Saving T1......Help!!!!

[Danzig]

... No... Do most people like Smennen... No...

Ok.... so why is that?

Becuase if that is the case, then there is no reason for me to be here.  Say that it is and you'll never see me on the drain again. 

It is irrational to be a part of a community in which I am disliked.

I don't hate you've had my Dark Rituals for over 3 months already.

[xthexpunisherx]

I'm honestly surprised at how much people think Balance is so good.  Probably the deck in the format best able to abuse Balance right now would be 5c stax variants - but even then, I'm not so sure that unrestricted balance or mind twist would be 1/4th as bad as people think although maybe 1/5th.  Balance has alot of flaws that weren't apparent when it was "so good." We played the balance deck in my tourament of banned decks last year and it was fucking wretched.   One problem with balance is that decks are much more efficient and much faster then they were in the past.  Brainstorm can pretty much undo a balance by helping you recover faster becuase your opponent puts resources into the balance to try and maximize it.  I don't think that 4 Balance.dec would honestly be worse than Trinipshere.  Which isn't saying much, but it's saying something. 

Well I remember how the old balance deck got destoryed in the banned tourney but you shouldn't be thinking of 1995 tech for balance.  I can only imagine the amazing decks people could come up with if they could use 4x balance.  But that doesn't really matter since they will never unrestrict balance.  I'll never understand how somthing whose power you can't accuratly describe can cost 1W and no one thinks its powerful... even if it does require white mana.

[Revvik]

Sure it matters, even if they won't unrestrict it.  You should try holding fun mini-tournaments where you can take any one non-Power9 restricted card per deck and run it as a 4-of.
Decks designed to use 4x Academy, 4x Balance, etc.

[xthexpunisherx]

Sure it matters, even if they won't unrestrict it.  You should try holding fun mini-tournaments where you can take any one non-Power9 restricted card per deck and run it as a 4-of.
Decks designed to use 4x Academy, 4x Balance, etc.

On note with that I would like to say that Balance has the greatest Power level vs cost of any card ever printed.  Looking on cardshark people are selling Revised Balances for $1.25.  Can't get anything else that broken for that price.

[Matt]

I got my Tinkers for $0.50 apiece, back in the day...

[Komatteru]

On note with that I would like to say that Balance has the greatest Power level vs cost of any card ever printed.  Looking on cardshark people are selling Revised Balances for $1.25.  Can't get anything else that broken for that price.

I just purchased an FBB Consultation for $0.29.  Somehow, this purchase made me happier than any other in my Magic career.

[Revvik]

I'm skeptical about that.  What language?

[Lunar]

I dont think I would have ever kept up with T1 in the first place if it wasnt for smmemycakes...

T1 doenst really need saving...I voted for everybody to stop whining and just play the damn game. If you cant hack losing unfairly then this isnt your format, go play draft (which is pretty fair IMO) Vintage is completely unfair in most regards with the only exception being that BOTH players are playing unfair decks...but thats the point and if it wasnt Id go draft or play KBC...

[Godder]

If you want fair, play Limited. Constructed is unfair in more ways than just broken-ness stealing games. Getting good or bad match-ups is just as much a matter of chance as losing to mana problems or broken-ness.

Hypothetical example: I go into a tournament with a deck that is even or better against the expected decks, but loses to R/G beatz (say). It turns out that there are only 2 R/G beatz decks at this tourney, and I get paired against both of them in the first two rounds, lose, and that's effectively the end of my day.

At least broken-ness makes bad match-ups less bad, so luck of the pairings doesn't have quite as much to do with it.

[Smmenen]

I dont think I would have ever kept up with T1 in the first place if it wasnt for smmemycakes...

Why do you say that?

[dicemanx]

If you cant hack losing unfairly then this isnt your format, go play draft (which is pretty fair IMO)

Distortion.

