[Report] Narrowly averting disaster at SCG Rochester

[Demonic Attorney]

Well, I'm back from SCG Rochester and I must say-- I'm quite relieved. Before the event, I heard talk of having the Supreme Galactic Dark Lords of Magic: The Gathering aka the pros unleashed on our format. One of them even said it was unhealthy for Vintage that he become involved with it. And he said it in an SCG article, so he must have been right! So, the day of the event I bade a mournful farewell to Type One and collected my things, knowing that I was probably on my way to the last Vintage tournament ever before Zvi Mowshowitz and his ilk were unleashed on us and ruined our hapless little format.

 I arrived and savored the pre-tournament experience for the last time before Vintage was broken wide open by the pros who had already descended like a howling pack of merciless Turks, waiting patiently at the gates of Type One, ready to lay siege to our tournament, our format, and our way of life. I shut my eyes and prayed that it would all be over quickly as I navigated through the swiss, going 3-2 or something and then dropping because I picked the wrong deck archetype to play. I didn't really think it mattered though; without bothering to check the standings, I was certain that the 10 or so Shooting Stars accounted for 1st-10th place, and even possibly 1st-30th place. I didn't even bother to question how approximately ten people could fill the top 30 slots. They were pros, after all-- they could do it.

But when the dust of the swiss rounds had settled and the top 8 were announced, I discovered that, much to my relief, some of us shitty Vintage players had actually made it in. Not only that, but Zvi Mowshowitz's deleterious effects on our humble format's health were limited to the symptoms of him going 3-2 drop, much like myself. I don't know what divine entity descended from the heavens to protect us in Rochester on that fateful June 11th, but I will be forever grateful that our format narrowly avoided almost certain doom at the hands of the shooting stars.  As for my own performance, I didn't think it to be anything noteworthy or spectacular, but when I reviewed the final standings and found my own placement at #89 to be humblingly close to Zvi's placing of #91, I decided that I'd recount the day's events for everyone interested.

The trip got underway for me around 5:00 in the afternoon, when I was picked up by Meddling Mage and The Atog Lord.  We knew we were in for a long drive, but the endless stream of remixes of Mega Man II songs on Rich's iPod made the trip seem to fly by.  Well.  At least the first 2 hours or so.  Then, we decided it was time for a pit stop and pulled into a rest area off the I-90 turnpike.  While Mike and I were enjoying the respective cusinines of D'Angelo's and Papa Gino's, Rich attempted to choke down the twisted creation of Fresh City admist the cacophony of at least 50 screaming children clad in orange shirts.  Mike hypothesized that they attended a camp for ugly children.  I debated the wisdom of saying very loudly "HEY GUYS,  I SURE AM GLAD MY PARENTS LOVE ME!  YOU KNOW HOW I KNOW THEY DO?  BECAUSE THEY NEVER SENT ME TO CAMP!  SENDING YOUR CHILD AWAY TO LIVE IN THE WOODS-- DOES THAT SEEM LIKE SOMETHING A PARENT WHO LOVED YOU WOULD DO?"  ...I thought it might help the noise level since crying and whimpering would be quieter than shrieking and yelling.  Finishing our meals before I came to a decision on that, we were on the road again and finished the remaining 4 or so hours of the trip.  Arriving at the Red Roof Inn around midnight, we met up with our teammate, Rico Suave and checked into our room.  Apparently Red Roof Inn has a cost-cutting policy against providing basic amenities to their guests, because we couldn't get a rollaway cot for us to use, and had to call the front desk for shampoo which came in the form of small packets.  Nothing says classy like packets of shampoo that look like wet-naps.

The day of the event, we strolled in around 9:55 for the prompt 10:00 start.  I kind of held that up a few minutes filling out my decklist.  I considered hurling myself at the feet of Zvi and pleading for the health of our defenseless format, but decided it would be a vain gesture; I feared Zvi might even decide to break it extra-wide open to spite me for my impudence in approaching him.  So, the first round pairings went up and I faced my first opponent, playing the same deck I was.

