5-color 7/10 split

[Arvid]

Need some constructive criticism on a deck I've been tinkering with:


Mana

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
8 SoLoMoxenCrypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Gilded Lotus

[30]


Creatures

4 Goblin Welder
2 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
1 Memnarch

[9]


Broken/Utility/the rest

1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Seal of Cleansing

1 Memory Jar
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction

[21] [Totally 60]


Sideboard [preliminary, meta call anyway]

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Duplicant
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Trinisphere
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Rule of Law


Most of the stuff are selfexplanatory. Playing 5-c for good tutors and broken stuff, playing specific answers instead of FoW's because I like it more (not 100% sure that it's actually better, please fill me in, although it's not card disadvantage as FoW).

[NastyNate]

I tried this out before, but it always felt like cerebral assassin was just better at doing the same things. Eventually I abandoned my Foil S-Chinese gilded loti in favor of a more stable mana base and smaller threats like juggernauts. After testing you'll end up either playing 5/3 or cerebral assassin over this.

Not that 7/10 is bad; there are just always consistency issues, when playing a deck that heavily relies on a five casting cost mana source.

[Marton]

I have tried that too. The big problem I was having is that gemstone mines have lost me quite a few games, so you end up getting force to play 2x crucible at a minimum. Then you play 4x city of brass, which does add up damage, when you only have 2x city in your starting hand (particularly if you play against tendrils: every life counts). Yes, I had to give up on my 4x 8th edition foil city of brass (which are sooo much better looking than DCI).

At one point I started cutting colored spells and noticed that all I had left out of my 5 colors were 3 spells that were neither blue, red or black. I ended up trying duals/fetchs (like 2/3x fetch only), which I am happy with. The biggest downside is the lack of ray of revelation in the sidebord, but otherwise the 'loss' isn't that big.

And you ought to try out karn in this deck. Gilded lotus and karn are a real threat, almost in the same way that sundering titan can be (both blow up mana to your opponent and are big).

[49 Cents]

You might want to look into Intuition. Itˇs really good with a welder of with a crucible to search a strip, a academy and something random to win the game..

Funny is that my decklist is almost exact the same, exept for the fact that I play Intuition and no maindeck StPs or seals..

Greetz,

Hugo

[crazzykid81083]

#1 I would add DSC just beasty your running awall artifacts and tinker.
#2 Take the advise given earlier and runn at least 2 intuition.
#3 In my opinion I would take out the swords and seals add 3 cunning wish and you have an open spot for at least the DSC.

[Arvid]

@NastyNate:

I might try out CA (to see if it's funny and/or good), however replacing one deck with another one is not really constructive criticism (almost off-topic, no?). However, you might have a point in that the deck relies too much in Gilded Lotus, but if you should address this problem without suggesting me to change deck totally, how would you do that?

@49 Cents/crazzykid81083:

Isn't Intuition too conditional? They're almost dead if you don't have a Goblin Welder or Crucible of Worlds! Ofcourse, they'll always net you one card, but playing it for 3 x Welder or for something like Tinker/Ancestral/Memory Jar looks just bad to me. Though, I'm very open for changes so please prove me wrong.

[warble]

I hate to see utility in an aggressive deck like 7/10.  Seal of Cleansing?  Explain how this will ever be better then something like duplicant or platinum angel or heck even memnarch if you're going off the deep end (ha ha it's maindecked in your list).
My two points on this are:
1)  You don't have mana problems.  You can easily place a 6 or 7 cost artifact in a 2 cost colored spot.  You reserve those slots for tutors, draw power, maybe even a hard counter or two.
2)  You are being a traitor to your gameplan when you play Seal.  Yes, it's great to have this answer "technically" but in a tournament, let's say you draw a hand of 2x Workshop and 1x Seal of Cleansing and have the (rather typical for workshop decks) problem of finding colored mana.  Or your colored mana gets wasted (you know that will happen a lot running 5color, as that is your greatest weakness).  So you've just cost yourself the entire hand if you don't have any fatties, and even if you do have one fatty are you going to keep with only one titan and risk walking it straight into force or even worse drain?  7/10 worked off the aggression provided by Trinisphere.  Titan + Trinisphere almost always beats for the win.  However, without this lock's presence, you don't want to turn into a control deck, you want to go even further towards the aggro tip.  Whether that is replacing seal with some bounce spells like truth and more bombs, or gravitating towards stax lists with Smokestack and 2 more Crucibles is up to you.  The real issue is you have full acceleration, 4x Chalice, and for some reason think that will perform the same role as Trinisphere.  It won't, it can't, and you're living in the past if you hope to perform the same gameplan with 7/10 as it is no longer available.  Seal is fine when locking down the opponent, but you lost the lock dude.  I would argue your opponent could take an artifact/enchantment of theirs and throw it in the garbage during the midgame and not care.  They're expecting stax-like locks, this soft lock crud with a few utility pieces is feeding time for CS, Gifts, Goblins, hey I'd even take my r/g beats over this 7/10.