The fomat is played partially because of the possibility of amazing broken plays and massive game swings, but this is only tolerable to a point. There have been instances in the past where decks/cards were not dominating, but restrictions were "necessary" to prevent the format from going to shit even if there was a "game balance". Having "balance" is not enough. The game has to be fun too, even if you're a competitive player playing to win.

I do agree that the format is not in need of any kind of "saving" right now. However, I'm always ready to listen to arguments on how the format could be improved. I'm on the fence about Smmenen's arguments regarding the banning of Will; I'm likewise on the fence about possible banning of Tinker (which is an argument independent of Will - no direct comparisons should be made or are necessary). I also feel that the last decision that was made that we fought for, the restriction of Trinisphere, was very positive for the format - even though we heard the same shallow unsophisticated counter-arguments that we are hearing now in response to another round of B/R talks revolving around Will. 


 

[Lunar]

@ smmenen

well steve for some strange reason ive always liked your articles and you always kept me coming back for more (strange I know.)

If you and a couple of others werent writing intriguing and sometimes contraversial stuff I probably would have lost interest early on in my T1 outting.

Besides, your one of the few guys around that likes trinisphere.

@ Dicemanx

As to your reply dicemanx...it is only a slight distortion, but also one that should not be taken too out of context...T1 means that sometimes you lose unfairly, this is the nature of the format.  I am not saying the format is all just unfair one sided games, but to stick with T1 for the long term you must be willing to accept that sometimes its just not fair.  The difference between a serious draft or T2 player and a serious T1 player is that the T1 player can usually hack this AND enjoy the game even when it happens, the T1 player has to be a realist and understand that you got take a little to give a little sometimes...Obviously there is a limit to the amount of completely unfair game situations or else it wouldnt be fun, certainly a format with only Long.dec with 4 LED and 4 Burning wish is not fun, obviously unfair but not fun...whereas we have a decent format now with a handful of unfair decks, and even one that seems pretty fair overall (fish) Broken unfair plays still happen (and quite frequently too) and these are what newer players to the format think is stupid and is a good chunk of what people are complaining about...get over this fact and enjoy the best format availible.

While I could see yawg will being banned, I really dont think its quite that time yet...I generally like to adopt wait and see attitudes towards these things...since right now yawg will is more of a mid to late game threat overall (some decks are pushing this though) I dont have a problem with it...If decks continue to push the envelope on it more then I could see it going...

Right now tinker is just fine, if you cant answer DSC then youre playing the wrong deck.  Tinker for other plays like memory jar (or something even better in the future is always possible) are more damaging but as of late this hasnt been too big of an issue.  For as long as people continue to think that tinker into DSC is a big deal I think tinker is just fine...

I will always think restricting trinisphere because it was unfun was bad form and will never fully agree with the decision (even if the format is still good, I think it was done in error...too many lemmings jumping over the cliff on it)  I wont go too much into it, if you really want to discuss it you can always PM me...

later.

[Whatever Works]

Though I didnt choose the option of unrestricting cards it would be extremely interesting... Imagine a format with these cards unrestricted...
Necropotence
Gush
FoF
Black Vise
Balance

Though the prospect of this is absolutely crazy I think it would be interesting to see the mix of absolute crazyness... seeing matchups like 4 gush GAT vs. 4 Necro combo deck Vs. Legend Blue Vs. 4 Balance, 4 Vise Stax... would be neat format, and then yawgmoth's will wouldnt suddenly seem so powerful... However, thats just a fantasy that only becomes relative in the casual forum.

kyle L

[Lunar]

unrestrict trinisphere and ill take 4 sphere/vise stax....

[Smmenen]

If you cant hack losing unfairly then this isnt your format, go play draft (which is pretty fair IMO)

Distortion.

The fomat is played partially because of the possibility of amazing broken plays and massive game swings, but this is only tolerable to a point. There have been instances in the past where decks/cards were not dominating, but restrictions were "necessary" to prevent the format from going to shit even if there was a "game balance". Having "balance" is not enough. The game has to be fun too, even if you're a competitive player playing to win.

