Black Fish

[martyr]

Please try Contagion. It doesn't help WTF if they Vial in a Mongrel to block your Negator so much (They have to ditch more cards if they want to wreck your board), but it DOES kill Mongrel, because the counters stick. It also makes your FCG games a lot less one-sided. I very rarely play black decks that don't have 4x Contagion, at least in the board.

[neenjafus]

that's what I had thought, was really puzzled by people saying they could attack with negator twice

[TheMuffinMan]

It seems that if we are looking to add a decent one of to the deck, nether void should be given some consideration. With sinkholes and mana denial strategies, its possible that dropping this could just end games. Coupled with chalice set for 0 that is pretty much game against combo. 1 slot main deck with Consolation, demonic and possibly vampiric might make it a worthy addition. And aether vial + void is some good.

If we want to continue with mana denial strategy it is possible that including fetches + badlands would allow for gorilla shaman. That is just a thought. Or, a white splash could get you swords (anti oath),  Weathered Wayfarer for the mana denial strategy. This would need to be played with crucible though and possibly seal. Although vindicate is slow it can be ld or oath kill. Just thinking of some outs against a popular problem deck.

[DeMarki]

I would suggest running at least 12 disruption spells. Duress and Sinkhole are a must and I would also suggest including 4 copies of Hymn to Tourach. Come on guys yhis spell is amazing! It can cripple an opponent on the first turn if 2 lands are ditched.

Creatures:
I would run 4 Phyrexian Negators  + 4 Withered wretch(I don't like this but it's a good metagame cards vs various decks) + 4 Nantuko Shade, I know it's slow for the first turn byt it's a mid to late game bomb! How about running Hypnotic Specters? Would that be a bad idea?

Card Draw:
Night's Whispers is a mediocre card. It's a lame sorcery that gives you card advantage +1 card for 2 life. Bleh! Necropotence is far better, faster, more aggresive. It's simply broken. Has anyone thought of Skeletal Scrying? This card is simply amazing, it's an instant and you could draw more than 2 cards unlike the Whispers. It's really powerfull.

Control:
3 Jitte, 4 Chalices should be enough BUT you should try out Powder Keg too. It removes cheap creatures & artifacts too! sometimes even multiple cards.

[absolute]

I would suggest running at least 12 disruption spells. Duress and Sinkhole are a must and I would also suggest including 4 copies of Hymn to Tourach. Come on guys yhis spell is amazing! It can cripple an opponent on the first turn if 2 lands are ditched.

This would also spell disaster for you if you drop a slaver/sundering titan/crucible/trinisphere in the graveyard, or manage to setup an opponents Yawgmoth's Will midgame. Hymn generally will not hurt, but rather help, most welder decks, and with reanimator and fish using threshold, hymn would not only be a bad move, but it would most likely cost this deck the game by it's own doing. Running Sinkhole is a mana investment that that will not pay off, because instead of doing something to your opponents life total, or raping specific cards from their hand, you are destroying land drops that probably will only allow them to drop moxen to accelerate through the sinkholes.

Creatures:
I would run 4 Phyrexian Negators  + 4 Withered wretch(I don't like this but it's a good metagame cards vs various decks) + 4 Nantuko Shade, I know it's slow for the first turn byt it's a mid to late game bomb! How about running Hypnotic Specters? Would that be a bad idea?

How about you leave the mindset of sui black and realise that random discarding is something that may rob your opponent of their hand, but also will rob you of precious time you save by removing bombs with cards like fiend. So to answer your question, yes it would be a horrible idea to play a 2/2 flyer for 3 when you could actually beat with other cards in the deck.

Card Draw:
Night's Whispers is a mediocre card. It's a lame sorcery that gives you card advantage +1 card for 2 life. Bleh! Necropotence is far better, faster, more aggresive. It's simply broken. Has anyone thought of Skeletal Scrying? This card is simply amazing, it's an instant and you could draw more than 2 cards unlike the Whispers. It's really powerfull.

Skrying was mentioned early on, and would cost 4 before it gained an advantage over whisper, and with so many permanents in the deck, it would be hard to use scrying multiple times in one turn.

Control:
3 Jitte, 4 Chalices should be enough BUT you should try out Powder Keg too. It removes cheap creatures & artifacts too! sometimes even multiple cards.

Again, this deck runs mainly on vial/chalice/Jitte/creatures, so the powder keg would take out many of your threats as a trade off to take out maybe a few of theirs. Also, the keg takes turns to set up that you probably wont have at the time, and doesn't slow down their acceleration efficiently.

Overall, you are trying to suggest making this deck into sui black, which has already been proven to be a dead archetype with cards like welder, reanimators, and yawgmoth's will in the format.

