Legacy gets suprise support from wizards.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Check the latest article of Brain David-Marshall at wizards.com.

From the article:

"While the details of the next season of the Pro Tour have not been outlined yet (but wait until you get wind of the surprises in store for next year – the Players Club and the Players Lounge were just the beginning), Wizards has determined the format for two Constructed Grand Prix events that will take place during the PTQ season in November and December of this year.

And the format is … Legacy!"

Personally, I'm very surprised,and pleased, with this news. Legacy always looked like an interesting format to me that got zero attention of here. Perhaps now that will change. The only downside is that looks like goblins will be verry strong, and I HATE goblins. But he, I guess having the option of playing in a format in which goblins is strong is beter then not having the option at all.

So what do you guys think of this suprise support? Will it affect Vintage badly because the price of FoW and Duals might increase? Or will it make vintage more competitive because more Pro's will get there hands on old cards, and thus might be more interested in playing vintage? (not likly but it could happen)

[Kowal]

I see a lot of people losing interest in Vintage when Legacy becomes more supported.  Personally, I'm getting kind of bored with how stupid this format is capable of getting.  I'll be taking this weekend off to go play 1.5 in New Hampshire.

[KrauserKrauser]

My only gripe with Legacy is that it is horribly underpowered.  I mean with the existence of FoW, Swords, Maze of Ith, Survival, etc there is no excuse for the format to be arguably less broken than current Extended since there are so many more fixers and way to defend against brokenness.

You are never going to be able to reach the speed of Vintage in Legacy, but that's fine, I just think that you should be able to meet or beat the speed found in the current Extended format.  They've enabled the tools for fast combo with Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Both Moxen and LED but they took out all the good uses for those cards. 

What would be so wrong with an unbanned Dragon?  No bazaar would mean that Intuition or Buried Alive would have to be used.  Possible a modified Mad-Dragon would be the correct approach, but it would still just be Survival resolving which already wins the game in the current format.

Why does Metalworker have to go?  No workshops means he's coming out turn 2, 1 with a drawback or one use mox.  There is one combo with it that depends on 4 artifacts in hand with the staff in play.  He would make a MUD/Prison deck viable? Oh Gods! We know how that destroys formats, oh wait it just creates another viable alternative to the existing decks, depending almost entirely on one card.

The format is a joke.  They need to lighten up and let the format breath a little, give it a more realistic banned list that adds a bit more power to the format.

[Matt]

The format's fine as it is. There's like a million viable decks, from every part of the metagame clock.

[Moxlotus]

Legacy players can't spooge their pants yet, the article did say that there is no plans for a Legacy PTQ or PT.

[rvs]

The format's fine as it is. There's like a million viable decks, from every part of the metagame clock.

However, there is no 'real' metagame clock, because Legacy isn't widely played yet.

[Sgt. Pepper]

@Matt: Since you are more familiar with Legacy then I am, do you think that the entry cost of Legacy (due to high priced cards) will drastically lower the attendance at the Gran Prix? What would the most expensive, viable, deck be right now?

[Bastian]

There's a good number of currently viable extended decks that I can see getting ported over to Legacy, even if the players can't acquire the duals, so I think that the attendance of both events will be quite large. There isn't such a big gap between extended and Legacy that it makes Legacy that much more expensive than Extended, apart from the duals (duh). There are also some viable monocolored decks that don't rely on duals. Expect them to make a show up: Burn, Angel Stompy quite probably BBS. Heck, I wouldn't even be admired if Suicide Black showed up in mass just because people are not familiar with the format or will be trying it for the first time.

We also have to think that Ravnica will quite probably bring up a new set of duals. There are dual-like lands throughout the time that had an impact on older formats. Although they're quite irrelevant now Apocalypse painlands had an impact when they got printed. The same applies to Onslaught's fetchlands. Will the same happen with Ravnica? Wizards says that they made the set with Legacy in mind, and although they're not quite to be trusted, wasn't Mirrodin made with Vintage in mind as well? And it had a serious impact on the format.

