1 Tundra

+ 3 Sword of Fire and Ice
+ 2 Serendib Efreet (or +1 Negator, +1 Ophi)
+ 1 Duress
+ 1 Underground Sea

I don't know that would actually be such a bad idea, since Swords are really good Drain-sinks, and we're adding creatures that are easier to cast. Negator/Serendib + Sword = very fast clock. Cutting out StP is something I'm not entirely sold on, and it might be best to leave 2 in the maindeck, but I figured I'd throw these changes out there. SoFaI still provides removal against things like Welders, so it's not like we don't have any removal... Plus we now have two draw engines, .

Thoughts?

Luiggi

[Freelancer]

If you are going the SoFI way than you should probably cut the ophidians because they have horrible synergy with it, preventing damage doesn't trigger SoFI. (Think shadowmage ........... -hint-)

I'm not entirely sure if cutting swords is a very good idea, they are one of the best reasons to run W (and meddling mage obviously).

How about:
-2 Exalted Angel
-1 Swords to plowshares
-1 Mind twist
-3 Ophidian

+2x Sword of fire and ice (sword is rarely good in multiples)
+2 Big critter
+3 Shadowmage infiltrator

Than adjust the manabase accordingly.

This will get you more draw and a faster kill at the cost of a little protection.

[Duncan]

Aren't you having problems with the ability of the Negator? Doesn't it screw your whole game if he gets damaged? It seems like you lose a lot of lands and your whole combo part is ruined.

[Luiggi]

@ Duncan: Negator is obviously pretty bad against a deck like Burninator that can throw lots of damage his way. If you're playing this type of deck then you're probably best off sacking the Negator the first time it gets bolted. Against the vast majority of Vintage decks, though, it's not much of a drawback, especially is he has a SoFaI equipped or you can remove blockers with Swords to Plowshares.

@ Freelancer: after thinking about it for a while after making my previous post I came to the same conclusion as you about the Swords to Plowshares, and 2 belong in the maindeck. 2 Sword of Fire and Ice also sounds like a good idea, since 3 is a bit excessive. I'm not really sure I want to cut the Ophidians, since they are our draw engine, along with SoFaI.

I was thinking about having the decklist like this:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Ophidian
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

1 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island

I cut the Angels, 1 StP and the Mind Twist, adding 2 SoFaI, 1 Negator and 1 Duress, though I could see adding something like 2 Serendib Efreets instead of the 4th Negator and Duress...

I was considering adding a Mana Crypt to the deck, since it lets you cast Ophidian, Negator or Sword of Fire and Ice on the first turn, but the problem is that if we're not in beatdown mode the damage it deals to us can start adding up, and we don't have Welders or Tinker to get rid of it... Am I right in this assessment, or would it worthwhile?

Luiggi

[Rex_Kwan_Do]

Please stop making EBA shittier and shittier. Without exalteds you are going to have an even more horrible fish matchup and a crappier control matchup.

[Sagath]

Please stop making EBA shittier and shittier. Without exalteds you are going to have an even more horrible fish match up and a crappier control match up.

Wow, thanks for that helpfull insight on the deck. I mean, your definitely progressing this discussion forward with all your intimate knowledge of the absolute right card choices and plays. Please share with us your obviously perfect EBA Build so we can all get on with our lives and place first at Starcity tournaments.

/sarcasm off.

I apologize for my return rant, and if I get a warning for it, well, it was worth it to put that junk in its place.

Looking over the list, your supporting 10 black cards in your list, yet you say that Shadowmages casting cost would be too prohibitive. I find this counter intuitive. Running 4 Duress would imply that within the turn 1/2 area your probably (read: most times) casting it, and would have black ready for Fink's. The blue is obviously prominent, and needs no explanation. And with Negators wanting to be powered out 1/2/3 turn at latest against control, you would also have the black ready for them, that I honestly cannot see how Shadowmages would be a problem to cast.

Negators currently in a powered meta can be handy, but I don't know if they really get beyond 'handy'. Its not going to push a clock on a deck like CAB/Slaver/Oath when they just drop a bigger fatty then 5/5 in play, or 'just win'. As much as I hate to say it and agree with the above poster (hey, at least I'm giving reasons, and discussing!), Negators definitely don't hold up against any creature based swarm deck (Bird Shit for example) either. It may be better if these slots were played out to your local meta with a different assortment of creatures, maybe Old men, Serindibs, or something else?

