TheManaDrain.com
October 05, 2025, 03:15:22 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Power 20  (Read 4786 times)
asmoranomardicodais
Basic User
**
Posts: 318


View Profile
« on: July 17, 2005, 12:41:07 am »

Okay, I was reading the timetwister thread, and I started wondering what actually are the most powerful cards in magic, in order. I really don't know, so for this thread, I want people to discuss and list the top twenty most powerful cards (excluding ante). I will keep an updated list at the eginning of this thread. Anyway, I know mine is horribly wrong, but here is what I would guess as the twenty most powerful cards are, in order:

1. Yawgmoth's Will
2. Ancestral Recall
3. Tolarian Academy
4. Force of Will
5. Tinker
6. Mishra's Workshop
7. Black Lotus
8. Mox Sapphire
9. Mox Jet
10. Necropotence
11. Yawgmoth's Bargain
12. Time Walk
13. Mox Pearl
14. Mox Ruby
15. Mox Emerald 
16. Fact or Fiction
17. Time Spiral
18. Time Walk
19. Timetwister
20. Wheel of Fortune

There's my list. How horribly wrong is it?
Logged
Clown of Tresserhorn
Dip Dub Deuces
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 610


Needs more Cowbell


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 01:04:54 am »

Drain >> force. Force is arguabley better, but drain is broken. Why do you think the mana curve in type 1 is like 0.1? Other cards that deserve consideration:


Gifts
Gush/Fastbond
Sol ring and mana crypt are better than mox pearl
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire

I'm sure there are others, but those cards certainly are broken.
Logged

"Fluctuations"
Asian man: "Fluck you white guys too!"

The Colorado Crew: "Don't touch me, I have a boner."

Team Meandeck
Komatteru
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 783

Joseiteki


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2005, 01:22:37 am »

Mana Drain, JD's Desire (some bimbo made a mistake and printed "Mind's" instead of "JD's"), Memory Jar and Mana Crypt are missing.

Mana Drain doesn't really need much explanation.  All the people who think its fair are just lying to themselves.  In a contest of power between Mishra's Workshop, Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, and Bazaar of Baghdad, Mana Drain takes first place easily, and Dark Ritual comes in last.  Despite this, people are always quick to start "OMG! Restrict Dark Ritual!! IT IS TEH BROKEN!!" while holding onto their Mana Drains as sacred cows of the format.  But, enough of that.

JD's Desire was the only card ever restricted before it actually became legal.  That should tell you something.  Since the printing of Yawgmoth's Bargain, there really hasn't been another card that comes close to the power level set by the unholy trio of Urza's block: Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Bargain.

Memory Jar is the strongest Draw7.  The fact that you can play/Tinker (i.e., pay 3 or pay 5, which will often be Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, or Mana Vault mana)  it out and untap with it in play makes it so much better than Wheel or Twister.  Not only do you have full access to all your resources when you get your new 7 cards, they go away at the end of the turn, meaning if something goes wrong and you get a terrible hand, your opponent doesn't get to rip you apart with his new cards.  Wheel is the second strongest Draw7 and one that I often rely on (when Tinker is not feasible, like when I have only Black Lotus and/or Lotus Petal as my artifacts in play).  Twister is my least favorite by far, and only good when things have gone completely sour and I need to put my graveyard back into my library.  This doesn't happen very much with Long, as I prefer to keep a  stocked graveyard, and Twister directly goes against that.  Putting my opponent's depleated answers back in his deck is also not my idea for a great Draw7.  At least Wheel picks them off the top (and keeps my graveyard in tact).

Mana Crypt is likely stronger than Mox Pearl, and in most decks, Mox Emerald.  Sometimes it randomly casts Xantid Swarm or Crop Rotation for me, but I'm generally a lot happier to see Mana Crypt or even Mana Vault than Emerald or Pearl.  I suspect most decks feel the same way about Mana Crypt.  The game has evolved into a state where the game ends before the damage from Mana Crypt even matters.