I think that even though players with no duals might be at a disadvantage that many people will be trying the new format, or trying to get cards for it or Vintage players will show up and probably a large number of players with duals that don't use them will show up to play as well. Unfortunetely the price of these stapples is definitly going to skyrocket unless Ravnica's duals are good enough to even the difference between those that have the real thing and those that don't.

Krauser: I was one of the players who bitched the most about the lack of power in the format. Probably the one who did it the most... but with time I found out that we do have enough good cards to make powerful decks that I had thought that weren't initially good enough. Expect new players in the format to revamp some staple decks or to bring something new to it, even if just a single deck... High Tide and Tendrils of Agony combo (Nausea or Long.dec) are great examples of solid, and fast combo decks in the format. Remember that just because something doesn't look broken it doesn't mean it isn't.

A good example: if right now Dragon was unbanned I have already a test deck I made with the current type 1.5 cardpool that can win on turn 2 or 3 consistently with FoW and Duress backup. Isn't that a little bit good enough? Think and test before suggesting what should or not be unbanned. I believe that... well, not in October, but, quite probably later on in December, after the first GP that we might get changes to the list. Until then, be patient and look hard. The format has a lot more potential than it looks at first sight... it happens so that we just hadn't the opportunity to dig up enough yet.

With Ravnica and Portal rotating into Legacy in October I'm very very excited about how the format's going to shape out and how it will look afterwards. I just hope that it becomes popular enough to become a GP format

[Bardo]

However, there is no 'real' metagame clock, because Legacy isn't widely played yet.

There are regional metagames (as in the Austin or Syracuse), but you're right, there isn't enough of a playerbase to develop the kind of metagame you see in Vintage or 1.x. Not now anyhow.

... do you think that the entry cost of Legacy (due to high priced cards) will drastically lower the attendance at the Gran Prix?

No one knows, but not significantly so.

What would the most expensive, viable, deck be right now?

Any deck that realies on playsets of duals and Force of Will: Tog, EBA, etc. As in Vintage, duals and Forces are the non-negotiable building blocks of control decks. You can't make a good deck without them. And two playsets of blue duals and a set of FoW will cost about $225. It's quite a sum, but significantly less than the cost of a single Mox. One way to help alleviate entry cost is to reprint Force of Will in 9th ed.

Moving on. As someone who loves Legacy above any other MtG format, I'm thrilled! I think the location is great too. Philadelphia is a reasonable drive for players as far north as Boston and as far south as Virginia. It's too bad I moved from Philly a few years ago (to Portland, Oregon). But I am much happier since I moved, so I shouldn't complain much.   Philly's a shit-hole.

[Matt]

High Tide decks are pretty cheap. They need Forces, but every blue deck does. Beyond that you have Cunning Wish ($9) fetchlands (which are not absolutely necessary) ($6 - $7), and Reset (widely variable, but $5-$8 is standard).

Vial Goblins is one of the better decks, and that requires almost nothing that isn't in 1.x except Lackeys, which are like $5-$8. And of course we can expect a lot of people to play burn decks, which run like $20 + a set of Chain Lightnings. It's kind of hard to give exact prices on old stuff like that.

Most of the truly expensive newer cards - $15 to $20 stuff like Morphling, Cursed Scroll, and Mox Diamond - aren't actually used very much. For that matter the truly expensive old stuff - Moat, Abyss, Berserk - also isn't played.

However, there is no 'real' metagame clock, because Legacy isn't widely played yet.

That really doesn't have anything to do with the metagame clock. I'm talking about this one. There are viable beatdown, midgame, combo, control, and aggro-control decks. No matter what part of the clock you want to play, there's something viable in that part.

[Machinus]

Reset (widely variable, but $5-$8 is standard).

Please sell me resets for $5.

[Matt]

Get them yourself.

[Killertree]

I predict the value of dual lands will sore.  Buy/trade for them now while they are cheap.

[Raven Fire]

I predict the value of dual lands will sore.  Buy/trade for them now while they are cheap.

How much higher do you think they can go?  Revised was a reasonably sized set so the supply isn't highly limited.  Old Extended was probably more played than Legacy will be based on WotC support and it didn't drive the prices for duals through the roof.  I'm not saying I'm not glad I've already picked up my blue duals, survivals, and an extra set of FoWs, but I'm not counting on the prices getting significantly higher.

