It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[Whatever Works]

That just isn't magic anymore.. If you proxy like 40 cards, go and play some other game, It just isn't any fun anymore.

I cant put it better.

[Smmenen]

That just isn't magic anymore.. If you proxy like 40 cards, go and play some other game, It just isn't any fun anymore.

I cant put it better.

Why?

When I got back into Vintage in 2000, I printed up Mana Drain, Moat, power, etc using Magic Encyclopedia and copying the images into Word and then rubber cementing the image over land.  It took me basically two years to get full power until about 2002 and I started out with like 40 proxies in my keeper deck and slowly got the real cards.

I tried to play in some Vintage side events in like 2001 but I got my ass kicked becuase I couldn't play a deck I wanted.  I had to play like a really, really bad unpowered Trix deck using Rituals, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, and like the two moxen I owned at the time instead of playing Keeper, which is what I would have played. 

It took me time to get the cards I needed and that was back when everything was cheap.  I was very hesitant about paying more than $125 per Mox.  So I eventually found a mox for $125 each.  The final card I got was my Lotus for $200 (now I have a beta one).

Back in 2000-2 I wasn't at all embarressed about having mostly Proxies since all I wanted to do was enjoy Vintage.  I built up Suicide Black IRL and other decks for other people to play with me and I even built a guantlet.

Let me put it this way:
The best way to get people to want to buy into Vintage is from having a blast playing it at tournament.  Probably the best thing for Vintage is that different tournaments have different proxy levels.  We can all accept that Gencon will ALWAYS be NO proxies.  That's fine.  That keeps the people happy who are concerned about the price of their proxies.  But events like SCG should really be about growing Vintage.  I think that the whole 5 proxies plus a proxy tax is fine - but I think it goes back to what Puck said:

I think Dante said it best:

Milton's post is an excellent post - it highlights something I think was underlying what Steve was getting at with his original post.

Steve said:

People don't play this format in tournament with suboptimal decks   If they can't play the optimal decks, they tend not to come.  And they are right.

The big question that I think Steve M was asking us, as players, to think about and then voice an opinion on is not really "how many proxies should we use", but rather - "What is the ideal end state of Vintage you want in terms of growth".  Once you answer that question, then "how many proxies" is just a result of "how much do we want vintage to grow?".

Bill was talking quantitative growth - but I think it is important to think about quality as well as quantity.

Let's face it - any limit on proxies is going to distort an otherwise "ideal" metagame.  If Fish were more expensive than Stax, how many people would play Fish?  Any number of proxies creates a distortion of some sort.  I've seen it all the time.  The metagame + the proxy limit creates a wierd vergence.  Jan Waterbury of 2004 features an aggro-control finals becuase aggro control was the proxy deck that could beat the control decks and the aggro decks. 

Proxies are going to distort the metagame from an  ideal state in some way, so the question is - how much distortion are we willing to tolerate and still want to enjoy the game as much as possible.  I think 10 proxies is too low.  I'm not sure what to propose instead.  12 sounds fine in theory, but that doesn't really get more people in the format - it just lets people play more optimal decks that are already here. 

One thing I don't like about most people who permit proxies is that they don't let you use picture proxies. 

What are the reasons for not doing so?:

* different thickness to card
* copyright/trademark infringement?
* difficult to monitor since basic lands are easy to recognize

Reasons why those don't hold up:
* thickness isn't really that big of a problem as long as someone isn't gluing the picture on the card
* thickness because of proxy pictures isn't any bigger of a problem than foil thickness/feel
* I don't think there are any legal problems with xeroxing mana drain or printing it and then slipping the paper over the land face in a sleeve
* proxies aren't that hard to monitor.  They could request that everyone put like a red dot in the corner on the picture card proxies or something like flashback so it would be easy to see when flipping through it.  This isn't that big of a deal.

What are the reasons for permitting picture proxies:
* doesn't annoy opponents who have to look at a plains as a mox pearl
* makes the player using the proxy feel more like they are playing vintage
* has real text on it instead of pen or marker
* people are used to seeing the actual card

I think TOs should permit picture proxies - or even encourage them over basic lands. 

[Dante]

I think Dante said it best:

Milton's post is an excellent post - it highlights something I think was underlying what Steve was getting at with his original post.

Steve said:

People don't play this format in tournament with suboptimal decks   If they can't play the optimal decks, they tend not to come.  And they are right.

The big question that I think Steve M was asking us, as players, to think about and then voice an opinion on is not really "how many proxies should we use", but rather - "What is the ideal end state of Vintage you want in terms of growth".  Once you answer that question, then "how many proxies" is just a result of "how much do we want vintage to grow?".

Bill was talking quantitative growth - but I think it is important to think about quality as well as quantity.

I was talking about both types of growth - number of players, but also increase in "skill" and deck building/netdecking sophistication.

I think TOs should permit picture proxies - or even encourage them over basic lands

I'm just recently getting back into SWCCG - not the stupid Wotc one, but the great original Decipher game.  "But wait", you say, "that game went out of print in 2001!"  Yes it did.  It was continued on by a Player's Committee, with "official" support from Decipher.  The way they continued on was by introducing Virtual Sets - edits of existing cards with each set between 10 and 30 cards.  In the older sets, there were a huge amount of crap cards that would NEVER see play, not even casual, so they edit them to be useful.  It works by printing out the bottom of the card (where all relevant game text/info is).  It works great.