Balance probably has the most powerful effect ever printed, as it needs absolutely nothing else to be good, esp. since it costs 2 mana.  In fact, the less you have when you cast Balance, the better it is.  Balance is not merely undercosted, like all of the other members of the restricted list from Alpha; rather, it provides an effect that no card should ever have, one that is completely impossible to assign a mana cost to.  This is in stark contrast to Yawgmoth's Will, for instance, which requires some juice in the graveyard.  Using Will for a land, Ancestral Recall, and like Duress is never bad, but that doesn't take nearly as full advantage of the card as we all know its capable.  If Will cost 5, for instance, it would be more a little more difficult to abuse (aside from getting a ton of Mana Drain mana).  The fact that its free from Black Lotus is part of what makes it completely outrageous.

I don't think that Force of Will is necessarily one of the most powerful cards in Vintage.  It is the most necessary because it balances the format, but Duress also does that (albiet in not quite the same way, and Duress's strength in non-combo decks in the current meta has been fading pretty quickly).

Fact or Fiction is strong, but there are stronger cards, like the ones I listed above.  Time Walk can also probably come off the list as well.  It's good, but given the fact that most decks can run just fine without it (like, if you can only proxy 10 cards, Walk is the first thing that goes) is reason enough for it not to be Top 20 material.  Time Spiral is not nearly as powerful as even Wheel of Fortune, as it costs 6 to cast, meaning you either need to have three lands in play (and commit those lands to the Spiral) or Tolarian Academy and tons of artifacts.  I'd say that Time Spiral is just a little better than Diminishing Returns, since the extra cost of 2 is returned by the untapping of the lands, and removing 10 cards off the top can sometimes be painful.

My top 5 is the following:
1) Yawgmoth's Will
2) Yawgmoth's Bargain
3) Necropotence
4) JD's Desire
5) Tinker

Desire is objectively the most overpowered of all of those outside of Yawgmoth's Will, but the fact that it will randomly just be terrible for you every now and then and needs many spells played before it bumps it down a few notches.  When you have lots of mana on the board and not many cards, topdecking Desire isn't nearly as cool as topdecking Bargain or Necro.  If you resolve any of those cards and don't win, something has gone seriously wrong.  The first three are the greatest topdecks you can have in the game (assuming sufficient mana), and Tinker is up there as well (although in the context of Bargain and Necro being in your deck, topdecking Wheel of Fortune is often as good as Tinker).  Cards like Ancestral are merely horribly undercosted, but provide an effect that is not unbalancing in and of itself.

So, in conclusion, I'd remove:
Force of Will
Mox Pearl
Time Walk
Timetwister
Time Spiral

and add
Mana Drain
Memory Jar
Balance
JD's Desire
Mana Crypt

I'm not really sure about the order.  Black Lotus should be higher than Academy, Recall, and pretty much everything other than the 5 I mentioned.  It is probably the single best card in Magic, as nearly everytime I've seen someone play it on the first turn, that person wins.  In addition, no matter what deck I'm playing, I'm always happy to see Black Lotus (esp. when I play combo), while I have been disappointed to draw Bargain or Necro (like when I have enough threats and really just want some more free spells and mana).  However, best does not always mean most powerful.  However, I can see someone making a legitimate argument for it, as it is often necessary to fuel Desire and Will (and it pays for half of Bargain and all of Necro).  The order will often depend on the deck (as some decks use cards better than others, like Mana Drain for instance), and after 5 or 10, it starts to get really difficult to rank.  I think it's just better to collect the 20 most powerful cards, if that's what you want, and don't bother with order.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2005, 01:30:47 am by JDizzle » Logged
rvs
cybernetically enhanced
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2083


You can never have enough Fling!

morfling@chello.nl MoreFling1983NL
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2005, 01:53:42 am »

The objectively best card is Balance.
Logged

I can break chairs, therefore I am greater than you.

Team ISP: And as a finishing touch, god created The Dutch!
asmoranomardicodais
Basic User
**
Posts: 318


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2005, 03:21:47 am »

It is a good point that different decks will find different cards more powerful than others, but I still think we can get close to an objective list of the best cards. Let's at least try.

