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Author Topic: [Milan - 29/05/05] - Results - T1-Togs kill all  (Read 4333 times)
MaxxMatt
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« on: May 30, 2005, 03:21:40 am »

Hi man,

I don't know how to "translate" this results to you at our last top8, but...
.. uhm...

these are the results...

Top8 Results

1) Lorenzo Fedeli - T1Tog
2) Filippo Grigatti - T1Tog
3) Valerio Pisoni - T1Tog
4) Daniel Bernini - Mono-U
5) Alessandro Navone - T1Tog
6) David beduzzi - WelderMUD.dec with a lot of HATE maindecked in it.
7) Sguglia Mauro - T1Tog
8) Damien Levet - T1Tog


You read right...
6 Atog among the 8 Top8's players...
And almost ANY one of them played with the same list ( minor differences didn't count a lot ).


The ONLY real things that accomunate them all is only a SINGLE ( sad ) thing.
...A lot of Duresses and FoWs to stop early threats
...A lot of Intuitions to Speed-Up "the Combo"
...Tinker for DSC to get rid of all those pretty stupid hate.dec that usually could interfere between Atog and his possible Wins.

In the past, a lot of players opted to shift from Atog to other decks because of the not so good matchup against decks like Zoo, Sligh, Fish, Welder.dec, Rod.dec, Pyllar.dec, Hate.dec and so on.

Before the Paris event in May, some of ours players ( the smart's ones ) cut an Atog and Mystical for Tinker and DSC, shifting the Mystical Tutor into their side, in order to speed up "the combo" thanks to the high number of Wishes...

This move was THABOMB!
It exploded as soon as it was "implemented" into theirs build and only a week later ALL the Atog players commuted their decks into this one.

These specific Milan results ( that I predicted to my teammates far more than it happened yesterday ) are the confirmation of this path.

If one of the strongest deck ever built, is able to by-pass all the possible hate with A SINGLE strong card ( Tinker ) , I think that there are only a few things that can be done to let us survinve this trend:

1) A come back of Bazaars.dec
2) A come back of Old:Style:Welders.dec with strong denial plans
3) A stronger attention to put against this fat.
4) DSC in every deck to, at least try to stall out a bit the game
5) More combo, but a type of combo, RESILIENT to Duresses-Drains-FoWs-Wishes

On the other hand, Saviours of Kamigawa is going to give to any Atog.Players, the Peething Needle, a Bazaar and Welders blocker. Sad


In Paris, the Atog players lost to:

1) Storm.dec
2) Bazaar.dec
3) BirdShit.dec ( if I can remember well... )
4) Unlucky draws

No Gifts, no Welders, no Oath, no other elegant strategies could be able to steal more than one games to them.

As Rudy state last time I posted something about Tog, I think that it is time ( at least for us ) to do something against those "Players"


Smile


I'll add more details and reports as soon as I can translate them.

MaxxMatt









Edit. Some Top8s names.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 07:26:19 am by MaxxMatt » Logged

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Machinus
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2005, 03:24:52 am »

Wow. Thanks for the report.
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2005, 12:35:23 pm »

Hmm, these are pretty transparent results; how many people attended this thing?
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2005, 01:27:11 pm »

Transparent?  I don't see how.

Where is the link to the decklists?
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2005, 02:32:06 pm »

Quote
how many people attended this thing?

81 people according to theabyss.biz (29 Maggio Risultati torneo Milano 81 partecipanti)

Quote
Where is the link to the decklists?

The decklist aren't up for this tournament at theabyss and it looks like they wont post it there any time soon. Maybe MaxxxMatt can get a hold on them. But they will probably be very close to this list:

3 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

3 Duress
1 Mind Twist
4 Mana Drain
4 Force Of Will

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis

3 Intuition
4 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Psychatog


Sideboard:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Firestorm
1 Fling
1 Gush
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack And Ruin
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Snuff Out
1 Stifle
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2005, 03:29:11 pm »

Explosives is a terrific card but FOUR wish???
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2005, 03:48:30 pm »

Explosives is a terrific card but FOUR wish???

They have been running 4 wishes in Italy since like, forever. I myself have always been satisfied with 3, but I know my teammate Tom also believes 4 wishes are really great for the deck. So I guess it must be true.
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2005, 06:19:08 pm »

I would like to help you understand some of those results better than I did until now, but I have the same data that you have available at now.