[mr_pollock]

Cliff notes: I vote for 15 proxies.

I just wanted to post a hypothetical situation for someone, say a 17 year old player that typically played Casual and T2 and was interested in getting into Type 1 (I'm not the example, I'm 20  :shock:). Bill doesn't have a job but his mom let's him borrow the car to go to Friday Night Magic and whatever and she gives him a small allowance too.

Bill wants to play Gifted GAT for whatever reason.

3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

3 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
3 Sleight of Hand
2 Cunning Wish
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gush
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond

Sideboard:

2 Energy Flux
2 Arcane Lab
2 Ground Seal
2 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Snuff Out
1 Naturalize
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Berserk

And let's say he'll be playing that a T1 Tournament with a 10 Proxy limit...

So, he'll proxy the Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Mox Emerald, Ancestrall Recall, Time Walk, and the 4 Mana Drains. That's 10 proxies. (Note: The total cost of these cards was $3670 using www.findmagiccards.com and the prices were typically for Good, Fine, or VF rated card conditions.)

Being a T2 player in the past, Bill has the 3 Flooded Strands, 1 Polluted Delta, 3 Psychatogs, 4 Quirion Dryads, 2 Cunning Wish, 2 Gifts Ungiven, Yawgmoth's Will, and Fact or Fiction.

That leaves him with $195 in Dual Lands alone. He's put back another $36 for the Mana Crypt and another $63 for the lone Berserk in the sideboard. I don't see the rationale in saying "You have to spend $thousands for a competitive deck" or even "You have to spend over $500 for a competitive deck" Bill would end up having to pay roughly $300 for the Dual Lands, Mana Crypt and Berserk.

That's a hell of a lot of money for someone that young to be spending.

I'm 20 years old and I have a steady job and I wouldn't spend that much at one time for the cards. 15 Proxies instead of 10 seems like the best number because not everyone has dual lands, or a Berserk, or a Mana Crypt, or whatever.

I'm not sure there was much of a point to this post up until this point, but I say 15 proxies.

The following quote is great, I think.

I don't think there are any players who wouldn't want to own power, but it is seriously not feasible to everyone.  I don't think that the inability to slap down 4K for some cards should be a limitation to play a game that you enjoy.

I wouldnt mind more then 10 proxys (even though I own full power and havent proxied forever), but I am EXTREMELY fed up with HORRIBLE proxies... If people are going to right on the back of the common to replicate a card I payed alot of money for (before more proxies were allowed), they should at least be respectful ennough to do a good job of making good proxies... I have seen Mox Pearl scribbled on islands in ball point pen that isnt clear... I have seen bad proxies that make cards thicker... Its absolutetly redicules...

Personally I liked it was 5 proxies... but I am fine with 10.... Though If a person cant build an effective deck with 10 proxies they are pitiful. with 10 proxies you can build several of the budget decks, and If you cant shell $200 to the format when my deck is worth more then $4,000 then I have little to no sympathy for the person who cant spend $70 got set of FoW's etc.

I agree that bad proxies are annoying.

But I do not agree with

If a person cant build an effective deck with 10 proxies they are pitiful.

I don't see how not being able to afford an expensive card as part of a hobby makes one pitiful. I think it would be pitiful if someone were not able to pay their rent because they spent all their paycheck on a Black Lotus.

Let's face it folks, Vintage is about money, and for the format to stay that way, which I want it to oddly enough, there needs to be no more than 10 proxy tournaments.

Why? Why does Vintage have to be about money? WotC is not (directly) making money on the T1 singles being sold. Shouldn't it be about fun and competition and whatever else?

[Dozer]

Let's face it - any limit on proxies is going to distort an otherwise "ideal" metagame. [...]

Proxies are going to distort the metagame from an ideal state in some way, so the question is - how much distortion are we willing to tolerate and still want to enjoy the game as much as possible.

Ahhh... now we get to the heart of the matter. See, Steve, you are a gamer at heart. What you want is a level playing field where theories such as metagaming and the like actually work. The game applies to you intellectually, and you want to match your wit with others. (Or so I think reading the above quotes.)  But when people will have to make do with what they have, the metagame can never be ideal in your sense. What you are implying is that in theory, you'd advocate unlimited proxies, but the reason why that's not done is it might hurt the tournament organiators income from card sales and so hurt the tournament scene in the long run.

I heartily endorse another point of view.

You cannot detach the intellectual, playing portion of Magic from the fact that it is and remains a collectable card game. Collecting, opening, trading and buying cards is a huge part of Magic's success. The limited access to cards also plays a huge part in deckbuilding: If you don't have certain cards, you'll have to find substitutes or find another way around it by changing your strategy or even your deck. That is a challenge, too, and one that is very much part of deckbuilding. Some cards are extremely hard to find or almost un-affordable (for many). Proxies are the solution to that particular problem.