Totally forgot about mana drain, it should be up there somewhere.

Force needs to be up there, just for the fact that it does balance the format. A card that has four copies in every deck that can run should be on this list, at least somewhere. Although it may not be a game winner, it alters the format in such a way that I feel it deserves to be one of the top twenty.

Should Library of Alexandria be up there? I didn't put it there, but I kinda feel it should be.

Mind's Desire should be up there, and I'll fit that in.

I don't think black lotus merits being the highest card up there. Yawgmoth's Will wins games, period, as does Ancestral. Although black lotus also wins games, and Yawgmoth's Will wouldn't be the same without it, the other two are bombs that need to be higher than it.

I'll also remove Time walk, Timetwister, and Timespiral. Your right, those don't make it onto the top twenty.
Logged
Hi-Val
Attractive and Successful
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1941


Reinforcing your negative body image

wereachedparity
View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2005, 09:58:09 am »

H8 ordered lists. You end up arguing over what's better than what. Is Time Spiral better than Wheel of Fortune? Is Mox Pearl better than Mana Crypt? This gets you nowhere, and from a practical standpoint, it doesn't lend any help to people trying to understand the format's cards. I reccommend:

Stupid Good:
Ancestral
Tinker
Time Walk
Will
Lotus
Academy

Retardedly good:
Moxes
Crypt
Sol Ring
FOW
Drain
BRAINSTROM

Leet with Leetsauce:
Mind's Desire
Balance
Necro
Bargain
Fastbond

etc. If you organize things into tiers, at least people can see what cards are good in just about every deck vs what's insane in one or two decks. That said, there's no arbitrary number of top cards you can have, so why not make Top 46? You can fit in a lot more cards...
Logged

Team Meandeck: VOTE RON PAUL KILL YOUR PARENTS MAKE GOLD ILLEGAL

Quote from: Steve Menendian
Doug was really attractive to me.
Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2297


King of the Jews!


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2005, 12:18:19 pm »

The most powerful effect in the entire game is Sway of the Stars. Not for the cost though.
Logged

http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF
----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
asmoranomardicodais
Basic User
**
Posts: 318


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2005, 04:36:33 pm »

Okay, I like Hi-Val's version. I'll organize it into four tiers of approximately five cards each. That will be a lot easier to do this with.

Tier I:

Yawgmoth's Will
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Tinker
Necropotence
Tolarian Academy
Mishra's Workshop
 
Tier II:

Yawgmoth's Bargain
Mind's Desire
Mana Drain
Mox Sapphire
Force of Will
Mox Jet

Tier III:

Wheel of Fortune
Balance
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mox Pearl
Mox Emerald

Tier IV

Fact or Fiction
Cunning Wish
Brainstorm
Time Walk


How is that?
Logged
Komatteru
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 783

Joseiteki


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2005, 04:54:34 pm »

I'll reiterate:
I don't think that Force of Will is necessarily one of the most powerful cards in Vintage.  It is the most necessary because it balances the format, but Duress also does that (albiet in not quite the same way, and Duress's strength in non-combo decks in the current meta has been fading pretty quickly).

Ancestral Recall is undercosted.  You need to remember this.  This makes it broken only in the first few turns.  Topdecking Ancestral on turn 20 has the same effect as topdecking Concentrate.  Mana Drain is still objectively stronger than Ancestral because there are other cards that do the same thing as Ancestral, just cost more.  There is no other card in the game that does what Mana Drain does.  You can't build a deck around Ancestral, but you can build a deck around Mana Drain.  Similarly, decks have been built around Yawgmoth's Will (orignal Long more than anything else, DeathLong, and to an extent, Meandeck Gifts), Yawgmoth's Bargain (Rector Therapy).  In extended, we've saw decks centered around Necropotence, Tinker, and Mind's Desire.  All of those were not able to have an impact in their extended forms because the cards had already been restricted by that time.  The Tier I cards should have no cards that do anything close to them.  Balance is an example of such a card.  If it weren't white, I doubt anyone would ever forget about it.