After a bit of talking/writing with my friends and teammates, I can sum up a few more lines about this naturally expected "tragedy" .



Theorem
1) As I saw, realized and analized at almost any level, surfing and browing into the Net, all the countries ( at Italy isn't different from any other country ) are affected by the "Ctrl-C-Ctrl-V-Mania"

Strictly Connected Consequences

1.1) As for Gifts.dec in Germany or for Welders.dec in France or for Fast-Storm-Combo.dec in USA or whatever you have considered "strange" sometimes, a lot of people play what they saw that won in the past weeks, enough to guarantee some edges of victories.

1.2) They don't care about mastering the deck better than anything/anyone. They simply pick-up a strong deck that net-decked can possibly do well, weighting both his inherent strenght and the number of players playing the SAME deck.

1.3) A few players among the worst who did this ( commonly used ) reasoning can be able to do well with the deck if the deck is sufficiently strong to go around hyper-fine gaming problems

1.4) A few player think about what/who/which could be the possible difficulties on playing against "specific decks", maybe the same that they are playing at now, maybe some totally different archetypes: they are able to think about those upper-level problems because  they both tests and predict a lot and think a-head

1.5) Those players are usually the large majority of the ones that Top8s.

1.6) Sadly enough ( if we are considering the NUMBER of people gathered into this statement.. Sad) they cannot fill up all the Top8s places.




@@@@@@@@
Back in Italy
@@@@@@@@
Welcome into this "not so stagnat as it could appear after a superficial look"

The players that follow the trend can be found through the entire breakdown ( maybe perfectly mixed from the 1st positions to the last one available ).

All of them found that Atog+DSC is ( at now ) the "panacea of all the evils". So they mindlessly decided to play it, at any costs.

A lot of people THIS time, chose to play Atog ( At least 2-5-30 players, with the few data that I have available at now ). Not to be frightned by this choices: during the past weeks, a massive number of players decided to play TPS and/or Welder.dec and/or Oath and/or other deck but ALL AT ONCE!

The players that merely follow the wave didn't reached the Top8, without one or two exclusion

The ones that had a bit of foresight, thought about this possible Atog's come back and choosed to play different configurations for their decks, maindecked more Deeps, more discards effects and LoA, aside with a lot of grave hate for Bazaar.decs and Welders.dec ( @Smemmen, as soon as I have detailed lists, I would post them, but I think that Grand Inquisitor was talking about the "trasparence of the Winning Continuity of that Atog's build more than a possible "trasparence of my few words" Wink)

These players are the ones that usually won for the first time with the "old" Atog build into the past weeks, so, I'm not so stupefied by seeing them again in the winning places.





@@@@
The only "common-element" that I can find in all the build that won at now is the pair "Tinker+DSC", coupled with any one valid strategies.
OTOH, the only REAL winner into these decks is Mana Drain coupled with a cheap draw engine, for which Intuition can be considered the best unrestricted Tutor 
@@@@





@Machinus.
Are you using the acception "Terrific" in a positive or negative way?
From my experience, a single E.E. into the maindeck and a couple of valid ways to Tutor it, can let you survive against some situations that would have brought you into a sure lost ( CotVs, fast Welders, fast Weenies, possibly Oath and so on.
The full set of Wishes is, again, one of the reasons of a so high winning rate against "a lot of deck" that this atog's build can boast since a lot of time. Flexibility and Raw power coupled in a single Blue Istant speed Spell.

@Lymph.
Your data are almost all exact.
I think that the people were 86, but Benga wrote 81 into the News of our site. OTOH, it doesn't count a lot...

The things that should be LARGELY underlined are:

1) There were only 4-5 TPS into the whole field
2) There were onyl 2-3 Bazaar.dec into the whole field
3) A lot among the Welders.dec unluckily cancelled each others because of mirror matches
4) Some among our usual best players opted not to play. The ones that played chose Atog instead of other decks, completely cancelling the mirage of a "balanced tourney".





OTOH, the complessive high number of Atog.decs is a perfectly intuitable reason for their flood into the TOp8s, especially if coupled with the choice of our best players to play it again.