Round 1 vs. Worse Than Fish

Game 1   I keep a hand with 4 lands, a Force of Will, a Chalice, and a Standstill because I don't really know any better.  He gets vial down early and starts dropping guys, making my standstill look like a bad idea.  I drew into more lands as he drew into Ancestral and I concede the game when he had something like double the cards I did.

Sideboard:  -4 Chalice, +1 Kira, +3 Oxidize

Game 2   I mulligan my initial hand into something with 2 creatures a vial and some mana.  I keep and force his Ancestral around turn three.  Jitte on the other hand comes down onto a board containing his rootwalla to my Waterfront Bouncer.        I proceed to bounce his attacking Rootwalla for the next four or so turns, not drawing any answers which would include the 3 Jittes in my deck or the 3 Oxidizes.  Eventually the Jitte gets active and it's academic from there.

0-1


Dejected that the experience did not start out on a high note for me, I secretly thanked my lucky stars that now that I was in the loser's bracket, I would be able to avoid horrific destruction at the hands of the Pros.  The next round started shortly thereafter.

Round 2 vs. Standard Oath

I'm paired against a friendly guy who came down from Canada.  We talked a bit about how our previous matches had gone and then got started.

Game 1   I keep a hand with Factories, 2 Jitte, and a Ninja, which turned out to be a very wise decision on my part.  He dropped oath either first or second turn, but couldn't find Orchard for a long time.  My factory hit him for like 6 before he found orchard, my Jitte had several counters on it.  He ended up throwing down Engineered Explosives at 2 and then replacing his oath, getting rid of my Jitte and forcing me to gain 8 life or so.  I replaced my Jitte on my turn, and then orchard turned up for him.  I then came out blazing with Ninja, Mongrel, Boa.  Boa wound up hitting him for like 8 or 10 unblockable damage to finish things.

Sideboard -4 Standstill, -3 Basking Rootwalla +4 Ray of Revelation, +1 Waterfront Bouncer, +1 Tundra, +1 Plans

Game 2   I have a similar hand to my first one, except it includes Force of Will which I think took out an early Oath while my creatures accumulated very quickly.  He wound up getting a second Oath the turn before I attacked for lethal, I think.

1-1

I heard rumors that Zvi Mowshowitz was in the X-1 bracket along with me, sending a tremor of fear through my fragile frame right as the next pairings went up.

Round 3 vs Vengeur Mask

This was without a doubt the most intense match of the day for me. 

Game 1   I get absolutely destroyed.  I have a hand with multiple standstills which immediately become useless once he drops first turn illusionary mask off Workshop, then puts down a creature with 1 counter off a Mox.  Next turn, to my shock and dismay, a Phyrexian Dreadnought gets flipped up and another creature gets put down with one counter.  Yay.

Sideboard -4 Standstill, +1 Waterfront Bouncer, +3 Oxidize

Game 2   I mulligan to five, expecting a swift and sound defeat.  He drops an early Platinum Angel off a ton of mana around turn three, when I have a Mongrel down.  I Oxidize at the end of his turn and attack.  He drops chalice for 1 on his turn and Juggernaut.  I drop a second Mongrel on mine and attack.  My other Mongrel takes out his Juggernaut before he drops chalice at 2.  Wonderful.  I now have one creature on the board for the rest of the game.  I draw into several strips which set him back on mana.  Mongrel knocks him to around 10 and I force a Sundering Titan.  On my turn, I ninjitsu in a Ninja and keep the 2 damage clock going, drawing into another force.  At 2 life, he drops workshop, memory jar.  I force.  I win off my lone ninja of the deep hours, which is absolutely insane.

Game 3   I keep an opening hand with a Mox Emerald, a Wasteland, and 5 2-drops.  I get 1 in before he drops trinisphere.  I strip his workshop and he has a lot of trouble working back up to 3 mana as my lone creature again goes to town.  Finally he gets down Choke around 8 life and I knock out his 3rd land.  In the closing turns he gets a Juggernaut down but that only kept my attackers at bay for one turn.

2-1


Round 4 vs Salvager Oath

Game 1   My hand contains Chalice, 2 Wastelands and a Strip Mine along with a Vial.  I take out his first four lands, drawing another Wasteland along the way.  He's never really in this game.