Cunning Wish is total trash now.  Gifts Ungiven >>> Cunning Wish.
Logged
Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2297


King of the Jews!


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2005, 09:00:13 pm »

Quote
There is no other card in the game that does what Mana Drain does.
Spelljack comes the closest. Both counter the spell; one gives you mana equal to the casting cost, the other lets you play the spell for free (which is like getting mana equal ot the casting cost, plus the spell itself). Spelljack gives you card advantage, but the mana you get can only be spent on the card you countered. Spelljack gives us a reasonable estimate for how much a balanced Drain should cost.
Logged

http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF
----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2005, 10:59:37 pm »

I think Balance is by far the most broken spell in the game.  It does something for 1W that shouldn't even be possible, putting yourself ahead (assuming you have artifacts) while putting your opponent behind several turns.

And Balance is good on turn 1 or turn 37.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Lashkar
Basic User
**
Posts: 22


29168523 rasmu@mail1.stofanet.dk
View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 07:54:44 am »

No way Time Walk i sin Tier IV, it's bonkers. Sure, in some decks it's just a silly cantrip, especially so when not played right. But consider some of the best decks of the last few years - GAT, Tog, MD Gifts and gifts in general - in those decks TW is easily one of the most, if not the most, powerful of the P9, perhaps alongside Lotus because of the interaction with Will. Obviously, this is farily subjective, TW isn't always very awesome in pure combo (though it certainly can be), but on the other hand, you don't see a lot of combo-control decks packing Bargain or Desire either. In combo-control and aggro-control, TW is ĂĽber-awesome though.

I agree balance should be Tier I as well. Balance wins you games the turn you start playing them, in the late game and most importantly - when you have no business winning them any longer.

I'd never put Workshop over Drain either. Workshop decks are almost always inherently worse and/or inconsistent than Drain decks.
Logged
forests failed you
De Stijl
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2018


Venerable Saint

forcefieldyou
View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2005, 01:55:39 pm »

IN ORDER FROM MOST TO LEAST

1 black lotus
2 mox sapphire
3 mox jet
4 mox ruby
5 mox emerald
6 mox pearl
7 mana crypt
8 tinker
9 force of will
10 ancestral recall

11 time walk
12 mana drain
13 tolerian academy
14 yawgmoths will
15 dark ritual
16 Balance
17 strip mine
18 demonic tutor
19 brainstorm
20 sol ring


Artifacts that cost zero to cast and make Mana are the most powerful cards in the game.  Moxes and Lotus are the entire reason that Yawgmoth's Will is good in type one.

Black Lotus is AT LEAST twenty times more powerful than any other card in the game.  I back that up with the statstic that I have won the last 26 consecutive games where I have resolved a turn one Lotus.  (and i don't even play combo...).   The card is actually stupid.
Logged

Grand Prix Boston 2012 Champion
Follow me on Twitter: @BrianDeMars1
racetraitor
Basic User
**
Posts: 42


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2005, 02:15:07 pm »

Mox Pearl better than Yawgmoth's Will? Strip Mine better than Desire/Bargain/Necro (which aren't even on your list)? You have got to be kidding...
Logged

Destroy all dreamers with debt and depression
xthexpunisherx
Basic User
**
Posts: 89


Metal Jared

xthexpunisherx
View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 12:06:58 pm »

IN ORDER FROM MOST TO LEAST

1 black lotus
2 mox sapphire
3 mox jet
4 mox ruby
5 mox emerald
6 mox pearl
7 mana crypt
8 tinker
9 force of will
10 ancestral recall

11 time walk
12 mana drain
13 tolerian academy
14 yawgmoths will
15 dark ritual
16 Balance
17 strip mine
18 demonic tutor
19 brainstorm
20 sol ring


Artifacts that cost zero to cast and make Mana are the most powerful cards in the game.  Moxes and Lotus are the entire reason that Yawgmoth's Will is good in type one.

Black Lotus is AT LEAST twenty times more powerful than any other card in the game.  I back that up with the statstic that I have won the last 26 consecutive games where I have resolved a turn one Lotus.  (and i don't even play combo...).   The card is actually stupid.

