Is the Epic mechaninc worth anything in Vintage?

[Malhavoc]

First, I'll list the 5 epic spells.

Enduring Ideal
5WW (7), Sorcery
Search your library for an enchantment card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.
Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't play spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.)

Eternal Dominion
7UUU (10), Sorcery
Search target opponent's library for an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card. Put that card into play under your control. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't play spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability. You may choose a new target for the copy.)

Neverending Torment
4BB (6), Sorcery
Search target player's library for X cards, where X is the number of cards in your hand, and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't play spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability. You may choose a new target for the copy.)

Undying Flames
4RR (6), Sorcery
Remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card. Undying Flames deals damage to target creature or player equal to that card's converted mana cost.
Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't play spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability. You may choose a new target for the copy.)

Endless Swarm
5GGG (8), Sorcery
Put a 1/1 green Snake creature token into play for each card in your hand.
Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't play spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.)




The red and green ones are the most useless.. the red one says "win in about 4 turns from now, but do nothing until you win, apart killing creatures, but than it takes longer"; the green one says "win in about 4 turns from now, and you can block everything which doesn't fly, but do nothing until you win". Both are pure trash.

The other ones deserves at least a closer look. The blue one is strong, even it's not necessary a win condition in its own, since there are many decks which lack powerful targets to steal. And being able to do only one robbery each turn is now much. Add to this the HUGE cc, and you can make cigarette filters with that too.

Now the black one. This one IS interesting. The casting cost is very high, but not impossible. It's a winning condition in its own, since it mills the opponents in about 7 turns. It could seem too much, but it's not necessary that if the opponent can't win anymore. If you manage to remove all his win conditions, there is nothing left he can do. Leaving Hulk without Atogs or TPS without tendrils, brainfreeze and darksteel colossus, or oath without its creatures kills them too. The real risk is that they have already drawn in, or played it. Unfortunately this spell looks only in the library, not in the hand and/or graveyard. Risky move unless we've cast a duress before.
This spell, however, is really an auto-lose against aggro decks or any deck which have already played a serious menace. This means that IMHO no serious deck can work AROUND it, since no deck can be sure to win casting it against anyone. However it could be an interesting 1x maindeck or (more probably) in sideboard, since it can not wreck completely anydeck. Consider that just like a uber-powerful cranial extraction, but that leaves you vulnerable for the rest of the game, but that against some decks is an "I win" card. I can see it to be a possible card in decks which can play ritual and/or drains, and possibly duress too (to be sure some vital card has not been drawn already). Atog could cast it after a good drain for instance. I'm not saying this is necessary good, but indeed against some decks it is. The problem is that its use is maybe too narrow.

And now the white one. This can help us bring in huge enchantments. The first which comes to my mind, which could establish some control, is decree of silence. Dropping a decree as first enchantment, maybe another the turn after, and then the real win conditions seems an interesting possibility. As additional defenses we could drop moat,  solitary confinement, Island Sanctuary (after all we do not need to draw anymore), pernicious deed as big removal, maybe form of the dragon as both defence and finisher. The power of the card is really interesting, however the real problem seems to be he really high casting cost. Even with full jewelry and 4 drains, the deck needs to be a sort of slow control deck. What hurts more is that in order to have great results from a resolved Enduring Ideal, we need to run very heavy stuff like Decree of Silence, card almost uncastable otherwise. Would be running Academy rector a good idea to fix this problem? I'm not too sure, since we would also need ways to kill it. I see as a better option running Enduring Ideal as an additional win condition, together with something like Replenish. If we bump into graveyard hate, we could still play Enduring Ideal which does not suffer it.


In the end, IMHO it seems like the black spell could be an interesting tech against some decks, using it as a sideboard card. The white one, instead, could maybe be a good card in a particular deck, maybe something like that "Bruce Lee - Enter the Dragon" deck I've found here on the forum some time ago (http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22175.0). But I fear it's just really too slow to work properly in Vintage.

[warble]

With a mana cost that high, the only way to produce this much mana early on is usually to play a bunch of mana acceleration and/or moxen.  Once you ensure your deck does that, you want uncounterable win conditions (mind's desire/tendrils) not an epic win condition.
Playing this in control is relatively pointless as well because total casting cost >= mindslaver and requiring colored means it will come out later then mindslaver.  Plus you lose welder recursion.
The fact that you can boseiju one out is the only thing going for epic sorceries.

[Meanee]

And now the white one. This can help us bring in huge enchantments. The first which comes to my mind, which could establish some control, is decree of justice.

This makes no sense, but I believe you mean something else? Decree of justice is not an enchantment - it is a sorcery.
Nevertheless what you could fetch could be the sacred mesa. I don't, however, think it is very good. As you say yourself it will be an incredible slow deck.

That is also the problem with the rest of the epic-cards - they are simply too slow, and furthermore vintage is all about drawing and throwing spells.

To sum up: The epic is an interesting ability, but I really don't think any of the cards will see any play - let it be in standard, vintage or legacy.