The mana crypt seems good in theory, but unless you mod the creature base to utilize it more effectively aggro based, I don't think it will pay off. It may warrent some testing?

I personally enjoy having a similar build of this deck that I play casually with people at my local shop against their 1.5 and extended decks. It definitely is a fun, and interactive deck, and even when I'm winning against a young punk, at least I know they are enjoying it too

[Luiggi]

Wow, thanks for that helpfull insight on the deck. I mean, your definitely progressing this discussion forward with all your intimate knowledge of the absolute right card choices and plays. Please share with us your obviously perfect EBA Build so we can all get on with our lives and place first at Starcity tournaments.

Hahaha, I couldn't have said it better myself!

A stronger point against the Infiltrators, I believe, is the fact that they're not a particularly good Mana Drain sink, that Ophidian is, just because it requires 2 colorless to cast, and Infiltrator only needs one. It's not necessarily a huge point, but it's a valid one, I feel.

As far as Negator being bad against creature based swarm decks: how many are there, really? Fish I can understand, but a 5/5 trampler is pretty good against Fish's dorks, especially the U/W version, since it doesn't run Lavamancers... Birdshit has sort of fallen off the map, so I'm not worrying about it, too much.

At any rate I do appreciate your comments/critiques, since you at least thought them out and backed them up, unlike some others, .

Luiggi

[nataz]

A stronger point against the Infiltrators, I believe, is the fact that they're not a particularly good Mana Drain sink, that Ophidian is, just because it requires 2 colorless to cast, and Infiltrator only needs one. It's not necessarily a huge point, but it's a valid one, I feel.

Id say that would be a major point. Phid will often cost U, where as Shadowmage will always cost at least UB. Not to mention fear isn't as amazing since mirrodin block.

[BillTheDuck]

“Eon Blue Apocalypse” [though I never really understood why the deck was named after a Tool song, but I digress

Because we liked Tool a lot at the time.

[Dralock]

I still like the angels as drain mana uses. They are a powerful force to be reconed with indeed. And I believe that they should be used over negators.

I know, I know, you like your negators. but going LESS black and MORE white can help you out a lot as far as tightening up the deck choices when it comes time to choose disruption. Or, if you want to keep a lot of black:

I see no reason to play black outside of duress, tutor and ywin. I do see, however, the need for a black creature to have something to do with the black you bring on to support 4 duress.

I know I'm going out on a limb here, but what about plaguespitter? They take care of juggs and welders and keep fish beat down. They have a great synergy with angels and you don't have to sac permanents. This of course will free you up early in the game to throw one of these guys down without having to worry about random lightning bolts taking out most of your board.

Trample is definately something hard to lose, but with mages, spitters and angels I think you will have a very well rounded deck. ESPECIALLY if you are going to include equipment.

Freelancer brought up a good point that SoFI + Ophidian = driving in to a wall to get across the street. Though what could be interesting is:

4x Meddling Mage
3x Plaguespitter
4x Angel

I'd like to take a second to let the synergy of those 11 creatures sink in. Now, adding in:

2x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Swords to Plowshares

I think you have a good thing going. Though with sofi on negators, you are really looking at a 2.5 turn clock. that is interesting in itself.

Where is extraction in your list? I think this thing has proven itself to be a member of the B/U or B/U/W control goodies to play.

[shade88]

Shadowmage vs. Ophidian.

I agree with Luiggi that Ophidian is simply a better card for eba, not because of it's 1 u in the casting cost, but its 2 colorless. In my opinion, the card that sets these two cards apart is mana drain. Being able to cast a turn 2 drain into a turn 3 ophidian with 2 blue up is a very, very strong argument to play ophidian.
Overall, I would go with Ophidian, but in certain metagames, it should be fine to play finkel.

Plaguespitter is an interesting card, but really relies too much on exalted angel to be useful. Also, it forces 3-4 angels to be played, and the deck is losing about 5+ life if angel doesn't hit the board.

