A Small Question about Monoblue Control

[DeMarki]

Do you think it is a good idea to run 2 Shackles main or just leave it in the SB? Damn I just can't make the right decision!

[jackpot]

I'd lose the tinker/DSC and the two shackles completly.I'd seriously consider runninng 3-4 Isochron scepter. Probably 3 and then add a cunning wish if you haven't already. A mana drain, ancestral, mystical tutor, or even brainstorm is great. Hurkyll's recall on a stick is hot. You may also consider splashing red for Fire/ice if you go w/ the Isochron. This can tap DSC, draw a card,  kill off welders or just kill off the opponent.  Of course, this means you're no longer MUC, but hey.  An opposing DSC is a big problem. Shackles wasn't going to help against DSC, anyways. Bouncing it or tapping it is the best solution. Stealing it is mana intensive and played at sorcery speed, which is bad. No, I'm not going to even suggest Ray of command or Dominate! NO!

[DeMarki]

Hell, why is the whole Tinker-DSC sudenly a bad idea? You guys have been playing that like crazy since DSC came out and it has always been an ultra-cool and fast winning condition. And now suddenly it sucks? I don't get it.

[+t]

Hell, why is the whole Tinker-DSC sudenly a bad idea? You guys have been playing that like crazy since DSC came out and it has always been an ultra-cool and fast winning condition. And now suddenly it sucks? I don't get it.

Did you even read the thread?

Darksteel Colossus is bad in monoblue.  You have no realistic ways to get rid of the fucker, since running Chalice necessitates not running Brainstorm, and Thirst doesn't really work with the deck the way the draw spells have to function.  I liked it at one point, but I no longer feel that's the direction the deck should be going in.

[DeMarki]

Yes I read it, but I don;t understand what he means by saying that " Darksteel Colossus is bad in monoblue.  You have no realistic ways to get rid of the fucker" What does he mean get rid of him?
 I thought that the question was if is a good idea to INCLUDE him in the deck and to RUN him with Tinker, not if Monoblue is weak VS him!

[Disburden]

Yes I read it, but I don;t understand what he means by saying that " Darksteel Colossus is bad in monoblue.  You have no realistic ways to get rid of the fucker" What does he mean get rid of him?
 I thought that the question was if is a good idea to INCLUDE him in the deck and to RUN him with Tinker, not if Monoblue is weak VS him!

if you dont run brainstorm and draw into a Colossus without anyway to put him back into your deck with a shuffle effect, you're fucked for the game since that's your win condition.

[+t]

Oh, I see.

The point is that DSC costs 11 mana.  There are few times when you will be able to realisticly cast him from your hand before you'll be in a position for it to matter, even with Drain mana.  Thus, DSC will simply be a dead card in your hand if you draw it.

"Getting rid of it" would mean getting it out of your hand, a la Brainstorming+FetchShuffling it back into your library, or TFKing it into your graveyard, which would in turn trigger its ability, causing it to go back into your library.

As Kowal has explained, neither method is optimal in this deck, thus DSC isn't the optimal Tinker target for MUC.

However, Tinker is still powerful enough to warant running.  

The answer to this is to simply play a more castable fatty.  This is very meta dependent, but good ideas are Trike, Platinum Angel and Duplicant.  These cards cost 6-7 mana, which allow you to realiably cast them them with Drain mana.

Hope this helps.

[Kowal]

Trike is the most realistic, but Sundering Titan is a better Tinker target.  It even kills a basic to keep them locked under B2B better.

That said, I don't like either very much.

[jackpot]

more win conditions to consider:
Wand of the elements
tap-sac an island put a 2/2 blue elemental token creature into play with flying.
tap-sac a mountain put a 3/3 red elemental token into play.
This should speed up the kill a lot. A swarm of 2/2 flyers in a few turns with Ophidians doing their thing is a very tough lock to get out of. What I like about the wand is that you just tap it for free. no acticvation cost. 4 mana is a bit pricey. For the same price you could go w/ masticore, which may be a better idea anyways. How about 1 masticore and 1 wand? I'd go 2 Masticore 2 Wand. mmmm maybe three Masticore and 1 wand. Oh, I don't know. The wand has potential. Masticore is better than Trike. He sticks around.

