A thought on TPS

[LUPO]

I know that TPS has all but been replaced by Gifts, and with good reason.  But I am a combo player at heart and hate to see the thing die, so I have spent a good amount of time thinking about it.  I have an idea that I think can help the deck work better when fighting through a sea of Chalices and null rods, as well as make it less reliant on Yawgmoths will for its Kill.

My idea is to dramatically up the number of Rebuilds in the deck, from 1 to 3.  This is a fairly new thought, but with all the artifacts out there as well as the ability to ramp up storm when you re-cast all of your own moxes, this may be the solution that the deck needs.  Other benefits of rebuild, it is an answer to colossus, it cycles, and it counters a welder activation.

I am still digging around for my old list, as it has been a while since I have played it.  But from what I remember, I can create two slots by removing the tinker colossus combo.  I also would like to add in one Cabal Ritual, to allow for greater searching power with the Gifts.  Not sure what I can take out with for that though. I would also replace the chain of vapor with an echoing truth or Rushing river.  Chalice for 1 is the big threat, and a one casting cost bounce spell is not an answer.

My other thoughts were adding red for a burning wish and recoup (with Wheel of Fortune in the board), but that will remove the decks resilliancy to wasteland.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Mike

[doylehancock]

I like the idea (though I like hurkyls recall better).  I dont like the idea of red due to the fact wastelands are everywhere and UB TPS seems to be the best way.  I will try TPS this way and let you know what I come up with.  How many gifts are you running in your build?

[LUPO]

I have been running and happy with 2 copies of the Gifts.

[Wudil]

Hi, finally, it seems some people take care of TPS and don't let it bite the dust...

I've recently made a Top8 (second after the swiss rounds with a 55 people tournament) with my own TPS.

Firstly, I should say that removing a Chain of Vapor is a good idea as a removal since many decks works with CoTV MD and with 1 counter on it, it of course makes around 16 cards in your deck/hand dead but it also make one of your few removal dead also which is a really bad news.
You could simply replace the Chain for a Rebuild, a Tinker for another and the Colossus for the Cabal Ritual.

This lead me to the point where Cabal Ritual IS sooooo sweet in a Gifted TPS (which is a full turn faster for its kill while being  better against Controle). I simply can't imagine running a cabal-less build since it had a great ability to fix black mana, but makes your gift so juicy when looking for manas.

I'm more and more thinking that Chalices will see less and less use in the future builds (except for Fishes) since the most played and best deck (as I can imagine) is Gift.dec which cannot run them, at least in the MD.
Oath was playing it but it lost attraction from players to Gift or the new Fishes which lead to a less CoTVed metagame.
I think a more versatile card like Echoing Truth could help more in the MD since cards like Meddling Mage, Root Mazes or even multiple Artifact Hates could "appear" and be dealt with it.

About the red splash, I think this needs to be done (You don't really fear wastelands and so on since you're running a really lw number of red cards and you usually don't have to play them till you will kill your opponent, or you simply could play them with the help of Petal, Black or Mox R). But I won't play Burning Wish MD. I've tested it and I always was hoping it would be another card instead of when I was holding it (in the first turns or later).
The Recoup is of course great, but the ability to run one more draw7 in the MD like Wheel of Fortune is really good (way better than any Windfall, Time Spiral and so on...)
It also allows you to play cards like ReB or Pyro Blast in the side, added to Rack and Ruins, Shatering Pulse and so on...

Just FYI, here is the list I ran at the Paris tournament:

MainDeck

1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk

2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Rebuild
1 Recoup

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tendrils of Agony
---------
60 cards

Sideboard:
1 Ebony Charm
1 Rebuild (would change for Rack and Ruin)
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Coffin Purge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Misdirection
1 Fact or Fiction (was useless and same in playtests, would change for maybe a Shattering Pulse)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Engineered Plague
---------
15 cards

Wudil

[Disburden]

Do you really feel it's needed to run red? I partically don't. Look at your mana base. You have a badlands and volcanic. It's true, Fish is all over the place and in all shapes and sizes. Almost all the decks out there run wastelands, and to see that you run three basic lands is rather uneasing. If you compare the U/B build of tps you'll notice the mana base is extremely strong. This is one of the biggest reasons why the deck is so good, it runs FIVE basic lands. My point is, all I see is the wheel of fortune in your maindeck for red, and that's the only reward you seem to get for cutting out basics and adding unneeded duals.