[Smmenen]

The format's fine as it is. There's like a million viable decks, from every part of the metagame clock.

Because of my Vintage rating I'll have at least two byes and likely three (esp after my performance at origins this weekend) for GP Philly.  I plan on trying to break the ever living fuck out of this format.  I watched some of the legacy tournaments this past weekend so I have a much better grasp  of the format.  I don't think it will drain Vintage though.

I think the one thing that they should not have done is ban Land Tax. 

[Matt]

You have my absolute blessing in your endeavor. Personally I can think of three popular decks that I think should not be at all viable, but which are nevertheless widely played. See if you can get Tendrils combo to work. Many have tried, but the results haven't been all that encouraging - too much fizzling. If you can get a 60% turn three-or-better goldfish I think you could run a lot of the format over. I would also like to see some kind of CS deck made workable - I've tried and given up multiple times, because they're so totally dependent on Welder (four ways to cheat mana costs are not enough).

I agree about Land Tax, it's definitely the weakest card on the banned list. There's lots of stuff I would love to play with (Entomb and Replenish come to mind) but that I recognize as probably/potentially too powerful. Land Tax is not such a card.

[Smmenen]

Thanks Matt - I wish they'd unban Land Tax.  Is 4 Land Tax + 3 Scroll Rack really so bad?  It might even make a mono white control deck somewhat decent - but dominate?  Nah. 

[Bastian]

But Tendrils IS possible and it can goldfish quite consistently on turn 3. I feel that either Nausea or type 1.5 Long (yes, it exists) can both go off on turn 3 and the only thing preventing either from happening is Spoils of the Vault.

I've been testing Grim Tutor with some success. It won't fizzle when you need something, although sometimes I feel like I needed Spoils of the Vault instead of the Tutor because it's cheaper and I'm a little tight on mana.

[Killertree]

I predict the value of dual lands will sore.  Buy/trade for them now while they are cheap.

How much higher do you think they can go?  Revised was a reasonably sized set so the supply isn't highly limited.  Old Extended was probably more played than Legacy will be based on WotC support and it didn't drive the prices for duals through the roof.  I'm not saying I'm not glad I've already picked up my blue duals, survivals, and an extra set of FoWs, but I'm not counting on the prices getting significantly higher.

My guess is $40 underground seas.

[SpikeyMikey]

We've been discussing decks over at the Source, and come to the conclusion that Solidarity is pretty much the best deck in the format right now.  It's more or less a game of beat Solidarity or beat everything else.  Those decks that are effective against Solidarity are lacking in the Landstill or aggro matchups, those decks that dominate Landstill and the variety of aggro decks out there generally lose hard to Tide.  As far as decks go, it's dirt cheap to put together, if you're not able to buy 4xFoW, there's really no format that you can currently play, a playset of Forces isn't any harder to pick up than a playset of Cranial Extractions.  Goblins w/ black is also very strong, as it's got a fast clock and enough disruption to give it a decent matchup against Tide based Brain Freeze decks.  Both decks are relatively inexpensive to build, consistant, and relatively easy to pilot(as opposed to other things like SotF decks or Nausea).

As far as Steve breaking the format, I think he's going to break it almost as much as Zvi broke T1.

What I'm really interested in is how the results of the Legacy Worlds at GenCon will affect Philly.  Will there be a heavy influence, or are most players going to ignore the results of GenCon and try and "break the format" with their own creations?

[exit music]

As far as Steve breaking the format, I think he's going to break it almost as much as Zvi broke T1.

Yeah, because Smemmy has no idea about cards that are in Legacy. It isn't like they are played in Vintage or anything. You have to remember the idea that Standard, Block, Extended and whatever other formats Zvi specializes in are pretty much nothing at all like type one. And considering the fact that Steven has broken type one a handful of times, I have no doubt he will rip a serious hole in your format.

[Peter_Rotten]

And considering the fact that Steven has broken type one a handful of times, I have no doubt he will rip a serious hole in your format.