- Meanee

[Ender]

And now the white one. This can help us bring in huge enchantments. The first which comes to my mind, which could establish some control, is decree of justice.

This makes no sense, but I believe you mean something else? Decree of justice is not an enchantment - it is a sorcery.

I believe he means after playing epic spell, you cycle decree for some tokens as a bootleg defense because cycling is the card's ability and not playing a spell.

[Malhavoc]

No sorry, I meant decree of silence, I've fixed it in the original post, sorry for the typo. Anyway, I was not saying a deck using the white epic spell is good, or even could be good, I was just wondering about the answer.

[49 Cents]

The white one, instead, could maybe be a good card in a particular deck, maybe something like that "Bruce Lee - Enter the Dragon" deck I've found here on the forum some time ago (http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22175.0). But I fear it's just really too slow to work properly in Vintage.

See the topic in the Open forum: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=25f0a7f063ba503f60591d2dc4485b9e&topic=22175.0

The deck is called 'Leviat.dec'.
I won't call it slow, But it's still a control deck that needs time to set up the combo and win.
It has made several T8's:
- http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=25f0a7f063ba503f60591d2dc4485b9e&topic=22976.0
- http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=25f0a7f063ba503f60591d2dc4485b9e&topic=22580.0
- http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=25f0a7f063ba503f60591d2dc4485b9e&topic=22537.0
- http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=231

The card might be worth it, but I think a 7 mana sorcery is WAY worse then casting Replenish, a 4 mana Sorcery..

Greetz,

Hugo

[Ben Kossman]

The White one really complements Academy Rector and strikes me as at least test worthy in a deck packing Serra's Sanctum
or possibly The Green Mana Flare or Mirari's Wake (or something viable in type one). If Parfait were still competitive
the Tax/Rack combo would work great to get the big enchantments back into the deck if you drew them.

[That0neguy]

No.



They are either too slow or too ineffectual

Red/Green - already stated that they are horrible.
Blue - also pretty but since it could end up finding something totally worthless
Black - leaves you with no protection if they have already draw the card they need
White - the best target is yawgmoths bargain in which case you should win that turn but you can't play spells why not just play rector.

Also they have the problem that they can be counted and cost at least 6 mana.  6 Mana should win the game now (bargain, desire, mind slaver) not in a couple turns with you not being able to play another spell the rest of the game.

[goobafish]

the best target is yawgmoths bargain in which case you should win that turn but you can't play spells why not just play rector.

I totally disagree. Why not go for solitary confinement, blue honden and form of the dragon, or something similar to that. What is the point of bargaining if you cant play the spells you draw? Why not just lockdown for the kill. Once you cast and resolve ideal it is almost game. With a solitary confinement on the table its hard to pull out, especially followed by a enchantment kill condition. This card may be an addition to replenish decks as a 1-2 of, but it clearly isnt as strong as replenish.

[Warlock]

I believe the black epic is probably the best as it can be played the most consistantly 3rd turn with [card]lake of the dead[/card] and can probably even be done pretty easily on the second with rituals or other acceleration, but I don't know if a recurring [card]jesters cap[/card] is really worth losing to [card]mana drain[/card], [card]force of will[/card], [card]stifle[/card] or the card left in thier hand, and I don't really care for the cycling cards either. But, it's also the only one I'd consider because of [card]duress[/card]

Edit: I guess stifle would be a good thing!?! oh well

[Malhavoc]

As I was looking for possible targets for the white epic spell, I've found this:

Ice Cave
3UU (5), Enchantment
Whenever a player plays a spell, any other player may pay that spell's mana cost. If a player does, counter the spell. (Mana cost includes color.)

Since we are not going to cast anything anymore, we are going to make a good use of our mana: countering almost everything dangerous on the other side.

An example: for the first enchantment I get decree of silence (we are almost tapped out, so Ice Cave isn't good now). For second target I get this or solitary confinement (depends if the decree is going to break soon or not, and depends on the amount of threats in play also), for third the other of the two. Then I have estabilished an hard lock and can easily look for a win condition, not matter what it is. Of course Ice Cave asks for a deck able to provided a lot of different mana colors, however maybe it's possible to limit it to the most dangerous ones: blue, white and green (all those able to destroy Solitary Confinement). Green could also *maybe* give us more acceleration to cast our threats.

[Hiro]

Well, for the mana problems, maybe you could play Celestial Dawn to produce coloured mana. Since it's only 3cc, you could easily cast it early in the game.

Celestial Dawn
{W}{W}
Enchantment
Nonland cards you own that aren't in play, spells you control, and nonland permanents you control are white. Lands you control are Plains. Spells and abilities you control produce white mana instead of any other color. You may spend white mana as though it were mana of any color.

[freakish777]

I'm fairly positive that none of them are playable in Type One.

The White one might be fun in 1.5/Ext/Casual though fetching the following cards:

Sulfiric Vortex
Transcendence
Sterling Grove
Sterling Grove

Then whatever else to help you win faster.