But Proxies are not the tool to shape an ideal metagame. Any environment will always be shaped by the cards that are in it. For example, I don't have Workshops and most of the relevant support cards. I will never be able to play Workshop decks (there are no proxy tournaments around here). And even if there were, I still wouldn't have easy-to-find cards like Juggernaut and Tangle Wire. And I wouldn't proxy them even if I could. There is a certain pride in owning cards, and the game we love is made out of these cards. I understand proxying the last card of a playset or an obscure Uncommon that no-one has. But if I can buy or trade for the card, I will not proxy it. You might call that stupid, but I prefer it that way. I even dislike my proxied test decks.

I don't believe in metagame distortion through proxies, btw. A metagame (or rather, an environment) always creates itself out of the players that are present and the decks they play. If they have different cards available, the environment will be different. And that's fine. There is no preset "ideal" environment. If everybody had all the cards in sets of four, there still wouldn't be an ideal environment. We are human: we like certain decks, cards and strategies more than others. Unless all players are "ideal", the environment can never be. It is not "there's the metagame, now come as close to it as possible", but "the metagame at tournament X was interesting". Metagame is not a top-down design.

Let me illustrate this further by telling you how I got into Vintage: I played Suicide Black, unpowered. For a couple of years. Sometimes I mixed in a bit of R/G Beats, or some obscure combo deck. I even tried an unpowered U/W control deck. And I still had a blast at tournaments! Meanwhile, I started to accumulate Duals and built my first Keeper, with Counterspells instead of Mana Drains. I did not proy more than the two or three cards I knew I was getting in the mail or in the next two weeks from a friend. I played with Collector's Edition power and shelled out some money for my Drains. Then, in 2002/2003, I had the money to buy the real stuff, and I did. Only then did I start to play decks with real power in tournaments. (Ok, I admit that I have tried to play CE power in a tournament. Once.)

I still pay lots of money for cards. Even if I can proxy: When I was in Melbourne a couple of months ago, I only had one Masticore for my U/B but needed two. I could have proxied... it would have been my only proxy, even. But instead, I bought the card from the store. Because I wanted to own the card I played with. For me, at least, Magic is about the cards as much as it is about the playing. That's why I oppose unlimited proxies (and it also explains why I endorse proxying only cards above a certain accessibility level).

Dozer

[lOlive]

The most funny thing in t1 tournaments is the prize: a power card.
And guess what? The winner is usually *full* powered already.

It is very frustrating for unpowered decks.
Sure, proxy can help.

May be, it's time to reward the strategy of unpowered in t1.
What about rewarding unpowered decks with power stuff?

This may open a new way of thinking t1.

Just my humble 2 cents.

[Revvik]

I still pay lots of money for cards. Even if I can proxy: When I was in Melbourne a couple of months ago, I only had one Masticore for my U/B but needed two. I could have proxied... it would have been my only proxy, even. But instead, I bought the card from the store.

Heh at the last tournament I attended I noticed a friend of mine playing with a proxied Darksteel Colossus (this guy has been fully powered for about three years now).  I ended up buying the damn thing for him from the store because I didn't want to see that coming from him.

Proxy as many as you like, just so long as the TOs get their money and I get opponents.  I'm not the one who needs to be using the proxy system anyways.

[Khahan]

The most funny thing in t1 tournaments is the prize: a power card.
And guess what? The winner is usually *full* powered already.

You'd be surprised at the winners of big tournaments usually do and don't have. I'm not saying fully powered people never win them.
There seem to be 2 types of tournaments right now: Large scale 100 or 150+ tournaments with a full set of P9 to the top 8.  Guess what. The top 8 is riddled with proxies and people who do not have full power.

Or 30-40 player tournaments at local stores with 1 (maybe sometimes 2) power cards (or a power and a mana drain or library) for 1st and 2nd.    And guess what, most local meta scene are not fully powered. My area has 4 players that I know of that are fully powered (1 of them has 4 of every card from alpha on up, go figure). And  3 of them are retired.

The fourth is actually missing the lotus for full power. But he only just got his last of the 'cheap' 8 a week ago.  He also has no mana drains, no bazaars, no library and only 1 workshop (that he pulled from an unopened pack he bought at the store a few months ago).  So he'll still have to proxie and even he still has a buttload of money to drop to get the full vintage array. To be honest I don't think he has that many duals either.

So most of those local tourney winners are not fully powered, either.

Stick with it. Don't be discouraged by the myth that you can't win if you don't own power. You most likely won't win (more than 1 or 2 matches) if you don't use power. But it can be proxied at most places.

[vartemis]

Only 1 person in my gaming group has power, and my local tournament (listowel) doesnt allow it, but it is easy enough to be competitive with only 10 proxies.  Oath and fish are decent decks, and, while they may not necessarily win the tournament, you  can do fairly well with em.  You may only get a beserk, moat or drain, or whatever middle range card they are offering, but place enough in the middle and you get a nice amount of cards to trade up for power.

On a side note, photo album top right:

http://spaces.msn.com/members/vartemis/PersonalSpace.aspx?_c11_PhotoAlbum_spaHandler=TWljcm9zb2Z0LlNwYWNlcy5XZWIuUGFydHMuUGhvdG9BbGJ1bS5FZGl0TW9kZUNvbnRyb2xsZXI%24&_c11_PhotoAlbum_albumid=cns

I use these to fill out my decks.

