Out of the Ashes: Hulk Smash 05

[Ultima]

Its a funny thing to me really how tog is today.  It posts good results around the world, especially in Italy but for some reason can't do well for the life of it in the US.  Actually, I should say that it only doesn't do well on the eastern coast, as I understand that some do pretty well with it on the West Coast.  Incidentally, why is that?  Personally, I think Tog is good, but I don't think people really give it chance around here except Joe Bushman. (God bless him,  ) Also, I think that people really don't think outside the box about Tog and how applicable it really can be to the metagame.  More to the point though I think Tog is an excellant choice for the current metagame here, because it can house all the necassary components for defeating the popular decks and still pack the same punch it used to have.  Tog, in a sense, has a perfect chance to perform well now and here because as another T1 player said once, "it has strategic superiority."

Now, let's get down to what I rapping about:

Hulk Smash 05

Kill///

2 Psychatog
2 Gorilla Shaman

Disruption///

1 Mind Twist
2 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Draw and Search///

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish

Broken///

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Manabase///

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Stripmine

SB

1 Berserk
1 Gush
1 Lava Dart/Artifact Mutation
1 Firestorm
1 Rushing River
1 Naturalize
1 Fire/Ice
2 Coffin Purge
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast

As you can see the primary strategy of this deck is mana denial.  The deck was done this way because mana denial seems to be best and only way for Tog to get a grip on the game and create its virtual "inevitability."  Tog needs time to facilitate its gameplan and mana denial seems to be the best way to do that by buying a few extra turns to answer threats and cast intuition thus beginnign the card drawing.  I have tried many other routes wtih Tog and this by far seems to be the best way to about since just about every popular or top tier deck is dependent on its acceleration.  Fish isn't but that really just means it switches the role to being dependent on its own stopping tools meaning that hitting their lands and destroying their artifacts creates the same window.
 

Card Choices

No Deep Analysis- DA is such a bad card for Tog right now because the metagame is aggro based.  Further, nobody is playing ak.  I don't really understand why people feel the need to run this card since it really doesn't help you in this metagame. There really isn't any reason to play DA unless your in a control heavy metagame since its slow, clunky, and has no real value.

No Tinker-Colossus- I had this here originally but it was cut ultimately because Fish loves to go chalice for 0 first turn and that means that tinker loses alot of its appilcation.  Yes, there are shamans here but tinker was really put into tog to give it a better early game, so if chalice makes it a mid-game to late game win condition, then there isn't any real reason to play colossus over another tog.

2 Intuition- After alot of testing, 2 intuition seems to be better here than the norm of 3.  The reason being that since the only thing you can intuition for now is ak, then it loses alot of its application because there are too many siutations where intuition is dead later or if your forced to play early aks on their own.  Therefore, I replaced the 3rd for a merchant scroll since the scroll can essentailly do the same thing as the intution only you'd much rather see or topdeck a scroll after the first intuition or late game as well.

4 Cunning Wish-  This is more of a metagame call but as I see it generally becoming a norm now to most avid present Tog players.  The fact that Tog can effectively run and use 4 wishes is honestly one of its greatest strengths.  4 wishes means that you always have access to the right answers and the 2 for 1's that are so key in this metagame right now, like lava dart, fire/ice, and rack and ruin.  If control comes back then I could see going to 3 for da or something but for now wish is way better for this metagame and in general.

Gorilla Shaman- Simply put, this guy is the nuts right now.  He has so much widespread application to this metagame, its not funny.  Hitting the usual moxen and such is crucial now with the speed of workshop and stax as well as the apparent return to welders. He completes the mana denial plan with the wastes and he's even a house against Fish since he hits the most problamatic cards in aether vial and chalice.  I can't describe how good shaman is right now.   

Wasteland- Wasteland is everywhere right now.  Its perhaps the most widely played land in the metagame.  But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be here also.  In fact, I would have to go further to say that wasteland is a must in Tog right now for a couple reasons.  The main reason being that Tog is one of the slowest control decks in the format and as such needs more time to carry out its game plan.  Wasteland helps this out in that it slows the game down to allow Tog to play out its draw and win as well as serve as an answer to problamatc lands like workshop, factory, bazaar and boseiju.  Wasteland and Shaman together accomplish the primary goal, especially in light of the "i can play all the non-bascis I want now" attitude following the restriction of trinisphere.  The last reason is because wasteland along with the other MD answers like 4 wish make Fish a favorable match game 1.  I shit you not, wasteland goes along way here to improving the fish match and pair that up with easy access to artifact destruction and firestorm, and you've got fish beat game 1.  Without wasteland, tog is usually outraced and outbrokened by the top decks and as such I believe is a must.