[DeMarki]

This spell is also spells disaster for you if you drop a slaver/sundering titan/crucible/trinisphere in the graveyard, or manage to setup an opponents Yawgmoth's Will midgame. Hymn generally will not hurt, but rather help, most welder decks, and with reanimator and fish using threshold, hymn would not only be a bad move, but it would most likely cost this deck the game by it's own doing.

Dear absolute, if you're running 4 Withered wreches main that shouldn't be an issue and Hymn would remain as broken as it was a couple of years ago. I would suggest that 4 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapies are a decent choice too, but I'm not sure if Therapy>Hymn.

Skrying was mentioned early on, and would cost 4 before it gained an advantage over whisper, and with so many permanents in the deck, it would be hard to use scrying multiple times in one turn.

I think that 2 Skeletal Scrying & 1 Necropotence should be more than enough for this deck. Adding a 3rd or even a 4th Scrying would be a waste of cards and slots but 2 is the optimal number and it's way better than the lame whispers.

Again, this deck runs mainly on vial/chalice/Jitte/creatures, so the powder keg would take out many of your threats as a trade off to take out maybe a few of theirs. Also, the keg takes turns to set up that you probably wont have at the time, and doesn't slow down acceleration.

You're right about that. Anyway what do you think about Contagion? Am I the only one that thinks that this card is very powerfull and fits perfectly into any monoblack aggro deck? (And it's for free)

[Sundberg]

You're right about that. Anyway what do you think about Contagion? Am I the only one that thinks that this card is very powerfull and fits perfectly into any monoblack aggro deck? (And it's for free)

I agree, contaigon is a superb card vs fish(and all the variants) but it's a sb card...so add maby 3 of them to sb and u rule! 

[absolute]

This spell is also spells disaster for you if you drop a slaver/sundering titan/crucible/trinisphere in the graveyard, or manage to setup an opponents Yawgmoth's Will midgame. Hymn generally will not hurt, but rather help, most welder decks, and with reanimator and fish using threshold, hymn would not only be a bad move, but it would most likely cost this deck the game by it's own doing.

Dear absolute, if you're running 4 Withered wreches main that shouldn't be an issue and Hymn would remain as broken as it was a couple of years ago. I would suggest that 4 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapies are a decent choice too, but I'm not sure if Therapy>Hymn.

Skrying was mentioned early on, and would cost 4 before it gained an advantage over whisper, and with so many permanents in the deck, it would be hard to use scrying multiple times in one turn.

I think that 2 Skeletal Scrying & 1 Necropotence should be more than enough for this deck. Adding a 3rd or even a 4th Scrying would be a waste of cards and slots but 2 is the optimal number and it's way better than the lame whispers.

Again, this deck runs mainly on vial/chalice/Jitte/creatures, so the powder keg would take out many of your threats as a trade off to take out maybe a few of theirs. Also, the keg takes turns to set up that you probably wont have at the time, and doesn't slow down acceleration.

You're right about that. Anyway what do you think about Contagion? Am I the only one that thinks that this card is very powerfull and fits perfectly into any monoblack aggro deck? (And it's for free)

1. If you cast the hymn before the wretch that is enough random discard to allow your opponent to make use of, and if you drop wretch first then the next best optimal play would be negator or jitte. I just dont see how the tempo produced by the hymn will be better than a 3rd turn jitte/negator in comparison. The card isn't fully weak, but it just doesn't fit the gameplan of the deck. Therapy punishes oath, and makes solid use of other decks as well.

2. Scrying as a two of with necro would be interesting to test, but for those that run the chains it would be hard to make good use of the scrying later on. I'm not knocking the scryings, but only a few will really be useful (I didn't run more than 2-3 whispers after chains had been mentioned anyway).

3. Contagion I've been playing as a sideboard card for some time already, and it is indeed very useful in certain matchups, no disagreement there.

I mentioned a splash for another color some time ago, although it was ignored I believe it can solve some of the decks weakness, and atleast make the oath and aggro matches possible.

 

[DeMarki]

Contagion I've been playing as a sideboard card for some time already, and it is indeed very useful in certain matchups, no disagreement there.

I agree, contaigon is a superb card vs fish(and all the variants) but it's a sb card...so add maby 3 of them to sb and u rule! 

Why do you believe that Contagion is a SB card? Tell me one reason why monoblack decks shouldn't run these main. It's for free, it can take out multiple creatures, it's an instant and it has a great synergy with Negators.

[Sundberg]

Why do you believe that Contagion is a SB card? Tell me one reason why monoblack decks shouldn't run these main. It's for free, it can take out multiple creatures, it's an instant and it has a great synergy with Negators.

Because sometimes it's a dead card (creatureless decks). You would rather draw a threat game1 instead of a dead card, but hey, if your meta is fish, fish,wtf,fish and some more wtf - run them main! 