How is balance less powerful than Time Walk, Force of Will, Dark Ritual.  One its restricted if you put 4 Balance in a deck (in a good deck not the old balance deck) I don't see you losing to many games people seem to forget how powerful the effect of balance is.  The only other card that you can go "oh crap i'm going to lose <top deck card x> oh crap I won!" is Yawg Will. 
Logged

Quote from: Tyler Durdan
We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars . . . but we won't. We're slowly learning that fact and we're very, very pissed off.
Revvik
Basic User
**
Posts: 725


Team BC

Revvik
View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2005, 12:08:00 pm »

Remember, he doesn't play combo  Razz
My major complaint with his list was putting Mana Crypt AFTER Mox Pearl, but whatever.

Mind's Desire isn't so good without interaction with the other cards on the list - same with Bargain.  Six mana enchantment that comes down late in the game without all those other cards, whereas Strip Mine just needs to be Strip Mine.
Thankfully, though, this is Type One, so those cards DO interact with the others and often seal the game upon resolution.
Logged

http://www.thehardlessons.com/

I will break into your house while you aren't home and disguise myself as a chair. Then I will leave before you get home, but there will be a place at your table where I was a chair and you will wonder why there isn't a chair there. Then later I will leave the chair disguise on your doorstep and you will realize what has happened and you will be afraid all the time. Helter Skelter mother fuckers!
Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2005, 12:10:44 pm »

The problem is that one cannot actually say what the strongest card ever is without a specific criteria.

For example, there are a number of cards that say "I win the game" like Coalition Victory.  Without considerations of cost, clearly those are incredible cards.  But once you factor in considerations of cost, they are terrible.

Take Bargain and Necro:

Which is stronger?

Bargain says: Win Now

Necro Says: win next turn

One is half as expensive.  One can be played in lots of decks, one can only be played in a very few. 

I will say a few words:

Any list that doesn't have LED in the top20 is wrong.  Mana Crypt is better than Mox Pearl.  FOW IS one of the most powerful cards in the format. 
Logged
warble
Basic User
**
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2005, 01:59:13 pm »

Any list that doesn't have LED in the top20 is wrong. Mana Crypt is better than Mox Pearl. FOW IS one of the most powerful cards in the format.

It's true that fast mana is the most broken aspect of type 1.  Period.  This is reflected by placing all draw power/recursion (even yawgwin) after the fast mana.

However, I believe the issue with LED is the deck composition requirement around it.  For example, are we saying the Power 20 for Tendrils, the Power 20 for Control, the Power 20 for Aggro (in which case Null Rod deserves 2 spots)?  I can honestly say LED is the "2nd black lotus that breaks the deck" for a number of type 1 decks.  However, I can also state with confidence that Null Rod is just as important to another genre of decks that simply would not be playable without at least 3.  Were null rod restricted, the entire type 1 scene would adjust meaning it is a very powerful card.

I would hate to see a thread dedicated to power go awry because of a squabble over deck types, but limiting the power 20 to only win conditions, draw power and fast mana is not reflective of the metagame balance.

Edit: *should* be placed after the fast mana.  Your list seems to be having issues with putting fast mana before money spells
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 03:19:45 pm by warble » Logged
Komatteru
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 783

Joseiteki


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2005, 02:11:35 pm »

Quote from: Revvik
Six mana enchantment that comes down late in the game without all those other cards

I disagree.  Bargain is ridiculous at any point in the game.  Resolving Bargain on turn 10 is just as likely to win you the game as resolving it on turn 2, assuming you have sufficient life to make it worthwhile.

Quote from: Smmenen
Any list that doesn't have LED in the top20 is wrong.  Mana Crypt is better than Mox Pearl.  FOW IS one of the most powerful cards in the format.