[Phele]

I see a Recoup, and that's the main reason for running Red.

On topic: I don't think it's needed to run more thant two Rebuild and even that is pretty much. If you want to go the bounce and storm route, why not run more Cunning Wishes or Merchant Scrolls for finding the needed Rebuild?

[Disburden]

I see a Recoup, and that's the main reason for running Red.

On topic: I don't think it's needed to run more thant two Rebuild and even that is pretty much. If you want to go the bounce and storm route, why not run more Cunning Wishes or Merchant Scrolls for finding the needed Rebuild?

First, I think what I posted about splashing red was ON Topic since there was multiple posts on the subject before I even posted, including decklists with red splash. Second I apologize for missing the recoup, but I still stand on my view that U/B is superior, red still shakes up one of the main strengths of the deck - A LOT of basic lands. This, ofcourse, is preference but I thought it would be worth mentioning since no one on this thread mentioned anything about having to run more duals and less basics once red is added. I think that point was severly ignored, so I mentioned it.

[LUPO]

Here is the list that I have put together.  The two cards right on the sidelines are Tinker and Frantic Search.

5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Snow Covered Island
1 Snow Covered Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoths Bargin
3 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Cunning Wish
1 Minds Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony


I am psyched about playing it on Sunday

[Moxlotus]

You have a Jar but no Tinker?????

[BigMac]

I have been playing TPS for 18 months now constantly changing the deck and sideboard. I have made changes that were terrible and i made changes That worked out great. I have been constantly trying to adapt to new threats.

The last route i have taken it is with a transformational sideboard. (see my article on why and how) With the four times i played this deck (for last time see tournament report for matchups) i made top 8 three times. So i think TPS is far from dead.

The adaptations i have seen here are well within the normal line of thinking and will have some impact. However the bigger the change the lesser people will expect, nor adapt quickly enough to it.

Let me make some arguments. I read some reasoning about chalice getting played less because of gifts decks, as they are good and will not run them. So why not run chain instead then as you can chain the colossus when it is tinkered in. Costs less mana and can also be used for the combo. (personally i don't thinkchalices will disappear) Lets say gifts is the new deck, then why remove the tinker colossus part, as it will give you the time to combo out as his colossus will no get past yours. And how many decks will recover from a turn 1 colossus. I think it is a to good turn 1 to take out. Besides, it will devastate fish.

Playing 3 rebuilds may be to much. Play 1 hurkyl's recall and 1 or 2rebuilds if you fear chalice 1 so much. But be prepared to me even slower than before giving other decks way more chance to kill you before you combo out.

My strategy is to get a whole new strategy after game 1. This leaves my opponent with a wrong gameplan and i can disrupt his more easily. And don't get me wrong. i will leave in my combo for a bit to be able to combo him out when the opportunity presents itself.

My point being: TPS is adapting just as other decks and it is still played.

Getting less players to play TPS i think is because it is a difficult deck to play and really master. Because of the window of opportunity s little and the margin for mistake is little as well.

Well anyways, keep up the work and keep adapting as it is way from dead.

[venice]

@Lupo: As BigMac already stated having 3 Rebuild + 1 Echoing Truth + 1 Cunning Wish mainboard is way to much bounce. With a figuration like that it will often occur that you draw into multiple Rebuilds when you just don´t want/need them. Just imagine playing against Oath and holding double Rebuild in your starting hand - that´s just awful!
Also, if you want to play with Gifts I highly recommend a red splash; at least for Recoup. Since you fit in one Cabal Ritual the Recoup plan makes even more sense to me. (Gifting for Recoup / Will / Lotus / Cabal Ritual with already five cards in grave is a nice play) And please, don´t leave Vampiric Tutor and Tinker from your list...