Sererdib Djinn is only 2UU to cast and is a 5/6 flyer. You've got to sac a land during your upkeep, however. I guess this doesn't exactly combo w/ the wand. hur hur. If you sac n island it does 3 damage to you. Oh well. At that point you're winning anyways and should have some non island lands around. An extremely effecieant creature.

Kira glass spinner is basically untargetable and would make your phids almost untargetable too.

Soramaro, first to dream would be friggin huge if you've got phids running-and you can draw even more cards off him. He flys too. 4UU is tough, however, but does it matter at that point in the game? I must confess, this one I like the most. That's all for now.

[DeMarki]

more win conditions to consider:
Wand of the elements
tap-sac an island put a 2/2 blue elemental token creature into play with flying.
tap-sac a mountain put a 3/3 red elemental token into play.
This should speed up the kill a lot. A swarm of 2/2 flyers in a few turns with Ophidians doing their thing is a very tough lock to get out of. What I like about the wand is that you just tap it for free. no acticvation cost. 4 mana is a bit pricey. For the same price you could go w/ masticore, which may be a better idea anyways. How about 1 masticore and 1 wand? I'd go 2 Masticore 2 Wand. mmmm maybe three Masticore and 1 wand. Oh, I don't know. The wand has potential. Masticore is better than Trike. He sticks around.

Sererdib Djinn is only 2UU to cast and is a 5/6 flyer. You've got to sac a land during your upkeep, however. I guess this doesn't exactly combo w/ the wand. hur hur. If you sac n island it does 3 damage to you. Oh well. At that point you're winning anyways and should have some non island lands around. An extremely effecieant creature.

Kira glass spinner is basically untargetable and would make your phids almost untargetable too.

Soramaro, first to dream would be friggin huge if you've got phids running-and you can draw even more cards off him. He flys too. 4UU is tough, however, but does it matter at that point in the game? I must confess, this one I like the most. That's all for now.

Excuse me guys but all the above-mentioned creatures are CRAP in comparison to Morphling itself. I don't understand how you try to prove that Morphling is crap by suggesting worse winning conditions than him! Would you really run these in a Tournament over a pair of Morphlings? Is a 5/6 Djinn which forces you to sac lands better? Ok if you hate Morphling so much and try to prove yourselves that he just isn't worth it anymore then fine, but at least be reasonable.

The point is that DSC costs 11 mana.  There are few times when you will be able to realisticly cast him from your hand before you'll be in a position for it to matter, even with Drain mana.  Thus, DSC will simply be a dead card in your hand if you draw it.

"Getting rid of it" would mean getting it out of your hand, a la Brainstorming+FetchShuffling it back into your library, or TFKing it into your graveyard, which would in turn trigger its ability, causing it to go back into your library.

As Kowal has explained, neither method is optimal in this deck, thus DSC isn't the optimal Tinker target for MUC.

Ok I agree, but who said not to run Brainstorms and Fetchlands?

[+t]

Fetches should be run.

Brainstorm isn't good in a deck which plans on resolving Chalice for 1.  This is one of the main reasons Impulse is run over Brainstorm.

edit: I agree on the win conditions.  Wand might be a meta choice if you know you aren't going to be facing lots of Null Rod.  Wand sounds like technology with Cow, which goes along further with the deck's idea of mana denial, and ensures you get one land drop a turn (Striplands and Fetchlands).  Maybe I'm just being cute here.  Has anyone tried Cows in Mono-Blue?

A win condition I'm really partial to is Meloku.  It is a perfect Drain sink, and it is semi-untargetable (via tokens). 

[DeMarki]

Brainstorm isn't good in a deck which plans on resolving Chalice for 1.  This is one of the main reasons Impulse is run over Brainstorm.

I run 4 Brainstorms over Impulse even with 4 Chalices main, do you want to know why?
1) Cause I really want to play Brainstorm on turn one to set up turn 2, if I draw only one Island, or need a Force of Will for a quick responce, Brainstorm helps a lot but Impulse is useless. Once Ophidians start drawing I don't really care, but the first turns are crucial and Brainstorm must be part of them.
2) Sometimes putting 3 cards on bottom of your library sucks and it maight cost you games.
3) I don't care if a Chalice cuts some of my Brainstorms, it's the only cards in my deck with casting cost of 1 and it can be pitched to Force-Misdirection, so it's never a dead card.