MaxxMatt









« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 06:25:31 pm by MaxxMatt » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2005, 06:49:51 pm »

By transparent, I just mean that the results have a certain precision to them, so that I could safely guess that a decent number of the following would be true:

Quote
a lot of people play what they saw that won in the past weeks

Quote
pick-up a strong deck that net-decked can possibly do well


Quote
There were onyl 2-3 Bazaar.dec into the whole field

Quote
Some among our usual best players opted not to play



I would be surprised if the actual lists had as little graveyard hate as the one Maxx posted.

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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2005, 07:29:06 pm »

I would add only a little thing to which I had not thight before.

In this post, I told you about "a few Bazaar.dec" with only the Dragon.dec in my mind.
Aj3j3 ( aka Lorenzo Fedeli ) told me that there are some Infestation-Bazaar.decs too, that should be added to the other amount of decks with Bazaars, rising the total to at least to 9-13.



MaxxMatt
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2005, 08:18:26 pm »

I personally, think that Tog is undervalued in the USA - so I have understanding of their results.

OTOH, the previous tog lists had only 2 Intuition which has me UTTERLY BAFFLED.

It actually makes me angry to see lists with only two intuition.  So I'm really glad they fixed that.  They made a mistake in only playing 2 Deeps instead of 3.  Deep is SO good. 

The true weakness of Tog is:

a) Fish
b) Gifts/Collossus variant

If either of those decks shows up, these Tog lists should dissipate.
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2005, 04:36:47 am »

Hi again,

this time I can add some reports to support more details about this event.
sorry if they aren't so specific, but I cannot write things not spoken... Wink


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Lorenzo Fedeli's Report - 1st Place
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


Turn 1 - T1Tog
Game 1

Lorenzo mulliganed once, but kept a good hand with some cheap drawers and discard effects. Intuition for 3 Deeps was the key winning move. After that spell, all the other resolved thanks through the massive card's advantage.
Game 2
Lorenzo mulliganed once again. 2xDeeps went pitched to FoWs this time to stop an early Tinker-->DSC and he could not apply the commonly used Intuitions--Deeps plan to abuse of his deck. As for game 1, a bit more of experience from his own side, take the distance. A resolved Y.Will with a couple of counters in hand, forced the opponent's  to conceding the entire game.

1-0-0


Turn 2 - T1Tog   
Game 1

Lorenzo mulliganed again, but this time with DSC in hand too. The opponent had a quick start with a Tutor for Ancestral with counter backup. Lorenzo FoWilled his Ancestral but he FoWillled back too. After a couple of turn, he realized that he cannot recover anymore and he conceded without losing time for the two next games
Game 2
Lorenzo mulliganed once again, but this time his opponent mulliganed too. They exchanged the roles used during the previous game and Lorenzo played a quick Ancestrall with Backup that was followed by a couple of Deeps. Winning the "draw-game" is equal to win the entire game
Game 3
Lorenzo astonishingly enough to be true DIDN'T mulligan this time. He started with some accelerations holding a couple of strong draw spells into his hand. His opponent made a strategic crucial error depriving his board of the needed UU to Drain Lorenzo's spells only to fetch a dual before it was needed. Lorenzo responded to the fetch trigger with a FoF that went uncountered. After this mistake, the opponent played too aggressivel, trying to recover the gap that FoF produced to himy, even if with a nearly active LoA in play. When he was with 6 cards in hand and instead of waiting a couple of turns to start drawing free cards, he played an additional drawer that went countered and he didn't reach the "LoA's safe plateau" at all. In the end, Lorenzo won.

2-0-0


Turn 3 - David "InJ" Beduzzi - Welder MUD-with-hate-that-Top8ed
Game1

David won the dice roll and Lorenzo mulliganed again. David played MW, Lotus, Metalworker and Sphere of Resistance. In the two following turns he resolved 2 Ankh of Mishra and a Tangle Wire. His advantage was too overhelming to continue playing. OTOH, he topdecked another  quick threat and won with ease with it.
Game 2
Lorenzo didn't remember this game so well. He remember about him playing only draw-go for a couple of turns, that is usually deadly against MW-based decks. In the end, InJ had Ankh x2, Pyllar, Defence Grid, Sphere of Resistance x2 on board and killed him with Sharpenel Blast x2.

