Never Void

[dandan]

Never Void (needs new name but serves as a reminder of what this card is all about)
World Enchantment
2B
Whenever a player plays a spell, counter it unless its controller pays X where X is the number of tedium counters on Never Void.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a tedium counter on Never Void.
Always use Spellcheck.

Can the world cope with a slow growing Void? Obviously these will cause a lock if left for long enough so it dies have a little merit although it takes a long long time before it outstrips Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere. Note that you can still cast spells (storm, threshold, graveyard effects) and other World Enchantments can kill it.

Regarding power level, Lilting Refrain didn't exactly see much use.

Latest version

Devoid of Pleasure
World Enchantment
1BB
Whenever a player plays a spell other than a World Enchantment, counter it unless its controller pays X mana where X is the number of tedium counters on Never Void.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a tedium counter on Never Void.
Submission is not when you lose the ability to resist, but rather when you lose the desire

[Malhavoc]

I would make the adding of a new counter not optional, and make the card destroy itself when it has reached a certain amount of counters. All this to avoid the card to lock the game for both players.

[Limbo]

Why not just add:
{amount of mana}: Remove a tedium counter from ~this~. Any player may play this ability.

I'd say that amount of mana could just as well be put at 4 or 5.

[Matt]

I think this could work if it becomes harder to play so fast. 2B is easily doable on turn two, which is way too fast.

[Slay]

Agreed. 1BB sounds good but not broken, while still being playable. It also means that Drain decks would have a hard time playing it.

And how about:

Discard 3 cards: Destroy ~this~. Any player may use this ability.
-Slay

[dandan]

I think this could work if it becomes harder to play so fast. 2B is easily doable on turn two, which is way too fast.

I think this would suck at 4 mana, remember it takes a full turn before it does anything at all and 2 turns before it does anything more than the 2cc Sphere of Resistance.
I see the point about the possibility of turn 2, would making the CC 1BB help?

The whole point of the card is the lock. Get out of jail clauses are for wimps. This is Black after all.
If there has to be such a clause, it should be for the opponent only, the caster shouldn't have a way back once they commit to the Void. I guess I could live with Sacrifice all permanents: Destroy Never Void (this ability may only be played by an opponent), which sounds harsh but kind of weakens the turn 2 play.

I agree the addition of a counter could be mandatory. I left it optional as its controller could theoretically let it get to 3 or so and then cast stuff to finish the game. Whilst I like the idea of an out of control Void, it could easily result in stalemate.

[Jacob Orlove]

Making it optional isn't as interesting, though. If they have to add the counter, that makes the card much more interesting.

I agree that this should cost at least 1BB, although I'd prefer BBB.

[wonkey_donkey]

If you want a get-out clause, how about "whenever ~this~ counters 3 or more spells in a turn, sacrifice ~this~"? It's maybe set at the wrong level, but it seems like a much more fun attempt than discarding the cards...

Tom

[Matt]

I don't think players should be able to blow up the whole plane. If you want it to have a drawback, make it cost you some life.

I support this at BBB. 1BB is pushing it.

[dandan]

The method of destroying it I suggested wouldn't blow up the whole plane, merely all of your permanents and even then only an opponent has this option. Planeswalkers can certainly sacrifice all of their permanents if they so desire, indeed some actually enjoy it!
IMHO it doesn't need such a get-out clause and it would overcomplicate the card.

I don't think this meets the strict standards that a Black Enchantment for BBB should have. It isn't good vs aggro, it isn't good versus combo and good luck getting it out versus control (and they should be able to out-land you anyway) {note I do know how much counterspells cost these days in Type II but we can't make everything cost 4 or more to help bad counters}. It doesn't fit easily into anything out there. This card needs a deck build around it and it is a very slow lock that doesn't affect permanents in play. If I can control what you put out until turn 3, then stop you doing anything worthwhile for 3 turns or so whilst this builds up counters and then have some way of actually winning, couldn't I pretty much win without this card anyway?

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, why isn't this card white?

[dandan]

Short answer - Because it is Black

Longer answer - Because Nether Void was black.

Long answer - Because this Enchantment represents the relentless power of tedium, of nothingness, of the void, of the unimaginable horror of helplessness (think never ending story for the nothinness/void bit). That is so non-White it could one of my T-shirts that my wife washed! Along with Blue (a colour that has way too much already), Black is the only colour that has done additional mana payments or counter your spell. In addition, whilst White effects are often universal they are usually predictable (because that is the nature of order) but Black effects revel in the negative effects they infict upon the caster as well as the opponents, with the caster convinced he can handle the dark forces he has unleased and not always being correct in the assumption. Black is the colour of killing yourself slowly.