Sideboard:  -4 Standstill, -3 Basking Rootwalla +4 Ray of Revelation, +1 Waterfront Bouncer, +1 Tundra, +1 Plans

Game 2   I have a lot of guys online very quickly and get in a lot of damage.  He tries for Oath which gets forced.  He throws balance which gets rid of Mongrel, Boa, and Boncer.  We discard down 2 cards each and I found out next turn that his 2 cards are Salvagers and Lion's Eye Diamond, much to my dismay.

Game 3  I open with Chalice at 0 and a vial.  I get down a Rootwalla and then a Mongrel.  He enlightened tutors for a seal of cleansing which I force, thinking he has a bunch of Moxes in hand.  The assault continues more or less unchallenged from there.  He shows me a hand of high-end creatures after we finish.


Round 5  vs GiftsBelcher

I'm paired against my teammate Rich.  We grumble about this and we reach for each other's decks to cut before starting before a judge darted in, blocked our hands and said "Hold it!  Deck check."  Beautiful.  This happens, and we're underway.

Round 1   I have Factory, Wasteland, Sapphire, Ancestral, Standstill and other stuff.  I Ancestral right iff the bat looking for Vial.  It gets forced.  I throw down Standstill to buy some time, but that proves to a fatal mistake.  After doing this, Rich misses a land drop so I'd have had time anyway.  I'm still in the game with Ninja in hand that I can slip in with my attacking Factory but never find the mana.  He goes off at 2 life.

Round 2   I just get overpowered; my cards do almost nothing in the face of land, mox, mox, Lotus, Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will.


I might have played another match, but even if I did, my heart wasn't in it at this point.  I finish with 3 wins.

My teammate Rico Suave picked the silver bullet against Fish and made it to the top 8, representing Reflection all the way to the top 4, losing to the eventual winner.  During that time the rest of us amused ourselves by playing keep-away with Brassman's hat.  It was like childhood all over again; we always picked on the kid who rode the short bus.

I had to get back that night for work on Sunday, and Mike and Rich were planning on going to Syracuse.  So, I caught a ride on the shortbus from Kowal and Brassman.  Along the way home, we discussed at length the redeeming achievemnts of one Dave Feinstein.  A sample of the conversation went like this:

"Did you know that Dave Feinstein was seventeen feet tall?"

"Did you know that Dave Feinstein was all 44 Presidents of the United States?"

"Did you know that Dave Feinstein made the original Articles of Confederation out of a block of wood, a feather, and a pinecone?"

"...Did you know that Dave Feinstein is the United States?"

"...to Dave Feinstein!"

"to Dave Feinstein!"

"to Dave Feinstein."

The quality of the conversation proceeded from there.  I made it home at 9:00am and wandered off to bed, thankful that Type One survived its encounter with Zvi Mowshowitz and Associates.  Until next time.

[nataz]

I considered hurling myself at the feet of Zvi and pleading for the health of our defenseless format, but decided it would be a vain gesture; I feared Zvi might even decide to break it extra-wide open to spite me for my impudence in approaching him.

this may be the JW Black Label talking, but I love you. Or maybe I love Zvi bashing. Heh, Zvi is the new Ben B.

[Komatteru]

+15 RP for the sarcasm

I enjoyed reading that a lot!  Good stuff!

[everythingitouchdies]

I considered hurling myself at the feet of Zvi and pleading for the health of our defenseless format, but decided it would be a vain gesture; I feared Zvi might even decide to break it extra-wide open to spite me for my impudence in approaching him.

this may be the JW Black Label talking, but I love you. Or maybe I love Zvi bashing. Heh, Zvi is the new Ben B.

Well the Jim Beam black label totally seconds that. Or maybe its just that I like when ANYONE gets bashed.

EITD

[Lou]

No doubt very funny stuff.  I second the concession that we are very lucky the format was not destroyed!