So this is where I see Tog right now.  I honestly believe that this deck a house in the current metagame and think that you should really take some time and test it before writing it off.  You really don't have anything to lose while if you were looking for control deck that doesn't lose to Fish and can kick the crap out of workshop, you have everything to gain.

Thoughts?

-John

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

How's that manabase treating you? With only 2 basics and 4 fetches, fish (and stax) can be a pretty horrific matchup. Not to mention 5 of your 24 mana sources produce colorless. Stax can totally capitalze off your mana screw, as they have sphere of resistance (good luck casting Wish) and crucible. It seems a bit sketch, but I'll have to do some testing before I can judge it.

Also, is green really worth it? mutation is nice and all, but Rack and ruin does the same thing. You do get berserk, which is wonderful, but the italians have been doing just dandy with fling. Also, it's not like you can't just attack for the win.

Also, I really disagree with the exclusion of tinker/colossus. It's June 20th. People will be playing pithing needles....granted you do have shaman, but I can see it being a big annoyance. Also, you've got 4 wish and 2 shaman to deal with chalice. Putting that colossus into play is a much bigger threat than tog (as with tog, they've still got blockers and it doesn't trample).

Other than those points, I really like the deck. No DA is def. the correct call, as is 4 wish.

-Bob

[Moxlotus]

Is Mind Twist better than Duress #3? 

Also one of the main reasons Tog hasn't been doing well is its bad matchups are extremely popular in the US-especially the NE.  Fish has made New England its home and CS/Gifts decks have been dominating there too-things Tog doesn't like to see.  Possibly the move away from Null Rods, Dazes and Spiketails will make the Fish matchup easier, but I'm not sure.

[Cross]

I played a couple games against this and I can attest that the mind twist is brutal when you're playing fish.

I am a huge fan of the mainboard gorilla shamans, which are incredible against cahlice based fish now.

I also question the inclusion of green right now, especially when the italians have used fling to great success. Artifact mutation can be incredible but is the green splash worth it?

[xrizzo]

Gorilla Shaman- Simply put, this guy is the nuts right now.  He has so much widespread application to this metagame, its not funny.  Hitting the usual moxen and such is crucial now with the speed of workshop and stax as well as the apparent return to welders. He completes the mana denial plan with the wastes and he's even a house against Fish since he hits the most problamatic cards in aether vial and chalice.  I can't describe how good shaman is right now.   

Totally agree there.  Any deck I am considering post Saviours will run at least 2x Shaman because he is good against ALL archtypes right now.

I don't agree with cutting Tinker/DSC because you get so many randomly stupid wins, but that is personal preference.  Tog is really underrated right now.

[Wollblad]

I can strongly recommend Engineered Explosives which has shown very useful to me. I should not deny that it is partly because the Tinker/DSC combo, but also because it is another way to remove virtually anything as long as you keep Null Rod of the table. Note that you can play it for colorless mana and circumvent Chalice for zero.

Regarding Mind Twist I can only agree that i should be MD. It makes crazy things against all decks.

I have not been missing green which I believe should be cut. Fling is not a perfect replacement, but close to it. The only really good thing you will loose is Ground Seal, but I have been doing OK without it. You should also cut Wasteland. It is still best to play Tog by "just drop the Tog and win". If you desperately need Wasteland, you are playing the deck wrong.

[Ultima]

@ Bob and others

As far as the manabase, it has been performing very well for me.  I know your worried about them hitting you with wastes but the way the match up really plays out is that they tend to get more screwed by your wastelands then you theirs.  Aganist Stax, you just wanna counter the COW and they get screwed under their own sphere and in most cases now, tangle wire.

Where fish is concerned, the only thing that you really need to counter early is probably aether vial because it gets around drain.  Other than that, your wastes can literally hose them most games because of their low mana count as well.  When it comes to mana disruption, your the aggressor which is why the manabase has been working I'm sure.

As far as the green, there have been too many games where berserk was that important.  Beserk steals games that you sometimes have no business winning and playing 4 wishes compounds that threat.  Additionally, because its an aggro environment here, i think berserk is that much more important.  You gotta remember that Fling is aweful in aggro metas and Italy and other foreign metas are mostly control and combo.