I do agree that the format is not in need of any kind of "saving" right now. However, I'm always ready to listen to arguments on how the format could be improved. I'm on the fence about Smmenen's arguments regarding the banning of Will; I'm likewise on the fence about possible banning of Tinker (which is an argument independent of Will - no direct comparisons should be made or are necessary). I also feel that the last decision that was made that we fought for, the restriction of Trinisphere, was very positive for the format - even though we heard the same shallow unsophisticated counter-arguments that we are hearing now in response to another round of B/R talks revolving around Will. 


 

I agree with everything you said except what's in bold.  How is it positive, what specifically has happened that has made it good?  That FIsh re-emerged?  I think the Chalice Vial build would have smacked Trinisphere decks around like mad.  Turn ONe Chalice, Vial, you go Trinisphere, doesn't matter you lose to me having Vial. 

I have seen no evidence at all that Trinisphere restriction was positive for the format.  Not saying I think it was bad - but I was wondering if you could back up that claim.

[xrizzo]

I agree with everything you said except what's in bold.  How is it positive, what specifically has happened that has made it good?  That FIsh re-emerged?  I think the Chalice Vial build would have smacked Trinisphere decks around like mad.  Turn ONe Chalice, Vial, you go Trinisphere, doesn't matter you lose to me having Vial.

I have seen no evidence at all that Trinisphere restriction was positive for the format.  Not saying I think it was bad - but I was wondering if you could back up that claim.

I don't know Diceman's rationale, but I feel the Trinisphere restriction was a great move.  Here's why:

--It prevents the incredible devoid of all skill first turn wins.  (going first, and mulliganing aggressively, this can be achieved something like 80% of the time) 
--It allows decks to win without playing 4x force or 4x trini (meta diversification).  At the time, that was all that was playable. 
--Based on the principle of the power of the card, it certainly warrants restriction given that its successful first turn resolution gives at least 2 time walks.  It is still a great lock piece late in the game to boot!

The existance of workshops, tombs, and mana accelerants made 4x trinisphere not fun to play against.  I think the format is more fun after its restriction, which if you recall was one of the DCI's reasons for restriction in the first place.

[Smmenen]

I agree with everything you said except what's in bold.  How is it positive, what specifically has happened that has made it good?  That FIsh re-emerged?  I think the Chalice Vial build would have smacked Trinisphere decks around like mad.  Turn ONe Chalice, Vial, you go Trinisphere, doesn't matter you lose to me having Vial.

I have seen no evidence at all that Trinisphere restriction was positive for the format.  Not saying I think it was bad - but I was wondering if you could back up that claim.

I don't know Diceman's rationale, but I feel the Trinisphere restriction was a great move.  Here's why:

--It prevents the incredible devoid of all skill first turn wins.  (going first, and mulliganing aggressively, this can be achieved something like 80% of the time) 
--It allows decks to win without playing 4x force or 4x trini (meta diversification).  At the time, that was all that was playable. 
--Based on the principle of the power of the card, it certainly warrants restriction given that its successful first turn resolution gives at least 2 time walks.  It is still a great lock piece late in the game to boot!

The existance of workshops, tombs, and mana accelerants made 4x trinisphere not fun to play against.  I think the format is more fun after its restriction, which if you recall was one of the DCI's reasons for restriction in the first place.

The diversity argument is empiracally wrong on many levels.  The metagame from November of 2004 to Feb of 2005 had the best diversity at the top of any vintage metagame in the docmented history of the format.  I can prove it. 

[dicemanx]

I agree with everything you said except what's in bold.  How is it positive, what specifically has happened that has made it good?  That FIsh re-emerged?  I think the Chalice Vial build would have smacked Trinisphere decks around like mad.  Turn ONe Chalice, Vial, you go Trinisphere, doesn't matter you lose to me having Vial. 

I have seen no evidence at all that Trinisphere restriction was positive for the format.  Not saying I think it was bad - but I was wondering if you could back up that claim.