2-0-1


Turn 4 - Giampiero "Jessica" Ronzo - Ur-Control-Slavery
Game 1

Lorenzo resolved a first turn Intuition for 3 Deeps and the game went over briefly after that.
Game 2
Jessica resolved a first turn Mindslaver without Welder backup. Lorenzo hide some key spells thank to Brainstorm and the Slaved turn ended without too many problems. Jessica, unluckily for him, topdecked zero threats after this first one and a quick recover of Atog translate a possible C-Slavery win in a beatiful Atog domination

3-0-1


Turn 5 - RG-Beatz-with-hate-spells
Game 1

Lorenzo played a first turn Duress and saw the opponent with nothing  more discardable than a single Rancor and a little man. Zoo topdecked cards after cards in this precise sequence: 1 turn Hidden Gibbons, 2 turn Null Rod, 3 turn Wasteland and Wild Mongrel. He won.
Game 2
Zoo started again with land Gibbons, then land Rod, then Wasteland Mongrel, then Pyllar. OTOH, This time Lorenzo had more cheap answers to opponent's weenies and hate spells, so after a couple of well shooted bouncers and a Firestorm over the remaining creatures, he stabilized until turn 30 when he hardcarst DSC and Walked into game 3.
Game 3
Zoo started again with land Gibbons, then land Rod, then Wasteland Pyllar, then creatures. While the Lorenzo's deck seemed mesmerized by the opponent's one, the Zoo player made a couple of crucial play errors, that let Lorenzo recover faster and better than he could have thought after a so strong start. Zoo lose.

4-0-1


Turn 6 - Gigi "DJ501" Bonaiuto
Game 1

Lorenzo started with a first turn Duress that showed him an "medium" hand consisting of: MW, Mox, Smokestack, Trini, Wire, Ancient Tomb and CotV. He took out Trini and laid his own acceleration. The match took a bit to be decided but at some point in the middle of the game, Lorenzo reached to Wish for R&R killing the opponent Smokestack for 2. He played Walk and Tinker too in the subsequent turn. At that point, DJ501 had a Juggy on board that had to kill-himself against DSC and he is at 4 life points, while Lorenzo was at 2. DJ's last smokestack cleaned the entire board and while Lorenzo topdecked 2 lands in a row, DJ topdecked MW that let him resolve a Triskelion, with Lorenzo at 1 life point and with an useless FoW in hand.
Game 2
Lorenzo mulliganed again to six but started with Ancestral Recall. DJ started with Trinisphere instead. That was followed by a second turn Metalworker. With 3 mana open during his 3 turn, Lorenzo resolved a R&R on those 2 threats and the game almost ended here. A quick Atog won the game.
Game 3
DJ started with a first turn Metalworker which resolved and Lorenzo followed that move with a first turn LoA. Lorenzo let DJ resolve and activate a second turn Jester's Cap because he was holding an Atog in his hand. The game took a lot but at some time, Lorenzo started to recur Shattering Pulse on opponent's artifact and when he had the needed lethal damage with his last Atog, he Flinged it for the win.

5-0-1


Turn 7 - Oath with White
Game 1

He started with Tundra and Jet, revealing a possible 3C-C matchup ( that Lorenzo considered largely favourable for Atog  at now ). He was wrong. Lorenzo played LoA, draw a card and tried to resolve a Lotus. Opponent Dazed his Lotus. With a blue mana in his pool he Impulsed during his EoT and his second move was lying an Orchard and Oath.
Lorenzo both resolved a couple of artifact mana AND Draw cards from his LoA and AKs AND played two turns thanks to Walk. He Duressed the opponent's hand seeing nothing of consequence. The Oath's trigger revealed a DSC and with ease, Lorenzo bounced them back to the opponent's hand during his EoT, with an active LoA and an hand full of things...
Game 2
Oath started with Volcanic Mox and Pyllar! Surprised
Lorenzo Duressed him twice and started drawing cards, using his life point's buffer aggressively, espcecially after seeing twice the opponent's hand and after he deprived him of his own bombs. During an EoT, Lorenzo Wished for Bouncer and Pyllar come back into the opponent's hand. Lorenzo was a 5 life points. Duress on opponent's Oath and double counter on Oath#2 and Pyllar sealed the game.