I agree that LED is totally ridiculous, but it is a very limited card.  Don't get me wrong, I love LED and tend to win games where I get it, as long as I can use it effectively.  Clearly, LED's synergy with Wishes and Draw7s when I know both are going to resolve ranks in the top 3 broken plays of all Magic, but that's the issue right there.  LED is only good in response to a Wish or Draw7 when I know that spell is going to resolve (like once I've cleared the way with Duress), and not especially great otherwise.  The fact that you can't cast spells off its mana, or use it in many situations makes it too limited to be one of the most powerful 20 cards in print.  It's also insane in Belcher, where you can crack LED, weld in Belcher, and activate it off the LED mana.  That's busted, but also a very limited use.  LED is an engine card in that respect.  On its own, it's completely worthless.  In tandem with other broken cards (Wishes, Draw7s, Welder, etc.) it's ridiculous, and that's why it deserves its place on the restricted list.  It's highly abusable, which is explicitly different from being overly powerful.

I think LED is a combo only card, while Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain would show up in more than just a few combo decks if they were legal as 4-ofs.  Granted, Mind's Desire fits that bill as well, but Desire is just so overwhelmingly overpowered it's ridiculous.  It is cheating, since you're not paying the cost.  Paying 6 mana to have access to a bunch of cards which you can play for absolutely nothing is just outrageous.  That's why I claim it as my own.  Razz

I still don't agree with FoW as being powerful.  It's necessary.  To me, it's more imporatant in Vintage than basic land.  Think about that statement.  While there has been talk for years of banning Island for being too powerful, basic land is a necessary part of Magic, just like Force of Will is a necessary part of Vintage.  I don't really consider Forest one of the most powerful cards in Type 2 right now, despite the fact that Monogreen decks (in all their various flavors) are probably the best decks in the format.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 02:16:50 pm by JDizzle » Logged
Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2297


King of the Jews!


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2005, 04:59:46 pm »

Quote
I think LED is a combo only card, while Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain would show up in more than just a few combo decks if they were legal as 4-ofs.
Madness sure liked its LEDs. :< Sad
Logged

http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF
----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
Revvik
Basic User
**
Posts: 725


Team BC

Revvik
View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2005, 05:20:24 pm »

Quote
I think LED is a combo only card, while Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain would show up in more than just a few combo decks if they were legal as 4-ofs.
Madness sure liked its LEDs. :< Sad

I still maintain that 4-LED Madness was a far greater threat to metagame stability than 4-LED Long, and the REAL reason behind the restriction of Lion's Eye Diamond. 
Logged

http://www.thehardlessons.com/

I will break into your house while you aren't home and disguise myself as a chair. Then I will leave before you get home, but there will be a place at your table where I was a chair and you will wonder why there isn't a chair there. Then later I will leave the chair disguise on your doorstep and you will realize what has happened and you will be afraid all the time. Helter Skelter mother fuckers!
Bram
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3203


I've got mushroom clouds in my hands


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2005, 05:37:26 pm »

Boy, I really hope you meant to type a " Wink " at the end of that sentence.
Logged

<j_orlove> I am semi-religious
<BR4M> I like that. which half of god do you believe in?
<j_orlove> the half that tells me how to live my life
<j_orlove> but not the half that tells me how others should live theirs

R.I.P. Rudy van Soest a.k.a. MoreFling
Vegeta2711
Bouken Desho Desho?
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1734


Nyah!

Silky172
View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2005, 05:58:56 pm »

SoLoMoxenCryptVaultRitual (10 cards)
Memory Jar
Tinker
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Necropotence
Balance
Mind's Desire
Strip Mine
Channel
Time Walk

Whatever. There's like at least 10-20 more cards that -could- go on this list including Mana Drain, Ancestral Recall and stuff. I just choose these as my preference. BTW kids, remember that this list is y'know, OPINION based. Try not to argue so much over stupid shit. I know not very many people will think Black Vise is worthy of a lot, but I have tried 4 Vise decks and they are -incredibly- good.