[DeMarki]

Because sometimes it's a dead card (creatureless decks). You would rather draw a threat game1 instead of a dead card, but hey, if your meta is fish, fish,wtf,fish and some more wtf - run them main!   

I don't think that there are creatureless decks. At least they run a Welder or a DSC or something so I don't think it will ever be a dead card.

Do you think Powder Keg is good enough to run main? (it can destroy all 0 cc artifacts) and I don't run Chalice at all.

[49 Cents]

Why don't you run Chalice..? It is SUCH a big thread, It stops tinker and Welder, and can be set at one after  while..

[DeMarki]

Why don't you run Chalice..? It is SUCH a big thread, It stops tinker and Welder, and can be set at one after  while..

I'm not playing Chalice of the Void for 4 different reasons:

1) My local metagame doesn't run any Power including Moxes and Lotus, so what's the point in setting it to 0?
2) I don't own any Moxes-Lotus and I hate proxies, so I'll never get the tempo advantage that a first turn land, mox, chalice for 0 can offer me.
3) If I set it to 1, it will ruin half of my deck(Rituals, Duress, Therapy, Vamp, Sol Ring etc)
4) If I set it to 2, it will ruin the other half of my deck(Sinkholes, Nantuko, Whispers, Demonic, Powder Keg etc)

So what's the point in running 4 Chalices in my deck??? If you can find a decent reason, please tell me so.

[ROLAND]

With the core of the deck revolving around jitte/chalice/vial/ negator.

Does this deck lose to null rod?

Does it need a decent way to deal with artifacts/ enchantments? 

Just wanted to hear your thoughts.

Roland

[DeMarki]

Is it better to run 3 main Kegs or 4 Contagions? With so many creature based decks lately Contagion would be perhaps a more efficient removal, considering it's an instant and it's for free.

What should I choose between 4 Night's Whispers and 2 Skeletal Scrying? Which one of those is more efficient draw engine?

[the boogie man]

    just for reference, nights whisper is much more efficient, but scrying is objectively more powerful, giving you an arbitrary amount of card advantage points. I'd run whispers, because if this is a tempo deck, you don't want to be waiting until the end of the oponents turn to cast smoething that is going to destroy your graveyard (which you might not have) or eat up your life total. with the fundamental turn being turn 1-2 (I'd say edging toward two) mox land whisper is leagues and worlds ahead of mox land sit-there-and-do-nothing-until-you-play-a-bunch-of-other-things-then-draw-cards. unless that land happened to be a fetchland, in which case you could cycle it for 1, which really isn't all that appealing to me. not to mention that every scrying you use diminishes the graveyard for the next one.

    not to mention that, because this is a tempo oriented deck, you will generally be winning by the time scrying matters, or drawing a bunch of cards won't really dig you out of a situation like it does in control.

    I'm not saying its a bad card per se, just not good enough in this instance. I like whispers because it generates velocity^(r) and card advantage with minimal cost.

[DeMarki]

Crucible is nice, but while the deck has a good mana-denial component with 5 Strip effects, I'm not sure that it wants to make that a more important theme, cutting some cards and either losing agressiveness with its dudes or cutting back on its discard, since those are more important themes in the deck.

You're wrong! Adding just one crucible is never a bad choice, if you run strips/fetches.
Just think of the awesome strip/waste lock. i don't say just add 2-3 crucibles, that would be a waste of slots and probably dead cards, but adding one main is quite a descent choice.

[g0tenks00]

at this point, I would really like to see a working decklist reflecting the changes we've come up with over the last 5 pages of this thread. i don't think i know enough about what has been discussed to post one, but i'd really like to see a revised list.

@ deMarki: no doubt, a lone crucible will most likely not be a dead draw, and isn't necessarily bad, but I don't know if it is good enough to use 1 slot for a lone crucible when we could be using it for other tempo oriented cards that help the fish gameplan along.

[the boogie man]

    I agree with gotenks here, the crucible is sideboard slots at best, because most of the time it will sit there as you play better things, then sit on the board after a while, unless you are playing against control. against workshop, it comes down way too late to do much good, because workshopis generally unused after the first 2-3 turns. it could be used to save your lands, but you're monoblack, and not very susceptible to wasteland. honestly, if you are mono black and you lose to wasteland, you suck real bad. and replaying wsatelands is fairly moot, because you usually can ride the first few. against aggro, they will just play a bunch of creatures, or run you over with the ones they already played while you saved up three mana. and against wtf, vial throws stuff up in the face of wasteland

    and don't run contagion main, they can be extremely dead vs. a lot of decks, and they are card disadvantage , barring taking a 2-for-1. I'm not even sure that I'd run the kegs. I'd say that the jittes should be enough.