6-0-1


Quarterfinals - 4C-HulkSmash!
Game 1

Lorenzo kept an hand consisting only of LoA and a lot of coloured spells. Opponent's had not denial plan and he didn't start with a Duress, that would have slowed Lorenzo more than any other thing. A slow start with LoA is usually >>>>>> than a slow start without LoA. So Lorenzo won.
Game 2
Lorenzo had a large draw superiority both on a quality level ( more deeps ) and on a quantity level ( more deeps too ). His opponent saw only AKs and no Intuitions, so he was forced to start drawing with them. He played AK, Lorenzo responded with Intuition, he ReBed the Intuition and Lorenzo Mis-D the ReB on opponent's AK. Intuition resolved and Lorenzo resolved unstopped larger AKs that won the entire game for him.

7-0-1

Semifinals - MonoU
Game 1

Lorenzo started with Land and Ancestral which meet a FoW but he FoWilled back too. MonoU tried to apply at his best a good denial plan on the opponent's dual lands and contemporarily tyring some of his own istant speed drawers. Lorenzo's discards effects slowly devaasted the opponent's hand and an Intuition for Lotus, Walk and Demonic sealed the entire game.
Game 2
He started with Mox, Lotus, Ancestral, which Lorenzo tried to Mis-D on him and with a TFK in response, in order to find the needed FoW. FoW didn't show up, so Lorenzo draw 3 and the game went largely better. Lorenzo's Duresses selectively discarded opponent's counters and he let him resolve a Tinker for DSC which went bounced back during the following EoT. He resolved a large Y Will for the win as usual.

8-0-1

Final - T1Tog - Filippo "Twister" Grigatti
Game 1&2

Twister conceded to his teammate the victory "this time" Wink

9-0-1





@@@@@@
Other reports would come...
@@@@@@















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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2005, 11:40:59 am »

Quote
The true weakness of Tog is:

a) Fish
b) Gifts/Collossus variant

If either of those decks shows up, these Tog lists should dissipate.

Re: the NE US metagame.


Don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for Hulk.  However, I think other combo-control decks have increased Hulk's strengths while mitigating or at least maintaining its weaknesses.
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2005, 01:01:17 pm »

I love the idea of cutting green from Tog to enhance the unstable mana base that the deck has had since it's beginning. Wasteland was always a pain for me when playing Tog, as a result I just stopped playing it for other Mana Drain decks and Ritual combo.
  I do have a concern though. Has anyone tried out these greenless versions and missed berserk in the Sideboard? Fling, to me anyway, seems like it can just be plain slow, especially in certain situations where you can't drag the game on any longer to pump up the hulk's power and you just want to win right then and there.
  Berserk doubles your togs power after discarding your hand and graveyard, and then gives it trample. It's just easier to make your tog bigger with Berserk. How do anyone of you feel about the lack of green? Steve, being a huge Tog player in the past and written articles about Tog I would love to hear your opinion on the Fling Vs. Berserk subject.
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2005, 02:46:26 pm »

Berserk is only needed to trample over creatures, only if there are blockers it is superior to fling. Consequently it was used to race aggro and win before them, now with tinker this is not an issue anymore since colossus tramples itself and it is easier to race aggro with him and you donīt need card advantage.

The other useful green card are artifact mutation and ground seal. I donīt feel furnace to be very inferior to ground seal if you are running graveyad hate (I donīt know if itīs worth). Artifact mutation is very good against big artifacts and itīs a secoundary kill condition against these decks but shatering pulse with 5 mana on table is usually game against normal stacks/MUD/uba mask/workshop aggro build, anyways i found artifact mutation to be the best card that green can offer if you run tinker-colossus maindeck but overal I would cut green
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2005, 09:42:38 am »

I'm wondering why people haven't started putting maze of ith in their sideboard if Tog is so prevalent? The Tog deck posted doesn't seem to have any way to deal with it other than time walk Wink
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2005, 10:23:19 am »

And the fling in the sideboard. Maze of Ith has never been that great against tog and with Fling in the board, it's even worse.
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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2005, 11:03:21 am »

And the fling in the sideboard. Maze of Ith has never been that great against tog and with Fling in the board, it's even worse.

Ahh thanks.  Wink
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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2005, 12:25:32 pm »

Haven't you guys learned how to beat Tog by now? Sad
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