Have you considered running Vedalken Shackles? This card was created for MUC and in a metagame full of creature based decks it definitely helps a lot!

[jackpot]

You are missing the point. The premise is that Ophidians are drawing yoou extra cards and you simply need a win condition at that point with a fistful of counters. Morphling is not a bad card at all. I was trying to think of cards that can win in a swift manner that have reasonalble casting costs. Morphling will take 4 turns to win if you pump it. Soramaro will most likely be at least a 7/7 at that point in the game. Probably even bigger. It is reasonable to win in three turns with this guy if not in two. Morphling never let you draw cards I'd like to point out, which is the point of the deck. Yes, morphling can be untargetable, but it won't matter at that point in the game anyways. Meloku is a good idea, and bringing four or five lands back to your hand shouln't screw you over late game.

I'm not so sure about COW in a MU deck. You could use it with fetches and strip/wastelands, but wouldn't playing with Thawing glaciers jsut be better? Anothert land that came to mind are Cephalid coliseum. You pay U when you have threshold and target player draws three cards then discards three. The only problem is that you have to take one damage when you tap it for U. Dust bowl would have no drawback with COW basically.

[+t]

Thawing Glaciers is by no means better than Crucible.  Glaciers only let you search for basics.  My point was that Cow could be used as further mana denial.

On second thought though,Cow doesn't seem like maindeck material.  Hell, most builds don't even run all 4 B2B main.  I'm not very familiar with Mono Blue in Type 1, but I'm not sure how relevant it would be to be able to replay fetches turn after turn.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Umm, since the whole Brainstorm questions came up, why is it that Mono U wants to set chalice to 1?  Why not set it to 0 or 2, or just not run it at all.  I don't know a whole lot about its purpose in MUC, so could someone please explain it to me? Thanx.

[+t]

I'm not sure that Mono-Blue wants to set COTV to 1.  In fact, 0-1 are the numbers that you probably want to set it at, depending on the matchup.

Chalice for 0 shuts down 6 cards nearly every deck plays: Lotus and Moxen.  Further, it shuts down less used accelaration like Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, and Mana Crypt. 

Chalice for 1 stops, well...Quite a few cards.  I'm not going to reiterate all of the things you can shut down, but suffice to say, there are a ton of utility cards in the 1 cmc slot.

Setting Chalice for 2 in this deck is stupid of you.  You lose some of your best tools: Drains, Leaks and Powder Keg (arguably your most versatile way to deal with permanents).

Setting Chalice for anything higher than 2 is unrealistic.

Chalice in the current metagame probably should be run as it helps shore up some things that Mono Blue needs help against.  Vial especially is quite nasty, and a Chalice for 1 going first is some good.

Of course, I'm not exactly sure how esential (as again, I'm not mquite familiar with the deck), as you're running quite a few counters, but theoretically its quite decent.

[Kowal]

It actually does come up from time to time where you set Chalice at 3, usually if you have already resolved Ophidian and are trying to cut people off from Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, and Thirst for Knowledge.

I've also used it to shut off Crucible of Worlds and keep Tog from resolving Deed, Tog, and Cunning Wish, effectively preventing them from being able to win.

That said, you set it at one whenever you get the opportunity.  Period.  On the play, I would seriously consider playing chalice 1 turn one even if I had ancestral in hand.

[Disburden]

Here's another biggie question for me that I'd like to ask about MONO-U.

Is it really needed to run 5 strip effects currently? What is everyone's current mana base?

I've been using Control Magic as a win condition, and it works incredibly well for me.


Edit: I should show my list just for everyone to compare game plans:

4 Ophidian

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Impulse
2 Misdirection

2 Control Magic
3 Back to Basics


4 Chalice of the Void
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol ring


1 Library of Alexandria
3 Delta
3 Strand
6 Island
1 strip mine
4wasteland

Im debating a lot over Strip effects and Powder Kegs at the moment. I Think Kegs would work well right now.

And, Kowal, what happened to the "super sexy tech" you would reveal at the end of August? Damn WoW.

[elias]

I'm just thinking, would an imperial plate be worth a slot in URPhid or MonoBlue? Since most of you are running Phid as the win condition, wouldn't a phid wearing the plate be a faster clock, especially with a full grip?