[Freelancer]

On Shadowmage vs. Ophidian

If you are going more in the direction of B than the manabase issue should be obsolete because you need B anyway. The biggest upside shadowmage has over ophidian is that it actually deals damage so triggers SoFI, and ophidian is a very good mana drain sink. But with the addition of 2x SoFI you have quite a lot of drain sinks, I don't have much experience with drain based decks so I leave it to others to decide if 7 sinks is enough (1x fact or fiction, 2x SoFI, 4x negator).


Another card you might want to consider is withered wretch, its double black is scary though. Its ability is really solid in todays environment with lots of graveyard abuse going on. Its also a excellent SoFI carrier.

[Luiggi]

A few things...

@ BillTheDuck: thanks for clarification. I take it you're one of the guys who developed the deck, right? Any other Tool songs you considered as possible names for the deck? Just curious...

@ Dralock: I think the changes you're proposing are too radical, especially the 4 Angels. I could potentially see that in a purely U/W version of the deck, but coming up with WW in a 3-color deck can sometimes be an issue, as it has been for me in the past. I don't think I'd ever run more than 2 Angels in a 3-Color version. Maybe I'm crazy, but I wouldn't want to expose myself to that kind of potential mana problems, and ditto for Withered Wretch, a great card but not in a 3-Color deck (as with ShortBus' Ninja Sword deck, that was U/B/R, and without Aether Vial had trouble casting Wretches). Plaguespitter has its uses, for sure, but I think it's a bit too techy for me, at least until we come up with a maindeck we're all pretty happy with and would then be in a better position to make thosr radical changes.

@ Ophidian + SoFaI and Shadowmage: yes, it's a bit of a bummer, but you can always just choose to have Ophi damage the player and draw a card off the Sword (and deal 2 extra damage). You don't need to necessarily draw two cards for it to be worthwhile, you know, . Yes, it would obviously be better if you equipped it to an Infiltrator, but I think nataz, shade88 and myself have all articulated why we think that Ophi is better than Infiltrator for this deck, and that's because of Mana Drain. For Infiltrator you NEED to have an Underground Sea in play as well as another Blue source, while for Ophi any blue-producing land will suffice.

Luiggi

[VarienTanafres]

When it comes to using EBA, I first started off with Shadowmages over Ophidians. After switching into Ophidians, I started testing out SoFI. I liked SoFI, but heard lots of complants from other people using the same idea, so I ventured out to use something else in place of SoFI that others might have liked. (To no result, go figure) Anyways, back to Ophidian over Mage, I'd prefer to use the Mage. I'd probably use 1 SoFI in the deck and 4 Mages. I'd also use 2 Negators with 2 Angels tho. But then, I'm not that grand of player either, but that's my input.

[shade88]

In conclusion on shadowmage vs. ophidian.

I feel that the cards are truly metagame dependent. The advantage to running shadowmage is that you can also go the sword of fire and ice route, whereas it is not as good with ophidian, obviously because the phid doesn't deal damage when you draw off it. So either way, the drain targets are there.

It really comes down to the metagame. Ophidian is simply better against control and combo. Shadowmage is better against aggro because it generally isn't blocked. Also, shadowmage works better with sword of fire and ice.

[Whatever Works]

I have always thought that Phid was much much better then shadowmage not because of the mana cost, but because the advantages of shadowmage are almost non existent in a type 1 metagame where nobody plays creatures, and when you already have a very good matchup vs. decks that do.

If your going to run drains have you considered running skeletal scrying? Or would that make the deck to similar to 4cc. Also have you considered Umezawa's Jette in the deck? I would find it to be a good choice in the deck, because it costs 2 instead of 3. This would improve your mana curve ALOT considering that negator and phid cost 3, and there is something nice about going turn 1 or turn 2 jette turn 3 negator.

Also have you considered EE in the deck? With the 3c configuration it would appear that the card is at least as good as STP if not better in many circumstances.

[Luiggi]

Skeletal Scrying is definitely a valid option, I think. My concern is that it's really not that good in the early game, and only good later on, by which point we might be in an unfavorable position and unable to capitalize on it. Having said that I can see running 1-2 in the deck. The problem is that I wanted to try and make it more agressive, hence wanting to up the Negator count, possibly adding Serendib Efreet, and SoFaI...