[Limbo]

Although I like the card as is, how is this for an idea? :

Whenever a player plays a spell, put a tedium counter on ~this~.
Whenever a player plays a spell, counter it unless its controller pays X where X is the number of tedium counters on ~this~.

[Jacob Orlove]

Nether Void ws from Legends, which had all-stars like the green counterspell. Back then, Wizards straight up did not know what they were doing. In more recent sets, mana payments have been the near-exclusive domain of white (barring Mana Leak effects).

In fact, the only extended-legal black cards that force a mana payment on the opponent are all from Prophecy, where the "rhystic" mechanic made it onto practically half the set.

In sum, this is in no way a black card.

[dandan]

I don't recall any White counterspell effects that use additional mana payments. Could you enlighten me? I agree that countering type effects have been bled into White from Blue but there are examples of Black countering effects too.
In addition to the mechanical side of this card, the flavour is very Black.

[Jacob Orlove]

This isn't a counterspell effect. It's a Glowrider/Aura of Silence type effect, only for all spells. It's a growing Sphere of Resistance.

The flavor (taxation) is very white.

[Matt]

The method of destroying it I suggested wouldn't blow up the whole plane, merely all of your permanents and even then only an opponent has this option. Planeswalkers can certainly sacrifice all of their permanents if they so desire, indeed some actually enjoy it!
IMHO it doesn't need such a get-out clause and it would overcomplicate the card.

The whole plane is the Enchant World itself. You may recall that the idea behind them is that when you play one you are teleporting the entire battle to a new plane, which is wy you can't have two in play at a time. When a player plays this ability:

Sacrifice all permanents: Destroy Never Void. Any player may play this ability.

destroying the plane is the effect, not the cost.

I also really think this does need some kind of "escape clause" but that you aren't getting what I mean by that. I do NOT mean that it has to have a built in self-destruct button. IT just has to have some way of ensuring that the game won't just end when this gets high enough. As initially worded I could see it causing a LOT of stupid wins just because you get into a creature standoff, and neither player can pay for anything in their library, so you just see who has the bigger library and that's it. A life payment in the upkeep, even a small one, means that long before one player gets decked the controller will (probably).

Hey you know what would be a great solution to this? Word it like this:

Whenever a player plays a spell other than a World Enchantment, counter it unless its controller pays X where X is the number of tedium counters on Never Void.

That would provide a great way of breaking the lock, and encourage players to play with more world enchantments (this would already probably be in a set themed around WEs).

[dandan]

An excellent suggestion as it is elegant, logical (you can't escape tedium on this plane, however there are other planes) and adds strategic value rather than reduces it. In addition to encouaging other World Enchantments, it also gives the caster something to do with spare Never Voids and as an added bonus makes the compulsory addition of counters more logical because of the interaction with other Never Voids. The only downside to this sugestion is that I didn't think of it

Whilst I agree that taxation is one of White's abilities, Black has also got a long track record of demanding mana payments and life would be very dull if we only allow cards that fit into the core areas of each colour. Blindly using life payment to make a card Black makes for dull cards. This card doesn't hurt you. Not physically. IMHO the feel of this card is Black, it isn't about rules, about taxation, about blind orders, this card is about a slow sapping of the will to continue, to act, to be. Think of Black as being the perversion of everything that White is. Rules are rules but if you have read Kafka you'll understand that rules can be abused and feelings of frustration and despair and utter hopelessness ensue (and that is just for the reader!).

[asmoranomardicodais]

But, would you feel this card was out of place in white if we were to introduce it?

Divine Approval
3W
Non-creature spells may not be cast unless there caster pays an additional 2.

This has an effect very similar to that of ghostly prison. Who's to say that this card wouldn't be in the flavor of white?

And what about Squeeze? That's a blue card with a nether void effect.

[dandan]

To be honest that card loks Green to me but I could live with in White.

Listen guys, whilst I appreciate the feedback, the concept is black. Either Black should be allowed this ability (which it has had several times before, albeit in the past) or it shouldn't. It appears that the power level is no longer an issue and it boils down to the colour pie. IMHO this card is about slowly changing from life, activity, change to death by inactivty and stagnation. Nobody would argue with it if it were life instead of mana (OK maybe not nobody but fewer) but Black always demanding life gets dull after a while. This effect is not meant to kill you. Sometimes good doing nothing is sufficient for evil to win. Sometimes the use of evil will cause the wielder to lose control and be trapped by his own deeds. I want a Black Enchantment that doesn't affect permanents in play nor life levels. I want it to take hope away from the future, to summon the inevitability of the void.