Then again, Jitte does more things.

[Moxlotus]

Those would be win-more cards.  They don't actually do anything until you are about to win the game.

[tradewhore]

I would consider running Tradewind Riders in the Sideboard as more of a control base. I know it is fr fetched but long term with the right combo of cards could really control a deck.

[Sgt. Pepper]

K, so after reading the entire thread I came to the following conclusions:

- Morphling, or any other kill except Ophidian or Control Magic/Shackles sucks.
- Ophidian is the one true draw engine for this deck.
- Brainstorm is bad if you play with COTV.
- Impulse, while not great, is still your best bed if you play with COTV.
- Back to Basics is thé reason to run this deck.

Acknowledging that, I think this is an accepted start for a mono blue deck:

-4 Ophidian

-4 Force of Will
-4 Mana Drain
-4 Mana Leak
-3 Back to Basics
-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Impulse
-1 Ancestral Recall
-1 Time Walk

-5 Mox-en
-1 Black Lotus
-5 Fetch-land
-8 Island

This leaves us with about 5-6 lands, and 6-7 other cards too fill. This is also where my questions come in:

- Is it worth it to splash for another color?
     *White= Balance + Decree + Sacred Ground + StP + Disenchant (for example)
     *Red= Fire/Ice + Gorilla Shaman + Rack and Ruin + Pyroclasm + ReB (for example)
- Is Strip Mine + Wasteland worth it? It seems like it would, since already run a lot of basics, it gives you an out to Bazaar and helps with the mana denial theme of the deck.
- If we're not going to splash a for a color, which removal cards should be used. Realistically We have Shackles, Control Magic, Keg and perhaps Triskelion. Which is better?
- Is there room for bounce so we can deal with an Akroma or DSC?
- What about other typical blue cards like Misdirection, Counterspell, Mystical Tutor and Library of Alexandria? Do we need any of those?
- Also, to be perfectly sure, is Meloku any good? I know its been said that we don't need another finisher, but I just can't help asking given my fantastic experience with Meloku in T2.

[Binary]

- Is it worth it to splash for another color?
     *White= Balance + Decree + Sacred Ground + StP + Disenchant (for example)
     *Red= Fire/Ice + Gorilla Shaman + Rack and Ruin + Pyroclasm + ReB (for example)

Not really. Splashing another color messes up your mana: either you need to fetch a basic that isn't an Island, or you have to play a non-basic that gets locked down by your own B2B.

- Is Strip Mine + Wasteland worth it? It seems like it would, since already run a lot of basics, it gives you an out to Bazaar and helps with the mana denial theme of the deck.

Despite running B2B, yeah, you want these. Stuff like Bazaar, Library, and Academy need to be dealt with sooner rather than later, and it can help you survive the early game until you can get a B2B with backup out.

- If where not going to splash a for a color, which removal cards should be used. RRealistically We have Shackles, Control Magic, Keg and perhaps Triskelion. Which is better?

I really like Keg, personally. It does a great job of beating up on bad aggro decks that lean on 1 and 2 cc creatures. Does a decent number on Fish if they don't already have a Null Rod out as well.

- Is there room for bounce so we can deal with an Akroma or DSC?

Probably looking at either a Chain of Vapor or maybe an AEther Spellbomb. Yeah, you might be able to cram a couple in somewhere... and that's advisable because Oath can be a pretty rough matchup for this deck.

- What about other typical blue cards like Misdirection, Counterspell, Mystical Tutor and Library of Alexandria? Do we need any of those?

Misdirection depends on the meta... the scrubbier the meta, the more useful Misdirection is because you'll have stuff like Lightning Bolt and Hymn to Tourach to target. In powered metas you're probably going to be relegated to using it as a "pitch counter" in a counter war or trying to steal an Ancestral Recall.

- Also, to be perfectly sure, is Meloku any good? I know its been said that we don't need another finisher, but I just can't help asking given my fantastic experience with Meloku in T2.

YMMV, but I've generally found the tempo loss of having to bounce my land to be frustrating. There is one potential upside to him, and that's bouncing your strips back to your hand if an opportunity to use them has presented itself.

[Disburden]

Just to bump you all on the topic because Kowal's secret tech Mono U list will be up on the next daily SCG article he writes.