Jitte is another good card, but since many times we won't really be on the offensive (i.e.- if we draw Mages but no Negators, etc.) I think SoFaI is better. Plus, as I was saying in another topic, I think Sword is better because its benefits are immediate (+2/+2, pro-Red, pro-Blue), and if we hit our opponent with the equipped creature it gets even better. Jitte has to wait to get online, that can make it more of a dead card against a deck with good removal.

Engineered Explosives is not a bad idea, but I see it as more of a SB card, since we have a lot of maindeck disruption and StPs. But in the SB I think it's definitely an option.

Anybody want to make specific comments on the decklist I posted a few posts back? As in specific card-swaps?

Luiggi

[Astro]

Skeletal Scrying is definitely a valid option, I think. My concern is that it's really not that good in the early game, and only good later on, by which point we might be in an unfavorable position and unable to capitalize on it. Having said that I can see running 1-2 in the deck. The problem is that I wanted to try and make it more agressive, hence wanting to up the Negator count, possibly adding Serendib Efreet, and SoFaI...

Jitte is another good card, but since many times we won't really be on the offensive (i.e.- if we draw Mages but no Negators, etc.) I think SoFaI is better. Plus, as I was saying in another topic, I think Sword is better because its benefits are immediate (+2/+2, pro-Red, pro-Blue), and if we hit our opponent with the equipped creature it gets even better. Jitte has to wait to get online, that can make it more of a dead card against a deck with good removal.

Engineered Explosives is not a bad idea, but I see it as more of a SB card, since we have a lot of maindeck disruption and StPs. But in the SB I think it's definitely an option.

Anybody want to make specific comments on the decklist I posted a few posts back? As in specific card-swaps?

Luiggi

4 Meddling Mage
3 Ophidian
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

1 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island

To be honest I think your deck list is pretty tight.  Its got a good amount of draw, and has answers, however a couple cards come to mind:

1). Have you considered Aether Vial?  Imo, the deck is screaming for it.  Lets you plop out uncounterable creatures while you sit back with mana drain ready, counts as accel, and also counts as a mana fixer.

2). Cunning Wish or Vindicate seem not shitty for the same obvious reasons.

3). Negator could be swapped out for more utility creatures.  Imo, (I know the cc is fucked, but) a combination of True Believer and Withered Wretch would be insane if you could get them on the table via Aether Vial (if you choose to go that route).  They could always be sided out for Negator in the control match ups too.

Just some ideas though.  I really like what you already have going.  Another card (I'm not sure what to cut or if it is even necessary) but Mother of Runes is sick with Negator and also great with Meddling Mage.

[49 Cents]

Did you tested Umablabla's Jitte instead of Swords of F/I? It seems better as it can randomly boost your creatures and kill others, making space for Negator to blast past.. Also, Scrying seems a very good card in the deck.

A friend of mine played the deck with 2 Angels in it. I really liked it. And no, it wasn't 3/4cc,,

[Luiggi]

@ 49 Cents:

Jitte is another good card, but since many times we won't really be on the offensive (i.e.- if we draw Mages but no Negators, etc.) I think SoFaI is better. Plus, as I was saying in another topic, I think Sword is better because its benefits are immediate (+2/+2, pro-Red, pro-Blue), and if we hit our opponent with the equipped creature it gets even better. Jitte has to wait to get online, that can make it more of a dead card against a deck with good removal.

@ Astro: Aether Vial is an excellent card, but the problem is that if we want to wait to cast our guys via Vial it'll take until at least turn 4 for a Negator or Ophidian, and turn 3 for a Mage. That doesn't seem like such a good deal, IMO. Don't get me wrong, I love Aether Vial, and have run it in every other format where it's legal, but I don't see it as being optimal for this deck, given the casting cost of our guys. It would obviously work in something like Fish, given the better mana curve of their guys, but our current curve is not Vial-optimized.

And while Wretch and True Believer are obviously bombs vs. certain decks, the mana base is not ready to handle that workload. Imagine having Mana Drain, Withered Wretch and True Believer in the same deck: you'd need to be able to have UU, BB and WW all available on turn 2, ideally, and I just don't think that's possible, short of running tons of City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, etc., and we don't want that, I think.

Cunning Wish is a fine idea, and that I can see adding to the deck. Vindicate, however, I don't like at all. It's a sorcery and it requires two different colors of mana, and that just spells bad. I mentioned it briefly in my initial post, so feel free to read what I had to say about it there.