I usually print proxies out on low quality paper and tuck em in the sleeve when trying out a deck.  If I like it alot I sometimes print it on the full page sticker stuff and put it on a common.  I have a printer that allows me to print on cardstock, and have found a local store that carries stuff that feels identical to the stuff wizards uses.  They are also likely getting in foiled stuff and i cant wait to get my hands on that.  My power or special cards (home-made textless or my own alternative art cards) I print off on the cardstock cuz its just fun creating your own cards.  Most people dont care about the alternative art or textless cards, and if they do, i usually have real copies of the card with me.

I know the legality of it all is a bitch, but im not selling it, and i dont try to pass the stuff off as real.  Everyone knows its fake, and I dont print on the backs, except for the 8th edition power.  For all intensive purposes the 8th edition ones look like a real card, but they obviously cant be real because they dont exist.  When put in a sleeve the cards are weighted the same as a magic card, so that arguement is lost against non land proxies.  The cards are easily distinguishable as to what they are, and a watermark or some other symbol could be required.

I created these because  I am the king of the worst proxies.  I usually write on binder paper with a pen and tuck it in a sleeve in front of a reversed common cuz im tweaking my decks so often to discover that optimum build.  I dont even write the full text, just enough to get the gist of it.  For example  FOW 3UU,  ins,   alt  rem U card pay 1 life, no spell.    lol. dont worry i own  a playset of forces, but I dont feel like pulling them out of the deck they are in to put in another.

The most ironic thing of all is that wizards own website and photoshop create the best proxies of em all.

If you feel like using em, go ahead, I get a lot of comments on my counterspell.

If mods dont approve of this post, by all means delete it and sorry for the trouble.

j

[Draven]

How are you able to print on the face of a magic card? The face is too glossy and the ink doesn't "stick" to the card. Also, How are you able to bleach out the art or whatever you are covering up? Thanks dude...

[jpmeyer]

Rather than constanty putting forth the "but budget decks can win sometimes!" or "but I bought these first!" arguments that have been run into the ground, I think that it is prudent to consider the following questions:

1) Do I even want to play a budget deck?
2) Is the appeal of the format being able to use power cards?
3) What is it about Type 1 that I want to play this format even though I am playingh a budget deck?
4) If Legacy were better supported, would I choose to play it over Type 1?
5) Do I play Type 1 because of the format itself (cardpool, available decks, etc.) or because of the environment surrounding the format?

[vartemis]

Rather than constanty putting forth the "but budget decks can win sometimes!" or "but I bought these first!" arguments that have been run into the ground, I think that it is prudent to consider the following questions:

1) Do I even want to play a budget deck?
2) Is the appeal of the format being able to use power cards?
3) What is it about Type 1 that I want to play this format even though I am playingh a budget deck?
4) If Legacy were better supported, would I choose to play it over Type 1?
5) Do I play Type 1 because of the format itself (cardpool, available decks, etc.) or because of the environment surrounding the format?

You bring up some good points.

1) In a competitive tournament, I think that most people would say No.  Realistically, it is unlikely that a budget deck can beat a nonbudget deck. Its a nonbudget deck because the cards are better and therefore worth more money.  Now around the kitchen table, nothing is more satisfying than the rare time you trounce a powered deck with your elf stompy lol.

2) I think this is a huge appeal to the format.  Being able to use broken cards is something everyone loves to do.  I think this is why type 2 had a huge boom during the ravager craze.  It was just so sick to be able to kill turn 3 or 4 in a type 2 environment.

3 and 5) part of it is because I have all these older cards that would otherwise be collecting dust if I only played extended or type 2.  Even if power had never been created, I think type 1 would still be popular.  As new people come into the game, be it type 1 or 2, they start to develop a collection.  As time passes the collection mirgrates into a different format, extended, legacy, and/or type 1.  I have cut back on buying newer cards (i had a slip during mirrodin block, i too fell for the ravager craze) because I am sick and tired  of having to replenish my cardpool every year or so.  Sometimes its just more fun to play with older cards.  Two words: Goblin Grenade!

4) Legacy is an interesting hybrid of type 1.  Now that it has come into its own with its person banned list, it will grow and change from what it used to be.  It used to be, for me anyways, a watered down version of type 1.  I never really played it because i had most of the cards on the banned list lol.

Anyone else care to give their 2 cents?

j

[Yare]

How are you able to print on the face of a magic card? The face is too glossy and the ink doesn't "stick" to the card. Also, How are you able to bleach out the art or whatever you are covering up? Thanks dude...

I've always used some sandpaper that's somewhere in the middle in terms of grit.  Takes the face right off.  Print your design on to a sheet of paper, tape the card on top of that same spot, then print the card for real with whatever you want on it.  Done.

That said, some people might gripe because the card will be slightly thinner due to the sandpapering.  Honestly though,  I don't think this is a big deal.