[Johnni86]

        4 Night's Whisper
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Necropotence
        4 Chalice of the Void
        3 Umezawa's Jitte
        4 Phyrexian Negator
        4 Withered Wretch
        4 Mesmeric Fiend
        4 Cabal Therapy
        4 Duress
        3 Chains
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        7 Swamp
        4 Black Sac Land

From my point of view this would be an optimal build the Chains are very good and the therapy is good even if your not flashing it back
I think that the deck needs Sac land because in the late game you don't wnat to draw too many land
The crypt and the ring are both very good expecially because of the negators Jittes and chalices and wretches
I think the deck's goal should be a quick negator and to delay you opponent with the hand distruction
It may also be a good idea to splash blue for walk, ancestral and maybe a few other things just to up the power level

[kedi]

Inspired, this is my version

//Mana Base (21):
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
6 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual

//Beats (14):
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Nezumi Graverobber
4 Withered Wretch
4 Mesmeric Fiend

//Savage (25):
4 Æther Vial
4 Unmask
3 Duress
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Night’s Whisper
4 Jitte
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence

[g0tenks00]

The factories are an interesting addition to the manabase, and it makes sense since it is used in traditional fish builds. I'm surprised these weren't incorporated earlier, but maybe I glossed over some reason for not running them earlier on in this thread. Anyway, this is my current build:

Mana (23)
6 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures (14)
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Withered Wretch
3 Skittering Skirge

Artifacts (7)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Disruption (13)
4 Duress
4 Night's Whisper
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Edict

Broken (3)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Mind Twist

This has worked very well for me. Yes, there are no vials in this build, but I felt that 2 edicts were necessary in my meta, and the mind twist has proven to be a great must-counter game breaker. Overall I am very happy with the deck thus far. I would like to get feedback on this list and take the time now to ask some general questions:

-how important is the presence of aether vial? yes, it helps a lot in certain matchups, but what do you lose by replacing it with something else such as extra disruption, etc.?
-given that the deck runs dark ritual and some builds run a limited number of game breaking spells, can & should there be space for yawgmoth's will as a late-game strategy?
-what are people's thoughts on sideboarding options?
-any other general comments or new directions this deck may be going in?

[neenjafus]

vial helps in every matchup.

It gives you a mana free way to play uncounterable creatures at instant speed every turn (if you have one in hand). When is that not good in a creature based deck?

First turn vial lets you use your mana to disrupt every turn after that because you pretty much never have to cast creature spells again. It is also why the deck can run with a low land count.

[absolute]

The factories are an interesting addition to the manabase, and it makes sense since it is used in traditional fish builds. I'm surprised these weren't incorporated earlier, but maybe I glossed over some reason for not running them earlier on in this thread. Anyway, this is my current build:

Mana (23)
6 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures (14)
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Withered Wretch
3 Skittering Skirge

Artifacts (7)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Disruption (13)
4 Duress
4 Night's Whisper
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Edict

Broken (3)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Mind Twist

This has worked very well for me. Yes, there are no vials in this build, but I felt that 2 edicts were necessary in my meta, and the mind twist has proven to be a great must-counter game breaker. Overall I am very happy with the deck thus far. I would like to get feedback on this list and take the time now to ask some general questions:

-how important is the presence of aether vial? yes, it helps a lot in certain matchups, but what do you lose by replacing it with something else such as extra disruption, etc.?
-given that the deck runs dark ritual and some builds run a limited number of game breaking spells, can & should there be space for yawgmoth's will as a late-game strategy?
-what are people's thoughts on sideboarding options?
-any other general comments or new directions this deck may be going in?

1. Vial was a major consideration in order to push the majority of your threats through a wall of counters. This also eleviates the need to strip your opponent of counters, and eliminate their draw and potential threats through it. Vial also allows you to lay down more threats every turn, and put a lot of early pressure through, so that you can get through tough matches.

2. No

3/4. Sideboarding options have already been discussed for the deck, although I personally believe the deck needs another color because it just cannot compete with stronger aggro or combo's which don't rely on their graveyard (dissapearing, but still a valid concern).

Another large problem that the factories present is the lack of the ability to lay down the strongest threats in the deck. It simply isn't reasonable to think you will be reliably casting double duress', or withered wretch on the second turn. Although if the factory route is a must, I would assume the vial would also be an instant inclusion, as well as chains over whispers. Chains is blacks more 'permanent' and threatening standstill, as it can provide a lock component down for your creatures to swing under.

[SecondDeath]

When i initially saw the list for this deck, i found that aether vial was the missing piece in a B/U Fish build I've been working on for a while now.  I took it to a tourney last sunday and did 3-2, losing to oath because of an idiotic play mistake.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
5 Strips
1 swamp
1 island
4 factory
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus

4 chalice
4 aether vial

4 mesmeric fiend
3 negator
4 wither wretch
3 ninja of deep hours

4 standstill
4 force of will
4 duress
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 demonic tutor
1 diabolic edict

While adding blue may burden consistency issues, it helps keep the deck going raher than relying on topdeck mode.  Plus aether vial is a mana fixer anyway.  Sideboard otpions really depend on your metagame, though i recommend that 3 diabolic edict be in there all the time.