Mother of Runes is great, but in a pure weenie assault deck, which this is not. I could see building a WW/B deck with Duress, Negator and good White guys, but I think that's best to save for a different discussion.

Keep the comments coming, guys, this is great stuff, .

Luiggi

[orgcandman]

I just want to make a few points here.

#1 - Scrying is much better when you're running negators, as it can turn your sac'd permanents into something useful, hopefully negating negator's drawback.

#2 - The best drain sinks in this deck are will, fof, phid, and sofi. Whereas the former are awesome sinks, the latter are mediocre. 'Phid just isn't as strong in a format where tinker->fat exists.

#3 - The deck has no explosion. This is made worse by the fact that a fire targetting negator can ruin your day. God forbid a trike hits. Then you basically get the equivalent of a mind twist.

#4 - You have 4 situationally dead cards. Compare this with 3/4cC where they may have 2 at most (if they run 2 StP).

Sure, you have some great disruption with duress. Meddling Mage just isn't terribly strong right now due to the prevalence of Gifts Ungiven, and people making decks with multiple similar effects under different card names. Your threat of negator is NOT something a control deck wants to be running in the current meta, however. I'm not saying "OMFG EBA IS TEH SUXX PWN!" I'm merely saying this probably isn't the correct build, and more importantly this probably isn't the correct metagame for it.

[Dralock]

@ Dralock: I think the changes you're proposing are too radical, especially the 4 Angels. I could potentially see that in a purely U/W version of the deck, but coming up with WW in a 3-color deck can sometimes be an issue, as it has been for me in the past. I don't think I'd ever run more than 2 Angels in a 3-Color version. Maybe I'm crazy, but I wouldn't want to expose myself to that kind of potential mana problems, and ditto for Withered Wretch, a great card but not in a 3-Color deck (as with ShortBus' Ninja Sword deck, that was U/B/R, and without Aether Vial had trouble casting Wretches). Plaguespitter has its uses, for sure, but I think it's a bit too techy for me, at least until we come up with a maindeck we're all pretty happy with and would then be in a better position to make thosr radical changes.i

I was actually proposing to drop a lot of black. Mucking up your manabase is just a bad idea in general, and since U/W are going to be your most consistent colors (not necessarily your most broken mind you), keeping a solid WW shouldn't be too hard.

On the other hand, 4 angels probably ARE to excessive, even if you were to cut duress completely. I'm still in love with spitters though, they kill fish dead.

Back to your deck list, and to answer your question:

Anybody want to make specific comments on the decklist I posted a few posts back? As in specific card-swaps?

-3 Ophidian
-1 SoFI
-1 Meddling Mage
-1 Duress

+3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
+2 Skeletal Scrying
+1 Cranial Extraction

I agree with orgcandman that scrying is a much better drain use than ophidian. I also don't think SoFI is a necessary evil once you have shadowmage in the deck. Cranial Extraction is a game winner. Couple it with meddling mage and STP and you deny them victory, locking in your win.

[Astro]

@ Astro: Aether Vial is an excellent card, but the problem is that if we want to wait to cast our guys via Vial it'll take until at least turn 4 for a Negator or Ophidian, and turn 3 for a Mage. That doesn't seem like such a good deal, IMO. Don't get me wrong, I love Aether Vial, and have run it in every other format where it's legal, but I don't see it as being optimal for this deck, given the casting cost of our guys. It would obviously work in something like Fish, given the better mana curve of their guys, but our current curve is not Vial-optimized.

And while Wretch and True Believer are obviously bombs vs. certain decks, the mana base is not ready to handle that workload. Imagine having Mana Drain, Withered Wretch and True Believer in the same deck: you'd need to be able to have UU, BB and WW all available on turn 2, ideally, and I just don't think that's possible, short of running tons of City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, etc., and we don't want that, I think.

Cunning Wish is a fine idea, and that I can see adding to the deck. Vindicate, however, I don't like at all. It's a sorcery and it requires two different colors of mana, and that just spells bad. I mentioned it briefly in my initial post, so feel free to read what I had to say about it there.

Mother of Runes is great, but in a pure weenie assault deck, which this is not. I could see building a WW/B deck with Duress, Negator and good White guys, but I think that's best to save for a different discussion.