[vartemis]

I do not want this to turn into a how to print proxies thread.  If we want to do that, someone start one.  This thread is for the problem of proxies.  I probably should have started a new thread for it.  I only posted my proxies to show how I deal with the problem of proxies.

And to answer any questions, I dont print on existing cards, i can't get that to work.  I print on blank white cardstock the same thickness as the stuff wizards uses.

nuff said.

j

[Vegeta2711]

I think the biggest 'proxy issue' is just why oh why do we have to stare at LANDS with scribbles on them? They not only are a distraction and a pain in the ass (sometimes) to keep track of. We have printer technology good enough to fake power cards that you probably couldn't tell the difference inside a sleeve, but we have to use basic lands? Puhleeeze

The least some people could do is make some high-end or at least DECENT looking proxies to play with.

[Norm4eva]

You talk about the getting-to-know-you aspects of it all, how it's good to care about the families and the players and whatnot.  So you know that our families come first.  Nothing actually stops me from buying those Volcanic Islands I want, it's the idea of feeding my daughter ramen noodles and cornbread for two weeks that keeps me writing "time walk" on my Backslides.
I would think those who have put sufficient funds into the game would appreciate proxy rules even more.  From here on out I don't wanna buy random packs unless I'm drafting; I don't want to buy stupid precons to 'see what Type 2 looks like these days' and I really, really don't want to throw down for four Pithing Needles for the next legal tournament when I could be spending that money on (a) Alaina (b) guitar equipment for the two bands I'm in because that's where my money comes from, or (c) actual fucking dual lands and/or Power 9.  Proxies will serve to protect your old investment by keeping your old cards playable as the format changes and you can spend your money on the cards that won't turn into poop.
Seriously, Keeper's not even around in Keeper form anymore.  Is anybody playing the same deck they were 2 years ago?  And if you're not, didn't you pull the 'important' Vintage cards out of the old one and you're probably playing them now?  You didn't have to buy your power again, you went through your janky commons/uncommons and pulled out the "i can't believe someone broke fucken Lion's Eye Diamond" cards and threw down cash for whatever was a random 2- or 3- of.  And when new tech comes from Type 2, chances are we have to pay the 'new tech in Type 2 so every 11 year old with backne and a 75-card decklist wants one' price.  Some of us proxy what's missing, win the tournament and flesh out the deck, or go back to saving up for Taigas so we can play budget.dec with real cards.

[Chamelet]

I don't believe in metagame distortion through proxies, btw. A metagame (or rather, an environment) always creates itself out of the players that are present and the decks they play. If they have different cards available, the environment will be different. And that's fine. There is no preset "ideal" environment. If everybody had all the cards in sets of four, there still wouldn't be an ideal environment. We are human: we like certain decks, cards and strategies more than others. Unless all players are "ideal", the environment can never be. It is not "there's the metagame, now come as close to it as possible", but "the metagame at tournament X was interesting". Metagame is not a top-down design.
Dozer

I play in a local small monthly tourney. We allow unlimited proxyes and the metagame is not even close to being distorted. We have guys that play mono-blue, Fish, Gifts, etc, etc. We don't even have Workshop around. I dunno, the guys around here just don't like it. I guess people play the decks they like and this is a relevant thing to think about. Proxyes also allow Type 1 players to not be caught in the Standard Fever, meaning they don't have to chase the good rares (like Needle, for example) since they can proxy it. It allows you to have your cards and let Standard players care about new expensive rares. As Steve said, Vintage is the format for the grown player, who probably has to study, has a job or both. We don't have time to chase everything we need and proxying helps us. And no, I don't like the idea of "adapting". If I wan't to play with Old Man of the Sea, why should I play Seasinger? I will get the wrong idea about the card's effect on the deck, about the deck in general and will misunderstand the deck's role. Is that good? Nah...
Proxyes also allow more testing. Since you can go with whatever you like to a tournament, you change your deck various times between tornament. That makes the metagame be varied, ant I think that's good, ain't it?

Oh, and our proxyes are with pictures in them. We print directly in a thicker paper and use colored sleeves, and never had problems with that.

ok, 2 more cents

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sigh.  In the end, this does not come down to numbers.  Most people spend the VAST majority of their magic playing time in one of two places: 1) online OR 2) the kitchen table.  Magic Online will almost certainly never include vintage as we know it.  Sure there's apprentice, mws, etc.  Okay.  But to me, magic is more fun when sitting across the table from a real person.  I can make all the proxies I want sitting at the kitchen table playing with my friends, and personally I enjoy my craptastic proxies.  Sure, it may piss off people with excess money but I assure you I couldn't care less.  What matters to me is:

BEING ABLE TO CONVINCE MY FRIENDS THAT THEY ALSO WANT TO PLAY VINTAGE.

We build a great gauntlet.  These are the decks we practice with.  But if we can't play them at a tournament despite our skill with them...  WHY PLAY AT ALL?  Ten proxies really chafes me because my girlfriend loves playing Oath.  And that takes 12 proxies.  Isn't allowing 12 proxies worth it even if it just gets one more girl at tournaments?

[Tanadan]

4) If Legacy were better supported, would I choose to play it over Type 1?

