Worse Than Fish 3.0

[Discozombie]

Dozer: actually lethal combat damage will kill a DSC, indestructability just means that it cannot be disenchanted/naturalized.  It will die from combat damage.  And it is actually not that mana intensive since you only have to pay the U1 once since it retains the power until you choose another creature power for it to aquire. 

JacobOrlove: Try it out once, the ability to constantly draw past garbage in you deck every turn is awesome.  It is card and turn advantage since you are not wasting a draw on a card you do not want and you can constantly draw past it every turn. 

[Negator13]

"Darksteel Colossus is indestructable. (Damage and 'destroy' effects don't destroy it."

[Jacob Orlove]

Indestructible
If a permanent is indestructible, rules and effects can't destroy it. Such permanents are not destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the lethal-damage state-based effect (see rule 420.5c). Rules or effects may cause an indestructible permanent to be sacrificed, put into a graveyard, or removed from the game.

And I don't need to test Mirri's Guile, because it's worse than Brainstorm in every possible way.

[Tristal]

I really doubt it would fit in the deck, but Sylvan Library does have a lot of Johnny-like synergy with certain cards in the deck (Mongrel, Jitte).  Additionally, there are certain decks that can't take advantage of you paying 8 life a turn to Ancestral on your draw step.

[Hightower]

Jacob Orlove...

You played in Denmark/Copenhagen right?
- did you use the decklist you listed on page 1 or what? And what happened?? (is the "Danish Meta" much more different than in USA, and in which way)


Regards

/the n00b

[Jacob Orlove]

Jacob Orlove...

You played in Denmark/Copenhagen right?
- did you use the decklist you listed on page 1 or what? And what happened?? (is the "Danish Meta" much more different than in USA, and in which way)


Regards

/the n00b

My Copenhagen list was a little different. I was running some Brainstorms main, a few random creatures, and a slightly different sideboard (it shoud have been radically different, sadly). I made some awful mistakes and ended up losing two matches in the swiss--one to a r/g beats deck that I just didn't have the cards to beat (wasting a force on the wrong creature didn't help), and one to a sensei/top deck that surprised me with a tinkered colossus in game 2. I also drew a match with a Mono-U donate deck by going to time. Overall, I was very impressed with the meta, because the people without power seemed to be doing a great job of playing what they could, and playing it well, and the players with power seem to have adapted to a meta full of Null Rods (mostly through Oath and Tinker/DSC). I'll be back next month, with WTF, but with a few more tweaks to the maindeck and with some sideboard surprises.

[The Hamburgler]

Though admittedly enough, I have rarely had time to sit down and play some casual vintage, not to mention playtest. Therefore, I would like to initiate a gameshow I call ask Jacob:

1) Will Pithing Needle find a slot in the maindeck? Keep in mind, it turns off Fetchlands, an excellent source of mana disruption.

2) Isn't Gilded Drake a much better option than your previous sideboard versus Oath and The Riddler?

3) Did you shave your beard yet?

4) Is this 'fish' build as based on tempo as previous? If not, explain why, if so, give an example on how games are won or loss do to a sudden loss in tempo.

5) Is Umezawa's Jitte as solid removal as it is made out to be? Do you have problems with the four mana investment? Is vial enough to aid this investment, while keep tempo running?

If you could answer any of these questions, I would be greatly pleased. Thank you very much, and congratulations on another tournament that got Jacorbulated!