As far as tinker-colossus, again, its a metagame call.  Yes, it can just win early but that's not really a good enough reason to me since chalice for 0 makes tinker a late game plan thus meaning tog is better since you can play him mid-game, its one more free slot and drawing colossus is really bad.  Yes you have shaman and 4 wish but that really just means that you have expend extra resources to kill something that could be easier solved just by playing another tog.  Its more effort for the same goal and extra expenditure can mean the difference in winning and losing.

Again the testing will speak for itself.

[Revvik]

Again the testing will speak for itself.

And I thought I had my deck for tonight all worked out.  I'll definitely have to throw this together.  Props on keeping Green, by the way - Fling is in no way a replacement for Berserk, especially in a metagame shifting towards Aggro, plus you get all-purpose hosers like Ground Seal, Drop of Honey, and the bullet Artifact Mutation.

[Yames]

As much as I would like to see the return of Hulk Smash, I do not think this is the time for it.  Look back at why Hulk had to be taken off the tier 1 list.  Fish started being played everywhere and it is a bad match up for Hulk.  It is safe to say that more people are playing fish today then they were a year ago.  We now see G/U and W/U more often then the R/U that messed up our game plan.  It doesn't change the fact that they play the most disruptive balance of mana denial, counters and little beats.  If you want to bring hulk back it would be best if you could smash Fish consistently and convince the fish players to switch decks.

[Revvik]

Fish decks aren't running nearly as many of the cards that put Hulk Smash away.

[Ultima]

As much as I would like to see the return of Hulk Smash, I do not think this is the time for it.  Look back at why Hulk had to be taken off the tier 1 list.  Fish started being played everywhere and it is a bad match up for Hulk.  It is safe to say that more people are playing fish today then they were a year ago.  We now see G/U and W/U more often then the R/U that messed up our game plan.  It doesn't change the fact that they play the most disruptive balance of mana denial, counters and little beats.  If you want to bring hulk back it would be best if you could smash Fish consistently and convince the fish players to switch decks.

The thing is that this version of Smash isn't designed for a control metagame, its designed for an aggro meta.  All the clunky stuff like deep analysis has been dumped and the MD has access to way more answers.  Fish is not always an automatic bad match-up for Tog, rather i would even go so far as to say that this version of Tog almost has a favorable match-up against Fish game 1 because of wasteland and wish then more so game 2 when you side in some of the removal and blasts.  Again, test the match-up first and you might be pleasantly suprised.

[silvernail]

I must say that if you fear fish i believe pyroclasm in board and engineered explosives main are really good answers to that problem.

With more artifacts main you could reliably play Tinker/Colossus as well as run thirst for knowledge over AK/Intuition, which may or may not be a good idea but should merit testing in that thirsts draws you three cards compared to intuitions one and AK/Int takes up more slots which could be used for control ( id run 4 thirst and 2 EE over ak/int myself).

And one last thing: merchant scroll? when Ive cast or seen this spell cast it almost always equals Ancestral Recall or cunning wish if recall is already gone, would it be better to run vampiric tutor here as it is more versatile?

and now for the most random part of this post, the list comes close to some CS builds what about making a transformational SB to CS?

[rvs]

I've tested the deck tonight and I have to say I was surprisingly impressed with how well it run. I changed the SB around a little (Engineered Plague over Dart and a Purge to combat Welders and Spirit Tokens) and went -1 wish, +1 EE, although I'm not certain which would be better. I like the EE in some matchups, but in others, wish could be better.

I was also very impressed with Merchant Scroll. Especially now that I was down to 3 wishes, it was even more great that it already is. The Manabase _is_ and issue, but not as much as it seems on paper. As long as you play it smart, you should be ok.

I'm wondering though, if the Mox Pearl should be a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring though. Mana Crypt is probably too risky even though you have 2 Shamans, but Sol Ring is probably better. Did anyone try/consider it?

Another thing: Might it be a good idea to go down to 1 reb in the board, and side in 2 DA's for Control/AK-Mirrors. REB often doesn't stop the key spells most control decks have (namely, Yawg's Will), and DA is still pretty good.

[Lord of the Goats]

what's up ultima? I'm glad to see people taking tog seriously as well. i actually played it at Rochester finishing 5-3 loosing 1 match to my own play errors and 2 to my opponents drawing better cards than me (first turn loa games 2 and 3 sucks). i was very happy playing hulk because i metagames against aggro (like you have). i ran deep anal, and they pretty much just pitched to fow so they will likely get cut.

however we differ on many points. 