The restriction of Trinisphere achieved it's goal - it put an end to fortuitous, turn 1 game ending plays that were far too easy to pull off, even though they would backfire some of the time. This occurred without affecting the balance of the format, something that you and many others were worried about - combo failed to dominate, and we've since had the return to Chalice of the Void as an arguably superior disruption card.

[Rico Suave]

Let's be honest here.  A good Workshop deck NOW beats Fish.  I don't even see how Fish would have a chance if Workshop decks also had access to 4 Trinisphere, regardless of Vial or Chalice.

[Lunar]

Combo failed to immediatly dominate the format...you are correct there dicemanx with the exception of my added "immediatly" part.  Drain combo decks are pretty rampant right now, with only fish and chalice of the void (the actual important part, which holds more than just the drain decks in some small amount of check, chalice hoses traditional combo decks even more) holding them in check, and it seems clear that once more and more players start to realize that decks like meandeck gifts can beat fish with proper play and such combo will indeed dominate just like was predicted.  Beyond that we dont know what else lies in store for future releases that might warrent a whole extra round of restrictions that could have been fixed early on if an illegitimate restriction wouldnt have been made in the first place.  "beacuase its not fun" is not a good reason to restrict something.  Personally I dont think its fun to lose to a handful of lame 2/2 and 1/1 creatures, but for some reason a lot of players find this acceptable.  Your argument dicemanx about the return of an even better disruption card is interesting, but in my mindset not completely valid.  Chalice is an amazing card, however its comparison to trinisphere seems moot to me...Chalice is in 90% of decks it seems like now...trinisphere was in 2 different types of decks, and was limited to only decks that run workshop.  Chalice of the void can see play in almost every deck in the format, with only some of the faster combo decks not having a use for it since it shuts off some of their game plan.  How is going from one lock piece that is in a couple of decks, to another one that is in EVERY deck better or good for the format?  It can create game situations that are just as bad as first turn trinisphere, or even worse since now rather than pay 3 for that brainstorm or mox it says you cant play that spell or anything like it at all...Chalice is sweet, I dont want to see it restricted, but I dont like its comparisons to trinisphere...if Chalice isnt too good to be restricted then I really cant see an argument for trinisphere being restricted.

Beyond that, the only reason I can think of for a positive restriction of trinisphere is the direction stax decks in particular have taken since trinisphere has been restricted, I think stax actually benefitted from its loss. The real loss was for workshop aggro decks like 5/3.

@ Xrizzo....could you explain in more detail your argument on 4x Trini or 4x FoW??? I fail to see how anything has changed except its now 4x FoW AND 4x Chalice with a small spattering of 4x sphere of resistance AND 4x Chalice...with the only exceptions on the 4x FoW thing being rather than 4xChalice it either runs that AND 4x Mana Drain or just 4xFoW and 4xDrain...I really fail to see this as an even remotly valid point...it even seems to help validate the argument that trinisphere was incorectly restricted.

Beyond that first turn trinisphere was hardly game over for some decks ie decks with wasteland and decks with rebuild (ie TPS), with wasteland it also negated your claim that it was multiple time walks every time it was resolved...FoW was always a good answer with similar odds of having it in opening hand (even slightly better odds than first turn shop/sphere)

later

[Smmenen]

I agree with everything you said except what's in bold.  How is it positive, what specifically has happened that has made it good?  That FIsh re-emerged?  I think the Chalice Vial build would have smacked Trinisphere decks around like mad.  Turn ONe Chalice, Vial, you go Trinisphere, doesn't matter you lose to me having Vial. 

I have seen no evidence at all that Trinisphere restriction was positive for the format.  Not saying I think it was bad - but I was wondering if you could back up that claim.

The restriction of Trinisphere achieved it's goal - it put an end to fortuitous, turn 1 game ending plays that were far too easy to pull off, even though they would backfire some of the time. This occurred without affecting the balance of the format, something that you and many others were worried about - combo failed to dominate, and we've since had the return to Chalice of the Void as an arguably superior disruption card.