[Shock Wave]

That was pretty entertaining. Good job! I'm a firm believer that no matter how good you are at anything, once you become cocky you're setting yourself up for certain disaster. There's a difference between being confident and being an ass, and considering Zvi's article illustrates him as the latter, I'm certainly not surprised that he faired poorly. That being said, I know several pros from the event that are very classy individuals, specifically Steve Wolfman, Josh Rider, and Rich Hoaen. I don't think it is fair to generalize Zvi's comments as a reflection of how the pros feel with respect to Vintage as a whole. Every format has their characters, so let's not suggest that the Pros are any more elitest than Vintage players, because I'm sure many will agree that Vintage has it's fair share.

[Saucemaster]

Funny report.  To be fair to the pros, it really does look like most of them sort of half-assed the whole thing.  Which is too bad, because I was really looking forward to hearing what they'd have to say about Vintage after they seriously studied the format.  Zvi's article should be entertaining, at least.  Hopefully this will do somethign to alleviate the view that Vintage is nothing more than a bunch of pseudo-casual players with oversized egos.

Along the way home, we discussed at length the redeeming achievemnts of one Dave Feinstein.

"Dave Feinstein" is a very strange way to spell "Bill Brasky".

[nataz]

Hopefully this will do somethign to alleviate the view that Vintage is nothing more than a bunch of pseudo-casual players with oversized egos.

doubtful,
Most of the pro's in the final article mentioned that there were tons and tons of play mistakes made against them all day long.

[Smmenen]

I don't think that making mistakes makes Type One a casual format.  Mistakes are made at every level of magic from the Pro Tour to the PTQ.  It is the quantity of mistakes that is the critical difference and the lackluster performance of the pros demonstrates, in my view, that Vintage is healthy indeed and should gain some more respect from this tournament.

I want to give a very hearty congratulations to the Canadians and Rich and Peter in particular.  Well played old chaps.

Stephen Menendian

[Demonic Attorney]

I don't think that making mistakes makes Type One a casual format.  Mistakes are made at every level of magic from the Pro Tour to the PTQ.

This is exactly the point.  Everyone goes on and on about how there so many terrible Vintage players who make all these awful play mistakes.  I play draft/limited on a semi-regular basis and from my experience with that "more professional" format, I can say with confidence that it isn't the majority of Type One players who are bad, it's the majority of MAGIC PLAYERS that are bad.  At the Grand Prix in Boston earlier this spring, I saw someone randomly blow up their own board with a Pernicious Deed.  They had a Phyrexian Negator in play, their opponent was at 5.  Their opponent had no board position at all.  Rarely if ever have I seen anyone in Type One mess up so badly, and that's just one of countless examples of terrible plays I see in other formats all the time.  Why is it then, that Type One players are singled out?

When someone in another format makes a godawful play, they aren't held up as the representative for the skill level among Limited players, Block players, Type Two players, or Extended players.  What makes Vintage different?  Everyone format has both awful players, very talented players, and a whole spectrum of people in between.  To say that Type One is represented by its bad players while the other formats are represented by their good players is tremendously unfair to Type One as a format.  Of course, one could say that the Pro circuit's good players are better than Type One's good players, but I see two problems with that argument.  First, no one makes it; the criticisms of Vintage are always about everyone in it sucking and its players making awful play errors, glossing over the good players our format does have.  And second, for all the Pros that went to Rochester, they didn't beat the good players Vintage had to offer.

[Shock Wave]

I don't think that making mistakes makes Type One a casual format.  Mistakes are made at every level of magic from the Pro Tour to the PTQ.

This is exactly the point.  Everyone goes on and on about how there so many terrible Vintage players who make all these awful play mistakes.  I play draft/limited on a semi-regular basis and from my experience with that "more professional" format, I can say with confidence that it isn't the majority of Type One players who are bad, it's the majority of MAGIC PLAYERS that are bad.  At the Grand Prix in Boston earlier this spring, I saw someone randomly blow up their own board with a Pernicious Deed.  They had a Phyrexian Negator in play, their opponent was at 5.  Their opponent had no board position at all.  Rarely if ever have I seen anyone in Type One mess up so badly, and that's just one of countless examples of terrible plays I see in other formats all the time.  Why is it then, that Type One players are singled out?