[ctthespian]

@NastyNate:

I might try out CA (to see if it's funny and/or good), however replacing one deck with another one is not really constructive criticism (almost off-topic, no?). However, you might have a point in that the deck relies too much in Gilded Lotus, but if you should address this problem without suggesting me to change deck totally, how would you do that?

@49 Cents/crazzykid81083:

Isn't Intuition too conditional? They're almost dead if you don't have a Goblin Welder or Crucible of Worlds! Ofcourse, they'll always net you one card, but playing it for 3 x Welder or for something like Tinker/Ancestral/Memory Jar looks just bad to me. Though, I'm very open for changes so please prove me wrong.

I have to agree with Arvid intuition isn't that great without welder.  However CA abused intuition with Squee/Bazaar and the fact that it ran animates to ensure welders were in play.  It was like playin 8 goblin welders.

[the boogie man]

if you want an update on thyis, ask angry pheldagrif for his gilded claw, which is basically a decked out 7/10 split. I hope he responds to this, because I am interested in what he has done with the deck thus far.

[Lunar]

as an avid sundering titan fan I can say from experience that 5c mana bases for 7/10 isnt so hot...after much testing my teams favorite version was the UR version with fetches and brainstorms in addition to 3 thirst for knowledges (or in my more extreem version it ran 1 thirst and 2 intuitions...but that was an extreem build that bordered on gilded claw ((before gilded claw was released)) and it even ran mindslaver in the memnarch slot to abuse crucible/slaver/seat of the synod recursion....)

Cerebral assasin is just better...I took 5th last weekend at the Eudemonia Black Lotus tourney (43 players... www.eudemonia.net/p9 for my list, titled brain rapist) it more consistantly plays turn 2 or 3 sundering titans and plays around mana drain much more efficiently...its only trickey part is that its mana base is even more volatile than 7/10s and is much more vulnerable to wasteland and pithing needle, but your switching out the terrible gilded lotus for uncounterable draw in the form of bazaar...not a bad switch...

One of the early things I did with my 7/10 builds was drop to 2 lotuses though...I had found myself siding out the third lotus in a number of games so the switch was logical...the mana base still worked with only 2...the point many of the games was to turn 1 welder into turn 2 thirst or intuition for titan or whatever other threat then weld it in...this was another nod in seat of the synods direction as a 1 or 2 of since it is a weldable artifact that gets around chalice on 0...

Intuition as a 1 or 2 of in the deck isnt a card to be used for card advantage and only used for tutoring power in bad situations where you just have nothing else...what intuition does however is win you games many turns ahead of when you might have won the game...this is exceptionally important in todays meta where decks like gifts can sit around and do nothing until they need to and then just win...thirst into some card advantage but not a win is bad in these cases...intuition into titan titan memnarch or titan titan slaver or early crucible slaver SotS are all win conditions though...in testing the deck needed these win conditions to happen NOW often rather than later...since the deck is more limited in its disruption this timing issue is pretty important...back in 4xTrinisphere days you could afford to wait around an extra turn or two to win since decks were set up to battle out longer games where mana was hard to get too, when you have 4 turns to fight juggernaughts you have time...when you have 1 turn to deal with DSC from gifts or tendrils from gifts then you need to win now, not 3 turns later...

As to the guy who just posted like 2 seconds ago....AngryPheldagrif is banninated from here still I think, so to ask you would have to check on starcitygames where he posts regularly...

[Arvid]

The Gilded Claw:

Mana (27):
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Darksteel Ingot
3 Gilded Lotus

Major threats:
2 Sundering Titan
1 Pentavus
2 Memnarch

Moderate threats:
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere

Minor/utility threats:
4 Su-Chi
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Goblin Welder

Business:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Intuition


I don't think this deck addresses the problems mentioned with this deck. It still relies to heavily on Gilded Lotus, actually it plays 3 less mana. It has cut white for more FAT making it - better? I'm really looking into cutting white and black and playing a more old school-ish U/R version, will this make Gilded Lotus less of a clunky card?