Thus, I suggest the following changes to your list:

-1 Sea / +1 Volcanic , Badlands
-2 Rebuild / +1 Vampiric +1 Tinker
-1 Fact / + 1 Recoup


-venice-

[Liam-K]

I've been busily mangling a Long decklist to see what sort of tech I can dredge up for the past little while.  Be forewarned that though I've tried to test, my only means of doing so is mwsplay and results there have no value at all

That said, I've enjoyed multiple rebuilds in the main as storm builders.  However, they usually seem like overkill.  I've had a very hard time putting them to use effectively unless I've already gone off conventionally due to mana issues.  I find myself running into colour screw when I Rebuild with only 3 mana in artifacts on the table and less than 7 cards in hand.  I like them, but assembling the coloured mana [edit: over the course of the turn, not for Rebuild itself] can be very difficult without recurring rituals.  While Rebuild does help with this, I'm not convinced running them makes going off without Yawgwill a strong gameplan.

If you're going to run Rebuild as a storm builder, then I feel Frantic Search is correct.  It's dig, colour fixing, free and +storm.  These effects on a resource-starved combo turn outweigh the -1 card advantage.

[MaxxMatt]

@Wudil

I think that you list is pretty good and it can be considered "standard" at now.
Some of my teammates are playing a similar thing with minor differencies.

From my personal point of view I would Cut/Add:

-1 Wheel
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Duress
+1 LoA
+1 FoF
+1 Skeletal

-You could swap the DSC in the side but with Recoup it is another good way to kill people quickly and constantly. I usually apply the DSC-Plan during game 2 and 3 when needed. Sometime I missed the Tendrils#2.
-Wheel is so strong but so simmetrical that a lot of times it is only a bad TImetwister or an Y Will enhancer with the drawback of gifting your opponent with possibly god-hands.
-Skeletal and FoF can be easily maindecked to consistently produce asimmetrical card's advantage during opponent's EoT. i found them better than the other drawers.
-Brainfreeze is and appetible way of killing opponents. I have done it more than I thought, especially with the help of some huge MInd's Desire. I'm toying about adding another Wish in some places.
-At now, I found that a single Rebuild and one or two Wishes are enough to bounce back the opponent's hate.

While I have some good results with the Red Addition and with the Tinker-Recoup-Walk-Y.Will lethal combo, I'm sure that consistency would be regarded in a better way.
From this point of view, I think that I WOULD ALWAYS play 2 Tendrils of Agony and 2 Cunning Wishes in my maindeck, leaving DSC in the side for some specific matchups.
4 Winning Conditions, two of which are transmutable in utilities, is the perfect number to survive and win against anything. No hate could touch you with a single activation and only a slow combination of different things can shut up you.

I tried both the Winners configuration ( the one with DSC and the one Without it ) and I found that I prefer maindecking it ONLY in a metagame with a lot of Hate-dec and Fishes.dec. In all the other cases I'm sure that Tendrils and Brainfreeze would win more games to me.




@LUPO.
If you are going to up the number of Rebuilds for your own reasons ( both to rise up the storm count and to protect yourself from opponent's DSC ) I'm going to suggest you to play with more Tendrils.
1 is really too few. Knowing the deck and realizing where your strategy would carry you while playing such a deck, I'm sure that you would often find hands filled with Accelerators and Bouncers, without having the ability to play medium sized Tendrils to go for the win.

If you want more Rebuilds in you deck, I think that you are playing the deck aggressively, in order to generate mana and storm as soon as your opponent have his defences lowered by something.
Lowering to the minimum number the Tendrils count is counterintuitive to me at this point. I would play with two of them, maybe cutting the worst among the bouncers: Echoing Truth.