P.S: Remember that time we opened all those Xena packs on Cape Cod? Well, if you don't, this should refresh your memory:
YII-YII-YII-YII-YII-YII-YI! (exact number mind you)
Much wub jacob,
-Cape Cod

[JuJu]

I've been playtesting this lately (Less than 50 Games, I'd say) and I have a couple of general questions that you might have answered in your tourney report, if you did, just say so.
Has Standstill been keeping it's weight? I like the idea of having Standstill and Vial syngery but one thing I've noticed is playing a CotV sometimes stunts the going of your Standstill, has this been a problem or is it more of a good thing that they have to wait even longer to be able to play? I've also noticed some decks can just play around the whole Standstill plan by popping it and blowing a whole load of broken on you, while you have your force forced and spiketail payed for. Have you tried some more hard counters? Circular Logic even?
I completely love the Mongrel, Rootwalla and Ninja play. Attack with Rootwalla and Mongrel, ninjitsu Rootwalla back to hand, Bring rootwalla back into play whenever with Mongrel. It's fun stuff. Also, have you found anything to handle DSC? Now that gifts is running it, I have to put up with more of them ;[. Also, have the Jittes been amazing? I know they're cheap but I'm surprised that that little cost difference doesn't make Swords better, since the swords have better abilities.

That's it for now, I suppose. Gogo European Jacobtron.

[shade88]

Standstill is definitely pulling its weight. without standstill, there would only be 3 ninjas in the deck to draw cards. Furthermore, the deck only runs 8 counters, 4 hard counters, and can't afford to not be drawing cards. Simply put, there isn't a better blue draw spell out there for the deck to use.

[Jacob Orlove]

Brainstorm is actually working out really well, although it means running strange numbers of cards (like 3 Standstill).

I haven't even started to test Pithing Needle. It will probably find a spot in the sideboard, although I doubt there's enough maindeck space for it. Hating out fetches is tough when everyone is running two of each, especially when I have both too. It's going to be very solid against Bazaar and Top and the like, though.

I don't like Gilded Drake against Oath because it only takes one creature. I have to put myself in a position to lose (let them oath) to try to steal Akroma. If they Oath up Ancient Hydra instead, I just lose. Against the Riddler, well, I don't have SB slots for Eric Miller.

I don't know what you're asking with your tempo question. Obviously, you need tempo to win, otherwise your clock would still be too slow.

Jitte is awesome, Sophie is terrible

[PizzaMan]

3) Did you shave your beard yet?

Jacob, why didn't you answered that question?

^^

I'm going to do some tests before asking something about the list, but I'm considering some new (old) techs

[Vood]

I did some testing against my Slaver deck. (Around 20 games) WTF has the edge over it. Mostly because of Chalice and Wasteland/Strip Mine. Slaver has a pretty fragile mana base when you think of it. However I found the Aether Vial very sub optimal. I don't think that the small tempo gain is worth it. Then Standstill/Vial synergy is not really that great, since you don't have problems having board advantage when you are playing mishras and small creatures. As for the Jitte, I was amazed at how strong it is if you can place a single successful attack.

Now WTF has problems managing big creatures like Darksteel Colossus or Phyrexian Dreadnought.Maybe some bouncing/destroying could be useful.

[Matt]

As for the Jitte, I was amazed at how strong it is if you can place a single successful attack.

Are you aware that Jitte gets counters on any combat damage, not just damage to players?

[AmbivalentDuck]

I've actually been running a very similar deck in Legacy. Some relatively good tech there has been the addition of black for Cabal Therapy and Mesmeric Fiend (belcher, despite being bad, is rampant).  In Vintage, both/either would help to shore up the low number of hard counters without sacrificing card advantage or utility.  This also gives access to Withered Wretch.  The trade off is that I only run 20 land which hasn't yet been a problem (average of ~2.7 lands in the first 8 cards).  The rootwallas just aren't worth the continued investment.  Sure it's a 3/3 when pumped...but against what?  At that rate run a Genju, most are better and won't give Oath a creature to trigger on. 

Another thought is Living Wish.  1G gets you Meddling Mage, True Believer, Voidmage Prodigy, (Spiritmonger in Legacy,) Gilded Drake, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Monk Realist, or Plaguebearer.   I'm sure I've missed some, but those are some NICE options with an active Aether Vial and most are not win-more cards.  They act as silver bullets that can ax whole archetypes at instant speed.

Just something to think about, maybe it's overly extended/Legacy tech...  But Mesmeric Fiend and Cabal Therapy win games.