Absolutely. I play Magic on a semi-regular basis, with occasional stretches where I don't touch my cards for a month or two, and thus I play Vintage because I have no other choice; there's no way I could keep up any rotating format either time- or money-wise.  Legacy is how I envision Magic: a game where with a minimal investment anyone can put together pretty much any deck, and results are based to a great extent on your skill, both in play and in deck building. In chess, I can play any strategy I want. Playing a different opening, say the King's Indian instead of the Benoni, doesn't require anything more than moving the pieces differently. Legacy has a lot of that freedom - a lot more that every other format, anyway.

And why try to open up Type 1? It's the format with the Moxen and the b0rken stuff. I've never seen a proxy discussion go by without a chorus of "I paid lots for my power, you should too!" going up. People just don't like their hard-earned pieces of cardboard being devalued, even if the actual secondary market value doesn't drop.

So is there an audience for a more open (chess-like) format like Legacy?

postscript: Personally, I'm not particularly fond of the broken cards in Type 1 - yeah, Mox Sapphire is cool, but it's also a mistake: what kind of game of chess would you have if you let your opponent take two turns in a row at the start of the game? I can't tell whether people are more attracted to Type 1 for the broken cards or the unchanging card pool, but if the latter, Legacy definitely seems like the answer.

[aTn]

In my opinion, an environment should be determined by the deck construction/choices of players and not the availability of cards. To Dozer, "magic is about the cards as much as it is about the playing." I do not agree, but I respect his opinion. To me, the playing and collecting parts of magic do not intersect. I think for the tournament structure to be healthy, we should definitly separate the collector and player aspects in type 1. The collector aspect of the game can coexist with the tournament structure, but it should not interfere with it. The best solution to do this I can think of is having the "N proxies + X$ each additionnal proxy" rule, so all players are on equal grounds.

[Norm4eva]

Does N proxies + $X per additional reeally make it fair, though?
I see a lot of talk about comparing this game to chess.  When I started playing during Odyssey there was an article I read making this comparison because of the widely-played UG Madness deck.  It referenced openings in its discussion of the 'Rootwalla Gambit', which was described as such: UG player goes first turn Basking Rootwalla.  You play a land and a 1/1 in kind, pass the turn.  UG player drops a land and swings.  So now you have the option of chumping or not, and there are only a handful of plays that can occur.  Do you chump it and risk losing your 1/1 to a 3/3 Rootwalla?  Do you let it hit and watch them drop a Mongrel?  Or do you force them to have the Mongrel by chumping and letting both creatures die?  So on and so forth.
The example was applicable because every-fucking-body was playing UG Madness, even me when I wasn't playing Battle_screech.dec.  Just as in chess, where you both have equivalent equipment going into the game.  Skill and strategem come only with experience of course, but this can be applied to all games so the only subject at hand is the sameness of the board setup.  Everyone has 8 pawns, 2 rooks, 2 knights, 2 bishops, 1 queen and 1 king.  Magic is incredibly separate from this concept - two decks can be referred to as URfish and have different decklists.  Am I maindecking the Jitte?  Do I play Spiketail Hatchling or Flying Men?  What about Vedalken Shackles?  What's my meta going to reward?
If we grant Magic the putative honor of being one of the greats, like poker or chess, we've got to acknowledge the physical limitations of our game and then remove them from the context.  When old cards become unreachable to common folk the game becomes inaccessible and that will always prevent it from being as great as chess.  The viable proxy number will slowly rise - 2 years ago 5 was enough, now people are seriously discussing the merits of 12+.  So whether or not a consensus is established for tomorrow's tourney at Bob's Card Shack, the inevitable conclusion that the players and the game will eventually give way to a higher number of proxies should be expected and prepared for.  So how do WotC, the players and the organizers handle THAT inevitability?  Are we destined to play across scribbled-on lands and shitty commons forever?  Does Wizards remove the 'collectible' from our card game and present a multitude of opportunity for new players to join Type 1?  Would they forsake the collectors to allow the game to transcend and endure time, join the ranks of everything from checkers to poker to go?  Or do WE take it upon ourselves for this transcendence to occur and allow a greater proxy pool with Oracle wordings on hand at all times?  Do we 'officialize' certain well-made mass-produced proxies such that they no longer count towards the proxy limit?  I mean eventually someone has to give or the whole thing just dies, and then the collectors have a relic of a dead game while the players have nowhere to go and nobody's investment is worth shit.

[mr_pollock]

Yeah it is collectable and it is a game. 

I'm not about to do the math on how many power 9 cards exist in the world.  Then how many are sitting in collections or destroyed.

So we are left with proxy events.  Because if WotC doesn't change their mind about reprints we'll have a format that no one can afford unless they bought in early or tonnes of disposable income to spend on Type 1.

Wayne

Easy math

POWER
 4,300  Limited Rare (Alpha+Beta)
18,500  Unlimited Rare
--------------
22,800 Sets of Power

 5,000  International Collector's Set
10,000  Collector's Set
-------------
43,800  Sets of Power including Collectors edition sets

Shops and Bazaars

31,000  Arabian U3
31,000  Antiquities U1
31,000/4 = 7,750 Playsets of Workshops + Bazaars

58,000  Legends U1
58,000/4 = 14500 Playsets of ENGLISH mana drains.  (I'm not sure of the Italian Legends print run and rarities)

As for my feeling on Proxies I've always felt the minumum to be competitive is enough.  Long gone are the days when I think 5 is still enough so I'd settle on 10.  13 would be my limit as you can then use full power 9 plus a set of shops, bazaars or drains.