The first 10 are easy since DUH they're efficent fast mana that fit into nearly everything. After that the rest are 4-of's, that all basically create very powerful archetypes, except Strip Mine, Vise and Time walk which are just stupidly amazing cards.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 10:23:43 pm by Vegeta2711 » Logged

Team Reflection

www.vegeta2711.deviantart.com - My art stuff!
Revvik
Basic User
**
Posts: 725


Team BC

Revvik
View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2005, 06:14:59 pm »

Boy, I really hope you meant to type a " Wink " at the end of that sentence.

Is he joking?  Eh?
Hah, when have I ever been serious on these boards?  Razz
Logged

http://www.thehardlessons.com/

I will break into your house while you aren't home and disguise myself as a chair. Then I will leave before you get home, but there will be a place at your table where I was a chair and you will wonder why there isn't a chair there. Then later I will leave the chair disguise on your doorstep and you will realize what has happened and you will be afraid all the time. Helter Skelter mother fuckers!
Mykeatog
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 265


Mykeatog
View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2005, 06:55:50 pm »

Did we just let someone get away with saying black vise was in the top twenty?

Get off the stick on that one Wizards.

I like the idea of top 20 for different deck types, it just makes more sence - even if only broken into the 4 catagories (control, aggro, combo, and prison).

Logged

Free Agent
Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2005, 01:22:18 am »

My top 20 in alphabetical order:

Ancestral Recall 
Black Lotus   
Channel (I can't beleive JP argued to unrestrict this once Wink )
Fastbond
Force of Will
Lion’s Eye Diamond 
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault 
Mind’s Desire
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire 
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Time Walk   
Tinker
Yawgmoth’s Bargain
Yawgmoth’s Will

Just missed the cut:
Lotus Petal
Crop Rotation (fucking insane card)
Academy
Strip Mine
Demonic Consultation (the best tutor IMO from an objective standpoint)


Channel and Fastbond are both stonger than those cards from an objective standpoint, I think.  Everything else is autoinclude mana or Ba-Roke shit. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 01:31:54 am by Smmenen » Logged
Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2297


King of the Jews!


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2005, 12:54:15 pm »

LED, but not Academy? Could you explain that more?

Other than that it all makes obvious sense.
Logged

http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF
----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2005, 12:48:27 am »

LED, but not Academy? Could you explain that more?

Other than that it all makes obvious sense.

I'm still laughing when I look at the first lists: FoF? Vegeta's was pretty close to mine - only 5 or so cards different...  I'm not even sure how bad unrestricted Black Vise would be today.  Refering to the card on his list.  Two years ago, you would have had a much stronger argument - but control decks today can't really count on having a full grip at any point past turn one nor do they need one.  Vise would probalby do like 4-5 points of damage a game.  And multiples, at most 6-9.  Stax couldn't run it because you need lock parts not damage.  Your win condition is irrellevant.  workshop aggro could probably use Vises, but I'm not sure how strong they would be after Gifts goes; Mox, Mox, Land, etc.  I'm not saying Vise should be unrestricted, but I definately think it is in the bottom 15 cards in the restricted list. 

To answer your question:
I made my list based upon objective view in the context of the card pool.  There is so many criteria to use in deciding what card is truly "best."  You could use frequency in the metagame, but obviously that precludes severely neutered but insanely broken cards when unrestricted like Channel, Necro, etc. 

There are so many ways of looking at it. 

Let me just ask a few different questions in comparing LEd and Academy and see how we come out:

1) If both were unrestricted which would be more powerful?
I think the answer is definately LED here.  The marginal value of a second academy first of all is zero.  Having a really good chance of seeing Academy on turn one would be solid - esp with carsd like Cloud of Faeries, but the problem is that Academy is going to be best on turn two or three and even four.  On turn one, you probably need to play brainstorm or a draw7 to drop enough artifacts to really get your Academy going. 

LED is fucktarded on turn one if it can be relied upon.  If meandeck tendrils could run 4 LEds, or if 2 Land Belcher could run 4 LEds... or if Death long  Wink given what we know about combo now, I thikn any of those decks could be as good as long.dec was in late 2003. 