[Anusien]

What sort of cards did you cut for Brainstorm, and why?  The traditional logic has been that in very unpowered/weak decks like this or mono-blue that Brainstorm is underwhelming.  I tend to agree, especially when you have stronger plays in Rootwalla and Aether Vial, especially when you want a Standstill.

Also I've been trying to work with an unpowered build, because I don't think that losing the few pieces of power add all that much.  I'm considering Gush and Deep Analysis to try and squeeze some extra draw out.  And which is a better boost: Sol Ring or Lotus Petal.  Lotus Petal feels underwhelming because you're not jumping to Drain mana, but Sol Ring doesn't seem helpful either, except maybe to hardcast Deep Analysis.  Or are there any good Mox replacements?

Also, what do you think of Daze in the deck?

What other sideboard options did you consider?

[nataz]

brainstorm + fetches though can be a pretty powerful draw engine, and later in the game can draw cards, + shuffle away extra vials and chalices.

[thokash]

I have also recently pieced together this deck, and like many others before me, found Spiketail Hatchling to be the card I want to cut the most.  As Jacob said before I feel this needs to be a blue creature of some sort, so I was wondering what ever happened to Cloud of Faeries?  Turn 2 is the most crucial turn for any build of fish, even if it isn't running Rod.  The ability to play a threat (albeit a weak 1/1 CoF ) then untap and play a Standstill or Jitte is huge.  Especially after you have played a first turn Vial, or if you have a Ninja in hand ready for the next turn attack.  It also has the side ability to cycle and draw a replacement card, even under a Standstill.

Also after reading through the previous posts, I noticed some talk about incorportating Brainstorm.  If possible Jacob, could you provide us with an updated decklist to see your changes?

Cheers!

[Jacob Orlove]

brainstorm + fetches though can be a pretty powerful draw engine, and later in the game can draw cards, + shuffle away extra vials and chalices.

Exactly. Brainstorm is a terrible first turn play in most circumstances, but it's amazing just a turn or two later. I would definitely run it over junk like DA or Gush.

If you want to run brainstorms, I'd cut a land (probably library) and the vise for two, and then work from there.

Cloud is just really underwhelming, especially when cast off a Vial (where it won't untap lands). Gaea's Skyfolk is much, much better, and Waterfront Bouncer may be necessary in Tinker-Colossus metagames.

Rootwallas are absolutely worth the continued investment. I have 8+ ways to make them free (discard step!), which only makes them even better with ninjas. Playing ninjas is totally sweet, because often people have no choice but to keep giving you cards. You can afford to keep pumping Rootwallas because Vial saves you so much mana. They rarely even fight with Factories for mana.

Black is a different direction to take the deck, but there just isn't room in this deck for it, unless you want to stop using Force of Will.

If you're running unpowered, I'd probably just go for lands. Vial is your major acceleration anyway, and Chalice 0 doesn't need moxes to come out on turn 1. You'll be a bit slower, but that's better than running bad cards. Remember, don't just replace power with similar but worse cards. Rebuild the deck.

Daze is just not something I can see having room for.

Other SB possibilities include the whole range of Fish SB cards, plus the obvious green options.

[thokash]

I noticed that you run a Plains/Tundra in the board together with Ray of Revelation.  As a suggestion, could this deck cope with moving white into maindeck?  I know this would move the deck in more of a Bird Sh*t direction, but I think it opens up good cards that can deal with threats that prove a problem for fish.  Meddling Mage could be added in that Hatchling/Skyfolk/Bouncer slot, and running Vial doesn't mean the white mana casting cost isn't as bad as it seems (its also part-blue for pitchability sake).  You can then run the best white card ever printed in the sideboard - Swords to Plowshares - to help against Oath, Tinker -> Colossus, and even against Welders.

Obviously the drawback is more susecptability to non-basic hate and the like, but having an uncounterable Meddling Mage and an answer to those threats that Fish just can't deal with otherwise in the form of Swords seems an appealing prospect.   I don't know if you have looked into this much, but its just a thought!