One of hte deck's biggest problems is a resolved turn 1 juggernaut.. followed by a welder.  Make sure u have something to take care of workshop aggro on your board.

[madmanmike25]

I am not really pleased with mind twist, hymm is much more efficient and consistent.  Yes, certain games you will be able to twist them for a lot, but come on, lets all remember what drove us to mono black in the first place: first turn dark ritual, duress, hymm to tourach.  That has won about as many games for me as a 1st turn trini in my workshop deck.  I see that fiends have taken this slot and i suppose it is a good choice.  Only problem i see, is when they have a way to kill it(i.e. gempalm, STP, bolts, etc) what can u do? You take the most powerful card for 1 turn(less if they have mana free and an instant), or simply take the anti creature spell and have a 1/1.  Situational.

Hymm is also situation i know, someone mentioned about dropping a titan/other badass artifact for welder bait.  True, it can happen, but its a luck call.  Same principle as the negators.  4 is a luck call hoping they arent playing direct damage.  Hymm was always my prefered method of land destruction over sinkhole.  It is also card advantage and seeing as nights whisper is only ok.(better than scrying with vials to 'cast' creatures).  The wretch/graverobber combo takes care of welder trix lilke nobodys business.  Plus he can become a 4/2 for 2 mana, not bad.  Seems like gg against gifts dex or dragon dex.

my suggestions against oath: Edict or dystopia?  meta call, but dystopia takes care of white too(meddling mages/rootwallas/mongrel) wow, it works against fish too!
tinker: dam thats tough,  i guess i will have to give you guys a blast from the past.  Actually 2 of them.  Before i suggest these cards for a darksteel(edict is already obvious..) take a second to think about it.
ready?  lol ok, paralyze and imprison.  Yeah, i said it.  Hell, i would pay the 1 mana to stop him from attacking, wouldnt u? Since u have critter advantage in numbers with vials, 2 mana for a useless DSteel seems like a no-brainer.  Paralyze is another option, because if its mid game and they have 4 mana handy, you should already have more critters out you can also double paralzye.
since it taps right then, it lets your negators do their thing.  Plus, for the versions that have 4 chalice and 4 sinkholes, good luck getting four mana.  BOTH THESE CARDS COST 1 MANA.  obviously you would NEVER put edicts and these together in the main.
my side would be:
3 dystopia (green fish, oath?) is perish too narrow?
3 engineered plague ( goblin decks, goblin welder)
3 Diabolic edict (oath, tinker/colossus)
3 imprison/paralyze (I would really like to know what everyone thinks about these 2.)
3 ???
Green has cheap efficient creatures that are becomming commonplace, and the other main creature rush comes from goblins and workshops, so im not sure the best anti workshop side option..... help?


if you are running 8 wretch/robber hymm is a must
Also someone said 3 chains was bad main decked?? First off having 2 is never 'dead'.  Think about it, against one chains, you just hold a land or off-color mox to pitch.  You dont get card advantage, but rather get the card you would rather keep.  i.e. you have 2 cards after the draw, you recall yourself, you discard the land/least good card, draw, discard least good card, draw, and repeat once more making is like a 3 card careful study.  TWO chains means they trigger twice, so they discard, discard draw etc.  so they would have to pitch 2 cards to get the first, then it starts to become card disadvantage.  Worst case scenario, you can sack to negator.  THREE maindeck for me, if one is countered(meaning they play blue, meaning they have card draw...) u can cast another.  Heh, i remember i had a combo with Chains of Mephistopheles and anvil of bogardan too but with nezumi shortfangs and the rack. Sorry i have babbled too much, i hope some of this helped so we can work out a solid maindeck for ALL metas not just your tournament(to the guy with no chalice main because no moxen present) thank you

P.S. major props for tryin to animate dead the mono B/sui decks

[absolute]

I am not really pleased with mind twist, hymm is much more efficient and consistent.  Yes, certain games you will be able to twist them for a lot, but come on, lets all remember what drove us to mono black in the first place: first turn dark ritual, duress, hymm to tourach.  That has won about as many games for me as a 1st turn trini in my workshop deck.  I see that fiends have taken this slot and i suppose it is a good choice.  Only problem i see, is when they have a way to kill it(i.e. gempalm, STP, bolts, etc) what can u do? You take the most powerful card for 1 turn(less if they have mana free and an instant), or simply take the anti creature spell and have a 1/1.  Situational.