Try to cut the Cabal Ritual, going down to 28 mana fonts and play the Tinker-Colossus combo or at least try to fit in Tinker. You HAVE to use it because it enable you to play with DSC OR JAR, without losing one of them, that are strong in different situations.

I'll hope that it could help.

[Wudil]

@MaxxMatt:

Thanks for the advices.

I'd like to say that most of the metas here in France have quite many "weird" decks and fiches.dec (aggro and aggro/controle) in the first games. This is the reason why I've recently switch back the colossus in the maindeck and I should say that it also helps against decks packing Laboratories against us which is an easy way to win through when having Duress and Tinker ready to play.

About the changes you've told me, I would never ever remove the lone Cabal Ritual from my main. I was playing two of them before and it was really really great in there but as I had to make room to fit my different choices, I had to remove one of them. The last one is sooooooo cute that I can't imagine playing a Gifted TPS without it, and mostly don't understand people not playing it in their build, if you didn't, you should try it and you will love it for sure.

About the LoA, I've been toying with it since I saw people playing it and as I didn't understand why but I shall say that being an off color land, a really nice target for LD and that it can be quite good (not great) only after several turns let me remove it as I originaly thought.

About the FoF issue, I prefered to run a second Gift in its slot. I simply don't see where I could fit in since Cabal Ritual can't be removed, Duress in THE card (with FoW) I want to see against any controle.dec in order to force a bomb through which most of the time leads me to the win.

For the Skeletal Scrying, I've been thinking that this could be a really good asymmetrical drawer which can't be ReBed and so on... but I don't see where I could fit it in my MD except for my beloved Wheel. It helped me a lot to combo 1 turn sooner than I could before (plus saying 7 cards for 3 manas is always better than 2 for the same amount) when forcing my opponent to mulligan when having a hand he thought well (of not great). It also happened that my opponent touched the FoW or Drain with UU open he was looking for when I tried to combo out but it was really rare and could be prevented (sometime) by having my own FoW or duress too.
I think I will eventually try this card in the Wheel slot in order to see if it worth its place.

I originally played 2 copies of Tendrils for a long long time when playing TPS and since I switched back DSC in the maindeck, I should say that all of the time I wanted to kill in the storm way, I never had problem finding my lone copy. I also already met some Cranial Extraction or Extraction (the one for U) and I still have 2 ways to kill my opponent, so it wasn't a problem for me to do that.

Since I had some problems with my manabase (forcing me to mulligan or losing while being too much striped), I was thinking if replacing a fetch (Bloodstained Mire) by a basic land (Swamp or Island...? Maybe Swamp to get an original 2/2 basics configuration) could be a good thing.

I've seen the primer of TPS Negator has made and was wondering if ToGs in the SB would worth it. Personally, I'm playing with Engineered Plague and Night Soul Betrayal and they were gold in the matchups they were intented to. They're also more versatile since they can come in against Welder.dec and Oath.dec if I've won the first game (which usually happen)
The only matchup I can meet where ToGs would be way better than my "hosers" would be Workshop aggro decks, can't think of any others (even Madness would be really affected by my choice while having most of the thougher creatures for the aggro and aggro/controle decks)

I've also been toying with a pair of Mystic Remora some time ago against other Storm.dec and I was wondering if they couldn't come in against other decks such as Stax.dec and Controle/combo decks where they always have to establish a board controle and/or hand controle with artifact accelerations and/or drawers/manipulators.
Anyone has tested them in that purpose?

@BigMac: I've seen your posts about TPS but to resume, I always thought (by reason or not) that sacrifiying the whole manabase (which is one of the best weapon TPS has) in order to make a "surprise" to your opponent by having a big transformal SB doesn't worth it (it also makes you lose some slots dedicated to good answers in your sideboard) but it already had been discussed. Congratulatins on your good results with it anyway 

@Lupo: How were your results with TPS? Any news?

Wudil