When someone in another format makes a godawful play, they aren't held up as the representative for the skill level among Limited players, Block players, Type Two players, or Extended players.  What makes Vintage different?  Everyone format has both awful players, very talented players, and a whole spectrum of people in between.  To say that Type One is represented by its bad players while the other formats are represented by their good players is tremendously unfair to Type One as a format.  Of course, one could say that the Pro circuit's good players are better than Type One's good players, but I see two problems with that argument.  First, no one makes it; the criticisms of Vintage are always about everyone in it sucking and its players making awful play errors, glossing over the good players our format does have.  And second, for all the Pros that went to Rochester, they didn't beat the good players Vintage had to offer.

... quoted for truth. Well said.

[CrazyCarl]

The pros may not have done as well as some might have expected, but that doesn't say too much about them.  It positively hurt to watch some of the matches on Saturday.  I saw some of the most atrocious play I've ever been witness to and that player would STILL win.  It was ridiculous.  That's the point people are generally trying to make. 

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but the severity of these mistakes in any other format, barring an act of Jet Li, would mean games and matches lost.  Yes, many minor mistakes can do this, but I've seen some games where I've thought jokingly, "What is the worst play this player could make?"  only to see it come to pass.  This weekend was somewhat disheartening for me.

You don't see the guy blowing up his Deed make Top 8, do you?  I'll just leave it at that.

[Machinus]

It was an elaborate and powerful experiment, and I'd like to thank Pete for setting it up. For the most part I don't care what other players think about Vintage, but I do care about having regular tournaments and being "supported" by wizards and the dci. It's much easier for people to write off vintage as a stupid format when it's unlikely for them and the people they play with to buy into the format, and impossible for them to understand the complexity of building decks with 10-50% restricted cards. I'm glad if this tournament earns the format some respect; but ultimately it doesn't really matter what other players think of the format. As smmenen mentioned in a post/article a short while ago, its people with a passion for vintage that determine if it gets played or not. There will always be bad and unexperienced players, and there isn't anything we can do to stop people from interpreting the facts however they want and thinking things that make them feel the best about themselves. Type 1 is the greatest format there is, and we all know it, that's why we pay $400 for a mana source and drive 12 hours or whatever to play in a non-sanctioned tournament. If we care about what the "pros" or anyone else thinks about our format, then maybe we are doing something wrong.

[The Atog Lord]

You don't see the guy blowing up his Deed make Top 8, do you?  I'll just leave it at that.

Actually, yes, you do.

The finals of GP Boston a little while ago were determined by a terrible play mistake by LCG. He had the ability to Cabal Therapy himself and force himself to discard his Ghoul, after which he could return it to play with a reanimation spell for an immediate win. Instead, he cast his reanimation spell (I think it was Exhume) before making himself discard the Ghoul. This cost him the match. And this was the finals of a Grand Prix, being played by a well-regarded pro. Not to diss LCG at all, but yes, you really do see this sort of thing in the top eight of a GP.

Even in my games against the pros, there was one clear mistake. One of them played Meddling Mage naming Tinker, even though my Tinker had already been pitched to Force of Will. No, I was not playing with Burning Wish, and even if I were, it would have been strickly superior to have named Burning Wish anyways.

Chad Ellis had some very insightful comments on the whole "pros in Vintage" issue, but I'll leave it to his article to explain his thoughts in detail. Overall, my interactions with the Pros were very positive. Chad is, as he has always been, the nicest man in Magic. Wolfman was very sportsmanlike as well. And Richard was nice, even if he opted to take home his extra shirt and burn it rather than give it to me when I beat him at Syracuse 

Overall, that was a good weekend.

[Lou]

Type 1 is the greatest format there is, and we all know it, that's why we pay $400 for a mana source and drive 12 hours or whatever to play in a non-sanctioned tournament. If we care about what the "pros" or anyone else thinks about our format, then maybe we are doing something wrong.