To summarize:
The problem is that Academy is just slow.  It is a really good accellerant, but its hits its curve on turn 2+.  If you are really lucky, you can tap it for 3 on turn one, but you probably have little juice.  Academy is often going to be 1-2 mana on turn one.  LED is going to be 3 mana on turn one and what's more it will often be more becuase you can draw and play multiples - not so with Academy.  You get one land drop and even if you had more viaFastbond, it wouldn't do you any good unless you had Crop Rotation. 

2) Which is narrower?
I think the answer unfortunately is that LED is narrower.   Two Caveats: 1) LED is not nearly as narrow as people think.  2) restriction makes LED significantly narrower than it otherwise would be in comparison to Academy

Academy is uniformly useful.  Restriction certainly makes it less dependable, but it is still highly playable.  On the other hand, restriction KILLS LED.  The reason is simple, Academy is more widely useable but not as abusable.  Academy is a throw in card in any combo-control deck in Vintage and is obviously autoinclude in any Workshop deck. 

I think when LED was restricted, we were on the cusp of seeing a literal explosion of decks being able to use LED.  The 2 land belchr deck was developed only 2 months later.  Imagine if there were 4 LEDs to play in that.

Here is my view on LED and why I hold caveat 1 above:

Vintage is highly zone centric.  LED IS MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to Black Lotus than it would appear.  The drawback is rather mild compared to what it could be.  Having to discard your hand after you play a spell you want to respond to with LED is not that big of a deal for a huge number of reasons.  I'll just go through some of them.

First of all, cards like Brainstorm, top, etc and the fast accelleration enable you to manipulate the top of your library far better than you ever could before (Imagine LED + Top - how laucky!).  The printing of fetchlands made Brainstorm a good card.

second,T1 is highly zone centric.  I'm not just talking about the GY although that is a huge component.  LED is ridiculous when played in conjunction with Yawg Will.  But is also QUITE powerful with other Gy related cards like Goblin Welder.  I would love to see multiple LEDs in 2 land belcher with Welders.  Play two LEDs  sac them.  weld in belcher and activate - you die.

Third, and I'm repeating becuase its worth repeating - Type One is highly zone centric.  Memory jar?  Memory jar basically reads: move your hand into RFG zone and top 7 cards of your library into your hand.  I wondered for a while if I could Death wish for a card in my face down hand (don't think I haven't come to that situation).  Take Tutors.  What are tutors?  Tutors are proxies for a card in your deck.  LED can be used to play the card you find with the tutor.  That doesn't even get us to cards like Slaver...

With a deck like Meandeck Tendrils, your hand, your library and your board is just sort of a mash with cards moving between all three in rapid succession.  LED in that deck would have virtuallly no real limitation. 

Fourth, LED activates things.  Belcher, Slaver, and I'm sure there are others. 

LED is a narrower card objectively, but Academy is slower and less explosive. And the fact that LED is narrower doesn't say much becuase it is still much closer to Black Lotus than people give it credit for.  And in one small way, it's better.   
Logged
Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2297


King of the Jews!


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2005, 10:20:04 am »

What is that small way? That you can tap it to Tangle Wire and still use it? Or madness creatures, or that it (in combination with Welder) can get a Belcher into play through Meddling Mage? I can think of about four situations where it's better (even if we don't include "cost") - which were you thinking of?
Logged

http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF
----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
Hi-Val
Attractive and Successful
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1941


Reinforcing your negative body image

wereachedparity
View Profile
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2005, 11:55:34 am »

I think these lists would be a lot more interesting if people did what Wizards did and grouped all the moxes together. That way, you get 4 more slots to drop stuff in.

Thinking about it again on reflection, I think Channel might be a little more busted than Black Lotus in T1. 3 mana of any color is pretty strong, but so is 19 colorless. Were it unrestricted, I bet some mostly green Belcher abomination would arise that used Land Grant, ESG, all the colored moxes and Chrome Sphere to make sure that you hit GG on your first turn, which would lead to a literal GG.
Logged

Team Meandeck: VOTE RON PAUL KILL YOUR PARENTS MAKE GOLD ILLEGAL

Quote from: Steve Menendian
Doug was really attractive to me.
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.166 seconds with 17 queries.