Only 2 decks are made to kill fiend, fish and r/g beats. In this specific situation the fish/beats player killing your 1/1's over the 2/2's and 5/5 Negator's is a horrible move. Neither deck runs more than 7 hard counters, so the justification behind fiend remains, as it will not help to further their game plan just to get a card back and see another, much larger threat return to the field. Situational? The best I can say is that it will win you games that were otherwise in your opponents favor, especially combo matchups.

Hymm is also situation i know, someone mentioned about dropping a titan/other badass artifact for welder bait.  True, it can happen, but its a luck call.  Same principle as the negators.  4 is a luck call hoping they arent playing direct damage.  Hymm was always my prefered method of land destruction over sinkhole.  It is also card advantage and seeing as nights whisper is only ok.(better than scrying with vials to 'cast' creatures).  The wretch/graverobber combo takes care of welder trix lilke nobodys business.  Plus he can become a 4/2 for 2 mana, not bad.  Seems like gg against gifts dex or dragon dex.

Negator is a kill condition, where hymn will neither deal a point of damage, nor does it have the ability to block opposing threats. Also, if you haven't noticed, most of the builds mentioned do not run negator as a 4 of, and rely more heavily on jitte to win games. Graverobber seems to be less of a threat than skirge does, because the skirge can fly over blockers, and provides more useful as a beatstick. Also, earlier on testing proved in the matches that mattered most... graverobber would be more useful unflipped the whole game, allowing for an attack and the removal of possible threats (lets be serious...graverobbers secondary ability hardly ever proves useful).

my suggestions against oath: Edict or dystopia?  meta call, but dystopia takes care of white too(meddling mages/rootwallas/mongrel) wow, it works against fish too!
tinker: dam thats tough,  i guess i will have to give you guys a blast from the past.  Actually 2 of them.  Before i suggest these cards for a darksteel(edict is already obvious..) take a second to think about it.
ready?  lol ok, paralyze and imprison.  Yeah, i said it.  Hell, i would pay the 1 mana to stop him from attacking, wouldnt u? Since u have critter advantage in numbers with vials, 2 mana for a useless DSteel seems like a no-brainer.  Paralyze is another option, because if its mid game and they have 4 mana handy, you should already have more critters out you can also double paralzye.
since it taps right then, it lets your negators do their thing.  Plus, for the versions that have 4 chalice and 4 sinkholes, good luck getting four mana.  BOTH THESE CARDS COST 1 MANA.  obviously you would NEVER put edicts and these together in the main.
my side would be:
3 dystopia (green fish, oath?) is perish too narrow?
3 engineered plague ( goblin decks, goblin welder)
3 Diabolic edict (oath, tinker/colossus)
3 imprison/paralyze (I would really like to know what everyone thinks about these 2.)
3 ???
Green has cheap efficient creatures that are becomming commonplace, and the other main creature rush comes from goblins and workshops, so im not sure the best anti workshop side option..... help?

Dystopia is a good card vs. fish sure enough, but it's a horrible card against oath. Most of the time the opposing player either counters it or lets it resolve, and brings out a creature that can't be dealth with ( making the dystopia a wasted investment). Paralyze/Imprison would be very good, except you're assuming that you will a)get it past counters and b)get a turn before colossus kills you (as gifts is set up to walk after tinkering up darksteel). The honest answer to dealing with workshop is a green or red splash, I haven't really found any other way to deal with the matchup (although, plague deals with goblins/slaver).

if you are running 8 wretch/robber hymm is a must
Also someone said 3 chains was bad main decked?? First off having 2 is never 'dead'.  Think about it, against one chains, you just hold a land or off-color mox to pitch.  You dont get card advantage, but rather get the card you would rather keep.  i.e. you have 2 cards after the draw, you recall yourself, you discard the land/least good card, draw, discard least good card, draw, and repeat once more making is like a 3 card careful study.  TWO chains means they trigger twice, so they discard, discard draw etc.  so they would have to pitch 2 cards to get the first, then it starts to become card disadvantage.  Worst case scenario, you can sack to negator.  THREE maindeck for me, if one is countered(meaning they play blue, meaning they have card draw...) u can cast another.  Heh, i remember i had a combo with Chains of Mephistopheles and anvil of bogardan too but with nezumi shortfangs and the rack. Sorry i have babbled too much, i hope some of this helped so we can work out a solid maindeck for ALL metas not just your tournament(to the guy with no chalice main because no moxen present) thank you

P.S. major props for tryin to animate dead the mono B/sui decks

Chains has been the equivalent to a black standstill, there has been no argument as to whether or not to play it, the question is how many....

[waSP]

This thread has had a lot of scattershot observations.  There needs to be someone here who is devoted to testing the deck and keeping it focused.  I suggest that you let someone guide the thread so you can answer the questions asked linearly, so it is clear to anyone who wants to read the thread how this deck is evovling, what its problems are and what the build that is suggested by the thread is.  PM around and try to find someone who wants and is able to lead the discussion.