There is a lot of truth to this.  I have recently started playing FNM again to test for regionals.  I also recently purchased my Black Lotus.  When showing it off to all the Standard players, they were like, "Dude, you paid $525 for that?  You can't even play with it."  For the most part they are just worried about their ratings and all that jazz, but to me Type 1 is just some of the funnest shit to do and I enjoy it to no end.  Some of them are even starting to come around, because Type 1, again, really is the best format, at least for me.

[Whatever Works]

I think a few things about the pro's at Rochester should be noted. There were several things that you have to witness at the tournement to understand, and alot of misconceptions.

1.) The pro's who went overall were very cool. I dont believe that any of them were extremely cocky (however they had a slight underly confidence that could be considered mild arrogance). However, all the pro's I talked to (most of them) were kind, and considerate.

2.) Most of the Pro's really didnt take the event that serious. Most of them (probably all of them from what I saw) Netdecked or in the case of 1 or 2 took an extended deck and proxied power. The Pro's who took the event seriously (3 maybe 4 of them) all did fairly well with the odvious acception of Zvi M. I talked to one of the "shooting stars" with Rich Shay, and he said something that I found as a big complement to the format saying that It would take him (the star I think his name was Chad?) at least 6 months to a year to be truly competitive in the T1.

3.) Zvi is not even close to ben B. this comparison should never ever be made. He said some stupid things, and he probably feels like an idiot now and has learned his lesson (however I never new him playing stax would destroy the format). Zvi overall was extremely cool, nice, and just like a T2 version of Smennen accept with a much more ennoying laugh (and probably the fastest turns I have ever seen).

4.) The one thing I noticed that ennoyed the Pro's I talked to was losing to random brokeness. Like 1 was very upset and felt completely screwed over by a first turn collosus off tinker with FoW backup. Then again thats what makes this format different, and while most people accept the stupid to just happen if your not used to it then its like taking a giant punch to the gut.

Overall, I was impressed not by there playskill (though they were amazing at shuffling fast) but by there generally good demeanor. It was much much better then mine when I found out I didnt top 8 with a 5-1-1 record at Syracuse on Sunday with my only loss being to the #2 seed in round 4, and only draw to the 10th place finisher in found 6, and somehow dropping from the top seeded person with 13 points entering the final round in 11th, and then winning 2-0 and somehow not making it (even though only 2 tables of people above me drew. Missing out on a piece of power by less then 0.3% is like getting kicked in the groin. I still had a great time but am to bitter to right a report.

Kyle L

[nataz]

3.) Zvi is not even close to ben B. this comparison should never ever be made.

heh, Its not about what he said, but how we reacted.
derp

To be fair, if Pro's took the format seriously, I think I'd agree with (or at least be much less skeptical them most) many of his predictions.

Although I have no clue on the details of chambers matches, I think in a way he proved Zvi correct.
From the chambers interview premi article

"What playtesting did you do?
I've never played a match of Type One. This tournament was the first time ever. In the first round, my opponent played Goblin Welder, but I killed him before he got to use it, so after the match I needed to ask him what he was planning on returning with it."

from the much bashed Zvi article:

Having one of us come in every now and then and play a deck someone handed off is good harmless fun, but if we start taking things too seriously, we're all in trouble.

Chambers and all the others plaything this weekend was nothing more then "good harmless fun". None of the non-vintage "pro's" playtested any decent amount. I think the most games anyone got in was a weak 6, with a couple never playing in their life, and one who built their deck that morning.

What we didn't get is a group of dedicated individuals trying to break the format.
Example, I offer a team like meandeck/paragons. Look at the influence this relatively small group of people have on the format. Want a more radical example, take Rich Shay. Small groups of pro caliber dedicated individuals WILL shape, move, and effect the format. If enough of those types of players were eventually to get involved, who knows what would happen.

This weekend however, proves nothing  

P.S
hehe
I like to call what happend to Zvi, and some of the backlash to his article, the "Smmenen Effect".

P.P.S.
Just cause I don't reeeaaaly H8 Zvi, doesn't mean I didn't laugh so hard that fine whiskey shot outta my nose from reading D.A.'s report.