Nobody has said that this concept is anything but Black. In my opinion, although not a core ability, Black should be able to affect spells, not countering them like Blue or denying targets like White but by making life more difficult and denying you hope of salvation.

Given another flavour this card could be Blue or could be White. I can't and won't deny that. However, starting with the idea and developing a card from it, I feel the current version accurately reflects the idea and does it in a way that is not forbidden to Black.

[Matt]

Tedium seems very white to me. The "evil" side of white - oppressive government bureaucracy is TOTALLY white.

[asmoranomardicodais]

I again agree with matt there. Black isn't evil; all the colors have traditionally good and evil sides. For instance:

White
Good: Stands up for the meek, justice prevails, laws make sure everyone can live in happiness
Bad: Spanish Inquisition, People are forgotten for the group, Tedium

Blue
Good: Thirst for knowledge, seeks understanding rather than conquest, slow and articulate
Bad: Manipulative, Blurs facts to its own ends

Green
Good: Letting everything have a chance to live, respecting the elders
Bad: Isolated, hatred for difference, savageness

Red
Good: Bravery, Quick thinking,
Bad: Impatience, Cowardice

Black
Good: Values individual worth, Values indendence
Bad: Ends justify means, Indivual more important than group

Really, each color can have evil in it, as well as good. Without looking at Black as "The Evil Color", the void effect is a clearly white ability, since it is a universal law. Black doesn't want to hurt both people equally, it wants to makes sure that even if both suffer, the enemy is going to suffer more than it. Also, with black's emphasis on indivualality, black wants to allow for its ability to do stuff, so that it is earning its victory. I admit, a void is black, and the idea of nothing is probably a thought that makes it sound black, but the mechanics are not black at all. With this understanding of the colorpie, the blakc version of this would be more of:

Painful Void
Cumulative Upkeep: 2 Life
Opponents cannot play spells unless they pay 2 and two life in addition to that spell.     

[dandan]

Thief of Hope is Black. I want a black card that slowly erodes all hope. In addition I view the perversion of White as being Black just as the salvation of Black is White. Black and White are two sides of the same coin, closer to each other than either would care to admit. The relationship is different to that of Blue and Green or Red and White. It is clear to me that the world described by Kafka is White to Matt but to me it perfectly shows the seamless transition from White to Black - shades of grey abound not shades of White.

If I compare it to another opposite Green and Black. Both can have to ability to fish stuff out of the graveyard but for very different reasons. This card is not about making rules, bringing order to the world (or bringing a world full of order), it is about denying you the ability to live without denying you life - a form of un-living.

I think the possibility of having a bad effect on the caster is very important for this card and indeed for Black. Your own acts can come back to haunt you.

Finally, I am not asking 'What colour should this card be?' I am asking 'Can this card be Black?'

[dandan]

Can this card be Black?

(sorry for the *bump* but I would like to finish off this card)

[Odern420]

ever thought of having it "self implode" ? Maybe once it reaches 7 counters, it resets ? or possible "8: remove all counters, any player may use this ability" ?

[Matt]

I will answer your question with another question: could this card be both white AND black?

[Odern420]

Ahh man i just hada fun idea with this card.......

"During your upkeep, put a counter on <this> . When there are 4 counters on <this> remove 1 counter during your upkeep every upkeep until it reaches 1 counter. Everytime it reaches 1 counter repat the building proccess."


so it goes back and forth "1,2,3,4,3,2,1" and so on, makes you hold back cards and will make the game VERY interesting. I know the wording on this is HORRIBLE but i have no idea how to word it right, i can only present the idea lol. Seems like a fun concept and very annoying lol.

[dandan]

To be honest I would prefer this to become a hard lock rather than wilting away. It would be a very very bad card if it takes an eternity to get a lock then lets go!! I think it would actually end a lot of games sooner if this continued to grow (concessions) rather than allowed some hope of release.

Matt: Number of Black and White cards I like (excludes BW and other colour) : 1
I see your point and to a large extent agree although making it Gold makes it much harder to play and makes it Gold rather than Black. Is there any way to do a Black card with W kicker without making this a mess?

[dandan]

Just though of a way of making this more Black as well as giving a way out of the lock whilst still making the lock total after a while... See the revised wording

[dandan]

Nobody has commented since I changed the card to allow life loss as a way out. Are you guys really that easy to please?(Black card has life loss - must be OK)