Now, I'll attempt to contribute.  By adding Factory to your mana base, you will find that you draw swamps less than you want to.  Hardcasting your creatures (Skittering Skirge), playing spells (Hymn to Tourach), and using some abilities (Nezumi Graverobber) will be much tougher.  But before I talk more about these, I want to address another point.

This deck is not an aggressive deck.  It is far too slow to be an aggressive deck.  It is supposed to be aggro-control (like Fish).  With that in mind, you have to be able to deal with your opponent's threats.  Winning the game before their threats are realized is not a viable strategy.  Fish wants to play a disruptive strategy and protect those cards.  I'll list some cards I believe fit into the aggro-control vein of the deck.

Chains of Mephistopheles.  This card is an absolute must.  It gives you time against combo (until they can deal with it) and shuts down the card advantage strategies of a lot of decks.  If you think that you need to play Night's Whisper to draw enough threats to win the game, you're playing the wrong deck.  This deck is supposed to play off the weaknesses of other decks (they rely on a draw engine and are disrupted by discard), not tailor itself to any metagame.  If you want an aggro black deck, play Illusionary Mask and Phyrexian Dreadnaughts with a lot of tutors.  How do you protect your disruptive strategy of playing a Chains of Mephistopheles?  You're in black, so discard is the way.

Cabal Therapy.  This card's power increases dramatically if you know what you're doing with it.  If you randomly fire off cards when you play this, it'll seem worthless.  It's meant to be your Duresses 5, 6, 7, and 8.  A turn 1 Dark Ritual Cabal Therapy Chains of Mephistopheles ensure that your opponent will have less game to play with.  If you can identify what the biggest threat is for you, this card is golden.  It also hits Welder when you want it to.

Duress is obvious.

Nezumi Shortfang should be a consideration.  It's a little slow, but you should be trying to play the game at your pace.  It also provides an excellent clock if you manage to get them to 0 cards.  The ability's cost is its major drawback, though.  You may not have the mana to be activating this often enough to make it worth its card advantage.  It will give you a certain inevitability.

Edicts are certainly appropriate for this deck.  You won't stop every threat.  They aren't as good at killing Mongrel as Contagion, but they aren't a negative card advantage.  Without a draw engine (and you can't have one), card disadvantage is bad.  Jitte should be your answer to smaller creatures.

Skittering Skirge is excellent.  Jitte is excellent.  Mesmeric Fiend is excellent.  I don't think you should try to contest these cards.

Has anyone tried to incorporate blue into the deck?  Blue would basically be for the sideboard (Annul?  Energy Flux) and Time Walk.  Time Walk is excellent.

Aether Vial is good, not excellent.  This isn't a deck that draws a lot of bad threats (like non-green Fish), it just draws some good threats.  Aether Vial will get your threats through, but will not be spectacular usually.  It's also only good on turn 1.

I don't think Dark Ritual is absolutely necessary for the deck.  The extra speed isn't that much.  But I haven't tested too much.

[Prometheon]

I've been playing this deck a lot lately and loving it, and I've been using both Skittering Skirge and Skittering Horror (a 4/3 for 3 mana.) The synergy these guys have with Vial is amazing, and they are very, very Aggro, producing a clock (with Jitte) faster than WTF. The only problem I see with the deck is no reactive threat response (ie, if they win the die roll and drop a welder, it hurts.)

Another cool trick, is to vial in Mesmeric Fiend after their draw step. Instant-speed discard! Also, I'm gonna have to go with Hymn over Therapy in this deck, as because of Chains, you want to glean as much pure card advantage as humanly possible from every card, while still maintaining an aggressive roll. Hymn does this perfectly. And the argument about dumping welder targets into their graveyard for them is ridiculous with 4 wretches maindeck.

Keep up the awesome work with this super-cool deck.

[absolute]

This thread has had a lot of scattershot observations.  There needs to be someone here who is devoted to testing the deck and keeping it focused.  I suggest that you let someone guide the thread so you can answer the questions asked linearly, so it is clear to anyone who wants to read the thread how this deck is evovling, what its problems are and what the build that is suggested by the thread is.  PM around and try to find someone who wants and is able to lead the discussion.

There has been a couple of us that have tested, and continue to test the deck as new developments and suggestions arrise. I have tested nearly every matchup so far, and the only 'problem' decks you face are oath, fcg, and workshop aggro. Other fish decks have proven slow by comparison, and if you can get chains/jitte/negator on the board, you will most likely dominate their field. So far, the last portion of this thread has only been random decklists with little to no reports on specific results and improvements on the problem matchups the deck has (thus, are not worth addressing).

Now, I'll attempt to contribute.  By adding Factory to your mana base, you will find that you draw swamps less than you want to.  Hardcasting your creatures (Skittering Skirge), playing spells (Hymn to Tourach), and using some abilities (Nezumi Graverobber) will be much tougher.  But before I talk more about these, I want to address another point.