It's a moot point now, so it's probably not worth debating, but I think your whole point about Chalice just suggests that Trinisphere didn't deserve restriction. 

[xrizzo]

The diversity argument is empiracally wrong on many levels.  The metagame from November of 2004 to Feb of 2005 had the best diversity at the top of any vintage metagame in the docmented history of the format.  I can prove it. 

Although it would have been interesting to debate, it isn't worth our effort at this point.  My bolded reason was the main reason, I would have thought that would have been addressed first...

@ Xrizzo....could you explain in more detail your argument on 4x Trini or 4x FoW??? I fail to see how anything has changed except its now 4x FoW AND 4x Chalice with a small spattering of 4x sphere of resistance AND 4x Chalice...with the only exceptions on the 4x FoW thing being rather than 4xChalice it either runs that AND 4x Mana Drain or just 4xFoW and 4xDrain...I really fail to see this as an even remotly valid point...it even seems to help validate the argument that trinisphere was incorectly restricted.

Before trini's restriction, some 95% of tournament T8's were won by decks with 4x FOW or 4x Trinisphere.  By exchanging 4x Trini for 4x Chalice and/or 4x Sphere of Resistance, it gives players a fair 'out' against those types of decks.  If the workshop player has both chalice for 0 and sphere of resistance on turn 1, then at least it requires 2 cards rather than 1 to get a similar effect.  With just chalice or just sphere the game is MUCH more fair than just Trini. 

I will not go so far as to say you no longer need to play 4x FOW, but the main argument is that by removing the likely play of first turn trini, it has opened up the metagame to other decks that were impossible to run under the old conditions.

Beyond that first turn trinisphere was hardly game over for some decks ie decks with wasteland and decks with rebuild (ie TPS), with wasteland it also negated your claim that it was multiple time walks every time it was resolved...

First of all, following a trinisphere with wasteland does not somehow mean the game is even.  You run less mana sources than they do, yours don't produce 3 mana, and they already droppped their acceleration...  You just used one of your mana producing lands to stop their workshop, and now must rely on drawing 3 more lands just to play anything.  This ends up being a triple time walk IF you even get 3 straight land drops.  In the meantime, they drop another land (maybe even workshop) and use their other acceleration to dump out threats and/or lock pieces.

FoW was always a good answer with similar odds of having it in opening hand (even slightly better odds than first turn shop/sphere)

When first turn FOW is the ONLY good answer to a card that can be played 80%+ of the time going first, we have a good case for restriction.  (first turn FOW is common, but you are not likely to mulligan as aggressively as they can for their trinisphere...

Nobody even addressed my last point, which might have the most credence given that it was one of the main arguments the DCI used for restriction:

The existance of workshops, tombs, and mana accelerants made 4x trinisphere not fun to play against.  I think the format is more fun after its restriction, which if you recall was one of the DCI's reasons for restriction in the first place.

EDIT:

NOBODY stopped playing FoW just because trinisphere was restricted...!

  Nobody claimed this either...

@Lunar:  Sure, fun is subjective.  It just so happens that the DCI and most players shared the view that Trinisphere was unfun, and fewer players share your viewpoint: that it is just another broken card playable as a 4 of...

[Lunar]

I addressed it by saying that playing against 1/1 and 2/2 creatures isnt fun in my opinion.  Fun is relative, what one thinks is fun isnt really what everybody thinks is fun...stax decks are just as unfun to play against as they ever were, and if anything the abundance of chalice of the void in almost every deck makes the format less fun overall since its completely dominated by one card right now.

To get first turn trinisphere the odds are pretty close to getting first turn force of will...if you want to debate aggressive mulligans to get into first turn trini then you have to concede the fact that a player can just as easily do it to mull into force if they are in a trinisphere filled area...as it stands first turn FoW is needed to stop the few combo decks that are around, or is needed to stop other key first turn cards...