I believe he called it Megaman, which rocks, because MegaMan rocks.

[AnarchyB52]

ive been playtesting my version which i call MegaB thats just me..

ive been playing with Jitte..it turns ophidian into a quick kill and can kill welders and even keep you in the game

i also play Iso Septer..Impulse on a stick..for added card draw..or Mana drain on a stick for more control

ive also tested ninja of deep hours in the deck..i play 2 of them right now along with 4 ophidians because they actually kill while do the same thing ophidian does for just 1 more.

another card i want to try out is intuition along with acumulate knowledge as the decks draw engine..so i can put a knowledge on a Iso and draw 4 cards a turn...sounds good to me...but thats jsut me

[ELD]

Everyone here knows that Jitte doesn't do anything if phid is drawing cards right?  It deals no combat damage.  If you wanted to run Gawd Awful cards in a creature light deck, even Sword of Fire and Ice would atleast allow you to keep drawing cards while you do damage.  But come on, that's the worst plan I've ever heard. 

[AnarchyB52]

jitte kills multiple things
it wins the control slaver match up if they manage to resolve a welder
sword of fire and ice....ehe...its not a jitte

i personally do like ninja of deep hours though in this deck..
it actually kills!!!
were phid kinda......
almost 75% of the time the jitte ends up on a ninja anyways....
because a ninja swinging for 6 and drawing you a card isnt good wtf am i talking about!?!?

[Revvik]

jitte kills multiple things
it wins the control slaver match up if they manage to resolve a welder
sword of fire and ice....ehe...its not a jitte

i personally do like ninja of deep hours though in this deck..
it actually kills!!!
were phid kinda......
almost 75% of the time the jitte ends up on a ninja anyways....
because a ninja swinging for 6 and drawing you a card isnt good wtf am i talking about!?!?

Too mana intensive.  Even if you Mana Drain something large enough to power out a Ninja of the Deep Hours, you'd have to wait - and that's time spent where an Ophidian could keep drawing you cards.  Ophidian may not deal damage while drawing you cards, but you don't need to - you'll probably be winning after turn 20 anyways.
Intuition / Accumulated Knowledge is also not the way to go, because you'd require about 7 slots to run it.
Either:
Mystical Tutor
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge

or:
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
and no way to fetch the fourth AK if you didn't already have it in hand.
You could use a tutor-base of Merchant Scrolls, but then why not play Meandeck Gifts instead, which has better uses for Merchant Scroll.

Jitte is bad because you need a certain ratio of creatures in the deck in order to keep equipment from being a dead draw.
I'd highly suggest taking a look at Kowal's list on his daily articles - it has some unorthodox card choices, which is probably what MonoBlue needs in order to win.

[AnarchyB52]

ninja isnt mana intensive and in my opinion is a far better kill then half the stuff suggest above..
it cost 1B which isnt bad..it has instant speed and it is uncounterable when u use his special to play him.

i usually just bounce an unblocked phid

and it kills in 3 turns usually
not 10 or 20

ninja + Jitte = 6 damage a turn

[Revvik]

So I'll assume you're talking a configuration of:
4 Ophidian
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Umezawa's Jitte

That's 8 creatures that aren't enough to optimize the use of that Umezawa's Jitte, which is also an unnecessary card in this deck: If Ophidian hits a player, you are already winning.  Jitte will not help you recover from an active Goblin Welder on Control Slaver's side of the field because Ophidian will never connect with the opponent while holding the Jitte. 

You're thinking about this the wrong way - you don't need to deal 6 damage a turn, or have a fast clock.  No matter which clock you choose, you will never race your opponent to 20 points.

Ninja IS mana intensive, and that's what you don't see.  In order for Ninja to cost you 1U, you have to have already invested 2U in Ophidian.  Since you've done that and are swinging unblocked with Ophidian, why not just let HIS ability resolve and draw the card instead of devoting your mana to a creature that does the same thing.

And Jitte is trash.  MonoBlue is not an aggressive strategy at all - Powder Keg does just as good if not a BETTER job at negating Goblin Welder than Umezawa's Jitte does, and at the same cost.  And Vedalken Shackles does a better job than both, although it's probably not worth letting one resolve just to steal it.