20 Proxies in that case.

[moxpearl]

How many people would be in support of Wizards producing a “Vintage Onlyâ€? set with a different backing and border, and it could only be used for Vintage tournaments.  It would include one of every restricted card, 4 drains, 4 workshops, 4 bazaars, 4 masks, 40 duals, 20 fetches, 4 forces, 4 oath of druids, 4 welders, 4 meddling mages, 4 standstills, and, of course, a single darksteel colossus.  Heck, they could sell it for the price of a booster box.  Normal black and white border cards would, of course, also be legal for Vintage tournaments.  Wizards would make a bunch of money, no one could complain about access/affordability, Standard, Extended, and Legacy would be kept pure in being a collectible card game, and we have our uber-competitive Vintage format.  Sounds great?

Not for me.  I pretty much agree with everything Dozer wrote.  We’re either going to end up at the extreme end I describe above or we retain the collectible aspect of the game.  Now, I’ll accept certain proxies (pre-Revised) because $50+ cards is tough for accessibility to the format.  However, players should have to buy/trade for cards that are no more expensive than obtaining cards for Standard, Extended, or Legacy, or build a deck around the cards they have.  If you think a “limited proxy poolâ€? is unfair to the people who own power, well, then sell your power and buy the other cards.  It’s better than no proxies at all.  This comes from a person who owns P9, library, and drains, and I couldn’t build a single one of the decks at the last SCG top 8 without borrowing a multitude of cards.

[Norm4eva]

How many people would be in support of Wizards producing a “Vintage Onlyâ€? set with a different backing and border, and it could only be used for Vintage tournaments.  It would include one of every restricted card, 4 drains, 4 workshops, 4 bazaars, 4 masks, 40 duals, 20 fetches, 4 forces, 4 oath of druids, 4 welders, 4 meddling mages, 4 standstills, and, of course, a single darksteel colossus.  Heck, they could sell it for the price of a booster box.  Normal black and white border cards would, of course, also be legal for Vintage tournaments.  Wizards would make a bunch of money, no one could complain about access/affordability, Standard, Extended, and Legacy would be kept pure in being a collectible card game, and we have our uber-competitive Vintage format.  Sounds great?

I can't tell if you said this from the context of your post (it seemed like you were replying to this comment) but this is obviously awful.  A different card backing would make all of these cards illegal as any unsleeved deck would be easy to stack or predict.  Not that anyone should be playing Type 1 unsleeved >:(

[moxpearl]

I can't tell if you said this from the context of your post (it seemed like you were replying to this comment) but this is obviously awful. A different card backing would make all of these cards illegal as any unsleeved deck would be easy to stack or predict. Not that anyone should be playing Type 1 unsleeved >

I wrote that first paragraph tongue-in-cheek to illustrate one end this proxy/ideal-competitive-environment argument could be headed.  Basically, I would never want to separate the collectibility aspect from the Vintage format.

[mikee]

Allright, I think my opinion may be relevant, because I am very much so, one of these people you are all talking about that you are trying to attract towards vintage.

First of all, I am 15 years old, I don't have a job (although I should probably work on getting one), and I have absolutely no viable way to acquire a set of power, mana drains, bazaars etc.

Allright, so here's my little "story". I was introduced to magic by my friend's dad when I was very young, something liek 10 years old, and I loved the game. I bought some boosters (more likely my parents did for me), and we even used to go to local  casual tournaments and all, it was fun.

I slowly lost touch with this friend, and as a result stopped playing magic for a few years. Then, about 2 years ago,(Before 8th rolled in, just when beserk got unrestricted, and GAT was the deck to beat) I decided to see what magic is like again. I started to actively frequent forums, and T1 was what was truly interesting to me. I loved the brokenness, and I just really enjoyed playing. I played on apprentice alot, every night, and I just enjoyed playing the game. At a point I was goign to buy a set of FoWs with some saved up money, but I realised that I just couldn't be competitive with the money I had, and I enjoyed playing online anyways.

Slowly, I suppose since I didn't ever really play in real life, I drifted away from Magic. Now, about 2 years later, some new friends of mine busted out their magic cards, and we played some casual games, it was really fun. So, I decided I shoudl check out what was up with the T1 community these days and how magic was doing. This was basically a week ago.

Since then I have been reading up on all the new deck types, playing some MWS, and it's all just very exciting and enjoyable for me. At this point I am just trying to learn more and more abotu the format, and just PLAY the game, even online, because I enjoy it.

In the future (maybe near future), I intend to find out what the T1 community in my area is like, and if it's strong, maybe enter some tournaments. The only problem is, even with 10 proxies, without a set of FoWs and Duals, or even Fetches, I really just can't be competitive. I feel kindof sadenned, because I for one, would love to play magic, and I just enjoy it alot, but I simply can't justify spending substancial amounts of money (hundreds, even thousands) on it.