As to the 4x FoW thing...I guess I could go back and look at phillips numbers buy Id guess that a very similar number of decks are top 8ing with FoW or Chalice now rather than FoW or Trinisphere, in fact im willing to bet that around half of the FoW decks are running chalice as well...

The restriction just created a replacement effect...rather than 75% of decks running FoW and 25% running Trinisphere, you now have 80% of decks running FoW and probably close to 90% of decks running Chalice...

NOBODY stopped playing FoW just because trinisphere was restricted...!

Ive already given my opinion on fairness in T1...its an objective viewpoint...what one thinks is fair in a format another might think is completely unfair...for example, I think playing 1 card to tutor for 2 restricted cards and two more for the yard that can be replayed (thus cheating the restricted list entirely) is unfair...do I think it should be changed? NO.  Trinisphere let you replay time walk several times...albeit in a slightly different fashion than current gifts decks.  That was unfair too, but what some people didnt like was the level of unfair....Yawgmoths Will is unfair every time it is played, yet only a few people think it needs to go...its a line in the sand...I really think that many peoples lines are determined by how long they have been in the format...if youve played against Long.dec then your level of fair is probably going to be more skewed than somebody who has only played against say TPS.  TPS is a very unfair deck, yet not quite as unfair as Long.dec was.  Some still thought that TPS was still too unfair though and were calling for the restriction of Dark Ritual as well...this has proven unneeded...

So what levels of fairness should T1 be expected to have?  I think it should be pretty unfair overall...the brokenness of our format is why I play it...I there wasnt always that risk of just losing all of a sudden it wouldnt be as fun, it also works vice versa, you yourself get to be unfair and have a shot at winning right away as well.

I think another thing that people didnt like about trinisphere is that it blatently showed them that they were going to lose, it was almost like gloating everytime it dropped...nener nener nener, I win you lose la de da de dah...People some how find this less fair than a gifts player holding that same nener nener card in their hand until the last possible moment...both decks have already won, you just dont always see it right away, and I think that blatent I win play left a bad taste in some players mouths..

[forests failed you]

Turn one Trinisphere did not equal game over; and even in the situations where it did it required certain things to happen.

The Shop player had to win the die roll (which only happens half of the time) and the shop player's opponent had to not have Force of Will in hand.  Not to mention if both players were playing Workhop it definitely did not equal game over.

I myself have played out of an opponents turn one Trinisphere dozens of times, Via wastelands when I was playing blue decks; or Tangle Wires, Wasteland/Crucible when I was playing Workshop decks. Not to mention, if the Trinisphere player was second, there were many more ways of killing 3sphere.

Secondly, what does it even matter anymore?  The DCI nixed it, so its time to move on.

[Lunar]

The dci has nixed a number of cards over the years....some have come back...

Not that trinisphere would be un-restricted any time soon...

But youre right its a moot point...as me and smmenen have stated a couple of times, we added more since others added more against it...

I just dont really remember this many complaints about the format BEFORE trinisphere left...when it was still around the only real complain came from a handful of newer vintage players that didnt like losing to first turn trinisphere, I never really heard any arguments on the format being unbalanced, on proxy levels and this and that and everything in between...

Has anybody else noticed this?  I really think people were happier before it left our format than they are now...even if they didnt realize it then, or still dont realize it now.

[forests failed you]

I agree with you completely, as far as your arguement is concerned.  Trinisphere's Restriction was = lameness on the part of the DCI. 

However, I'm not sure people are more or less happy now as compared to before Aaron's edict came down.

I'll admit I was one of the most pissed off people argueing for Trinisphere to stay in the format, and  was unpleasantly surprised and disconcerted when the word came down that it was to be restricted.

However, decks evolve and people move on and adapt to what the DCI does or doesn't do.  This thread has gotten really clutterred, someone should break the seperate ideas that are being discussed down into more focused avenues of discussion and start two or three different threads; one about Yawgmoth's Will, and then possibly another about the effect Trinisphere's Restriction has had on the attitude's of Vintage players, if need be.