1) green- i didn't play it and i never missed it. i was hesitant to cut it because fling blows nuts against aggro....
2) tinker/colossus- with mystical in the sb this is really nuts. i won my first 3 rounds by tinkering w/ fow backup.... not intuition, no drain, no drawing cards. really, it gives you the same plan as berseking tog except that it's not dependant on drawing cards. it's also all blue and doesn't require more than one colored mana a turn in the case of crucible lock, b2b, or bloodmoon. it was gold for me all day.
3) tog. this is the big one. in testing i never cast tog. not once. it was just easier to get tinker when there was an opening and win rather than using that opening to draw cards to make a bigger opening so tog was big enough to win. it was simpler and a constant threat to be able to tinker. think about how you play when your opponent Can but out a 11/11 on any turn vs how they treat a tog. anyway, i cut tog for a triskelllion which was really good vs slaver and fish... i never used that either and I'm certain that it will be a shaman. i honestly think that tog no longer actually needs to use tog. i know bushman never cast tog either and he was interested in what i ran over tog.
4) wastes-  i didn't run them. i ran the 4th volcanic, 4th sea, a sol ring (to tinker under chalice for 0), and another fetch. stability is very important vs any deck running wastes so i figured since the main reason to play tog is that you get 4 wish and wish costs 3.... that i didn't want to be wasting as aggressively as i should. thus i chose the stability of being able to cast and use cunning wish over the ability to waste. but this could go either way.

aside, clown of tressorhorn, did you get the survival i signed yet?

[Smmenen]

I honestly just don't know anymore.

I was helping Joe prepare for Rochester and in our testing he NEVER killed me with Tog - he always won with Colossus.

I also agree that I dont' think the Green is necesary anymore UNLESS You are relying on the Tog heavily - which it looks like you are again... although its hard to tell.

Unfortunately, Deep has sucked... you are right. 

Maybe the mana denail route is the way to go now...However, maybe Tog is going to have problems with Needle. 

[onelovemachine]

Is Mind Twist better than Duress #3?

I think a more appropriate question would be, " Is mind twist good right now?"  In my opinion, the answer is clearly no.  Running into fish and shop round after round at richmond taught me something, tog doesn't have to metagame for control decks.  It is one of the better ones out there in terms of the mirror.  Something like E.E. might actually be playable in the current metagame.

4 Cunning Wish

As an avid supporter of the 4 cunning wish tog builds for quite a while now I can proudly say that this is not the correct call.  Imho fish is the deck you metagame for as it is both a top contender and a poor matchup.  Wish is too slow there as it won't actually find you your answer until you have been beat in the face a few times which can be uncomfortable.  Again a maindeck card like E.E seems good in its place. 

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Stripmine
 

1 Berserk
1 Gush
1 Lava Dart/Artifact Mutation
1 Firestorm
1 Rushing River
1 Naturalize
1 Fire/Ice
2 Coffin Purge
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast

Hrm.   Uhmmm.... Hrm.
On its own the manabase seems solid enough.  But your win condition is black and requires underground sea, mox or lotus to cast.  I just don't see enough black mana for me to be comfortable with.  Also, you can't support any other green cards besides berserk.  It won't work. 

All in all I like the concept and will give it a try. 

[Godot]

Its an interesting build and hopefully I'll get some time to give a whirl at some point this week.  A few of my initial thoughts though:

1) You say the decks primary strategy is mana denial, so have you tested/given any thought to running Crucible?  Beyond the obvious strength of recurring Strip effects, never missing a land drop in the control mirror is obv huge, as is bringing back that needed black/green/red source against opposing strips.

2) To echo what others have already said I really prefer Tinker/Colossus to Psychatog as the kill.  After discussing the deck with Lord of the Goats on saturday I ran Tog at the Syracuse P9 and I only ever actually cast Tog once.  Its main job was getting pitched to force.  The Colossus was just a much stronger threat that my opponents had more trouble dealing with no matter whether I dropped it in the eary, mid or late game.  Also since it already has trample Colossus/Fling is practically as effective as Tog/Berserk w/out the addition of a 4th color.

3)  I really cant see how this beats stax consistently.  I understand that its built to deal with the fish meta, but theres a shitload of stax around too.

Im looking forward to playing around with this, nice job.