I suppose eventually I will just slowly work my way up to some FoWs (if I dont eventually lose interest, due to lack of real play and card limitation, as I did a couple of years ago) and maybe even some duals.

I don't know, I suppose my real point is that magic is a game, and I really enjoy playing it, but I just can't and it bothers me.

[xrizzo]

I don't know, I suppose my real point is that magic is a game, and I really enjoy playing it, but I just can't and it bothers me.

A set of forces is $75.  If you don't have the money for that (which you can always sell for $75) then there aren't a whole lot of competitive activities you can do at this point.  Golf is $1000+ to get a set of clubs and play.  Basketball leagues are many hundreds of dollars, plus $100 shoes, etc.  Baseball requires a glove, shoes, a uniform, a league.  I know chess is like $20 or something, but lets be real about what people play these days...

With magic cards, you are making a 1 time investment in FOWs, but to play time and again all you need to do is show up!  Entry fees are $10-20 depending on what you can win, and online or playing with friends is free.  In most instances, owning and buying mtg cards is a profitable investment in addition to being a 'free' source of hours of enjoyment.

I know that at 15 it all sounds daunting, but saving just $5 a week can really add up.  If you snipe auctions on ebay, make good trades when you have cards, and even win a few, then you can be well on your way.  A lot of the fun is getting the cards -- once you have them all, then you have to do nasty things like get all black bordered ones, then pimp them out with foils, then get asian foils.  Trust me, just getting the cards is a very fun time.  With 10+ proxy tournaments, you are spared from spending $1000 on a deck (unless you play SCUBA Mask) and you have a reasonable chance at winning power or other valueable cards.  (try fish for example)

Morale of the story: not every 15yr old without a job can play competitively in sanctioned tournaments.  If you are serious about the game (ie don't lose interest AGAIN) then you will eventually acquire everything you need.  There is a guy on MOTL I trade with often, he is 15/16 and has lots of beta power, workshops, bazaars, etc because he works non-stop to make deals happen.  He is very good at it, and because of it, he is able to get cards on a limited budget.  If your time is less valuable than money, then you should consider going this route as well...

[Smmenen]

Alll I can think of is Max Joseph and other infant terribles! that we are losing because of this.  This kid could put in some energy and make some insane decks but he can't becuase he can't play the format.  Ugh.  10 Proxies is clearly not enough.

[Vegeta2711]

The only problem is, even with 10 proxies, without a set of FoWs and Duals, or even Fetches, I really just can't be competitive.

If your not even willing to put out for Force of Will, let alone Fetchlands, then you wouldn't be able to play ANY format on that kind of budget. I sunk 120 into cards that were only going to be used in 2 tourneys TOTAL and still borrowed half of my deck from friends. And this was for a Type 2 tourney!

I understand not everyone has money, but seriously, if you aren't even able to make the smallest of investments (Ones which will more than likely be a 1-time shot, compared to other formats) then don't bitch. I wouldn't mind being able to play local T1 either, but I don't go fucking crying about it. I'm not willing to put the cash investment in and that's it.

EDIT: Tell you what. You want to play? Build one of the R/G hate decks or Fish decks available. That would cost you maybe... 200 bucks? tops? I know FCG would only cost like 100-150 depending on where you shop. You could even proxy the damn duals.

Alll I can think of is Max Joseph and other infant terribles! that we are losing because of this. This kid could put in some energy and make some insane decks but he can't becuase he can't play the format. Ugh. 10 Proxies is clearly not enough.

Did MWS and Apprentice disappear while I was writing this or what?

[mikee]

Haha, I am not crying about it first of all. I never said I should be able to play or I feel cheated as a human being because I can't play. All I am saying is that I enjoy playing magic and that it would be nice if it were cheaper. I play poker as well, and that's free, (other than buy ins, but you also win money, so it's all good.) But you are absolutely correct in saying that magic isn't that expensive compared to other activities. The only difference is, I feel more committed to other activities, and they seem more substantial to me.

For example, I ski a lot. It is very expensive. It is something I absolutely love and will never give up. Skiing however, dominates my life, I ski upwards of 4 times a week, and thus I feel justified in spending 350 dollars on a pair of skis each year. I suppose it's just that magic right now to me doesn't seem nearly as substantial and the money doesn't seem as justified, seeing as I would be playing in only a handful of tournaments all year.

I'm sure magic would in time, turn into something that really means a lot to me, and the price I put into it to begin with would all be worth it, but it's just that at this point in time, the investment seems very severe and steep.

In skiing, you can rent some skis and try it out for a day. I think proxies are similar to this in magic. You can try it out, see how you like it, and then once you really enjoy it, you can invest the money to getting the real cards.

However, there is also the matter of why buy the real cards if you can proxy them, and I certainly agree that it would be annoying to play against or with a 40 proxy deck. So really, I don't even know where I stand. I wasn't really trying to say that I feel there is a need for more proxies, I was more just revealing my situation and thoughts, just to give all the participants of this debate another perspective, not necessarily another opinion.

I guess I will just save up slowly and buy those FoWs and Fetches. What can I do.