[kirdape3]

Zvi barned an older Kevin $T4KS list from the master himself.  Very few if any of the pros actually did more than read the articles on SCG and look at the lists from what I remember.  When he was at my sauna (read: house with no air conditioning) for a couple of hours, all he did was talk about the Magic Hall of Fame and how Mike Long shouldn't be on it (continuation of a conversation with Knut, but for well over an hour).  Chambers received Worse Than Fish from Knut.  And so on - although Hoaen's deck was pretty neat if a little old school in some of the choices.

[Vood]

The pro's could not break vintages for sure. I had no doubt about it. Each format need time and dedication in order to perform at it. If a pro decided to dedicate himself to type 1, he would only be on par with the best player of that format. On our side, we have put a lot of time on 2 decks we perfected, Control Slaver and Bomberman. And we reaped the benefits of that time put into them. Our build of control slaver placed 1st and 16th at SCG Rochester. Bomberman made it to top 8 twice at Syracuse, with 1 player missing it in the last round.

Quoting Ben Kowal on Bomberman (His list was a little bit outdated)

This looks like a particularly weaker version of the powerful Salvager Oath, but I would still be ready to see a version like this. I'd be very surprised to see it after round 4 though, seeing as the Oath build is just better in every conceivable way.

Obviously he didn't understand what Bomberman is all about. It is a beatdown deck with a combo attached to it. What is oath going to do against aether spellbombs, meddling mage and swords to plowshares all maindeck?

We brought back 4 piece of powers (Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, Mox ruby and Timetwister), not bad!

[Smmenen]

Nataz: How the hell is anything that happened to Zvi anything even remotely related to me?  Please, give me a break.

[nataz]

mmm..testy testy

Ironically, I was actually referring to the fact that often times people aren't willing to give you a break. You and Zvi are both well known magic writers, talented players, with sometimes extream(or non-mainstream) ideas, that caught a lot of flak for what you said about the state(or non-state) of the format. This is even though what you both were saying wasn't that unbelievable or amazing. It was just an observation in passing, no need to get huffy.   

Normally I'd shoot this over to you via PM, but It doesn't seem to be an option.

I'd hate for you to lose sleep over this.
-huggs and kisses
carter

[Smmenen]

I just don't think Zvi and I are analogous at all.  I have a proven track record in the format, which Zvi does not.  I can back up my claims with actual experience and data instead of bald assertions.  I back up my theories and claims with performance and when I don't perform I learn from my mistakes and correct them.  The only times I did not make top 9 in a SCG P9 event were when Brassman luck sacked me in Syracuse (he drew the only card in his deck he could have drawn to win the game), I played meandeck tendrils in Jan Richmond (obv. a mistake), and Tog in the first one (and lost to Fishies).  Although people may dispute my claims, I like to think they can rarely disprove them. 

OTOH, Kevin said that Zvi talked just like me.  So maybe he is like me. 

[Akki]

Chambers and all the others plaything this weekend was nothing more then "good harmless fun". None of the non-vintage "pro's" playtested any decent amount. I think the most games anyone got in was a weak 6, with a couple never playing in their life, and one who built their deck that morning.

Heck, Joe Weber, the other sometime "pro" that made Top 8 played on a complete lark since he lives in Rochester. He was handed a deck he had never played, and he knew nothing about the format.

[Matt]

OTOH, Kevin said that Zvi talked just like me.  So maybe he is like me. 

Except that, as word has it, you take forever to play a turn while Zvi is one of the fastest players.

[Smmenen]

OTOH, Kevin said that Zvi talked just like me.  So maybe he is like me. 

Except that, as word has it, you take forever to play a turn while Zvi is one of the fastest players.

Except that you have never played me nor have I even seen you in real life.  And watching some video with one game does not indicate how fast I play.  I love it when people speak authoritatively on subjects about which they know absolutely nothing.  Oh wait!  People do that here all the time.

[Meddling Mike]

OTOH, Kevin said that Zvi talked just like me.  So maybe he is like me. 

Except that, as word has it, you take forever to play a turn while Zvi is one of the fastest players.

Except that you have never played me nor have I even seen you in real life.  And watching some video with one game does not indicate how fast I play.  I love it when people speak authoritatively on subjects about which they know absolutely nothing.  Oh wait!  People do that here all the time.