Well, damn I hope that he does, but breaking this format may not be as easy as it seems.  The combo decks are shaky and we sure could use a new one to smack the bad aggro back into place.  And while he's at it, he should build something to kill off that hated Landstill deck    Like I said, my current attitude about breaking the format is "the more the merrier."  The more innovation we have, the more likely we can break this stranglehold that Landstill is developing once again.

So innovate away.

Or get WotC to ban Standstill.

[SpikeyMikey]

You're absolutely right.  Steve *is* clueless about the cards in Legacy.  The restricted cards have far more impact on T1 then you lend them credit for, specifically SoLoMox+Crypt.  Of course, things like Will, Recall, and Oath are pretty good too.  I'm not implying that Steve isn't a good player, or that he doesn't know T1 well, but despite sharing 90% of the cardpool with T1, Legacy is not T1-lite, now more than ever.  The formats are ridiculously different.  Legacy is more akin to Extended than it is to T1, speaking strictly of the viable genres of decks.  Wizards did a very effective job of neutering combo in the format.  The cards played in Legacy *aren't* played in Vintage.  The cards that are heavily played in Vintage are put in decks with the format in mind.  When I still played T1, years ago, I usually played Sligh.  Not that I didn't have the cards to play anything else, but I liked Sligh and it performed well for me.  Go ahead, talk all the shit you want.  In any case, a couple times, I played Sligh against T2 aggro.  It got raped like a pencil-necked accountant in county.  The deck wasn't designed to beat T2 aggro, it was designed to beat Keeper.  I was playing with a pool of around 6000 cards and losing to a deck created out of a pool of 600.  Doesn't mean I was playing a bad deck(make all the jokes you want), but it wasn't designed with T2 in mind.

There are of course some cards shared between T1 and 1.5, Duals, FoW, FoF, etc.  Thing is, a lot of cards that are good in T1 are good because of the support base T1 has, namely, as I said, decent artifact acceleration.  Mana Drain doesn't hurt either.  You can say all you want that we've got plenty of artifact acceleration, but that doesn't make it true.  With only a few notable exceptions, everyone in the format tried to "break" all the artifact acceleration when the banned list came out back in September.  They all failed miserably, because the artifact acceleration is too weak.  There are numerous cards in T1, none of which make combo viable by themselves, but which all contribute to it's playability.  Ancestral Recall alone isn't something you're going to see enough to make your combo deck by itself, but it helps.  Yawg Win, DT, VT, Lotus, these things all add up.

I don't know how long you've been playing the format, but I'll assume for the sake of argument that you were playing before Mirrodin was released.  Stax was a contender in the field, along with TnT.  Workshop aggro, which we called Tubbies back then, had stopped being viable maybe a year or two before this point, pushed out by TnT.  Stax was not, however, a dominating deck.  In fact, brown decks in general were not in any way shape or form dominating.  You can't point the finger at a single card that came out of Mirrodin block and say "this is the card that pushed brown over the top".  It wasn't Crucible, it wasn't Mindslaver, it wasn't Trinisphere(despite popular belief) or Pentavus or the artifact lands, it was a combination of all these extra cards that finally pushed Stax into the postion of the deck to beat, and made Fish viable again for the first time since 1998.  Of course, things like Pentavus or the ultra-techy Memnarch don't even see play any more, and I'm sure someone has even written an article on why they were terrible cards, but they were slanted towards a particular metagame, and they excelled in that environment.

Shortly after that is when I finally got out of T1 for good, and while I do turn an eye to the format from time to time, just to see where it is, all I see from people is the same "I know everything, and you're wrong" attitude that made us as a community look so foolish back when Pat Chapin labeled Gro the best deck in the format.  Wrapping up, if you want to talk shit about something you know nothing about, go ahead, seems like it's an honored past time in the US, but don't be surprised when you look as foolish as we did when GaT came out of nowhere to lead the format up until the restriction of Gush, or as foolish as Zvi when he claimed he was going to break T1.