It isn't that discussing Trinisphere is a moot point, (because it is actually fascinating) but rather debating back and fourth about how people feel about Trinisphere seems to take away from the thread.  I think that Yawgmoth's will is actually something that needs to be discussed and considered, and that it might be a much more concentrated use of this thread.  I'm not trying to slight anyone here, merely put the conversation on a different track.

Cheers,

[Lunar]

yeh, but this is a thread in the basic user community about general topics in general right??? I think that we can look at another recent example to apply it to a new idea that has been brought forward by some members of the community...

Here we can take past restrictions/unrestrictions and apply them towards future bannings/restrictions...

I do agree that the trinisphere debate has probably gone far enough here for our purposes, however I think that the fact that a much maligned card still gets a lot of favorable responses shows that something as major as banning yawgmoths will could be beyond anything that we can handle as a format...

Honostly I do not think that yawg will needs to be banned right now, and I also dont think that it would destroy the format if it did, in fact it could be good for us all to get rid of this potentially hazardous card while we can...

Of interesting note is the recent rash of people calling for the errataing and un banning of things like contract from below...which I personally think would be terrible...

There are many issues to discuss, and its partially the fault of the thread starter for making such a general thread...I do think that even with the broad range of posts in here its all been pretty good and mostly relevant to the major issues at hand for the T1 community..

Steve has shown that Yawg Will being banned should allow for less cards to be restricted in the future and might even allow for other cards to be unrestricted in the immediate demise of yawg will...

On similar note, the restriction of trinisphere, had people crying out for the restriction of a number of other cards in the format, since they believed at the time that certain things would happen if trinisphere was restricted...Dark Ritual, and beyond that I do believe that steve and myself and some others predicted that if dark rit was restricted we could see more serious restrictions in the future like the god like mana drain.

I think we SHOULD argue about the trinisphere situation based on the fact that similar occurances will happen should yawg will be banned...What will people want unrestricted and what will people use as arguments to keep them gone?  If trinisphere being restricted inapropriatly caused such a situation imagine what would happen if we were to ban a card simply for power reasons for the first time ever?

Should we open those flood gates?

Does the format need it right now?

Steve claims that doing it now would keep future cards off the restricted list...I think, however, that by waiting until said cards showed up in the future (say something that 100% needed yawg will to actually work, but was as broken as long.dec) to ban yawg will we could keep it for now in a format that seems to work okay.

Personally I hate that fish is such a big part of T1 now, but that is a fact of life.  What would banning yawg will do right now for the format?  Would fish get better? or would fish fade since the decks it does well against would lose a central part of their power...

What possible future do you see?

[Revvik]

I'd like to make a corollary between Yawgmoth's Will and Mishra's Workshop.

If Yawgmoth's Will remains a part of the format, then future printings of Will-enablers will become restricted.  Some say this is a bad thing, but I think I know what the DCI's policy would be like on this topic.

Now, leaving Mishra's Workshop unrestricted means that future artifacts abusable with Mishra's Worskhop are targets for restriction.  Mishra's Workshop had, until recently, a playset of the most powerful card that could have been played off it first turn - Trinisphere.  Under Steven's criteria, Mishra's Workshop would be restricted to neuter its power and to prevent future restrictions of otherwise 'innocent' cards.  However, despite the overwhelming power of Trinisphere*, Mishra's Workshop is still unrestricted, despite the fact that it will cause future restrictions.

* No arguments as to whether Trinisphere was crippling or not, it's not the point of what I was saying.

As far as Fish is concerned, I don't know what kind of an impact Yawgmoth's Will would have on their power.  I played at the Star City this weekend, and instead of playing to a Yawgmoth's Will win, I focused on a straight Psychatog win (in other words, instead of focusing on fueling a large Yawgmoth's Will, I won small with Psychatog and defensive plays until I got a solid opening for Wish --> Berserk).  I 2-0'd every Fish player I faced.  So I don't think that a lack of Yawgmoth's Will would help their standing any.