[silvernail]

this is the list I'm currently testing

    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Island
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Psychatog
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    4 Force of Will
    3 Cunning Wish
    2 Engineered Explosives
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Mind Twist
    2 Duress
    4 Brainstorm
SB: 1 Starstorm
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Fling
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying

and it is decently set up vs fish with 2 EE MD 2 pyroclasm SB and a starstorm for a wish target as well as misdirection for ancestrals burn swords or bounce. you could get even jankier and run 2 pyroclasm main and no togs and that might be pretty savage. This uses the thirst/EE setup over AK/Int which should be fine with the lot of artifact mana being ran.

and about mind twist, nuking some ones hand is usually a good thing no matter what deck they are playing because it denies them the ability to play magic, which if your opponent isn't playing then your more likely to win.

also about the mana denial concept, this deck is trying to setup a lethal tog or colossus , and wastelanding your opponent isn't really helping that as much as you need it to, your primary goal is to setup a board where there is no contest to your lethal creature and then back it up with counters.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

aside, clown of tressorhorn, did you get the survival i signed yet?

Hell yes! It's in the most SAVAGE T4 stack. It's the coolest lookin' signed card I own (even beats out the chains signed by Cron).

Ok, back to Tog.

I've been thinking lately, and the mana denial aspect of tog seems extremely strong. Shutting stax off colored mana or a shop is HUGE. Although, I'm not certain 5 strip effects is the way to go. You don't want to totally play the mana denial route, like fish or stax, you simply want to stall long enough for you to win. I was thinking the manabase could look something like:

4 Fetch
3 Sea
3 Volc
3 Island
5 Moxes
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus
3 Waste
1 Strip

The sol ring is still in the deck because I'm still playing tinker colossus. If you fear Chalice, play an explosives or two, even if they drop chalice 0 turn 1, you could easily play explosives for 0 off a wasteland, drain mana, or sol ring (or hell, just use that to tinker). Also, Explosives is generally an AMAZING card vs. fish, as all their threats are at the 2 mana CC.

I'll def. be playtesting Smash in the coming weeks.

-Bob

[Rico Suave]

I have a question, do you find Intuition-AK to be too slow for the modern environment?  There are many control-esque decks that pack the Duress/Drain/Force/broken-cards package, yet pack arguably more efficient engines in TFK, Gifts, and you could even say Scrying.  What advantages are there to playing Intuition over these other engines?

[Godot]

I have a question, do you find Intuition-AK to be too slow for the modern environment?

In a word, yes.  I've been dissatisfied with Intuition/AK for quite a while but only recently, in my opinion, has an alternative become viable in this archetype.

[Vegeta2711]

Intuition-AK really just seems like a bad TFK at this point in time. TFK, if you have an artifact to discard, nets one more card than Intu-AK. If you don't, it actually nets the same amount of cards. Still either way Intu-AK costs 5 and TFK costs 3. 

In other news EE is insane, Tog basically should be replaced by Tinker -> DSC and drawing cards is overrated.

[xrizzo]

Intuition-AK really just seems like a bad TFK at this point in time. TFK, if you have an artifact to discard, nets one more card than Intu-AK. If you don't, it actually nets the same amount of cards.

Not true.  TFK nets you the same amount of cards WITH an artifact, and 1 less card without.

Assume only intuition or TFK in hand:
--Intuition for AKs, draw 3.  You get +2 cards in hand.
--Thirst into 3 cards, discarding either 1 or 2.  You have either 1 or two left in hand depending on the artifact count. 

I agree that thirsts can be better (and certainly more compact) than inuition/AK, but with a deck whose artifacts consist of the acceleration mana and 2 EE, I am not really sure you want to be pitching those cards.

[Revvik]

Not to mention Intuition's synergy with the rest of the deck, and AK number 4 can happen much sooner than a third Thirst for Knowledge.  The better engine for this deck is more than likely Intuition/AK.

[silvernail]

Id have to say that the one thing intu/ak does for you that TFK doesnt is thin your deck a bit more, meaning your chance to draw any given card increases. Intuition can also do things thirst cant, it can net you a particular type of card( 3 moxes or 3 tutors); or if you run 3 or more of the card, the actual card you want. Barring that TFK freees up 2 slots and costs 2 mana less so which engine is better, i dont know ill test and see

[Vegeta2711]

Whoops, my bad, I simply was counting Intuition in there on accident.

Still basic point stands, TFK draws basically the same number of cards (or let's you see as many) for cheaper.

Not to mention Intuition's synergy with the rest of the deck, and AK number 4 can happen much sooner than a third Thirst for Knowledge. The better engine for this deck is more than likely Intuition/AK.