[Matt]

all I see from people is the same "I know everything, and you're wrong" attitude that made us as a community look so foolish back when Pat Chapin labeled Gro the best deck in the format ... don't be surprised when you look as foolish as we did when GaT came out of nowhere to lead the format up until the restriction of Gush

What's funny is that you don't see yourself in this. In this analogy, Steven is Chapin and you and the naysayers are Oscar Tan. In this topic I asked, "Do you think any "pros" will bring new archetypes into the top tiers?" I didn't even ask if people thought the format would be broken, only whether it's possible that the format's primary constituency has missed one or more strong, viable archetypes. And the response? "No way."

[Bastian]

I said this at The Source and I'm saying it here as well.

With all the time we've got ahead until the GP's I'm expecting for players to bring forth new, solid decks. There's more than enough time to get to know the format, deckbuild and playtest. Does this mean that the format will get broken? Not likely unless something comes out of the banned list or something really good comes when Ravnica gets printed.

But players do have time and I bet that when the GP starts that some of us are going to go "awww.. how come I didn't think of that" because I'm pretty sure that new players might make new good decks. Broken? Hmmm, unlikely...

Now, I'm not saying ZVI is a stellar player, but considering the time between his article and the tournament I say that he could have more success than he had if:

1) he had the motivation to play. I'd say that a GP is a pretty strong reason for many pro players to come out and start playtesting Legacy and that ZVI didn't have anything really going on for him when he played.

2) if he had the time. Probably this is just as important as #1. We're what... four, five months ahead of the first GP? If by then someone doesn't come up with new viable archetypes then this format isn't as good as it looks... but I'm not counting on that happening.

[SpikeyMikey]

all I see from people is the same "I know everything, and you're wrong" attitude that made us as a community look so foolish back when Pat Chapin labeled Gro the best deck in the format ... don't be surprised when you look as foolish as we did when GaT came out of nowhere to lead the format up until the restriction of Gush

What's funny is that you don't see yourself in this. In this analogy, Steven is Chapin and you and the naysayers are Oscar Tan. In this topic I asked, "Do you think any "pros" will bring new archetypes into the top tiers?" I didn't even ask if people thought the format would be broken, only whether it's possible that the format's primary constituency has missed one or more strong, viable archetypes. And the response? "No way."

The 1.5 community has always been far less arrogant than the T1 community.  Or perhaps I should just say that people at the Source are far less arrogant than people at TMD.  I've made no secret of the fact that I think 1.5 is not optimized, and that developmental progress has been far slower than I think it should be, but I'm starting to get really sick of having arrogant attitudes thrown my way.  I don't know who's telling you that there aren't any more viable decks out there, obviously, they don't know much about magical cards.  Even in T2, with 1/10th the pool of cards and god knows how many more players, things change a lot over the course of a set, because nobody ever gets it exactly right the first time.  I've tried to ignore the random shit talking from people that haven't done anything with the format, but I think I've had enough.  So here it is, put up or shut up time.  $50 says Steve doesn't make T8 at GenCon or GP Philly.  Another $50 says there will be no Belcher in either T8.  Anyone here got the brass to take either of those bets?

[waSP]

The 1.5 community has always been far less arrogant than the T1 community.

It's hard to be arrogant when all but a few are awful.  Blah blah blah, they know what they're doing.  It does not excuse how weak each metagame is.  I read the Source boards and occasionally post.  You guys just don't have the highly skilled players TMD had.  That's why you don't come up with that much new stuff.  That's why you aren't arrogant.  You have to know you're good to be arrogant.  Chapin's deck constituted a change in some of the magic paradigms.  That's not happening with 1.5.  The only variable in that format is skill.

I watch the forums and there is innovation coming from a handful of people.  And they aren't doing terribly well at it.  The aggro decks should be faster, the control decks more refined, and there should be a combo deck besides solidarity.

I won't take your bet because you would NEVER go through with it.  You have nothing to lose by saying you'll make the bet.  Besides, there are enough random factors in magic that it's not a good bet to make.  Why don't you pick your horse?  Isn't there anyone you'd be on making the top 8?  There's lots of people on the Source who know so much, right?

[Matt]

Chapin's deck constituted a change in some of the magic paradigms.  That's not happening with 1.5.  The only variable in that format is skill.

Could you expand more on that? What other variables might there be, for instance?