[Freelancer]

- Swords to Plowshares - to help against Oath

Swords hardly helps against oath because you need a minimum of 2 to kill the oath player and you need to resolve them. Not to mention the protection creatures they often bring in when they notice you are running white.

[Jacob Orlove]

I actually moved a Tundra into the maindeck to free up SB space at the Denmark event. I managed to get it wasted in at least one game 1. It's probably possible to add white to the maindeck, but it would mean an even less consistent mana base, and for very little gain. In any metagame where Sundering Titan exists, it's probably not worth it.

[rvs]

I actually moved a Tundra into the maindeck to free up SB space at the Denmark event. I managed to get it wasted in at least one game 1. It's probably possible to add white to the maindeck, but it would mean an even less consistent mana base, and for very little gain. In any metagame where Sundering Titan exists, it's probably not worth it.

From your original list, I cut an island for a Trop, took out a Black Vise and  a Chalice for a Mox pearl and a 3rd Jitte, which has been totally awesome. I suppose I could cut the 4th trop for a Tundra again.
You said that Hatchling was quite weak, but I found it to be quite useful. I don't think a Bouncer would be a suitable replacment (and if it should be replaced, it should be a blue card!).
I don't think the Skyfolk is a viable alternative either, since it just doesn't do anything. It's not like the 1 damage difference between the hatchling and the skyfolk is going to matter as much as not having the neat trick of surprising someone with a hatchling, or at least make them play around it as long as you have a vial.

[PizzaMan]

I used a version of WTF this weekend in a 40+ players in Brazil, where the metagame is totally aggro and unpowered.
I made this changes:

-1 Ancestral Recall (I don't have)
-1 Time Walk (I don't have)
+2 Berserks
These was the only replacements for Power, because I have the artifacts, and I think that Berserk is, most of times, a Time Walk #1 and #2.

-4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Daze
The Dazes work, most of times, for bluffing. And sometimes saves from Bargains and other threats... and the Chalices are just useless in a UNpowered Metagame =/

-1 Library of Alexandria
-1 Spiketail Hatchling
+2 Gilded Drake
The Library was just unnecessary. In all my playtests before the tournament, my hand usually stay around 3-5 cards in turn 3-4, and the deck wins in speed against most of the matchups, and drawing with LoA and only FoWs to counter is just to risky...
And the Gilded Drakes was a metagame call. In a unpowered aggro metagame, Oath is a good choice. The Hatchling #4 was cut because Dazes now can do almost the same dirty work for Tempo advantage. And sometimes the Gilded Drakes help against Tinker-Colossus, big creatures (like Spiritmonger) and to pitch to FoW.

-1 Black Vise
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Obvious after all the discussion in this topic.

The deck is almost perfect. I won every single game I played without any fear to lose. The only thing I would remove is the Gilded Drakes. They're useless against a lot of decks, and the deck just smashes Oath's face, and the SB is already good enough.

I don't think the Skyfolk can replace the Hatchlings... I had some great hands of:
1 Black Lotus, 1 Umezawa´s Jitte, 1 Mishra's Factory, 1 Wasteland, 1 Spiketail Hatchling and 2 Dazes
that would be an almost Mulligan with the Skyfolks... I mean, the 1st turn is crucial, and lose a creature drop for having no mana kinda... sucks....

EDIT:
Of course, the 2 berserks should be powers, and the Dazes go to Chalices in a powered metagame, but the Gilded Drakes should become Hatchling #4 and maybe a Tundra.

[Luiggi]

Jacob: any word on your tournament report? I know you mentioned it a few times at the beginning of the topic, but I haven't seen anything else on it lately. Is it going up on StarCity as non-Premium, or will it be here on TMD?

Luiggi

[Jacob Orlove]

Knut says the report will be up soon (it got lost once, apparently). If people have questions on stuff that I didn't cover in great detail, ask once I've linked to it in this thread (which I will, since it definitely won't be premium).