What synergy with the rest of the deck? Once you take out DA and reduce the number of Tog's what exactly are you going to Intuition for? Only thing I see is Cunning Wish unless you'd like to run a really long tutor chain. Adding 3 mana to your draw spells is just bad. The fact that you basically need to resolve Intuition, AK#3 and the remaining AK in the deck just to come close to outdrawing your opponents says a lot.

[nataz]

@ those suggesting not running tog, and switching to DSC,

doesn't vial + rootwater thief + meddling mage scare the shit outta you?

Both UG and UW fish decks are running thief now, and mage is probably the most popular fish creature around. It would seem to me in a sea of fish, a single DSC would be really risky.

[Revvik]

doesn't vial + rootwater thief + meddling mage scare the shit outta you?

Yes, yes it does.  I probably won't be making THAT particular change.

What synergy with the rest of the deck? Once you take out DA and reduce the number of Tog's what exactly are you going to Intuition for? Only thing I see is Cunning Wish unless you'd like to run a really long tutor chain. Adding 3 mana to your draw spells is just bad. The fact that you basically need to resolve Intuition, AK#3 and the remaining AK in the deck just to come close to outdrawing your opponents says a lot.

For one, it overkills Yawgmoth's Will, something Thirst for Knowledge doesn't do nearly as well - especially if your version of the deck can't squeeze in that many artifacts AND has decided against Deep Analysis.  This happened to me three times yesterday:
Me: "EOT, Intuition"
Opponent: "Sure"
Me: "I'll get Time Walk, Card X, and Card Y"
Opponent: "Alas!  I have no hope!"

This turns situations where Yawgmoth's Will generated more mana than usual, drawing more cards / tutoring for an unused Cunning Wish, and *winning games* that otherwise would have dragged on and resulted possibly in a loss.

Some could make the argument that the Will itself would have won the game.  While it would have definitely put me further ahead and made it harder for the opponent to win, this was "win now."  "Win more?"  Maybe. 
The point is, Intuition has flexibility and works better with the entire deck than Thirst for Knowledge does.  And since you want to see one early, I'm hardly convinced that running less than three is ideal.

[Lord of the Goats]

on darksteel vs thief/mage: running a single darksteel as your omly win conditin is a bad idea for exacty that reason. thus a second win condition is needed imo.... as i said earlier i ran a trisk. if there were a ishable win condition that would be perfect.

[Ultima]

Well I have to say thanks for all the replies.  I'm happpy to see alot of people interested in tog.  My thoughts on what has been said.

A.  As far as the mana denial route goes, I tested 4 strips and it really wasn't enough.  Playing all 5 seemed to be the only way to ensure hitting them with wastes early which is the most important time and relevant time to play them at all.

B. I understand everybodys notion of playing DSC and tinker, but like I said it wasn't consistent enough for me.  Particularly because of the Fish match-up, because the key spell to counter or stop when playing Fish is vial.  If you stop the vial before it becomes active, then you can take the game relatively easily after that meaning you have to not care about chalice for 0.  Plus, drawing the colossus sometimes can be backbreaking.  The bottom line is that I don't like colossus because I don't feel it be a consistent enough EARLY GAME win condition because of chalice, therefore since its mid to late game, I'd rather have a tog which doesn't have any real conditions like needing an artifact or not drawing it.

C.  As far as intuition/ak, i really don't see how people can compare to gifts, thirts, and scrying.  Intuition/ak gives you far more draw and better odds for a lesser cost.  Each one of the other engines are conditional one way or another.

1. Thirst means you have to have an artifact and your deck needs to be designed to house it for it to actually give you card advantage.

2. Scrying is better but is color sensitive in a metagame where you probably want to fetch islands first, not seas and scrying is almost never active in the early game, and is more mana intensive for it to be worth it.

3. Gifts is probably the best between them and is the only one that thins your deck and makes it better but is really only comparable to intuition itself. Gifts is more of a big tutor than a draw spell.  Its also the most mana intensive and most conditional of the others because you need to play the recusion cards like recoup for it to be worth it. 

Intuition/ak has no conditons other than you should run either 4 aks and or 2-3 deep analysis for it to be a draw engine.  Its not as mana intenisve as its made out to be because it doens't need five mana immediately, only 3.  Your commitment to it is spread out over a series of turns, meaning it comes online faster and isn't as restrictive as others. You gotta remember that everytime you use intution your deck gets better before you even use the ak.   I would take intution/ak over another engine overall unless I was playing a welder deck.