[SpikeyMikey]

There was no paradigm shift, it was simply a re-evaluation and refinement of popular theory.  It's not like they suddenly changed the rules of the game and it made Gro good.  Gro was good, but people were so caught up in themselves that they dismissed it, assuming that as the all knowning gods, wait, scuze me, I meant "paragons" of Vintage, they couldn't possibly be wrong in their theories.  Although that's not entirely fair.  To give them credit, most of these players (and I was one on the bandwagon, although I was never a paragon of Vintage) had a lot of play time, a lot of experience building decks in the format, and a lot of wins and successful decks to back up their theory.  We've all been wrong from time to time, some of us more than others.

It does not excuse people, however, from looking at an imperfect situation, one that they have absolutely no experience in, and then claiming that "they'd have done better".  Pat Chapin didn't say "the only thing keeping Gro from dominating the format is Masknaught" without ever having played the format.  He studied it, played it, and then made that statement based on his experiences.  That's a far cry from "you suck, my elderly grandmother could build a better deck with 2 hours to study the format than you monkeys have in the last 7 months."  That's just arrogant bullshit.  I have absolutely no problems with new people coming into the format.  Christ, I think it's the best thing that's happened in Magic since they released Invasion block!  I welcome some new innovation, and hopefully, a global metagame.  I do not, however, have any patience for the kind of arrogance that killed BD.  When you've done something with the format, or when you've provided sound reasoning behind your propaganda, then, and only then, I'll listen.  Until then, you're just another Rakso in my mind.

I won't take your bet because you would NEVER go through with it.  You have nothing to lose by saying you'll make the bet.  Besides, there are enough random factors in magic that it's not a good bet to make.  Why don't you pick your horse?  Isn't there anyone you'd be on making the top 8?  There's lots of people on the Source who know so much, right?

That's a neat way to sidestep the issue.  "I'm honest, and I'd do it, except I think you're dishonest, and blah blah blah".  Well, guess you won't find out then, will you?  As far as me 'picking my horse', I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims about who I think is going to break the format in half.  You seem to forget, in your fervor, that not I, nor anybody I know, has all the answers.  I'm simply telling you that you, and anyone you know don't have all the answers either.

Edit:

Back to the topic at hand, I'm still curious as to people's opinions on how the outcome of GenCon will affect GP Philly.  Nobody has answered yet, but I'm curious to see people's opinions.  Do you think GenCon will be written off because it's not a "serious" event, or do you think that it will influence the metagame at Philly?  Do you think how seriously people take it depends on who places and what they're playing?

[Dozer]

Back to the topic at hand, I'm still curious as to people's opinions on how the outcome of GenCon will affect GP Philly.  Nobody has answered yet, but I'm curious to see people's opinions.  Do you think GenCon will be written off because it's not a "serious" event, or do you think that it will influence the metagame at Philly?  Do you think how seriously people take it depends on who places and what they're playing?

As far as I see it, GenCon is the only big Legacy event before GP Philadelphia, right? That should make for a lot of attention if only for people who are scrambling for results on which to build on. You need a basis to actually have a stab at the metagame unless you have a team that can actually put in the time to figure out all major decks by themselves. If anyone does that, I am pretty sure that they will get appropriate results at the GP.

No preparation should ignore the tournament, though. Much like Origins and GenCon had a beacon-like impact on Vintage before Waterbury and SCG events came around, this GenCon will be watched closely. But whoever prepares seriously for GP Philly will probably not break out the tech at GenCon already unless they have the next evolutionary step of the deck already explored. In other words, if someone is already ahead of the metagame he might shape, new tech will happen. Other than that, tech will come from the solitary fighters that do not prepare for the GP with secrecy.

For me and the other Europeans, the December-GP in Lille is the one I can possibly attend. I will be watching GenCon for hidden gems in the rough, and GP Philly for breakout tech. That's how I expect it to turn out. Any attempts to "break the format" will happen at the GP, not at GenCon. I am sure that someone will break the format at the GP, I just cannot tell who it might be. I believe Smmenen can put his money where his mouth is, but I also believe that there are a lot of other people capable of that feat. The European GP has the advantage here. (That being said, I'll probably play Show and Tell anyway, because it is an incredibly funny deck to play.)

Dozer