As for running the deck unpowered, obviously it's very possible, and I wish the best of luck to those who try. Berserk seems a very odd choice, though. I can see a little bit of synergy with Mongrel, but it's hard to believe that Giant Growth wouldn't be better almost all the time, and I can think of a lot of cards I'd run over Giant Growth.

Several people have reported decent results with Daze, so if anyone wants to add it, it's certainly an option.

The one damage difference between spiketails and skyfolk actually is huge. With a Ninja or a Factory, it shaves two turns off your clock (one turn with Rootwalla, hard to say with Mongrel). Alone, it's a real threat, rather than a 1/1. While messing with their spells a bit is nice, forcing them to actually deal with your creatures or die is often better. You definitely need to add more green sources if you run them, though, probably cutting the basic islands down significantly.

Gilded Drake really just seems like a bad Waterfront Bouncer.

Oh, and Library, like Vise, definitely doesn't belong. If you haven't cut it already, go ahead and do so.

[Jacob Orlove]

And the report is up! http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9807.html

I didn't end up talking about how I sideboarded very much, so if people have questions about that (or anything else!) feel free to keep asking.

[Ender]

In the article, you mention that the furances should be tormod's crypt so the question I want to ask is how effective have the crypts been when you are putting chalice for 0 in every game (or hoping to do so). Wouldn't that be anti-syngeristic? and them welding out a jitte for crypt would be annoying too right? I'm not idling asking because I've tested it a bit and its not that rare that a TD jitte with active welder in play makes it almost uncastable.

[Jacob Orlove]

Well, that's actually a good point. If you really need graveyard hate, Ground Seal or Pithing Needle are probably your best bets, depending on whether you care more about bazaar/squee or everything else. I haven't been running GY hate, because I saw almost no bazaars in use at the Copenhagen tournament.

[savekeeper]

I didn't end up talking about how I sideboarded very much, so if people have questions about that (or anything else!) feel free to keep asking.

With you're most recent build how would you sideboard against: SSB, TPS, Fish, Dragon, Stax and Oath?

Really liked the article btw, it was well written and easy to read. A little less i depth then I had hoped but I guess thats whats this thread is for.

[Jacob Orlove]

Siding against gift decks is complicated, and depends on what you've seen/expect. If you know they're boarding in Old Man, bring in Kira (this is probably your default plan). If you expect their main plan to be tinker->colossus, then you probably want some kind of bounce, if you have it. You can cut a Standstill (if they run welders, anyway, since those guys invalidate the standstill), and probably a rootwalla.

Against other fish decks, if they have Rod, bring in Oxidize (or whatever you have to kill artifacts). It can hit factories too, but making sure Jitte works is very helpful. Cut the 4 chalices. You can also bring in Kira or whatever, since you'll probably have a bit of space. If you're running 23 lands, and have tundra in the board, consider bringing it in.

Against dragon, pithing needle will be excellent once it's legal. Until then, graveyard hate is good, ray of revelation is great, BeB and bounce is okay. Keep Chalice in, because it's very important to keep their fast mana off the table (especially since they can draw so much of it later on, and exploit it so well). Knowing exactly how much mana they can have on their next turn is really, really good.

Against Stax, bring in some artifact hate, and cut Jittes if they have enchantments over welders. If they have welders, cut standstills.

Against Oath, bring in the rays and lands for two wastelands and four chalices on the draw. Moxes after turn 1 are basically dead draws for oath anyway, so Chalice isn't very useful, and wasteland really doesn't help much since all their lands are orchards, wastes, or islands. On the play, you probably need to cut an island and some other land for the SB lands, and something like a ninja, a standstill, a jitte, and a rootwalla (or whatever seems best to you) for the rays. If you have the tundra main, you obviously only need to bring in the plains.

Against TPS, you probably want Oxidize on the draw to hit any turn 1 artifact mana they play. Cut Jittes. If they have Tinker-Colossus, be ready for it.