Keep the comments coming, guys, this is great stuff, .

Luiggi

Actually Luiggi, I think your deck looks pretty solid.  As I mentioned before about Withered Wretch True Believer and such, I definately think they are viable in a Vial based deck, however thats a different deck and I won't muddle up your thread with it. 

I've been play testing your deck alot since you posted this thread (with minor changes) and have had some decent results.  As far as the list you posted goes, I feel the weakest slot is Negator.  Negator is tits and everything, however he's hugely meta dependent.  Either way, I really don't have suggestions outside of Angel and Serendib as they're the only thing I can think of thats decent and also a good Drain sink.  Withered Wretch would wreck some shit if his cc wasn't double black, his ability makes an awesome Drain sink outside of wrecking half the top decks right now.  I really feel if Negator is main decked Mother of Runes should be warranted a slot (or at least tested).  Not only to protect Negator, but also to protect Phid and M. Mage.  And if not Mother of Runes then I feel Misdirection should at least be warranted that slot instead.

Another slot is Sword of Fire and Ice.  Is Jitte better for this deck?  I see this becoming the next big debate since the old school Orim's Chant vs. Abeyance debate.

Here's the list I've been testing:

4x Meddling Mage
3x Phyrexian Negator
3x Ophidian
3x Mother of Runes


4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
3x Duress

4x Brainstorm
2x Cunning Wish
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor

3x Sword of Fire and Ice / Umezawa's Jitte
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Time Walk

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Sol Ring
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Tundra


Decks aren't terribly different:
Cunning Wish is ran main with StP and Disenchant on the sb amongst others.
The lone StP sits by its self main deck and not replaced with another Wish as its needed to be main decked so as to be searched out by Mystical and Demonic Tutor.
I run 1 less Negator, 1 less StP, one more SoFI, +3 Mother of Runes,  ect..   

[tito del monte]

concerning creature options: I don't know if this is too leftfield, but could juggernaut be a possible replacement for negator. Obviously they cost that 1 mana more than the other options mooted (negator, dibs, face down angel), but are easy to cast off the back of a drain and have a far smaller draw back than negator or the serendibs (though obviously both of these have evasion of sorts).

Playing juggernauts could also warrant the inclusion of mana crypt that Luiggi mentioned earler, either as a way of dropping them earlier, or along with tinker, as a alternate way to drop them quickly.

[CrazyCarl]

“Eon Blue Apocalypse” [though I never really understood why the deck was named after a Tool song, but I digress

Because we liked Tool a lot at the time.

Shit dude, I thought you were dead!?

Didn't you make this deck -before- Dump Truck in Extended?  Didn't I shit on this deck constantly?

Are you still playing the Magik Krads?

[Luiggi]

#4 - You have 4 situationally dead cards. Compare this with 3/4cC where they may have 2 at most (if they run 2 StP).

What are the 4 cards you're referring to? I can see the StPs as being situational, but what are the other two?

@ Astro: I prefer Sword to Jitte for reasons I've gone into already, so I don't want to bore everyone with that discussion again, .

@ tito del monte: thanks for the suggestion, but I see Juggernaut as being too left-field, ad you said.

I'm on vacation in Argentina until June 5th, so I don't know how often I'll be able to check for replies. Please keep the comments coming if you have them, though, since this has all been very helpful.

Luiggi

[Ivantheterrible]

Shit dude, I thought you were dead!?

Didn't you make this deck -before- Dump Truck in Extended?  Didn't I shit on this deck constantly?

Are you still playing the Magik Krads?

I was as suprised as you were to see nick respond. No he still hasn't come back to magic even though he is going to college in the same town he grew up in near all his magic buddies and the shop that bore vintages first great team (no carl your paragons actually had nothing on us (well they did on me but not everyone else)

I dont know if he will ever come back but it would be cool

to the guy who bitched about exalted angel making the deck worse it was in the early list so its not making the deck worse if it was already there.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Well Luis me and Mark tested it the other day at the ground and we tried many different things:

Mesmeric Fiend: Definetly the best card untested in this aggro control archetype, combine this with a Sword and it is hell to pay.

Skeletal Scrying: I think this card is a must because it is just such a powerful draw card. Testing proved that Ophidian is definetly the worst creature ever in here. Impulse would definetly be better.