Factory was a horrible idea, and I've already stated the card hurt the bomb spells this deck needs to resolve early, although Graverobber seems to be comming up among everybody as a creature in this deck. The primary creature base has, and should be, Fiend/Negator/Wretch/Skirge. Hymn to Tourach is always horrible for me, and honestly 4 chalice, 3 chains, 4 duress, 4 Fiend, and possibly some therapies has been enough disruption, allowing for the decks main plan to procede without relying too much on raping your opponents hand. After chains hits, you only need to hit specific threats, and counters mean nothing with a vial on the board.

This deck is not an aggressive deck.  It is far too slow to be an aggressive deck.  It is supposed to be aggro-control (like Fish).  With that in mind, you have to be able to deal with your opponent's threats.  Winning the game before their threats are realized is not a viable strategy.  Fish wants to play a disruptive strategy and protect those cards.  I'll list some cards I believe fit into the aggro-control vein of the deck.

Chains of Mephistopheles.  This card is an absolute must.  It gives you time against combo (until they can deal with it) and shuts down the card advantage strategies of a lot of decks.  If you think that you need to play Night's Whisper to draw enough threats to win the game, you're playing the wrong deck.  This deck is supposed to play off the weaknesses of other decks (they rely on a draw engine and are disrupted by discard), not tailor itself to any metagame.  If you want an aggro black deck, play Illusionary Mask and Phyrexian Dreadnaughts with a lot of tutors.  How do you protect your disruptive strategy of playing a Chains of Mephistopheles?  You're in black, so discard is the way.

The single most devestating card in the deck, there is no arguing this is house against everything but goblins and r/g beats.

Cabal Therapy.  This card's power increases dramatically if you know what you're doing with it.  If you randomly fire off cards when you play this, it'll seem worthless.  It's meant to be your Duresses 5, 6, 7, and 8.  A turn 1 Dark Ritual Cabal Therapy Chains of Mephistopheles ensure that your opponent will have less game to play with.  If you can identify what the biggest threat is for you, this card is golden.  It also hits Welder when you want it to.

It's funny that you address the dark ritual situation, although later assume that the card itself is not needed for the deck, but as a whole is needed to keep tempo with your opponents game plan.

Nezumi Shortfang should be a consideration.  It's a little slow, but you should be trying to play the game at your pace.  It also provides an excellent clock if you manage to get them to 0 cards.  The ability's cost is its major drawback, though.  You may not have the mana to be activating this often enough to make it worth its card advantage.  It will give you a certain inevitability.

It's far too slow, and essentially is a mesmeric fiend with the drawback of allowing them to choose the card, and is a growing investment that really never pays off. I have never tested the card, but I would refuse to believe that in any relavent matchup it would be able to win you the game.

Edicts are certainly appropriate for this deck.  You won't stop every threat.  They aren't as good at killing Mongrel as Contagion, but they aren't a negative card advantage.  Without a draw engine (and you can't have one), card disadvantage is bad.  Jitte should be your answer to smaller creatures.

They are just fine at killing a mongrel, just make sure a mongrel is the only thing on the board after you ping with jitte and this is hardly an issue.

Skittering Skirge is excellent.  Jitte is excellent.  Mesmeric Fiend is excellent.  I don't think you should try to contest these cards.

Agreed, although contesting any of the major cards including chains or wretch should be uncontested as well.

Has anyone tried to incorporate blue into the deck?  Blue would basically be for the sideboard (Annul?  Energy Flux) and Time Walk.  Time Walk is excellent.

Blue or white seem to be the most devastating of the two colors to splash. Being able to use rule of law, swords, serenity, or disenchant is reason enough to take notice from white (as well as the walking energy flux from kamigawa). Blue offers flux, arcane lab, time walk, annul, ancestral (at the very worst it rapes their hand), and bounce affects. The next best color has been red, due to shaman, small creature removal, and pyrostatic pillar.

Aether Vial is good, not excellent.  This isn't a deck that draws a lot of bad threats (like non-green Fish), it just draws some good threats.  Aether Vial will get your threats through, but will not be spectacular usually.  It's also only good on turn 1.

Aether vial is excellent, once it is on two counters you can use it's ability as instant speed discard and graveyard removal, and run uncontested against counters. Saying it is only good on turn one is somewhat correct, although it can be very useful in the late game, as multiple vials can pull you out of a pinch with negator, as it is known the deck is creature heavy, and needs permants to sack in a pinch.

I don't think Dark Ritual is absolutely necessary for the deck.  The extra speed isn't that much.  But I haven't tested too much.

Ritual is needed, no questions asked, it allows plays that would otherwise take 2 turns to play, and so I see no reason to remove it from the deck without further reasoning.