Another possibility is Shared Fate plus the Hondens.

[Khahan]

Why  not just get solitary confinement/form of the dragon?

[kl0wn]

Epic sucks ass. And this is coming from someone who's notorious for playing bad decks and cards.

It's equivalent to Corky calling you a retard and Richard Simmons calling you gay at the same time and having them both be right. The mechanic is just plain useless and uninteresting and I'm still trying to figure out why they even bothered to print these terrible cards in the first place. In rare slots, no less.

They should have just printed a Pale Moon cycle, that would have been mildly amusing at least.

Blue Moon
1U
Instant
Until end of turn, if a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, it produces colorless mana instead of its normal type.

Red Moon
1R
Instant
Until end of turn, if a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, it produces colorless mana instead of its normal type.

Green Moon
1G
Instant
Until end of turn, if a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, it produces colorless mana instead of its normal type.

Black Moon
1B
Instant
Until end of turn, if a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, it produces colorless mana instead of its normal type.

White Moon
1W
Instant
Until end of turn, if a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, it produces colorless mana instead of its normal type.

Good lord, do I ever hate this mechanic.

[Whatever Works]

Out of the Epic cards the white 1 has the most realistic potential, and to me the most logical kill would be something like this...

1st enchantment target ---> Decree of Silence
2nd enchantment target ---> Parallex wave/tide or nether void or something removal based who knows even deed works
3rd enchantment target ---> Opelescence which is a faster kill then form of dragon

[49 Cents]

But how will you ever reach 5WW? You need to pack things to speed you up AND run enough enchantments to 'set up the combo' AND pack enough good cards so you won't lose randomly..
Opalescence might seem good, but I assure you Form is better, as aggro isn't going to attack you, you can kill a Platz with it and it brings your life back to 5 each turn. My first pick will always be Confinement, with my second being Form and my third being something random, maybe a second form or a second confinement. Don't overrate Decree, it is 'full' so quick..

I think this combination would be the best, it doesn't take that much room and it kills solid, if you like to try 'the deck'..

Greetz,

Hugo

[That0neguy]

What i was talking about with bargain is that if you are going to be getting out an enchantment you should go for bargain and you should be useing rector for that but slowly grabbing enchantments to set up A lock probably won't work since it will be set up to slowly.

Also as for casting it you are running all of the speed mana maby minus mana crypt plus what?  Mana drain? so by turn 3 you would need UU WW if you are going to be fast enough there are just too many problems to work around and then its slow and the black one can just screw you over since if they have any threats in hand you lose if it is faser than at most a 7 turn clock.

[Pizzatog]

Even though I am skeptical about this card, those mana issues are what people kept arguing about Future sight. Divining top turned out to be very good though.

[Almighty]

This just seems like a bad idea. If there is any aggro decks in a field, the black epics are useless. The white epic is a fairly bad one, since it would take some serious time to build enough mana to cast it, and I doubt it would be a better win condition than Decree of Justice. You have to figure that a deck which can reliably cast this spell and resolve it would have to have drains, so I assume that the deck would be a control deck. The issue here is that for a control deck, it would be running 4-5 cards that are absolutely dead in any game when drawn into hand. I just don't like the idea too much at all.

[Starke of Rath]

It's alot easier to play replenish and bazaar and the eventually draw the cards, instead of casting some 5WW sorcery, who's useless whenever you draw one the enchantments

[apoc7k]

My short answer to whether these are viable is no.

The truth is, there are far too many inefficiencies with this card to make it viable. Aimed toward the white epic spell, I will name these problems off accordingly.

Problem #1 - The mana cost.

Having a 7cc, this card is just awfully expensive. By the time you have 7 mana available to cast this card, your opponent will have a very strong defense set up. With my experience, You having enough mana for a one-shot epic spell typically means that 1) the opponent already has an awesome defense, 2) the opponent sucks, or is letting you do that to feel out your strategy, or my favorite,  3) the opponent is going to smash your face in with their deck, as they are about to win.

Problem #2 - The limited effectiveness of its ability.

Only receiving one enchantment per turn is very inefficient. This will have a fairly slow clock for killing your opponent (form of the dragon takes the next few turns, depending on the number of them you run). Honestly the most viable approach to this is by first bringing in Nether Void so their tricks become somewhat limited, then starting the havoc. Still, this takes precious turns, and once they get started, this will probably be very ineffective.

Problem #3 - The epic mechanic itself.

Having this spell be the last spell you ever play, this can really damage your chances of surviving. Unless you have a row of Isochron Scepters sitting on the board with an array of tech spells, you may just get smoked by the opponent. Since I can remember, vintage somewhat revolves around having a defense up as you play against an opponent. Even with combo, you will need to take certain precautions just so a deck doesn't attack your kill, and then kill you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bottom line
There is a lot of goofy little bugs with this, but I'm pretty sure that somebody somewhere might find an interesting thing that these can do that we are all overlooking. Anyways... after this long-winded post explaining why I don't think it will work, I bid you all farewell.