Having played you both IRL and on MWS and having watched you play numerous matches IRL I feel I'm qualified to speak authoritatively on this subject, and you do play relatively slowly Steve. Our Tog v. Control Slaver testing on MWS took over 1 hour and 10 minutes to play 3 games.

[aTn]

Kowal wrote:

This looks like a particularly weaker version of the powerful Salvager Oath, but I would still be ready to see a version like this. I'd be very surprised to see it after round 4 though, seeing as the Oath build is just better in every conceivable way.

Obviously he didn't understand what Bomberman is all about. It is a beatdown deck with a combo attached to it. What is oath going to do against aether spellbombs, meddling mage and swords to plowshares all maindeck?

As J. Orlove pointed out on the SCG forum, Kowal was trying to predict that Bomberman was not going to do as well as Salvage/Oath in the Rocherster/Syracuse environment. But as you said, he was wrong! I think that many people don't understand how to play the deck and make quick judgements just by looking at the decklist. 

[Matt]

OTOH, Kevin said that Zvi talked just like me.  So maybe he is like me. 

Except that, as word has it, you take forever to play a turn while Zvi is one of the fastest players.

Except that you have never played me nor have I even seen you in real life.  And watching some video with one game does not indicate how fast I play.  I love it when people speak authoritatively on subjects about which they know absolutely nothing.  Oh wait!  People do that here all the time.

Except that I clearly said "as word has it," which pretty much indicates that I am not, nor have I ever been, an authority on your play. I love it when paranoid people just totally ignore what I write and read only the imagined slights against them that they want to see. Oh wait! You do that all the time.

I also love it when people try to shift the topic of discussion to sources' credibility and completely ignore whether the assertions are, in fact, true.

[Smmenen]

I don't speak about Legacy decks in the legacy forums.  Saying that someone takes forever to take a turn, whether it is a rumor or your opinion, should not be said unless you can prove it.  You were way out of line with that comment.   

The claim that I am a slow player is absurd.  Have I had some inexcusebly long turns?  Yes.  Any rumor that I am a slow player is directly connected to the fact that much of the time I play decks that are many orders of magnitude more difficult than what my opponent is playing.  I've played Doomsday, Long, Meandeath and Meandeck Tendrils in tournaments and placed well with many of them.  Watch me play mono blue, Tog, Stax, or Oath at a tournament and I think you'll notice that I'm a rapid fire player.  I play vintage very quickly most of the time.  It's easy to remember an absurd turn with Meandeck Tendrils because that deck was absurd.  Hence why I won't play it a tournament anymore. 

@ Meddling mage:  In our match at waterbury I played Meandeck Tendrils faster than you were playing Control Slaver and we finished our match with time to spare.  3 games of Tog v. Control Slaver in an hour and ten minutes on MWS testing is testing and not tournament magic, and not even that slow. 

[everythingitouchdies]

You know, I am not an authority on anything, well anything magic related (I am definitely an authority of drinking whiskey out of a mason jar while stealing tombstones from a well lit cemetary) but I have played, and have had the chance to play Steve at different points in time.

The first time I met steve I played him round one of chicago last november... he played doomsday and I played dragon. Three games, 13 turns total, and we took maybe fifteen minutes including a hell of a lot of shuffling. There was one play where he really thought out a duress, taking more time than most of you would have, but I did the same thing the previous game. Thats not slow play, thats calculating a decision.

I have also had the chance to watch Steve play some, like in Columbus in March and the only really agonizingly long round was when he played Onelovemachine (who was playing while his GF was hanging out with 4 out of 8 of the top 8 players from this past weekend's scg, oddly enough) and that had alot more to do with Josh not knowing how to resolve brainstorm in less than five minutes than anything else.

The thing I think alot of people get caught up on is that Steve is fairly animated, which makes things seem far more exaggerated than they are. I for one can be a slow player when I feel like it, or when I feel that it is to my advantage, and I would not be surprised to hear that most of you are the same way.

That said, wasnt this thread about something else entirely?

EITD